My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

Congrats to dasign for being correct in all 3 videos on both the ID of SS and consistency in his preference for the SS.

Congrats to kren0006 for being consistent in his preference for tubes, although he and I both thought the slightly tubby bass of #2 on video 3 indicated that #2 was tubes, when it was actually SS.

Grey9hound did a diligent job in discovering that video 1 had a significant volume mismatch.  Since he likes warmer sound from most classic tube electronics and selects tube brands and dac chips with that type of sound, it is surprising that he consistently chose the SS on all 3 videos.  I made mistakes in the ID of 2 out of 3 videos, and I was inconsistent in my preferences for SS or VAC.

What may explain all these disparities?  We all agreed that both presentations were close, and the fact that Jay says that in his room, the differences are very significant, implies that YT videos are unreliable in telling the true differences that only Jay can appreciate.  Perhaps dasign listened through his dedicated audio system with precise volume matching, which enabled him to be the most consistent listener here.

It seems like VAC is one of the finest examples of tube technology.  At more modest price levels, tubes may have a much larger gap in performance than similarly priced SS.  I don't expect to find modestly priced tube electronics that offer the clarity of similarly priced SS.  

I also learned that these difficult A/B shootouts cannot be relied on as much as Jay's verbal descriptions of what he hears in his room.  I still think that larger differences such as between speakers can be meaningfully demonstrated on these videos.  I'll search for links of Jay's videos using his XLF and current Focal speakers on the same songs.

Thanks Jay for the experience.

@jays_audio_lab  Please let us know what tubes are in your VAC pre.

VAC tube sound is really special and I am not sure I love that sound or not.

What I know is that I love Audio research sound, the power amp.

I didn’t like soulution with vac.

But vac with Mephisto is spectacular... Mind blogging...

My other secret preamp and amp will also be impressive. I promise.

@viber6 Thank you for the compliments. I must admit that if I did not use my audio system with Tidal to compare tracks, I could have been fooled by some of the presentations. The first time I listened to video 1, I did not use to Tidal  and initially thought that I was listening to the VAC setup, since the voice of Chantal Chamberland track 'I put a spell on you' was really present.

Once I compared tracks with my SS gear at same acoustic levels, I realized that the presence in the voice/huge soundstage in presentation 1, was  part of the mixing decision process and concluded that I was listening to the Gryphon setup,  since very close to my gear.

On video 2, I really favored presentation 1 (Gryphon) since it basically sounded like my gear. Very dynamic guitar strings on presentation 1, when compared to presentation 2.

On video 3, I had to playback the tracks at least 3 times before concluding it was also SS. I tought the soundstage/voice in presentation 2 (Gryphon) was closer to my SS gear than presentation 1.

The hi end SS amplifier really go approach the tube sound in my opinion, and that is out of my prediction.

I guess I'm in the minority. I voted as follows:

Video 1 = 2

Video 2 = 2

Video 3 = 1 - This was a tougher call because I like some things the SS does but overall I like the Tubes as they are a bit more musical and seductive. The SS have more leading edge but can bite a bit in the vocals. Now, this is me listening through a laptop with AKG K533 Pro headphones. I make no assumption I'm anywhere close to what Jay is listening to in his room. But, it is also fairly easy to hear the difference between Tube and SS gear here. Not sure I'd pick the same in person though.

For those who think they can't hear a difference, get a good pair of headphones and listen and you will indeed hear differences.

Jay,

I listened to your final assessment again and re-read Mike Fremer's S-phile review of the VAC 452 IQ monos.  There was a clear majority of listeners here who preferred the SS combo over the VAC on all 3 videos.  Since most listeners here, esp grey9hound prefer warm sound over typical analytical SS, this suggests that your SS combo was perceived by this majority as warmer than the VAC.  Fremer wrote that his VAC was highly detailed and delicate, not at all like typical classic tube sound.  His ref SS amp, the Dartzeel, had more power and grunt in the bass, where his VAC was "polite." Also, the post on this page by runwell suggests that Audio Research is a more typical example of tube sound, whereas the extraordinary detail of VAC leans more to typical SS sound, with a bit of classic tube sweetness.

