Video 1: + Presentation 1 SS, - Presentation 2 Tube

Video 2: + Presentation 1 SS, - Presentation 2 Tube

Video 3: + Presentation 2 SS, - Presentation 1 Tube

I basically compared all presentation to my audio system playing the same track at same audio levels using a decibel meter. Presentation that I liked most got the + rating.

Unfortunately, you didn't record the dynamic drum piece for #1 in video 3.  On #2 it was great.  Great job otherwise, thanks.  

One YT commenter thought he could hear tube hiss.  That would be a way of cheating by knowing the identity of the VAC without critically listening to the music.  But SOTA tube equipment has barely any hiss.  I didn't hear any hiss on my low rez computer.  Do you hear any hiss from the VAC system?

I have more samples but people get bored and desperate to find out what is what. I could have made 5 videos but the attention span from many is quite small and this is why I chose a small sample size (3 songs). 

Video 1: Strong Presentation 1

Video 2: Dunno

Video 3: Presentation 2, barely

My choices above reflect my preference for that PARTICULAR song.

I suspect that I chose SS in video 1 and tubes in video 3.

My takeaway- I need more samples to form a definitive preference.

Great analyses. Will be fun as always to ultimately hear Jay’s synopsis. Looking forward to it. 

psnyder149,

We are waiting for your summary and analysis.  So far, the handful of listeners here are all over the map in their preferences and guesses of identities.  Assuming everyone has good ears, this proves that these two setups are very close.  

The big revelation is that the VAC is not a classic tube sound, paralleling Mike Fremer's experience.

Video 3 is tough.  I was about to give up and not make a choice, but kren0006 tipped me off about listening to the bass.  Like him, I find the bass on #2 a little tubby.  The string bass is a little more plucky and tight on #1.  My choice is #1 for this video, which I think is SS.

Summary of my choices and guesses of the identities:

Video 1--#2, SS 

Video 2--#1, SS

Video 3--#1, SS

kren0006,

You said, "Editx2: Perhaps I wouldn’t be disappointed in myself if it turns out I cross-selected, because I guess that would just show I prefer different systems for different types ofmusic, which is plausible, but I guess I’d hope that I’d find one system superior in all facets - that would be preferable to me anyway."

This could be true, but another possibility is that the two setups are so close that you randomly selected one type of sound for some of the videos, and another for the other.  In my case, I want clarity and front row type immediacy for any music I enjoy.  I certainly had difficulty with all 3 videos with my computer setup, but no doubt if I were listening in Jay's room and with more precise volume matching, the differences would be greater.  The fact that you and I who normally have different preferences chose the same presentations for some of the 3 videos, supports my contention of random selection of very close presentations.

Yes I encourage everyone to post their findings here so we can discuss !

We need more people to post their findings 

Can’t wait for the reveal! 

I actually think the opposite.  I suspect that for videos 1 and 2, presentation 2 was SS, and for video 3, presentation 1 was SS.  That's my guess anyway.  But if it's the opposite and it is tubes that I chose (assuming I did not cross-select, which is big assumption, though we now have three thinking Vids 1 and 2 were same order, switched on vid 3) then I think I will be even more happy because I'd actually love to choose tubes over SS, just don't think that's the way it will roll

Folks,

I can not thank you enough for taking the time to dissect all videos through your systems.

What I want to articulate here is that the reasons for this exercise were as follows:

1. To have fun since some of you are working from home
2. To hear TWO of the BEST amplifiers/preamplifiers
3. To let you hear gear that you probably will never hear in person
4. To let YOUR EARS decide for YOU and not the gear

With that out of the way, PLEASE USE THIS as a data point for your future purchases. If you are a long-time tube lover (greyhound), and you end up finding out that you selected solid state on 2 out of 3 presentations then maybe you are not that much of a tube lover as you thought you were? or maybe you simply love top notch solid state more than top notch tube gear, but you never knew you did because - well you have never compared THIS LEVEL of amplifier/preamp topology ?

