My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

@jays_audio_lab  Nice video. Couple of thoughts...are you using a dedicated line with your amps? If so, hopefully just one dedicated line ( at least 20 amps) for all gear. This is going to be a factor before one should replace the outlet. Secondly, making sure your power to the room is good is very important...just ask Mikey Fremer about this, as he went through a power upgrade to the street that was extremely important...as it always is! Replacing the power connectors at the street transformer ( and possibly the transformer itself) is also highly beneficial...( although costly, but at the top level, that is what we have to do). 

I also think if you have speakers in the room...like behind your screen, that these will absolutely impact you SQ. as they will play in harmony with your mains ( even if turned off!). 

The Furutech outlet is known to need extensive break-in, as you discuss, although why you heard such an initial upswing in SQ and then a step back is odd. I use an Oyaide R1, which has none of these issues and sounds fantastic, but it is at the end of a totally upgraded dedicated power supply. 

BTW, a friend who owns the Furutech NCF outlet says that you can do away with the CF cover plate and instead utilize a ceramic one, easily sourced at Home Depot for a fraction of the price...works as well, or even better! 

viber6,

I am catching up from the last couple of pages.  I see that you wrote this:

"The conventional a-phile notion that "musical" means reducing unpleasantness by rolling off HF is incorrect.  True musicality means revealing more information in all freq ranges which serves better appreciation of the music from more insightful information delivery."

Ok, so first, you are telling everyone that only your interpretation of musical is correct, which I would disagree with.  My opinion is that musical is subjective, and what you wrote about the a-phile notion is probably more correct to the rest of the world.  Even the dictionary definitions seem to lean that way, with things like:

1. relating to music.

2. having a pleasant sound; melodious or tuneful.

Your definition of musicality - "I" would say it's more "technical", than "musical".   But that's just my thought - again, I think it's subjective and each person's definition is correct for them. 

Dave

I can enjoy music while driving my CRV. I can enjoy music when sitting by the pool listening to the Polks hanging from their brackets. I can enjoy music from my phone. But what the " system " brings to the table, are all of the musical " cues ", the additional " details ", that are not present elsewhere. I am not speaking of tone or imaging, although yes, they are enhanced. Musical, to me, is what the musicians are doing. As stated by not just me, it is the music that matters. Some of us are listening to the sound of a guitar ( face it, the majority of us do ).....but, that guitar is sounding, because a " person " is playing it. Not being a guitar player ( as my best friend ), I can pick up his guitar and make sounds and create tone....but, imo, this is not music....but it is his playing, that is music. It is all about the music......not sound ( I know Jay, with you, it is the sound ). I believe, growing up around, and being involved with, live music, has helped give me the ability to listen the way I do. I feel blessed, while many feel cursed, lol.

WC,

Some folks can't bear the long break in times of those outlets - especially the rhodium versions - so those folks break in the outlet somewhere else.  I've seen many folks who replace their refrigerator outlet with the new outlet and let it run for 2-3 weeks, and then bring the outlet back into the room.  Once back in the room, the outlet might still need a few days to a week to settle in.    Of course, if you want to track the progress through 2-3 weeks of break in, then that works too.

Good luck!

Dave

Many users have reported the same extensive break in period with the Furutech NCF outlet. Anyone have any thoughts as to why this would be the case? after all the outlet is simply passing through power and it is not having to form in any way.

I wonder if expectation bias has anything to do with the results? 
OTOH, I seriously doubt that Jay would be so influenced.

Expectation bias would not be the case, when the sounds goes from great improvement to sucks big time.  I sometimes envy those who don't believe in break in and can't hear the difference  :-)

Dave

I’m not saying break in is not a thing. I am asking what in an outlet would require break in…anybody?

WC, you said in the video that you only installed one of the three Furutech outlets, which means the other two operational outlets should be unchanged. Simply plug your 2ch system now into those and see if the expected sound returns.

That should clear up whether it is the new outlet or power company AC degradation issues.

