My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

pokey77,

You are excessively broadening the definition of synergy to say it is what pleases you.  Of course, we all seek our own personal preference.  Just observe what Jay has done, by combining warm and accurate components.  He admits, as I do, that there are trade-offs--detail is sacrificed when seeking sweetness, etc.  The concept of synergy in the real world is different from the audio goals of most people here.  With high performance cars, they might not run at all if there are misfitting parts.  There is only the ONE proper SYNERGISTIC way, with compatible parts.  It could run with ordinary tires, but not as well as with the best tires designed for that car.  This synergy IS the best, with no compromises, and not a matter of personal preference, unless the driver is not interested in high performance, and merely buys the car for its looks.

Mikem, what do you think?

@viber6 

"Ron17, I also criticize his assessment of MSB.  No, I never heard either MSB or Playback Designs in my system, but my criticism is that he doesn't understand the sound of live, unamplified music.  He mainly listens to rock/pop, and has only a rudimentary knowledge of classical music." What does this have to do with anything? Do you understand how critical this is? These are the kind of comments that bring the focus on you. You may not agree with him, but you also don't need to call him out on the internet as if you have the one truth. Regardless of live music experience, we all listen at home the way we want to, not for someone else. We build systems for ourselves, not others.

ron17,

I completely agree with you  - you had me laughing as you reminded me of what he had said in his video  :-)

It's definitely apparent that his musical preferences make him extremely passionate and opinionated.  And, that was basically my point - his comments and reactions (to me) come off more as a product of this extreme emotional response to how components compare with his preferences, rather than the intended slamming of products he doesn't sell.   Although, I also admit that it's highly possible that it can serve both.

Thanks again ron17,

Dave

@viber6 

It is clear from your comments that you desire to set everyone straight, including me. Please understand that you have your POV, I also have mine. Mine is based on many many years of participating in this hobby, attending many shows, dealer visits, and of course, interacting with those in the hobby. Please stop trying to twist Jays comments to support your arguments and just agree that what you value in music reproduction is different from many in the hobby. Doesn't make it wrong or right, it just makes it your preference; and good for you.

Please, now, let's get this thread back on track.

The most important acoustical factor to test when assessing a system S.Q. is the basic essential one:

"Timbre tonal playing perceived surface and volume micro-structure" ... A piano note or a chord or a succession of chords for example appear like an islands archipelago on the sea of silence with his own complete internal and external shape and geography in a fleeting instant in the room...

You can have powerful dynamic, soundstage, imaging in any system relatively in some QUANTITY... With basic simple rule of installation and basic acoustic ...

But you cannot create very QUALITATIVELY good perceived TTPPM (timbre tonal playing perceived micro-structure)

Without using OPTIMALLY all the power of acoustic CONTROL in a dedicated room and vibrations control and method to decrease the electrical noise floor, and all that with the synergetic complementarity of the chosen gear...

But all that is useless if someone dont learn to use NON AMPLIFIED instrument and voice to explore with listening experiments and test controls...We are programmed in our short personal and million year evolutive history to perceive in ALL acoustic conditions the TTPPM of the human natural voice...

High frequencies, bass, mids characterisation are AUDIO general disjointed concepts about sound that are not the TTPPM...

Audio vocabulary cannot describe it....

It is a sound/music unifying perceived quality...

TTPPM is like a perceived human face.... Details here are not and are never only sounds like bordering EXTERNAL details like it is suggested in usual popular audio vocabulary... Details in TTPPM are flowing COLORED AND SHAPED and perceived intertwined internal EXPRESSIVE parts...

They are experience difficult to translate in words...

We learn to listen, nobody KNOW by innate election how to listen and what to listen...

Sound is to the internal perceived music in us what the external perceived body in the room is to the soul....A unity....