All this suggests that the VAC vs S 725/Mephisto mono comparison is best viewed as applying to those products only, and not as a generalized assessment of tubes vs SS.  An interesting comparison for tube lovers would be the lower power VAC 200IQ monos for $30K vs ARC tube amps for a comparable price.  Both would offer some sweetness, with that VAC perhaps offering more delicate detail and transient sparkle in the manner of some excellent SS.

What don't you like about S 725 + VAC amp?  My speculation--is this combo too bright or "in your face" for you?  Is the VAC preamp + Mephisto more laidback but with the bass power you like? 

pokey77,

I have several top headphones--AKG 1000 and 240, Beyerdynamic 880.  Any of these reveal much more bass information and extension than the computer speakers, but I find the headphone bass overwhelming.  The music sounds like an elephant dancing.  If I use several 50 cc cups around the edges of the phones to get my ears 1-2" away, I get a reasonably good tonal balance, although this is a crude solution.  The AKG 1000 is an interesting open design where you can vary the distance from your ears to the transducers, adjusting the bass to your preference.

@viber6 

Interesting observation on headphones and using cups to space them from your ears.

No synergy between vac and soulution. Probably bad mismatch from an impedance standpoint or something like that. 

Jay, 

I don't know what you mean by synergy.  I'll just repeat my question--"What don't you like about S 725 + VAC amp?  My speculation--is this combo too bright or "in your face" for you?  Is the VAC preamp + Mephisto more laidback but with the bass power you like?"  I'm just trying to understand what sound you like best, so I can get the most out of your evaluations.

Impedance mismatches are common between a tube preamp with its high output impedance and low input impedance of some SS amps.  But the S 725 has a low output impedance which would be compatible with almost any power amp.  If the ratio of input impedance of the amp, divided by the output impedance of the preamp is over 10, you are OK from a technical point of view.

pokey77,

Try cups of various sizes, or similar contraptions to get varying tonal balances.  You will look like a woman with curlers in her hair, but who cares--the sound is everything, LOL.  Or you can hold the earphone cushions away with your hands, but this gets tiring.  I gave up with all this.

Not surprising that you would prefer a VAC preamp and Gryphon amps vs. a Soolution preamp and VAC amps. Would be mind 'blowing' and nothing to do with blogging, unless you are determined to be a 'blogger'...LOL,

Yes! I agree. You can not said it is a tube vs SS comparison as VAC is not a classic tube sound, and in the market, it is not the popular one.

Audio research have more representative by far in my opinion.

My conclusions from the exercise are the following.

Prelims: As I indicated, I focused on what I determined initially to be the one most disparate sonic characteristic between the presentations, which for me was bass control. I chose not based on fullness or amount of bass, but on quality of bass, which for me meant tightness and control, and lack of tubbiness or looseness in the bass. Each time, tubby bass presentation was the losing presentation for me. I indicated that as the reason for choice on at least two maybe all three vids, and others concurred with reasoning. I did not struggle with the choice at all on Vid 1 or 2. Vid 3 was little tougher but only took two listens. Not too difficult.

Assumptions: Because of this narrow criteria and the reputations involved, I assumed that I was choosing SS.

Results: I had no difficulty choosing a consistent setup. 3 for 3 (or two for two on matching to a baseline if you prefer, but same difference under the limitations of trial)and I was fairly confident I hadn’t cross-selected. There is only a 12.5% chance I’d randomly have chosen those three choices based on my selection criteria, so that plus the relative ease with which I was able to choose (just one listen for two vids, two for third), allows me to virtually entirely discount any randomness in trial (for the level of precision we are dealing with here - this isn’t drug testing it’s audio hobby preference screening). As such, I must conclude either that VAC has better bass control than Gryphon/Soulution to my preferences, or that YT and/or my laptop/headphone setup is worthless as a comparison medium. Actually it wouldn’t be merely worthless, which would be random, it would be worse than worthless (actively misleading?) as it led me definitively to that conclusion. Anyway, gotta be one or other under constraints of exercise, I reckon

….. and/or WC’s recording microphone, should have added

The huge soundstage of the Gryphon/Solution is actually one of the reasons that I thought it was Tubes. I just did not want to say that, because I thought that was my secret to Identifying the VAC. Tubes are known to give a Huge Soundstage as compared to Solid State. It turns out that Gryphon/ Solution gives a Huge Soundstage also...Even bigger than the VAC.