Your HT experiment wouldn’t necessarily have detected for this

Same for cryogenetically "altered " products ( don't know of a more appropriate word ). Materials go through change, as does our ac source. Jay, is the ultimate audiophile ( a complement ). We are all audiophiles, as we spend  money and make changes /  additions, to further our listening goals and enjoyment, of our recorded music.. 

I’ve read much info on this outlet over the years and remember a number of stories where these outlets need extensive break-in. I’d not think this has anything to do with Expectation bias, especially in Jay’s instance. Who know's what needs to be broken in on these outlets.

Interesting conversation above. I don’t really know why it sounds so unrefined only a few hours after it was sounding phenomenal. What I can say is that today it has gone through changes and got quite better earlier this afternoon. I also decided to use my simaudio 860v2 a few hours ago and this amp still shows the lack of finesse in the presentation but to a lesser degree than the Mephistos do.

I think we all can certainly learn from this experiment and it will benefit many of you guys since I’m sure most of you have no problem buying this outlet.

@kren0006

I actually replaced 2 more outlets with shunyata units which haven’t been released yet and unfortunately I need all my outlets to power my system:

2 inlets for monos

2 for msb

1 for taiko

One for soulution preamp

Then on the spare outlet I’m running my home theater components. I’m pretty much running enough outlets which handle everything quite well but I cant run my 2 channel off of 2 outlets unfortunately.

Check this out guys:

https://news.harman.com/releases/legendary-audio-brand-mark-levinson-celebrates-50-year-milestone-with-limited-edition-ml-50-amplifier-package

grey9hound,

I hope you explore 12 tone 20th century "classical" music.  The brief passage in the strings you mentioned also has interesting sound effects which enhance the eerie feeling.  I assure you that you won't be bored by these early 20th century composers.  They are intellectual musical puzzles that I think you will enjoy.  Herbie Hancock gave it in small doses, so here is your opportunity to go whole hog.  

As for me, I am not an intellectual musical connoisseur of these things.  Guido D Corona is more knowledgeable than I about this music.  He personally met Stockhausen, a leading composer of such music, which came to be known as avant garde in "classical" circles.  I never understood Schoenberg's 12 tone music, but I still love his best known early piece, "Transfigured Night" which is a transition from his late 19th century romanticism to the 12 tone style.

This leads me into a post to thezaks, addressing the relationship of musicality to understanding.

«Any dog could be understood but only one can be loved»-Anonymus Smith

thezaks,

The music I listen to is very complex and subtle. To get full appreciation of it, I must concentrate to a similar degree which is required to watch a detective movie or Shakespeare play with its complex language. You can listen/watch these art forms in a relaxed state, but you will only get a limited and superficial level of enjoyment by doing that.

No, I’m not talking about analyzing the freq response of the music and other technical details. I defy the super brain of superman to "read’ the grooves in the LP or the digits in the CD and come away with an understanding of the music. I am talking about having a musical understanding from keen, insightful listening. Accurate, detailed audio components make this easier--you can more easily hear musical strands using such components compared to euphonic ones. Once the accurate component reveals the musical information, you can go back to the euphonic component and hear the details, but if you listen to the euphonic one first, you won’t hear it, and you won’t know what you are missing.

Even simple music such as a slow soft guitar accompanying a singer should be listened to carefully to appreciate the nuances. When I tune my violin, I play a single note of A 440 Hz and then fifths with the D and E strings softly and carefully, listening and thinking for a few seconds about what I hear. The general principle is that no matter what music you listen to, it should be done with the goal of hearing more of its details, which will make the sensory experience richer. Everyone savors a sip of wine slowly--nobody should swig it down the throat like water. They should do the same with their music, whatever it is.

Talking about whether MY definition of "musical" is subjective or not really is a comparatively trivial endeavor. I do criticize the conventional a-phile definition of "musical" as merely being a pleasurable combination of sounds subtracting the harsh aspects. Someone who finds these sounds to be harsh, I may not. Provided that the SPL is not too loud, they are not harsh, but they are part of the complete musical content. So if anything, logically speaking, the conventional a-phile definition of "musical" sound is actually un-musical to a certain extent, meaning that some of the musical information in such audio systems is missing.

