My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Hmm, might be a bad guess though since WC hated Boulder 2060 and 3060 old like 2060 and probably more of same. So that’s probably not correct after all. My original guess was D’Ag Relentless but I think that only monoblocks and WC said stereo amp, so don’t think that can be it. Maybe Gryphon Apex if it is out |
You seemed to have had a bit of an “ah hah!” moment in PR when experiencing the profound effect the room can have on a system. You looked somewhat surprised. I was a professional musician for many years and I learned that the (theoretically) best acoustic guitar in a sh*t room didn’t sound as good as a $1000 guitar in a great acoustic space. So from a listener’s standpoint, which guitar was better? Makes you reevaluate your opinions sometimes. |
Very important fact and interesting post for me... I predicted that in my first post here but apparently for some members here i was distracting the thread away from the "tasting" sessions discussions...I dont speak about Jay here... Acoustic is the way and key, not price tag.... Unamplified "timbre" is the only ruler to evaluate a system, the others acoustic cues comes after, like imaging, listener envelopment and dynamic... Dont be afraid i will vanish...
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Just to clarify- I never meant to imply that cheaper gear is better and the high-priced stuff is a rip off. Not at all. I was just trying to point out that evaluating and comparing audio equipment is not as simple as owning it and listening to it in your room. Makes you think of the issues designers face when they design products that will be used in totally unknown acoustic spaces and in combination with unknown equipment. I wonder what Jay’s opinion of the Wilson speakers in PR would be had he only heard them in PR, as opposed to his opinion of the same speaker in his room. So many variables at work. |
This video is 40 minutes long. It is great content that I hope people learn something from. Should you be trusting reviewers that have no dedicated rooms? Should a reviewer with a huge following cashing big checks from YouTube spend money in a good room? This is a very controversial topic. Don’t miss it! It's common sense: if you have a big following and are making money hand over first, YOU MUST HAVE A DEDICATED ROOM or else you're clearly not a serious audiophile. |
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A dedicated room is not a room where someone put an audio system...
A dedicated room is a room ACOUSTICALLY dedicated and acoustically tuned for a specific system and for some ears... Then it is impossible to be familiar with a room in the acoustical meaning of the word "familiar" if you dont have tuned this room and explored all his transformative possibilities and impediments by acoustic experiments... My only discovery in audiophile experience, is not the gear...buying and plugging is easy if we can afford it ...But tuning a room for the system is the way how to learn the room and the system relation ...Acoustic optimization is mandatory... And a dedicated room is the only absolute luxury necessity in audio.... I dont say it is impossible to create a great system in a living room , i say that it is more difficult... Jay is right and OCD mike is here...
By the way there is NO RELATION in S.Q. between the same gear put in a living room without acoustic optimization and the same gear put in a room specifically tuned for it... NONE.... It is a complete transformation like starting from a caterpillar to a buttterfly... Guess why most people dont know that? They put their gear in a non acoustically non dedicated room most of the times and the higher it cost the more they call it an audiophile experience... In truth the more costly device in audio most of the times must be the room...... Sound is first an acoustic experience and lived event which is used and treated in some perspective by the recording engineer with his own choices and trade-off and this recording event must be conveyed to you and TRANSLATED acoustically in your room...Not reproduced which is impossible but translated... You dont listen to an amplifier, you listen to the amplifier/speakers/ROOM tuned chain... And the last link is the most important one because it is a link specifically tuned to optimize all the piece of gear ideally for your own specific ears... Guess why my 500 bucks system dont sound like a 500 bucks one? You can laugh but i laugh last.... |
By the way i am not stupid and i dont pretend that a low cost system become a high end system by acoustic miracles.. But i pretend that ANY system is acoustically miraculously transformed from a caterpillar to a butterfly accordingly to his own design electronic qualities potential... Acoustic means more than price tag at the end though ....it is the reason why comparing gear in a room which is not dedicated not only to music but to the specific system is meaningless.. Any reviewer must compared two system IDEALLY in their own tuned room... Which is an impossible task when you want to compared many amplifiers.... This is the reason why i read about acoustic not about the gear publicity ....It is way more easy to buy a relatively good amplifier at all cost than installing it in his rightful embedding working dimension which acoustic is the main important one... Acoustic is the sleeping princess and all the pieces of gear are the seven working dwarves, nothing more... 😁😊 my best to all and i apologize for my unwanted rant here... I go back to my low cost hole....Room.... |