Because of what i said the music/sound experience is a JOURNEY different for each one of us... NO EARS ARE THE SAME AND NOT ONE HISTORY IS THE SAME....NOBODY is the master of other human being here, we must learn ALONE....Nothing will replace listening personal experiments....Any guru here is a seller willing it or not.... I respect much the honesty of the OP about that... It is the only reason i listen to him , his honesty, not for the components supposed S.Q. value at all ... I need his honesty in his journey not his components....I am more interested by him than by any piece of gear in fact he speak about....I dont buy gear, mine is enough for me anyway... Audio experience is related to exploring many piece of gear, but OPTIMAL S.Q. experience is related to ONE CHOSEN system by one pair of specific ears in a specific room....

By the way a dedicated OPTIMALLY small room is SHAPABLE FOR A PAIR OF SPECIFIC EARS with reflections control and time and timing control in a way a greater bigger room could not be.... Small room acoustic is not Hall acoustic.... This is very different in acoustic setting possibilities... The only true LUXURY in audio is owning a dedicated room, not the price of amplifiers or speakers...

Installing optimally a system can take months and years....It is not plugging a new device to upgrade, defeating and replacing in this way the necessary complex installation of the gear in the mechanical,electrical, and acoustical working dimensions of the system....

My motto is: embed everything rightfully before upgrading anything...

I know very little myself, what i learned i learned it myself in the last years with THE SAME GEAR in a continuous set of listening experiments....I am only a retired man listening music with a ridiculously low cost but relatively good system for me and my purse in a dedicated room .... This is only my experience and impressions...

I will not say much more....

I apologize for my rant....

Merry Christmast to all, especially to the passionate OP....

Thanks Dave...we're cool.

I still think Mikey has an agenda.  And that is to discredit costly audio gear and promote more affordable gear....especially the gear he sells.  That to me is a conflict of interest.  His review / comparison between the MSB DAC and his Playback Designs DAC was a blatant beatdown.  That's not a style that appeals to me.

Its interesting to me, in a general sense, that $20,000 for a dac is now considered (here?) affordable.

What if he is right?

I don't think a $20,000 dac is affordable at all, but it is "more affordable" than a $80,000 dac.

Alright boys

Thanks for all the posts above. I appreciate you all doing the dialogue back and forth even if there are differences of opinion.

That said, my interpretation of synergy is as follows:

The interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

when I put components to work together, It takes me a few hours or days and I can pick apart what is or isn’t being done.

It’s a feeling of magic like being in Disney World. The music flows, the sound is expansive, deep, layered, 3d, and emotional.

Synergy doesn’t mean something is automatically neutral. Neutrality is a different thing altogether. It is simply a clean window that doesn’t add a tint to the entire presentation.

Neutrality is awesome but it walks a very thin line between enjoyment and disappointment.

pokey77,

You said, "Mine is based on many many years of participating in this hobby, attending many shows, dealer visits, and of course, interacting with those in the hobby."

Nothing wrong with that, but it is telling that you didn't mention hearing live, unamplified music, and trying to correlate such listening with audio systems, which I have written about.  

Thus, your standard of reference is other audio equipment, not live unamplified music.  I am interested in high fidelity and accuracy; you are more interested in an audio system as an art form in itself.  This is why you interpret my assessment of Mikey's preferences as sharply critical and irrelevant, but they are factual observations of his preferences for euphonic sound, and it is also likely from his comments that he has little knowledge of classical music and live, unamplified sound, which is mainly how classical music is presented.  Nothing wrong with that, and If someone said I have little knowledge of rock/pop or amplified club sound, that would be factual, not critical of me.  Most rock/pop events use poor electronics and PA speakers, so rock/pop listeners rarely have experience with live, unamplified sound, and therefore are not much interested in high fidelity/accuracy.  The reality of very large audiences for rock/pop means that amps and PA speakers are used.   However, there are opportunities to hear jazz and pop in small venues where natural sound is presented.  Why don't you listen to the video I posted on the bottom of p 369 which mikem also thought had great sound?  You don't have to like the esoteric music presented, but a piano is a piano, regardless of what music is played.  See if you can hear what I and mikem are talking about, which is obvious after a few seconds.  This is also quickly apparent from that live natural 1976 audiophile classic reference, "Jazz at the Pawnshop"  that I and mikem discussed. Other great natural reference recordings are the Sheffield LP's of the jazz band of Harry James, the legendary trumpet player.  Harry was active in the 1940's, and it is interesting to hear him in excellent 1976 sound.  The stage was larger than in the Pawnshop recording, but the sound is also upfront, natural and unamplified.  I heard live, unamplified jazz at weddings, so I could appreciate these recordings with this live sound as a reference.