The point i am trying to make with these comparisons is that if you are the type of person that will DENY that you preferred the opposite of what you would normally choose then you are pretty much only lying to....YOURSELF... NOBODY ELSE

If you selected tubes instead of the typical solid state you normally own then i suggest you go back to the drawing board....there might be a tube setup you might enjoy more... If you selected solid state instead of tubes and you have a been a tube lover...time to stop heating up your room with those glasses and begin to find solid state gear that checks your boxes.

Thanks again guys!

for part 3 I like presentation #2.

It sounds more REAL to me. I also think it is the VAC

i agree with Kenr

 Part 1 presentation #1 for me 

Part 2 presentation #1 for me

Part 3 presentation #2 fore me

I also think that these are VAC

Ok for part 2

once again. I think #1 is more real sounding.

I think #1 is VAC.

Cool.  Even though Ron and I are on different sides of the presentations, we agree as to order perhaps being same on first two vids and different on third.  I suppose that's under the assumption that we'd each prefer same electronics across the three songs.  Will be interesting to see the reveal results.

Here's my detailed analysis.  I preferred these presentations with the music played.  It's possible I would choose differently with different music selections.

 
Vid1 - 1

Vid2 - 1

Vid3 - 2

Total misrepresentation on your part, rsf507.  Even if you are the one misrepresenting statements, I would not advocate that you should be banned.  But it is clear what your character is.

OMG now Viber6 is saying  "It is not meaningful which setup is voted the highest majority.  What counts is the detailed analysis submitted by a few commenters here or on YT--...." 

What a crock of $hit! He now is the one to say who's opinion should count! Give me a break. He should be banned from posting here.

Well I don’t think anyone is saying this is a landslide either way (at least on this thread, I didn’t read YT comments), which is different from the Rouge v Gryphon trial where myself and Paul and others, and most importantly WC, said not even close. (that is not a rip on the Rouge; the trial should not have been close based on hugely different costs).

With both trials I didn't spend exhaustive time listening.  Two listens at most to any video and just focused on the trait I found most disparate between the presentations - bass quality here in this trial; cohensiveness, and overall togetherness with the earlier trial.  I don't have time to devote to a treatise, haha (not that anyone would care anyway)

Jay and his YT channel thrive on surprises.  Yes, it might piss some people off, but it would keep others honest.  Those who say that #1 or #2 blows away the other, would be revealed as dishonest.

Video 3 is toughest for me. I didn’t have a preference on initial listen. Will need to do again.

Ha, I don’t think he’d do that play same setup for both 1 and 2. That would just piss people off, haha, and make people not take him seriously.

Edit: Tubby bass is with #2 this time. I pick #1 here on third video.

Video 1: #2 is better, IMO.

Video 2: #2 is better, IMO.

Video 3: #1 is better, IMO.

Don’t care which is which, but I’ll be disappointed in myself if I cross-selected between the two systems. Hoping I have a clear preference one way or other from a "take something from this exercise" perspective.

Editx2: Perhaps I wouldn’t be disappointed in myself if it turns out I cross-selected, because I guess that would just show I prefer different systems for different types of music, which is plausible, but I guess I’d hope that I’d find one system superior in all facets - that would be preferable to me anyway

Video 2 again.  Today I find #1 and #2 too close to definitely call.  Unblinded, I still prefer #1 by a hair.  If someone were to play them for me when I am blinded, I couldn't tell the difference.  I won't be surprised if Jay has thrown a curve ball and says that #1 and #2 are the same electronics for this video 2.

Jay,

Personally, I have enjoyed the challenges of these A/B tests immensely and thank you for your efforts.  However, no amp setup "wins."  It is not meaningful which setup is voted the highest majority.  What counts is the detailed analysis submitted by a few commenters here or on YT--what they hear, and why they prefer a particular setup.  No voting system captures that.  

Analogy--voting tallies of 100's of people are like having 100's of superficial acquaintances, but a handful of good close friends are much more meaningful.