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Yes my Sansui is recapped and cleaned...I own the AU 7700 and one of the alpha series also...I also cleaned my house electrical grid and control vibrations/resonance with my own devices with great results.... And almost everyone can distinguish differences between any piece of gear in any non dedicated room...Almost everyone with ears... This trivial common place fact dont contradict the ESSENTIAL fact that the peak working potential of any audio system cannot be experienced in bad acoustic conditions AT ALL... And any ordinary non acoustically treated and especially non mechanically controlled room is very bad acoustic condition, sorry... And this is not a trivial common place fact like saying that 2 amplifiers sound different in any place...For sure gear sound different in any place... 😁😊 but an optimal potential working is not a mere difference only... Reviewers sells...Nothing else...They are biased to sell somthing... Some like Jay try to be honest and succeed... The proof is right here ... Who is the rare reviewer to admit that acoustic superseed his own costly system right now and admit he was wrong underestimating acoustic ? Jay did this.... It is the reason why he is the only reviewer i read or listen to ... Honesty and humbleness... Read acoustic not reviewer it will help like ithelp me to enjoy music at the end with no frustration at all about costly high end system ... By the way Jay is not so much a reviewer fir me , he is an audiophile describing his own journey and not only comparing piece of gear to sell them... This is the reason i read him....Honesty.. I am interested by him not by the gear he speak about ... I cannot afford it and I dont need to upgrade anyway even if i could i will not do it guess why?.... 😁😊
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Really good video Jay...a lot of food for thought. Definitely know the reviewer's reference point. What gear does he / she own, and have owned. Do they have a background in music, electronics, acoustics etc...As far as reviewers having dedicated listening rooms, I have heard some god-awful dedicated listening rooms. I have also heard some fantastic dedicated listening rooms and really great living room systems too. Dedicated or not, it's what you do to the room that matters. |
I like the videos Jay does with OCD. I think they’re also good for Mikey, as he seems to come off better when he interfaces with another person as opposed to being left to his own devices. IMO. I think the dedicated room argument has merit, but to me, the most important aspect of music reviewers is for the end user to find reviewers whose tastes align with their own. Like with restaurant reviewers. If you hear a review about the place and love it, I don’t care if the reviewer lives in a cardboard box and eats spagettios every day. I used to like Sam Tellig myself. He liked stuff that was on the smooth/musical side and I purchased several items he reviewed. |
Listened to a $100,000 plus system in the same room on two different occasions. Once with acoustic treatments placed by an industry professional with proper room testing, measuring devices and the like. Took it all down and the music sounded better. It just did. I have had dedicated rooms with all manner of acoustic treatments and my current living room with two diffusion treatments sounds far better. Also had another interesting experience this past month. I first placed my speakers far away from room boundaries and did all I could to remove the room’s impact on the sound. Sounded great. I then placed my Fyne F704 speakers in the room corners just one foot from the side walks and some 4 feet from the wall behind them. Strong toe in. The room was more at play now influencing the sound far more. Guess what? It sounds even better this way. I can confidently say acoustic treatments are not always needed and won’t always sound better. I can also say acoustic treatments can indeed help improve the sound of your system. No broad brush answer or absolutes here. Depends on the room and your furnishings etc… Don’t accept any “common wisdom” and simply experiment on your own. Trust your ears and preferences. I have noticed that absorption panels often hurt the sound. This has been experienced in my last two rooms. I no longer use them, but instead use a bit of diffusion on the front wall. This is only my experience and you may find them advantageous. Again, it all depends on your particular space, furnishings, gear and sonic preferences.
A dedicated room is not always better sounding. An acoustically treated room is not always better sounding. Real fine sounding systems do reside in shared living spaces. Also, treated dedicated rooms can also sound absolutely stunning. Your mileage will vary on this so experiment for yourself!
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whooooaaaa, well, well... look at this! The thread was DEAD and now it is starting to take off again. It appears to me that a little controversy, drama, etc is just what people need from time to time. To address the comments above, I was very clear and still stand behind what i said: IF YOU ARE A YOUTUBER AND THIS IS YOUR 9-5, A DEDICATED ROOM IS A MUST. I never said this applies to you folks who are hobbyist and have regular jobs. I started this in my living room (as mrdecibel said) and was able to gather enough funds to build a dedicated room once i became more serious about it. I have been vocal about this: I DO NOT DO THIS 100% (FULL TIME) I need health insurance, 401k, etc, etc, but i treat it as if it was a full time job because I work my @$$ off doing content, driving far to pick up equipment, spending ridiculous amounts of money to present to you some of the finest electronics available today. I wear many hats:
It is not easy to do what I do (try it and see how much fun it is). I will definitely continue to voice my opinion (this is all subjective) because people want to know my deepest thoughts about many different subjects. Lots of people were sending me links to the video that was made about someone calling out reviewers who are not ready to review speakers because reviewers sometimes don’t have the proper room - so I responded. Differences of opinion are a real thing in everyday life. Often times people just want an opinion about a component and these opinions can be had from anyone at your local best buy or even your local grocery store, but if you want QUALIFIED OPINIONS on equipment then that is A WHOLE DIFFERENT animal. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide which opinion you are looking for.