Synergy for me, always starts with a scientific approach. Matching the various attributes of components so they match the connecting components on an electronic level. ie, You want to have proper impedance matching of amps and speakers, otherwise you are going to get different results at various frequencies, etc.. once you get the basic proper requirements down, then it becomes more subjective as to what one prefers taste-wise sonically. 
I have heard systems that sound “pleasing” and non fatiguing regardless of the type of music being played. The owner exclaimed total satisfaction and perfect synergy in his system. I silently disagreed, but understood his desire for smooth non fatiguing sound. That doesn’t mean his system lacks synergy, as it is delivering the sound he Prefers.  
i personally have done similar configurations when I was heavy into 50’s big band era. Those blaring horns and strings in some of those recordings would make your ears bleed, I had to reach for the volume when I knew some brass section was going to Fire up.. I had changed out my preamp for something “smoother” which equated to high freq roll off.  That smoothed sound was no longer life like as it affected all aspects of impact, speed and overall timing. Not good synergy but more of a bandaid approach. 

After some time living with this scenario, I realized the essence of the recording was being dulled down artificially and the music wasn’t satisfyingly exciting anymore. 
I have since changed/upgraded much of my system to be more revealing to what’s on the recording. The brittle sounding horns and strings are still brittle and bright sounding, but my ears don’t bleed anymore as I have better matching components creating a synergy that provides a more pleasing “compromise” of music to my ears. 
@viber6  I love hearing tape hiss on my digital recordings, such as jazz at the pawnshop. It shows the recording engineers didn’t muck with the signal too much and that I will get closer to what was originally recorded. I love playing live recordings that sound Live and sometimes harsh. It should be visceral and immediate to capture what real instruments actually sound like!  You have obviously heard enough live sessions to know what you are missing during playback..  I am usually disappointed when playing some classical pieces , knowing what they sound like Live in being there..  but I can get close enough to get lost in the music.. and I now appreciate those raspy horns and bright strings on some of those not so well recorded songs, knowing that most of the intended music is coming though unchanged…

Tough subject..  interesting conversations..

Jay said "neutrality...walks a thin line between enjoyment and disappointment."

Great quote!  I like the analogy of Disney world and synergy too -- out there, but I get it and it works.  Now that you are exploring the merits of neutral equipment it's a shame you never got to try the Benchmark LA4 and AHB2 monos.  If you ever have a whim to try something different for less than $10k it would be very interesting to hear your take on these electronics.  I had just picked up a set about the same time you threw down your challenge, otherwise I would have considered sending them to you.  By far the most neutral equipment I've ever heard, like good class D but with none of its drawbacks.  

I’ve been told by people close to me that the benchmark stuff is good for the money but it’s not at the level of gear we typically have conversations about on this thread.

Jay,

It is possible that people close to you have their inherent biases in favor of expensive equipment.  Truthfully, an expensive amp is more likely to be tops in sound than a cheap amp.  But as you always say, you don't know much until you've owned something and used it for a period of time.  I know you have the integrity not to take advantage of money back 30 day trials, but the worst that could happen is that you review the Benchmark stuff and say it is great for the money and is almost as good as Boulder or Mephisto monos..  More likely, you will find the Benchmarks to be tops for neutrality/clarity, and will wonder that if you wanted to save money for the Wilson XVX/Master Chronosonic, you could do very nicely driving those speakers with excellent Benchmarks.