It fooled me for sure 😮

kren0006,

Agree.  In particular, on video 3, we both found the bass slightly tubby for what was later revealed as S 725 + Mephisto.  There are a few ways to describe this.  Tubby, looser, less controlled, fuller.  For what was revealed as VAC, I found the string bass to be more plucky, and lighter with less body but more control.  The interesting thing is that these bass qualities of the VAC are closer to typical SS amps, whereas typical tube electronics tend to have the bass qualities we found for S 725 + Mephisto.  That explains how grey9hound consistently preferred the S 725 + Mephisto, which had the characteristics he likes about his tube electronics.

Since you preferred the VAC for all 3 videos, you might consider VAC 200 IQ monos for $30K vs comparable ARC tube amps.  Your top choice of Luxman is probably the best of all, since it combines the best aspects of SS and some sweetness of tubes.  I still think you should audition the LSA Voyager GaN at $3K, which has these general qualities.  Don't discount the LSA class D just because you didn't like my Rouge class D, an older module.  Use the LSA with a good passive control unit with a good volume control such as Luminous (or Luminance?) as used by mrdecibel, or your present preamp.

Another important lesson is that the only true way to evaluate anything is to use it in your home system for a period of time.  I have made mistakes trying to A/B things at dealers and friend's homes in their good systems, let alone YT videos.

Grey9hound,

Regarding huge soundstages, I don't like bloated soundstages and fat images, which is like magnifying a low quality picture to reveal larger but fuzzier images.  My ideal is to have higher resolution in all freq, which increases ambient detail at all positions within the soundstage.  By revealing more low level detail at the farthest reaches of the soundstage, the soundstage is enlarged/expanded naturally, not through artificial magnification of low quality.  HF extension is important to achieve the expanded soundstage.  Of course, we don't want upper midrange/lower HF distortion or hifi-ish brightness.  Many people have added super tweeters which don't cause tonal aberrations but exhibit more airiness and enlarge the natural soundstage.

pokey77,

I'll add that whatever distance from your ears you try with the cups on the headphone cushions, varying the amount of air openness affects the tonal balance.  If you use 4-6 cups which surround more of the cushions than 2-3 cups of the same size, there will be less air and more of a closed in boxy feeling.  Most of us realize that speakers have less detail than headphones in close proximity to the ear drums, but we prefer the open environment of speakers which better approximate the live music experience.  So you can experiment with the number of cups and distance, to better simulate the natural listening experience in an environment.  In fact, Stax calls their headphones, "ear speakers."

I did not say Bloated soundstage. Please lighten up and stop trying to analyze every word we say and drawing conclusions from it. I said nothing about Bass. I did not find the bass of the VAC to be more solid state sounding and the Bass of the Gryphon to be more tube-like. Fuller bass does not mean less control. It just means it is somewhat elevated in that frequency range.

@grey9hound

I analyzed the 3 videos the same way you did.  I couldn't tell by keying in on the bass through youtube and my playback system so I concentrated on soundstage, tone and reverberation time.  I picked the Soulution / Gryphon presentation every time although to be honest I thought I was picking the VAC system.  Those Mephisto Solos are really something. 

ron17,

Your picks also show that both VAC and S 725 + Mephisto are unique products that don't conform to typical tube and SS components, respectively.

I’m really kind of surprised 😮 some people here got it wrong 

with my Bluetooth earphones Yamaha EP-E70A Wireless And Sony WI-1000X listen on my iPhone 13 Pro max it was like day and night especially on the bass control 

I even comment on YouTube videos that if my picks are not solid state then I’m going to sell all my gear and buy tube set up 

I can only speak for myself, but - and I mentioned this at the time - I couldn't have cared less about my ability to guess which was SS and which was tubes.  That was not the point.

The point was to pick which sounded the best, irrespective of the technology, and hopefully consistently choose the same setup.