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Jay, you may be off on this one. Cannot make a blanket claim on a dedicated room being a must for best sound quality. It depends is the very most one can say. Too many space, gear, furnishing and subjective preference considerations.
Opinions from anyone, regardless of experience level and room used, is just a starting place. It won’t necessarily translate to another space or sonic preference. One must, in the end, play and test in their own space. Folks like Jim Smith have loads of experience and I listen particularly carefully to them. However, they deliver a great starting place and I must then test and experiment in my own space. |
People dont realize the complexity of acoustics... For sure some living room system with no acoustic treatment and no acoustic controls could sound acceptable even good... That is not my point... At all...
My point is optimization of any audio system to transform it from a beautiful caterpillar to a wonderful butterfly NEED and ask for embeddings controls of the mechanical, electrical and ESPECIALLY acoustical dimensions... There is no exceptions so good your system is in a living room with or without embeddings controls... Acoustic AND HIS RELATION TO PSYCHO-ACOUSTIC is too complex for most people to figure out anyway without studying basic, they think that putting panels somewhere is enough.... The goal is not neutralizing the SMALL room but adapting the room to your audio system and specific speakers and to your specific ears...A small room is not an amphiteater...In an amphiteater the time and timing dont play the same role at all than in a 13 feet room where only one person and two listen music likemine... And there is all other rooms between this 2 extreme size...Acoustic devices and controls will differ... In acoustic there is small room and big room and there is a huge difference between the two when it comes to treatment and control.... But in the two cases the acoustic is mandatory and more easy and sometimes possible only in a dedicated room... But we can enjoy music in some living room without acoustic for sure.... But dont think that your beautiful caterpillar never mind the cost has metamorphosed in a butterfly because you think so or claim so... Dont ask me.... Ask someone owning a high end system and a highly acoustically designed and controlled room what is the more important the brand name of his gear or the dedicated room ? Ask him..... 😁😊 Ask him why he paid more for the room than for the speakers or more than ever the audio system cost itself ? Acoustician cost big money ... i experimented myself for 2 years it is the reason why i know the little i know... |
I understand completely. Your comments can apply and yield better sonic results in a given room, or not! Depends on the variables I already outlined. Ask me what’s more important gear or room? The answer is it depends. Been there, done this listening and experimenting for decades. No ONE answer applies universally unfortunately. |
Sorry but the fact that some system sound "good" in a living room without even acoustic method being used is one thing, which i dont negate at all, BUT An acoustical OPTIMIZATION process of the system is ANOTHER thing, a completely different fact... Confusing the two with a relativization conclusion to suit our "taste" is a sophism negating the OBJECTIVE power of acoustic ...By the way there exist no "taste" in acoustic but only the history and specific ability and structure of each pair of ears/brain....Our ears are the last judge but our ears must be if not musically trained at least acoustically trained.... Three thousand years of acoustic history beginning with the Egyptian and after them the Greek using acoustic to change the properties of room or amphiteather is a fact, an optimization of the acoustic space which has notrhing to do with the satisfaction of some people in a non acoustically treated and uncontrolled room... Be logical....