VERY close.  On #1, I hear slightly greater jangle/sparkle on the guitar.  #2 is slightly warmer.  With the E flat note on the guitar at 0:12 it is a little more stark with more transient pop for #1, than at 3:29 for #2.  On the voice, I hear little difference. I choose #1 by a hair.  On this video 2, I believe #1 is SS, whereas on video 1, #2 is SS.

Again, this shows that VAC is less tubey than most other tubes, and competes well with Soulution + Mephisto.

Dave, play that E flat on your guitar and see what you hear.  In a small room, the guitar has more body, but in a very large room resembling a large studio, the guitar has more transient emphasis.

Hey Paul,

All my songs are from the playlist I shared with you all from tidal 

I'm working up to writing up my "non-matrixed" findings, but not quite ready.

Jay, Can you confirm the recording is Sara K:  All Your Love (Turns Into Passion) from the Water Falls record 2002 44.1 16 bit or is it a different version/master?

Thanks

Certainly possible, but if m hoping I consistently prefer one or the other 

I think what this exercise might reveal is that we prefer tubes on some source material, and SS on others.

I honestly don’t care one way or the other which I end up preferring. I do hope I’m consistent in my choices between videos (because if not then what have I really learned?), but if not so be it

Video 2

I too also vote for presentation No. 2.

Omg I'm loving this!! 

I can't wait to disclose what is what...

Use this shootout as an example of what your ears really like and not what your eyes prefer. There is a difference between both!

Same thing for me Kren - first listen to Vid 2, I choose Presentation 2.

Dave

On first listen, i choose Presentation 2 from Video 2

rbwnc,

These comparisons are fun - and I enjoy having fun.  I will probably never get to hear this type of comparison in person, so it's fun to at least experience it this way - even though YT doesn't at all equal the in-person listening.  Plus, WC eventually provides his take from in-room listening, which is why those videos are so popular.

Dave

rbwnc,

You are correct that these are not double blind tests.  Since Jay is doing the setups, these tests are single blind.  If Jay is honest and diligent, then single blind is valid.  So far, all of Jay's A/B shootouts have been useful on many levels.

But even if someone other than Jay were to do the setups, and Jay just presented the videos, making them double blind, technically we cannot identify the 2 presentations as being specific components.  Nobody but Jay has experience with both the VAC and Soulution + Mephisto, with the Transparent cables, MSB, etc.  All we can do is report what we hear and prefer.  The VAC and other electronics may be atypical examples of tubes and SS, respectively.

To give people two different flavors to compare and let their own ears decide what they like best (yes through YouTube)

Not sure if it’s been mentioned before in the previous thousands of posts, but it is impossible to identify any component in a true double blind test scenario. 
 

I’m sure that’s been noted previously. 
 

So I’m curious- why are you doing this exhausting “test”? 
 

Please direct me to the post if you have already answered this question- thanks!

Jay, 

Look at Daniel Kurganov, violinist, on YT.  His channel has 37K subscribers after many years.  He is a modest guy who demonstrates his teachings in 30 min lessons, and posts old recordings of the great masters.  His audience is limited to people like me and music students who find his tips valuable.  Special content is available by supporting him on Patreon, much cheaper than lessons from prestigious teachers at $500/hour.  Covid has destroyed the careers of many musicians, but those with great YT channels do well.

Dave, my pleasure, thanks.

Due to all the variables in our means of evaluating YT videos, we accept that Jay in his room has more ability to discern subtle differences.  What we have here is better than nothing, and offers more opportunities to compare impressions.  It doesn't matter to me if someone has a different preference than I, but I value the fact that he hears the same things I do, such as A has more focus, precision, etc. than B.

We'll see if the next videos with closer volume matching enable us to better discern the differences.  Possibly more surprises to come!

Good points from everyone.  Thanks viber6 for your terrific response to my post  :-)

Dave

My plot has also thickened.... !  I just made a discovery after discussing my results with another reader of the thread and some odd "artifacts" on both presentations that I just couldn't understand...!  