Maybe some are dismayed that they picked a technology that they didn't expect to, but not me.  I'm actually kinda pumped that I picked the tubes, because that's an interesting learning point for me and probably something I'll pivot to down the road.

Some people here get too wrapped up in gear stereotypes, assuming that there is no possible way that tubes could have better bass control or better clarity or whatever than top-of-line solid state.  That's unfortunate.  This test showed me that WC's tube setup had better bass control that the top-of-line tubes, which I would not have thought possible but having honestly taken the test with an open mind must now accept and embrace.

Kren0006, 

Right.  If you were willing to spend the money on the VAC 450's and preamp, you probably would be happy with that.  However, for your budget, I suggested alternatives, even the LSA Voyager, all of which you would still have to audition at home to be sure.  Keep up your open mind about how any technology and even low price could give satisfaction to obtain the sound you want.

Tubes had better bass control than top of line SS I meant.

With all due respect, not looking for tips on my purchasing decisions.  I can handle that myself.

@kren0006 LOL

With all due respect, not looking for tips on my purchasing decisions.  I can handle that myself.

kren0006,

I agree - wondering if choices would be the same if we listen in-room vs  YT.

Dave

WC,

Will you be doing a video with the VAC pre and Mephisto monos?   Would love to hear that combo.

Dave

Yep... I plan to shoot it before I have no system for 2 weeks. I have new things arriving and I have shipped my transparent cables to get calibrated. 

So the Focals didn’t last a month?  Those cables get recalibrated based on speakers, not electronics, if I’m not mistaken 

Focals aren’t going anywhere. Don’t get ahead of yourself :)

The cables are calibrated based on the amps, source and preamp. Speakers arent taken into account. 

@thezaks 

"I agree - wondering if choices would be the same if we listen in-room vs  YT." Very valid question. I thought about that too. Jay is hearing way more being in the room than we'll ever hear over YT, not matter how good of a headphone system or playback through your main rig is. There's no doubt.

@kren0006 

I too could care less which was which. I simply picked what I like the best.

kren0006,

Sorry if you think I am intruding.  I'm just offering suggestions based on what you reveal about your preferences.  I believe that Mike Fremer likes what you do (Wilson for speakers, electronics with definition and some sweetness), so you can follow him closely.  He found the VAC 452 IQ tops in almost all sonic criteria.  He thought PS Audio Stellar M 1200 monos for $6K offered best value.  The M1200 uses a modified module based on the IceEdge module of my Rouge, but has a tube input stage which offers sweetness.  The LSA Voyager GaN is probably comparable, for only $3K.  You can try the M1200 for no risk, and the LSA with only a restocking fee risk.

I just connected the Mephisto solos and the VAC Master after being unplugged for a week and from a dead cold start, 30 seconds into it, I want to close this thread and my youtube channel. It is just F@CK!NG SPECTACULAR. It does not matter what song it is, what decade, good, bad, etc, It will blow your mind. I can’t believe how amazing this is guys.

Just put it into context, I matched these 2 components going by my gut feeling and based on my own trials and I NAILED IT. The cheapest linestage I’ve had here in the last 6 months and I can’t believe how amazing it is.

You want air? musicality? resolution? huge soundstage 3d? spaciousness?

It is all there.. I plan to record tomorrow once everything is completely warmed up and uploaded a few videos later this week. Stay tuned... i will be using some $800 tubes on this linestage (recommended by a dealer friend of mine) which are said to be leaps and bounds superior to the factory tubes. 

No worries and I’m sure you mean well.  But put it this way, you probably wouldn’t take very seriously the medical advice of a first year med school student advising you how to treat one of your patients. 
 

I know your preferences work for you, but I give them less weight than even my hypothetical. No offense. I wouldn’t expect anyone to follow my suggestions either, which is why I never offer any……

Jay, curious how the Furutech outlet worked out,  has the burn in helped or have you switched away from it?

Viber,

You are Dominating the thread. People are sick of it .

We do not want or need your input or perceived "HELP "to any posts. You are replying to anything posted and giving your advice or reply to every post made. Nor do we need you endlessly drawing conclusions and assumptions based on what you read elsewhere and put together with what people say in this thread.

You some off as "ALL KNOWING" and respond to everything as if you are the expert on ALL things.