When I tried the Benchmark AHB2, for the first month it was as good in neutrality and clarity as any amp I tried.  By the 2nd month at the end of my trial, the sound got a little warmer than my Bryston 2.5 B SST2 amp.  You actually might find its very slight warmth appealing to you.  This slight warmth is much less than from typical SS euphonic amps, and possibly the Boulder 2150 which you recently said is a little warmer than your new monos.  Even though you thought my Rouge amp had major shortcomings in HF, over 40% of your YT listeners preferred the Rouge and thought that your mystery amp was euphonic by comparison. I get the feeling from your hints that you new monos (Mephisto monos?) show that the mystery amp was euphonic by comparison to your new monos. 

So I challenge you to put the AHB2 in a dogfight with your new monos and do a blinded shootout.  You won't lose money, and your conscience will be preserved since even Benchmark would welcome the comparison to big buck amps.  They might even use your shootout video or verbal review in their promotions.  I did my 60 day trial of the AHB2 with Music Direct.

"Benchmark stuff ... is almost as good as Boulder or Mephisto monos"

Oh my.  Here we go again, Viber.  Didn't you learn from the Rouge butt-kicking?

To Jay's comment about not being in the same league, I wouldn't be surprised if you found they lacked a little liquidity, or not quite as high in the highs, or had some kind of stridency in the mids compared to the high dollar stuff (just speculative  examples).  But it comes down to *how* good for the money.  You do get what you pay for.  Was it YYZ...  That originally recommended these (can't recall) but ultimately thought you might just find them OK compared to the big boys.  Probably right, but when I said it would be interesting to hear your take on these, again it would be to get a sense of how good for the money are they.  I preferred them in many ways with my Harbeths to the Luxman C/M900, though there was definitely some synergy issues there.  

@viber6 

I understand your bent toward taking someone's comments to make them fit your argument. It is getting old.

I have been to hundreds of concerts; mostly rock but also symphony and jazz shows. I have an intimate knowledge of what live music sounds like. However, I don't believe it is a must to understand that and have an audio system. What you must understand is what you like and then build a system that meets those needs, whatever your experience or preferences. Build your system the way YOU need/want it to sound. And don't be critical of what others systems sound like or what they prefer. There are ways to communicate your likes/dislikes without the being disagreeable. Let us be civil and enjoy sharing what we like. That is the point of this thread. Again, I ask that this thread get back on track.

@viber6 

shootouts are cool and all when I have the equipment in here and own it. For instance, I own transparent and shunyata right now so I can do shootouts with no problem. The issue is when i have use product that I don't own for these comparisons. It's painful, costs $$ (shipping charges that I pay for) and they really don't do much for my YouTube channel. The views are all you need to  know in order to know if people want that or not. 

Most people want to hear what I have to say more than anything (see the views on such videos). 

The shootout I did with your amp was good but once again, take a look at the views... My commentary is what people wanted to know more than anything. Could it be because I'm pretty much the only one in the room? Not sure. 

Part 2: Tomorrow at 12pm.ET

Jay,

You are the master audio businessman.  You've come a long way, baby.  5 years ago, you were listening to mid-fi stuff, and now you are at the SOTA level and with a growing YT following.  You know better than I how to run your YT channel.  So my main contribution to your audio happiness is showing how you can obtain maximum audio pleasure with different components, probably saving lots of money in the journey.  As far as the Benchmark AHB2 goes, several well meaning people have vouched for the outstanding qualities of that amp.  Mikey has gained a great YT presence by recommending cheap, excellent products.  He wouldn't like the neutrality of the AHB2, but you can make a similar YT hit by comparing it to your new neutral amps.

kren0006,

By no stretch of the imagination (except for yours) was my Rouge butt-kicked.  We had this discussion many months ago.  At least 40% of the YT voters preferred the Rouge.  You and Jay preferred his amp.  All that proves is that both of your sonic preferences for a little warmth are consistent with that choice.  Why do you deprecate the preferences of others who voted for the Rouge?  What gives you the nerve to think they don't know what they are talking about?  Jay is more open than you to respecting the choices of others.