Blah, blah, Mark Levinson.  I had the original ML 2's which put him on the map.  New, they were dry bones sterile.  Quickly they turned into syrupy warm euphonic crap.  Even ARC tube amps at the time were more exciting and neutral.  Later no. 20 was still quite euphonic.  Then about 10-15 years ago, the tall upright ambitious class D (no 53?) appeared at about $50K/pair, and got terrible reviews.

Let's hear more of your Mephisto monos in shootouts, etc.

@jays_audio_lab If you are using more than one outlet and are not using a dedicated line, then you run the risk of ground loops ( or you are running more than one dedicated line..and the same thing applies!), which maybe is the reason you are hearing the results you are with the Nordost ground blocks. However, I think a better solution is to run a single dedicated line, like I stated above, and run a good power distributor off that line. Your mono blocks and other gear should have no issues with that. Are you even running a dedicated line(s)?

Yes - 4 dedicated lines

Hi Jay - I’ve posted maybe twice before to your thread. Big solid-state amps and inefficient speakers aren’t my thing really, but I have enjoyed following your journey from an intellectual standpoint. A long time ago when I was trying to build a relatively expensive system for myself, an audio salesman gave me a piece of advice that I have found to hold up over the years, as opposed to much of what we hear thrown around. He said, and I paraphrase - Decide what you want to keep and build your system around it. Somewhat simplistic, but there’s a lot of truth to it. Now I’m going to be a little blunt, but just to save space and not to be critical. IMO, you have decided that you want to keep the Mephistos because they expose every flaw in the system. So now you are building the rest of the system around them with cables, stands, footers and whatever else you may do to make them sound "good" to your ears. Nothing wrong with that, but is it possible (theoretically of course) that the Mephistos just sound harsh and analytical and you have to compensate by softening them? What if the Furutech outlet is the "truth" and is just exposing the fact that the rest of your system is "wrong" See what I’m saying? I think that no matter how you want to describe it, in the end you are deciding what you want to keep and are building your system around it. And BTW - as far as being true to the source, I worked in the recording industry for several years in my youth and I think that anyone else who has will back me up on this - mastering engineers do not necessarily mix for what they consider to be the best sound. They mix to get a sound they believe will compensate for the inaccuracies in the systems of the real world. For example, when we mixed a disco song, we would often mix with less bass than we wanted to hear to compensate for the fact that many clubs had huge amounts of bass EQ dialed in to their systems and to mix with what sounded good to us would overload their systems. Just an example. So my point here is not to criticize - just to add another possible fork in the road of the journey you are on. And please, be careful with that heavy stuff. I hurt my back 2 years ago and it is not fun, I assure you. Regards.

Jay, just finished reading your Harmon news release link about the new ML-50 monoblocks. Looks interesting, but these amps should have better looking handles for a $50K pricing...They are look too much in your face IMHO. I think that Harmon wanted to give the ML-50 a similar esthetical look as the previous ML-23.5 amp. They should have kept the handles in black for the ML-50...I also understand that this is a very subjective topic, but this is my 2 cents 😉.

@chayro 

You make great points and i agree i am planning to build around the Mephisto. However, if you build around the mephisto which in my opinion is the most neutral amp i have owned, chances are that whatever partnering gear you chose will probably sound awesome with many other amps I bring home (at least 9 times out of 10). 

Also, dont forget i mentioned that the simaudio is also not sounding great with this outlet so that gives me a second data point. Look, if i end up hating the furutech outlets then i have no issues removing them and selling them, but i have to give them at least 500 hours. I am NOT waiting longer than that. If at 500 hours they havent come back around then they are exiting my room and i will finish the job with Shunyata outlets. 

chayro,

As a violinist, I also did recording of classical ensembles on an amateur level, still with top Neumann mikes, Bryston mike preamp, etc.  I'll take your word that in rock/pop/jazz, the mastering engineers tailor the production sound to what they think will work well in typical audio systems.  All this is processed sound on many levels, so the concept of seeking high fidelity on playback is lost.  These listeners cannot say whether one component is more accurate than another, so they naturally choose whatever components please them the most.  