I was using my Apple TV to play the YouTube videos into my Classe Sigma SSP.  I didn't think to consider that about the only thing I use the Apple TV for on this system is for watching Netflix so I had the internals set for 7.1 speaker system with Dolby Digital Matrix that converts a 5.1 signal into a 7.1...  All well and good,... except that it also converts a 2 channel YouTube signal into a matrixed 7.1!  Not good when you're listening to stereo music!

This changed many aspects of the sound.  I still prefer presentation 1 to 2 but I fear that my evaluation needs to be completely redone and unfortunately I have listened to this all around 10 times so I need to "unlearn" everything, cleanse my ears from the nasty conversion and start from scratch...  I will say, it is bizarre how the sound changed from conversion to straight stereo...  More to follow!

The plot thickens.  I boosted the volume on #2 by 1 notch on my computer keyboard.  But the overall volume was now greater on #2 than #1, so Jay did a reasonable job of matching volumes, although someone doing this evaluation on their stereo with a fine volume control could do a more objective evaluation than I.  So with the volume boosted by 1 notch for #2, I prefer #1 as having more precise and delicate sound, correlating with #1 having lower volume.  But as Jay originally recorded it with volume levels unchanged, I still prefer #2.  I agree with the findings and speculations of kren0006 and psnyder149.

It is not so simple to precisely match volume levels.  Different components have different tonal balances.  What weightings does the ear assign to different freq, and same goes for dB readings for cheap phone apps?  Then there is human ear sensitivity vs freq, such as the Fletcher Munson curve.  100 dB in bass isn't loud, but 100 dB in upper midrange is very loud.  

My summary is that #! and #2 are close, and VAC did better than I previously believed.  

Glad I didn't post last night because after listening again this morning I completely erased what I wrote yesterday!  

Firstly, ditto @grey9hound.  Secondly, I would add that presentation 1 sounds more "artistic" while presentation 2 sounds more "clinical/surgical/precise".  Both are great and I probably could live happily with either.  

Presentation 1 sounds much closer to the original source material played on my system which is Classe Audio.  I suspect that my system is a darker, warmer, more "tubey" presentation than neutral, so even though 1 sounds closer to my solid state system, my guess is 1 is VAC and 2 is Soulution/Gryphon.  Ironically, I suspect that I would really, really love the preamp on 1 playing through the amp on 2.  I have always loved Audio Research paired up with a super solid state amplifier and I feel like that is what the preamp 1 w. amp 2 would be...  

Regarding bass and impact.  Both recordings are significantly lacking in these areas compared to source material on my system.  I have not found this to be indicative of high end Focal  speakers I have heard in the past nor do I suspect it is reflective of the front end capabilities.  I wonder if the Focal's are not quite done breaking in yet or if this is just a limitation of Jay's recording capabilities/YouTube...  Again, this diminishment is in both presentations so in no way do I think it is reflective of pre-amp/amp capabilities.

And in the clear category of "cover my ass"...  I could easily see a world where solid state is 1 and tube is 2, but it would mean that one or the other... or both! are seriously violating stereotypes!  At this point, I would trade everything I own for either... except perhaps the speakers...  My gut is that they are not finished completely done breaking in yet....

I also believe that Presentation 1 is tubes and Presentation 2 is solid state. Yes, agree with greyhound that everything does sound more polite and less muscular & dynamic than with the Wilson but that isn’t surprising at all - exactly same result as when he had the previous Focal and Wilson in room at same time  a year plus ago.

Agree with Viber that bass is a bit tubby with Presentation 1 and tighter with 2. Didn’t necessarily hear major treble differences between the two presentations - difference for me was the bass.

Looking forward to next vid

Valid points, grey9hound.  #1 is recorded a little louder than #2.  This could explain the extra fullness in lower midrange and bass I hear in #1.  I would have to adjust the volume on my keyboard, which is crude, and repeat my evaluation.  I hope Jay matches the volumes for the remaining videos so that more meaningful evaluations can be done.