But unlike you who say that musical knowledge and experiences have nothing to do with analyzing sound, my experiences give me an understanding of why people have different preferences.  For example, if a classical music or jazz unamplified music listener likes midhall tonal quality, he would tend to choose warmer electronics, speakers, etc.  I respect his musical tastes, just as I respect his choice of a musical instrument to play such as midrange-dominant cello or French horn.  My favorite instrument is the violin, more HF oriented, so I prefer the front row seat. He and I respect each others tastes and agree that those tastes correspond with our audio preferences.

My biggest objection is using artificial recordings and live rock events with bad amps and PA speakers to judge audio.  The worst I've heard here is the Zeppelin video.  The sound is muddy and distorted.  How can anyone judge analog vs digital using that?  How can neutrality, warmth, or anything we discuss here be assessed from that recording?  Anyone who enjoys that music is entitled to their musical pleasure, but why use that recording?  I wouldn't use a 1920 classical recording for audio evaluation, although I appreciate the musical content.  But Jay's music is much more tame than Zeppelin, much better audio quality, and much more useful for assessment of audio components.

It is most useful to use live, unamped music as a reference.  Sit at different distances, and be aware of different mike techniques used to make recordings.  If you build your audio system based on the quest for high fidelity, these experiences are important.  But if the listener just wants sound to please him without any reference to high fidelity to natural music, that's OK for him, but it does take the wonder out of why many of us were attracted to this hobby.  It all started about 120 years ago, when middle class people who couldn't afford to hire live musicians could experience their "likeness" in their homes on demand.  "His Master's Voice" with the dog listening to the horn of the record player was a great promotion for the thrill of fidelity, which got better and better.

I see my name mentioned above somewhere. I love the AHB2 my fav amp by far, but I also love the new KRELL XD amp that I paid for today. The KRELL does not sound anything like the AHB2. 

In the past when I offered up my AHB2 monos for the comparison I said that it likely will not win many hearts on this thread (the KRELL would). One factor was sonic preferences that skew more toward "musical" sound on this thread. The other is that I doubt that the AHB2 monos would be able to drive the big Wilsons that Jay owns. I have heard many Wilsons and they have usually been driven by amps that had more power than the AHB2.

One reason I have gone into the rat hole of buying amps was because I did not like the AHB2 stereo or mono with my Thiel CS3.7 (hard to drive). I am keeping the AHB2 in another system while I got more beefy amps for my Thiel CS3.7.

viber6 - I completely agree that 40% is not at all a butt-kicking!  In fact, it's amazing to me that such an inexpensive amp convinced 40% of folks that it's better than the much more expensive amp.  Yes, it was just YT, but that's all we have at our disposal, unless we want to make the trip to visit WC  :-)

yysantabarbara - which Krell XD model did you get?   Are you using it to drive your Thiels?

Dave

New polling request...

"What qualifies as a butt-kicking?"

The stage is set:

1 challenge with 3 samples taken as a whole.

 Do these combined results qualify as a "Butt-kicking"?  

Interested readers want to know?

The data:

presentation 1:  45-55% -- 20% more for mystery amp

presentation 2:  41-59% -- 45% more for mystery amp

presentation 3:  37-63% --70% more for mystery amp

My vote (and let's all assume...! Krens vote):  BUTT-KICKING.

Put another way:  If you were going to Vegas and playing a game where the long term stats in a game, which side would you bet on and would you play that game a lot?   Would you play any other game!???  Would you bet on the Rouge???:  BUTT-KICKING.

Anyone else want to weigh in?  Viber thinks Kren and I are outliers on this matter?  How do all of you feel?