But there is very little, if any, processing in classical recordings.  Most of it remains confined to multi-mike recordings of complex large ensembles on large stages.  Even as a performer sitting in the violin section of the orchestra, I experience how instruments close to me sound crisp and clear, but instruments and voices in the back of the stage sounded muddy, with excessive reverb.  So I understand the benefits of multi-mike techniques, which do clarify more of the instruments and voices, although the spatial perspective is not natural.  Mercury Living Presence classical recordings are the best and most natural ever made, with no processing and few mikes used.

For the rock/pop listener, an accurate amp like Mephisto may well be paired with warm, forgiving components for the reasons above.  However, if the goal is highest accuracy and fidelity such as in classical recordings, it is desirable to have every component dedicated to the same goals of accuracy.   This is easy to understand.  One end of the spectrum involves having all components forgiving, so there are 10 veils of sound clouding the transparency.  The opposite end, a system with complete transparency, involves ZERO veils.  Nobody has a completely transparent system, but we can achieve perhaps 1-2 veils, and then hear much more of the music coming through.  This is done by having all components devoted to accuracy.  Yes, some people think of the Mephisto as exposing flaws, but on a positive note, it has the highest accuracy and transparency for revealing more musical content.  

Jay stated himself that the Mephisto mono is the best amp he has owned.  Why?  He finally realized he is bored with the homogenization from other amps.  With those amps, all music sounds decent, but not at the cutting edge level he now wants.  If he seeks the same from other components, he will attain the highest cutting edge level, coming closest to complete transparency.

Jay, 

I realize that many people with more experience than I have recommended various better outlets.  But even with the best outlets, there is still the power quality coming in, which Mike Fremer wrote about as what nearly killed his excellent system.  I predict you will still experience these frustrations unless the power quality is fully addressed.  I have been only partly successful with my Shunyata Denali 6000, original version.  Ricevs probably has the best knowledge in this area.  You could get the Goal Zero Yeti battery/inverter models, or the Stromtank big guns offered by Dan D'Agostino.  Lots of clutter from all these units, but they are probably the best solution to this perennial problem.

@viber6 - I definitely hear what you are saying and I have a lot of experience with acoustic music as I play(ed) several instruments and have my degree in music. And I assure you there is no sarcasm intended in my comments to come.  First, I don't think Jay listens to unamplified acoustic music, at least not that I have seen.  But that's not really important. From an intellectual standpoint only - if you want to boil it down, it seems that the decision that the Mephistos are the most neutral is based on the impression that it makes most associated equipment sound bad.  Obviously, that is an overly simplistic analysis, but I think there is some truth there.  And as to the way acoustic music is recorded, yes some companies like MA, Water Lily and Reference use minimal miking and processing, but I have attended several classical recording sessions at RCA studios back in the day, and the engineers used tons of microphones and large amounts of EQ to get things sounding "good" to the people paying the bills. And even as far as those audiophile recordings I mentioned above, don't the engineers select the microphones, recording equipment, room and mic positioning to get the sound that they like?  Again, It is not my intention to say anyone is wrong in their personal quest for the absolute sound, as some call it. I am just wondering if it just really all boils down to "I like the way that sounds" in the end.  I don't know. That's the way we used to buy stereos.  We'd go into Crazy Eddie, Stereo Warehouse or wherever and say "I like that one". And we took it home and never worried about whether it was accurate. I think it's interesting. 

Four dedicated lines could be part of your issue. I would suggest that you get yourself a good power distributor ( if you haven’t already) and run all of your gear off that and from one of the dedicated lines ( hopefully one that is at least a 20amp line) and see what the results can be. As we stated ( viber 6 and I) cleaning up the supply to your room is also important.

Should be interesting to hear what the final result will be after the 500 hour (Yikes) break in procedure...

viber6,

"Talking about whether MY definition of "musical" is subjective or not really is a comparatively trivial endeavor. I do criticize the conventional a-phile definition of "musical" as merely being a pleasurable combination of sounds subtracting the harsh aspects. Someone who finds these sounds to be harsh, I may not. Provided that the SPL is not too loud, they are not harsh, but they are part of the complete musical content. So if anything, logically speaking, the conventional a-phile definition of "musical" sound is actually un-musical to a certain extent, meaning that some of the musical information in such audio systems is missing."