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Another sophism... There is a difference in DEGREE yes between all systems acoustically treated or not... But with your sophism you negate the difference between a particular system submitted to the acoustic optimization process before and after , you cannot negate the difference between BEFORE and AFTER it...You cannot claim that some system exist WHICH WILL NEVER need acoustic optimization process because they seems to sound good for your taste in an uncontrolled room.... Acoustic is science and experiments not a taste... Acoustic is personal and collective history... This is your sophism... to be clear and for your sake: My system is a very low cost one and my room is completely controlled acoustically... There is a HUGE an astounding difference with the same gear i own between BEFORE and AFTER acoustic control... Is this acoustic successful control of mine is able to transform my audio system and put it on the same potential level than Jay costly high end one even if the system of Jay is in a non acoustically controlled room ? The answer is no... Acoustic dont transform magically low cost design in high end design... then dont confuse your relative experience with some systems in different state and rooms with the power of an optimization process linked in all case to the potential of very different systems... Optimization always beat by huge margin non optimization for ANY system... Comparing an optimized room/speakers like mine to Jays system few months ago EVEN in a non optimized acoustical condition WILL NOT PUT MY SYSTEM ON THE SAME LEVEL than his system ... Is it clear? 😁😊 Then we disagree .... I recognized that between different systems there MAY be a difference of degree ONLY...But for a specific system acoustic control induce a complete transformation and make this system able to reach his optimal working potential... It is not a degree difference here, it is a transformation... But so big the transformation is , this will not transform a vintage Sansui amplifier or my modest Mission Cyrus speakers into the same ball game than High end amplifier and speakers FOR SURE... Acoustic do miracles for a system, but dont transform pig into a beatiful girl....But magnificent pig exist so to speak.... 😁😊
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Sound and music are all about taste. Acoustic is a means to the end of enjoying music and subjective. Sometimes a room will measure better after optimization, but not sound as good to the listener. I have experienced this reality first hand. Acoustic control WILL NOT ALWAYS yield better subjective sound in every room. Not just a matter of math or science. Much more at play here. |
Sound and music are about taste AT THE END of a process not only from the beginning... Taste EVOLUTE...Tasting and learning to taste is a process...At the end it is an objective experience because it become a collective knowledgelike in acoustic and wines... It is called learning...Man is not a crocodile with innate taste...Man can work on himself...Or not.... Listening the same music all his life for example...Or be satisfied with a limited sound experience because he listen music never mind the sound and thats correct for sure...
This last remark reveal that you dont know the difference between acoustic and psycho-acoustic... Sorry... I never say that numbers and objective measures ONLY and MAINLY is the optimization process... i say that listenings experiments are... Why? Because in psycho-acoustic the EARS /BRAIN are judge, not because of our taste but because they directed and guide us in the EXPERIMENTS INCREMENTAL PROCESS in our own room...
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You are too smart for me @mahgister ! I am a simple man and learn from experience and intentional curiosity. Perhaps we are not communicating well. I bet a full conversation is more likely to produce some agreement and understanding. @rpeluso +1
I could not agree more. |
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All comments above are welcomed and appreciated 👍. I respect what you all believe in and I’m not trying to change anyone’s preferences. The Jay from 4 years ago that had neoliths in his living room would have been laughing at the Jay from today. I’ve transformed (as we all do) and I’m now looking back at my mistakes. Do you all remember my amps on the floor way back when? Do you remember me without bass traps in the corners? A lot has changed since then and I am getting ready to break the news of the next brand i am going to represent. If you ask WHY? simple: there is NOTHING LIKE IT and trust me I’ve tried a boat load of components that are aiming to do the same but can’t. I’m being strategic about what i want to put my name on. I’m not going to be a convenience store - selling beer, pizza, gas, Tylenol, etc etc. When i put my name on something, it will be because I’ve tried a ton and i keep going back to it. That said, i will STILL bring more gear in for review. I don’t represent Gryphon and yet i feel like a cheerleader for it? That goes to show you that even if i don’t represent something, i will give it props if they are well deserved. Mrdecibel, trying to do a YouTube channel at 68 is not a smart move. It will take a toll on you and it is A LOT of work. Don’t forget the commentary that is associated with each video. |
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MrDecibel said, "Dynamics, fast detailed transients and smooth natural decay ( what you hear at live, uncompressed, non amplified performances ), ime, can only be produced by horn loaded loudspeakers." I mostly agree, and that applies to loud SPL's especially. But for SPL's at 20-80 dB or so, electrostatics are king for resolution and fine detail. Horns are king among dynamic drivers. Avantgarde is my favorite low coloration horn speaker, although I haven't heard newer companies' horns. Horns allow low power amps, which are more likely to be SOTA than megawatt powerhouses with lots of parts. |
I guess I've even away from this thread too long but @jays_audio_lab are you now another on-line dealer pushing gear? |
I agree, you have been away far too long...circle back and watch my videos or read the thread. I write here and do content on YouTube. I don’t want keep repeating myself (it’s already too much to manage YouTube ). If people want to know what I’m doing all they gotta do is subscribe to my channel. Lastly, I feel like I’ve worked my @$$ off on here for over 5 years (it’s well documented here on this thread?) so if I feel like representing something i believe in then i will do exactly that. Why? Because it’s my journey and I am behind the steering wheel. I’ve done it ALONE, with zero sponsors so i don’t really have to explain myself? However, i still do it because I believe in transparency. My body of work is documented here throughout the 380 pages found on this thread. If my answer to your question above seems strong, it is because you came at me with a tone i didn’t like. |
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