Are any of you looking to trade in your high dollar amps for Rouge? 

my prediction...:  BUTT-KICKING

Viber, As we have privately discussed.  Your preferences are your own:  not right or wrong.  But your preferences are in the strong minority, at least for people on this thread.  I suspect people that read this thread are less interested in good sounding budget products like the Rouge and--likely--the AHB2.  I think more of us are interested in fantastic SOTA prducts, regardless of whether or not we will be able to ever afford them.  There are dozens of places to read about good sounding budget equipment.  Very few places to read about high end pieces where the reviewers are not beholden to ad revenue or retailer biases (i.e. I like what I sell...).

One David vs. Goliath challenge was fun.  David got crushed.  None of his stone found it's mark.  I want to see Goliath vs. Goliath!  I suspect I am not in the minority of this threads readers.

Let's add a wager to the results:  If the readers of this thread deem the Rouge shootout as a Butt-Kicking then Viber has to restrict his posts to 1 per week for the next 6 months.  If the readers don't agree to Butt-Kicking then Kren and I have to restrict our posts to no more than 1 per week for the next 6 months.

Deal?

Starting score:  Rouge didn't get it's Butt Kicked:  1  BUTT-KICKING:  2

I see, while I was writing and prior to posting that @thezaks does not think that this is a "Butt-Kicking" so that evens things out for the start:

2-2

Oh, and before this goes to far...  are you accepting the wager?

video drops in 30 min

Just watch WC video again on that shootout. There wasn’t a single category that was close. Every single one was a landslide victory. That is a butt kicking. Most could hear it on the video but only one was in the room (WC). It wasn’t just A beats B - it was A destroyed B in every conceivable way - nothing close about it, according to WC. Watch the video again and refresh your memory.

And don’t say it is only because WC likes warm sound, because even in every category that you hold dear, Viber, WC methodically explained that the statement amp destroyed the Rouge - every category, including clarity and everything else.

Butt kicking, per WC.   Sorry.   Watch the video.

@thezaks I got the KRELL Duo 125 XD. I was deciding whether to get the used 300XD available at a local dealer or the new 125XD. I was thinking about getting a KRELL amp to alternate with my CODA #8 on my Thiel CS3.7. I realized that would be a PIA to do. I also love the CODA #8 (will upgrade to the #16 later). So, I went with the 125XD just for my RAAL SR1a headphones. I got a really incredible price for my Parasound A21+ trade-in so the 125XD price is manageable.

I already have the KRELL K-300i integrated in my bedroom and that is the very best sound I have had with the SR1a headphones so getting the KRELL 125XD for my office was an end game move. A little crazy and expensive but I know what I am getting here. I really went crazy with my SR1a gear.

I will be listening to the KRELL 125XD with my CODA 07x preamp which will be perfect with the SR1a. If I had gotten a KRELL 300XD amp for my Thiel CS3.7 (and Sr1a) I would use my Benchmark LA4 preamp, which sits next to the 07x. The 125XD is almost certainly under powered for the Thiel CS3.7. Walter @ Krell told me to get the 300XD if I were to listen on the Thiel CS3.7. He had owned Thiel CS3.6 in the past.

BTW - I am not a huge headphone fan. I am 2 channel all the way. That is what the RAAL SR1a headphones are, 2-channel goodness via headphones without room acoustics to worry about.

My takeaway from the latest video posted (Part 2: Jay's Audio Lab & OCD Mikey debate!) is Mikey enjoys a more laid back, warmer, less detailed presentation that smooths over harsh recordings while Jay prefers a more neutral true to life sound. I think I'm somewhere in the middle of the two.  I've heard systems that can play anything and sound ok, but I agree with Jay that those systems begin to sound homogenous after a while.....again, personal preference.

There is nothing wrong with liking an embellished presentation. Beautification is part of some people's preference in their quest to audio Nirvana. I started my journey with the same requirement but then I realized I got tired of the sound or Sonic qualities so I ended up erasing it from my system. 

Now that I'm walking the neutral path, it's the more interesting path that can also be the most hated one. 