Your definition of "musical" is about information being present/missing in the music, and I believe some folks would agree with you.  I definitely understand your point of view.  However, other folks would describe "musical" in the way it sounds, rather than the amount of information presented.  And another group of folks would consider a combination of the two to define "musical".  That seems to lean to a subjective point of view on musical.  The dictionary definition - a pleasant sound - is very subjective.  Most would perceive this as the not harsh sound you associate with a-philes.  I believe that pleasant for you is having more information.  We could go round and round on this, but I think it's best to leave musical to the ear of the beholder and not make one person's interpretation (yours in this case) the absolute.

Dave

They will come around, mine did!!

Cheers,

Hey, if you have one of those LG or Samsung Smart/Hub refrigerators that play music and you decide to break in the outlet by replacing the refrigerator outlet, then you just might hear the difference in the music coming from the refrigerator  :-)

Dave

WC,

Did you ever try one of the SR Orange (or Blue) outlets?  If you did, I'm not sure if you commented on the outlet.   If you didn't, I'd be surprised with all of the SR stuff you had at one point.

Dave

@jays_audio_lab

I have a breaking in solution that a friend of mine exposed me to when he has to break in a power cord.  He plugs the refrigerator into the power cord and the cord into the outlet.  The frig goes none stop, so a 500 hour break in can be done in 20 days and with no wear on your component. 

Now if the wife doesn't mind, you could switch the frig outlet with the one that needs breaking in.  Crude, yes.  But gets the job done.  You may laugh at first until you think about the time saved and the extended life you save on the components you would have used otherwise.      

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. For now,

The system is not great but I'll use this time to create content that many of you want such as  stuff I've owned  and that I haven't gotten around to reviewing. 

chayro,

Thanks for informing me about the shenanigans of RCA engineers.  RCA recorded the top artists like Heifetz, Rubinstein, Guarneri Quartet, but I hated the sound quality for the latter two artists.  The sound was excessively warm and dull--they made choices in the EQ and other techniques to get that type of sound.  Heifetz was a brilliant player, and the 60's recordings of him were brilliant, which suited his playing style.  In the 80's, the Guarneri switched to Philips, and their recorded sound was more brilliant and lifelike.  

You're right that all recording engineers doctor up the sound to their tastes.  Most audiophiles prefer laid back sound, so Reference Recordings give them that.  In the late 70's when I began, audio stores were using as reference the 1967 Turnabout recording of Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances, which was upfront and brilliant.  Another Turnabout recording in the same style was Copland, Fanfare for the Common Man, Rodeo.  I hated later recordings of these pieces, which were more distant, and lost impact from the ambience muddying the waters.

As for Jay, I enjoy much of the music he presents, which although not acoustic, still presents reasonably natural timbre.  Ultraprocessed hard rock should not be used for assessing musicality, however anyone defines that term.  So Jay can use most of his relatively natural recordings to demonstrate that the Mepisto monos reveal flaws in the system, as well as bringing out more detail and understanding of the music. 

thezaks,

Are definitions of anything subjective, according to one’s tastes? I don’t think so. The purpose of a definition is to "define" something, that’s obvious. It is to establish some standard of objectivity. In music, "tempo" is objectively defined as approximately the number of notes per second, character of the rhythms, etc. Regardless of one’s tastes, all can agree that a certain piece has a faster tempo than another piece.

Regarding artistic interpretation, some people can say that artist A is more musical than artist B on a certain piece. It is reasonable to disagree on whether A or B is more musical. A may have more accurate technique, but B has a more contemplative meaning or "soul" in his performance. One can actually like both interpretations, which each reveal different aspects of the music, and in sum reveal more than either one individually. This gets into the different meanings of "musical." Ultimately, it is related to whether one thinks of the audio system as the music, or whether the audio system should be an accurate conduit of the real music in the recording. My goal is the latter, so I think it is absurd to talk about the "musicality" of the system. Most people here design their system to color the music the way they like, which they call "musical." In effect, this is making the (real) music more "musical" for the audio system, kind of absurd to me. I want the system to do as little as possible, and just transparently transmit the music on the recording. I strive for no audio "musicality," just transparency. Let the real music define what "musical" means.

viber6,

So, if you want to state that definitions are not subjective, then the dictionary definition of "musical" does not agree your definition of "musical".  Since nobody else is commenting on this here, perhaps it's better if we take this to PM.