Must be that DR that you use in front of your name in the real world. YOU are not GOD or all Knowing ..and I am pretty sure people are "SICK" of it .

PLEASE STOP.

@viber6

Although i don’t like it when others shove you around, i can’t argue with them because you continue to do the things that have been historically burning you:

1. recommending equipment you have never owned
2. drawing up conclusions based on your preference
3. providing help where it isn’t being requested
4. having conversations with some people within the thread that eventually take away from the natural flow of what people are really interested in

Sometimes it feels as you are trying to "fit in" and go through ups and downs (you stop doing this behavior only to return a few weeks later and do the same thing again) and i don’t know if you don’t realize you are doing it?

Look, i was guilty of being combative in the past. I had differences with some people ( @mrdecibel ​​@grey9hound ​​@kren0006 , and i am sure others i can’t remember) and then i realized that i was handling things the wrong way. I had to take a step back and understand that they all have their own journey as well and I am nobody to tell them what to do or not to do or how to listen to music/gear/etc.

We all want healthy, respectful discussions WITHOUT barking or imposing our views on others especially when there is no "hands on" experience with such recommendations.

Everyone who has been on your case is not doing it on purpose, but rather because you call for it after repetitive behavior that i think you can admit you are guilty of.

I have people on here who have been riding with me from my early days and who post on here regularly and have helped the organic growth of this thread (THANK YOU BY THE WAY) and they are not judgmental, but even they are tired of what is happening.

Every person who has told you something at one point or another is only doing it because you pushed it for far too long until they could not take it anymore.

Lastly, please take a step back and try to understand what is triggering you to do the same thing over and over again. It keeps being the main obstacle between you and everyone else on here and i think if you managed to figure that out then you wouldn’t be getting the reaction you get.

It is 2022, maybe it is time to hit a reset button inside of you? if you simply feel that you are who you are and you can’t change then perhaps this thread is not the right environment for you and it might actually hurt you down the road due to all the constant heat you take. It CAN NOT feel nice to wake up each day and see something negative written about you on here. That has to hurt and I am surprised you have been handling it for so long. I personally would have just never come back. 

Some people just need constant attention regardless if its positive or negative. You know the old saying "Any press is good press".

Thank you Jay. I have resisted commenting on Viber6 several times and I appreciate you addressing this with him in a civil, yet realistic manner.

Joe

@riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook 

I see your point, but taking heat when you don't really have to can't be good press.

I am having to take heat because i am public and have a channel so it comes with the territory, but if i did not have a channel or a thread i would not put up with it. I would just walk out and find something else to do with my time or a place where i am welcomed. 

@jdechamp 

You and many others have the same sentiments. I am only stepping in this time because i want for viber to "regroup" and understand what is happening without me having to be abrasive towards him. However, one can only help a person that truly wants to be helped. If he continues to do the same thing then I will not intervene and unfortunately let him seek his own demise. 

Ok folks, 

On today's video, i will be be giving you my opinion on the Nordost Qkore. Is this thing worth the money? who should be buying it? what are its CONs? What does it do for your system? 

Tune in to find out! (1130AM)

@jays_audio_lab 

I appreciate your kind and insightful comments - you hit the nail on the head, metaphorically speaking.

Honestly, I don’t see viber6 changing at all. I understand that viber6 has his preference and wants to help others with theirs and uses their comments and good logic to deduce what would be best for folks. Good intentions for sure.

However, I think that along with the good intentions, viber6 does not respect others. Seems like a weird combo, but that’s what I see. For example (recent examples), WC recently requested that viber6 take a conversation offline, but viber6 bucked that. kren006 mentioned that he doesn’t need any tips on his purchasing decisions, and viber6 then replied with a few suggestions for purchase, such as the M1200 and the LSA. It’s this lack of respect that leaves sour notes on his good intentions.

I hope I’m wrong and viber6 starts respecting others.

Dave

Very nice review of the Nordost Qkore6.  I really love mine.

Man you have hit the road running in 2022.  The very high end SS vs tube comparison was unprecedented.  Really looking forward to the VAC Master preamp / Mephisto Solos video.  Your content just keeps getting better and better.