OK, so what happened to Part 2 of the Taiko video?

Coming soon. 

psnyder149,

So, Kren mentions butt-kicking because he thought it was better for his listening taste and because WC thought it was better as well.  You mention Vegas, etc.  I understand those perspectives.

I love basketball, so if the final score is 60-40 or 120-80, yes, that's a butt-kicking.   We can introduce all sorts of perspectives, and I agree with them.

What I'm getting at is that 40% of folks who watched the YT videos actually preferred the less expensive amp - 40%!   To "me", that's a big number.   I believe it shows that there's a variety of listening preferences out there. 

Dave

The thing one must remember is that the price gap isn't equivalent to the gap in performance. I can't stress this enough with regards to audio. 

This whole butt kicking argument is utterly pointless. On one hand, 60/40 is by no means a butt kicking, especially if you take price into consideration. On the other hand, this is over Youtube. What you hear on a Youtube video is not remotely the same as what you would hear a component do in the room. You are not going to hear the difference in refinement, depth, layering, speed, and whatever else. So that 60/40 score is not even valid in the first place. Again, it's a pointless argument.

Reproduction of live musical event is impossible...It is an "illusion"...

I use my history with "timbre voice" perception to control my acoustic settings but i never thought that a recorded piano or voice will sound exactly like a lived piano or voice... Think about the different indefinite possibilities of expression to listen to a voice in different location in a hall...Or in a small room...After that listen to the same voice in a different hall or room...Etc....

This is linked to acoustic recording trade-off choices by the engineer...

Only recreation/translation of the recorded event different in each acoustically different room is possible...

"neutrality" is an audio engineering concept and make sense in this context where standardization of the measuring tools and their results is mandatory....It is not an acoustical concept by definition...

By definition "timbre" perception is a psycho-acoustic subjective event perceptive unique experience... Any voice or instruments express itself in an acoustical environment that cannot be neutral save in an anechoic chamber...And even there our hearing/brain is not "neutral" either....

 I again state, that none of our systems truly replicate live, unamplified music ( and those of you who think that your system does, check your hearing, and go to some live music venues like that ). 

Agree the argument is a little pointless but it only reared after V pulled the giant killer card again and tried to say benchmark amp almost as good as Boulder 2150 and Mephisto. I mean come on that is jibberish not even worthy of debate. 
 

and for the record the only reason I mentioned it was bc of WC’s conclusions bc he was in room. YT is too fallible for all the known reasons to put much stock in any conclusions reached thru it so the 60/40 thing is probably not so telling 

There has never been a more neutral amplifier than the one i am currently using. Not boulder, not constellation, not gryphon essence, not momentum, not NOTHING. 

I will be unveiling it hopefully by the end of the year. It's crazy good but you must have cojones to drive this thing. 

I was watching this bull riding documentary today and this guy named "J.B." is a skinny tall incredible bull rider. You need to be J.B. with this amp. 

@divertit,

It wasn't 60/40...  it was 60/40, 3 times in a row over YT in a double blind test.  And where the better the rest of the system became (i.e. with the Soulution preamp), the more lopsided the result 63/37.  So clear were the differences that even Viber openly recognized and named which was which in all 3 cases but that he "preferred" his amp.  Differences were readily apparent over YT, which ought to mask or obscure them.  Indeed, as Kren reminded us in Jay's assessment. In person, mystery Amp was better in every way.  It ought to be... it cost 20-30x as much.  But this shootout was never about value... that is... the competition was between a cost no object and cheap components with the claim being that cheap killed the giant.  It did not.  Definitively, repeatedly and backed up Jay's buying decision to send it back and... not buy it.  Redundantly...  BUTT-KICKING