Dave

Thanks for your post...

You post make perfect sense to me...

But all is not so simple than we think...

I had the same goal than you...

But in designing my room acoustic, with my own devices homemade passive treatment and my own designed mechanical room tuner, i encountered the problem of TUNING the speakers/room relation with my ears and for them...

Then this mythical and idealized " transparency" was a goal yes, but a relatively attainable one ...It cannot be an absolute succeess in absolute term...

Some think that their audio system patiently assembled give that to them free of further  work , but the room acoustic also play a part, a very important one...

Then i am in absolute approval of each of the words i extracted from your post...

However transparency in playback system cannot be absolute experience, it is always relative.... And any gear "colored" the sound always, and anyway we always listen the recording room of the live event TRANSLATED, never perfectly reproduced, in our own specific room and with our own specific system, for our own specific ears ONLY...

Then transparency is the goal you are right...But when this is said....

And when this is explained clearly like you just did, this concept and what is musicality dont transform your own taste, and experience, and system and room is the EXEMPLARY ONE...

Perhaps there exist perfectly transparent system in perfectly controlled room, but it is exceptions around the world ....

This is the reason audiophiles speak about the prefered "color" of their system...Some call their taste 2clarity" some others called it "warm"... No ears has the same design and history or skills...

Teh even if you are right about their entertained confusion between the original living sound of music and their experience with their gear in their room ...in spite of that they are right also, not only because they are conditioned to do so by the engineering marketing of the gear, but because no gear is perfect , and no room is perfect most of the times... Almost no ears are percfect too..

Then you are right and i think the same like you just wrote, but others who claim differently are right in their own perspective...

Audio life is not a one way road for one person....No one own the meter of musicality or transparency...Not even Karajan or Gould...The truth is we dont even know what sound is or what music is...

For sure "sound" must serve music, by sound i mean the gear and the acoustic, but the "sound/noise" cannot dispear from any playback system and from the room acoustic specificities magically and give us only absolute transparency just because we say so... We must work the gear and the acoustic with our imperfect ears....Even Karajan would do for his playback personal system for a result at the end debatable by an other maestro for his own reason...

Am i wrong ? feel free to correct me....

This gets into the different meanings of "musical." Ultimately, it is related to whether one thinks of the audio system as the music, or whether the audio system should be an accurate conduit of the real music in the recording. My goal is the latter, so I think it is absurd to talk about the "musicality" of the system. Most people here design their system to color the music the way they like, which they call "musical." In effect, this is making the (real) music more "musical" for the audio system, kind of absurd to me. I want the system to do as little as possible, and just transparently transmit the music on the recording. I strive for no audio "musicality," just transparency. Let the real music define what "musical" means.

I forgot to say the "timbre tonal micro structure" perception is an acoustic phenomenon that cannot be qualified by the main frequency spectrum only but by acoustic and psycho-acoustic conditions of the room/ears...The relation between the relative size of the sound source and the listener envelopment cannot be described by "clarity" "warmness" "coldness" or transparency concepts...

Then speaking about "transparency" in an absolute way, speaking about playback system, is  something that come from the marketing engineering conditioning of the customers.... Which is  always oblivious of the importance of the acoustic control of the room...

Tomorrow, at noon Eastern time, you will find out which component leaves Jay's Audio Lab... 

mahgister,

Your writings are sophisticated and true. I agree that we cannot describe live sound in any environment in superficial terms like frequency balance, warm, colored, etc.  It is also impossible to get mechanical speaker drivers to have the exact same tonal characteristics of natural instruments made of metal, wood, etc.  Even the same natural instruments sound vastly different in various halls, rooms, etc, due to size and acoustical materials.  Even though I have written about the unique superior sound of live unamplified acoustic music, there is a lot to complain about even in the best seat.  Applying the same critical standards we all have about our audio systems, I have come to be disappointed about certain aspects of live sound.  The strings in the front row of the stage sound wonderful, but the instruments in the back of the stage often sound really bad, with much confusion from the excessive reverberation.

So to be practical, my goals are to gain an understanding of music either heard live or on the audio system.  Clarity and high fidelity don't mean perfect reproduction of the live sound.  "Fidelity" means a faithful likeness, or "wow, it sounds real."  High fidelity is not an exact copy.  Do you know how to read printed music, also known as the "score" ?  This contains all the notes written by the composer, with some suggestions for dynamic contrasts, although the artist will interpret these suggestions in presenting the music.  If you look at the score of even a simple string quartet, it is amazing how much is written that you don't hear in most audio systems.  Live performances reveal these details better, but only if you get one of the few good seats.  If you design your audio system with the goal of revealing as much as possible of this written music, you will achieve high clarity.  I won't pretend to know much about the technical differences between audio systems and the live sound, but I am happy to understand more of the music, aided by pursuing neutrality, clarity so that the audio system has as much fidelity to the live sound I can get.  

I am not in this audio hobby as a scientific project, but rather as a means of getting the maximum information and understanding of the music I love.  

Thanks again Jay for the work pulling the playlist together. Really enjoying many of the songs including a number we have heard through your videos. I am finding them one by one over on Qobuz which I use through TAS. So far finding about 80%.

I’m going to guess the MSB. 

I’m sure the new ML 50,s will sound nice but I’d take the new Gryphon Commander pre and Apex amps thank you very much.

check them out they look great at stereonet

Well, gryphon has done it again... Finally a serious linestage. It’s time for me to save my money...just when I thought I was done with Gryphon.

I think this new amp is the bigger essence amp I've been talking about and if it is, oh boy...that is going to serious...

Oh wow this stuff is too much money...

The Apex stereo amp is $120k...$240k for monos..

Wow. That’s nuts. The stereo amp costs the same as Mephisto monos!!!

The new gryphon Apex amp can't detect a speaker load which oretty much means it completely assaults all speakers connected to it. Weight of the stereo amp is...440 lbs 

"The Gryphon Apex is by nature a product for the fortunate few who can afford such a statement: a product for the connoisseurs who seek absolute purity in the reproduction of music. In short, Apex has been created for music lovers whose respect for the musicians, producers and mastering engineers inspires them to seek the truth lurking in the original recording".

"Put bluntly, you can’t cheat physics. There are no engineering shortcuts when it comes to pure Class A, so we repeat with no apologies: TRUE, PURE CLASS A means heavy transformers, very large heatsinks, large quantities of expensive parts and costly assembly. While we appreciate and endorse every effort to conserve energy and preserve our global resources, our research into efforts to obtain Class A performance from class A/B topologies makes it clear that there simply is no substitute for the sheer magic of pure Class A."

I completely agree with this comment from Gryphon above .

Jay,

Now that you seek neutrality and clarity with the Mephisto monos, understand that no preamp will give you these qualities better than source direct into the power amp.  Even if the Gryphon Commander is THE best preamp for these qualities, it still won't be as good as no preamp at all.  You will come to recognize that it will still give greater dynamics and bloom but with sacrifice of neutrality, clarity, transparency.  Save your money--source direct into the Apex amps will more likely achieve the heights of neutrality and the like.  Right now, without spending any money, try source direct into your M monos.  You might be entranced with the greater neutrality/clarity and be willing to give up some of the dynamics and bloom.  Your XLF speakers are very efficient, and the powerful M monos by themselves might satisfy you totally, without the impurity from any preamp.  Even then, if your power quality is terrible at times, you will pull your remaining hair out, even with the Apex amps.  When I have those bad power days, my best power amp sounds worse than my oldest worst amp on a good power day.

MSB into Mephisto monos is a step backwards.. I have been very clear on the fact that the mephisto needs a "race car" driver. You can't make a dac do a real preamp's job.