@thezaks,

I agree with all of your points.  In fact, I thought that the results would be close to random.  They were far from random.  Of course preferences are individual dependent and there are a wide variety of perspectives.  I suspect that many of the 40% chose the less expensive amp less because of inherent quality but because with the limitations of YT, computer speakers, etc. the apparent brightness probably sounded clearer and more immediate which upon much closer listening through highly resolving headphones or on a highly resolving stereo revealed the distortions and limitations of all but the best Class D amp(s).  My guess is that were they hearing in person, it would be a difference > than 90/10.  Again, Kren's description of Jay's experience wasn't that in some areas 1 bested the other and vice versa and therefore one had to choose which limitations a buyer would accept.  It was that the Rouge was bested in all areas, even if the Rouge sounded better than one might expect.  It was not a giant killer.  It was killed by the giant. 

But isn't that what most of us really want?  If a $10K system, could perform at the level of a $1,000,000 system, there wouldn't be any reason for high end to exist.  Jay is correct, the better you get, the more you have to pay for that incremental improvement, and even then there is always something better... Isn't that what makes this fun and allows for a thread to be on it's 371'st page and more than 5 years running?

psnyder149,

You posed an amusing challenge. But statistics and voting are meaningless on several levels. Take presentation 1, 45% vs 55%. The absolute difference is 10%, but the relative difference is 10/45 = 22%. Take presentation 3, 37% vs 63%, absolute difference of 26%, relative difference of 26/37 = 70%. In the real world of rare diseases with an incidence of 0.1%, suppose a toxin increases the incidence to 0.2%. The media loves to make sensationalist headlines by saying the toxin doubles the incidence, but the actual increase is only 0.1%.

But my nitpicking about proper statistical interpretation is less important than the experience and qualifications of the individual listeners, voters, etc. We’ll never know this crucial information. There were a few YT listeners who actually posted in-depth analyses of what they heard with the Rouge vs mystery amp. The general tone of the in-depth comments was that the Rouge was more detailed, but the mystery amp was more musical. This all came down to preferences only. Butt-kicking is a foolish characterization.. I SLIGHTLY preferred the Rouge, but would not say it butt-kicked the mystery amp. Before the A/B, I believed that Jay’s amp was a euphonic marshmallow by comparison, but after careful listening and being honest, I admitted that they were close, and so did lots of people. I came away liking Jay’s choices, delighting that he also values clarity, with a little warmth added.

Dangerous assessment tools are polls and surveys. They don’t tell much of value. On a plane with 100 passengers, and 2 pilots, who do you trust for your safety? If there are no trained pilots among the passengers, do you let the ignorant 100 passengers outvote the pilots on the proper way to land the plane, or do you trust the minority 2 pilots who know what they are doing?

P.S. I just read Jay’s description of his new king of neutrality amp. I am intrigued. Suppose he did a shootout with this King Neutral amp with the Mystery amp. I bet the people who thought the Mystery amp butt-kicked the Rouge would also find that it would butt-kick the King Neutral amp for the same reason--they just prefer euphonics. That’s still OK, just their preference. My message is that they should not say that A butt-kicks B but just say, "I like A much more than B." That’s honest. Then explain why, which is informative to listeners of all preferences.

But the Mystery amp is gone, so that shootout won’t happen. However, Jay, just please get the Benchmark AHB2, do a shootout between Prince Neutral (AHB2) and King Neutral. Since you now value neutral amps, that would be most meaningful and helpful to all. If you don’t put up the money (although you get it back in a trial for a month), perhaps you can convince jimmy2615 (see the top of this page) who bought the AHB2 and found it delightfully neutral, to send it to you for a listen and then shootout.  Jimmy, you will be appreciated, thanks.

mrdecibel,

Right, but Jay does critical listening at 82 dB, so the lower powered AHB2 will still compete on that level for discernment of the overall character of the amps.  My Rouge has much more balls than my Mytek, but I am back to the Mytek for its greater clarity.  The Mytek is Pascal based; the Rouge is IceEdge.  I am awaiting the Rouge Alauda S2 which uses the most accurate Pascal module and input stage, but pandemic supply chain problems for the parts are holding things up.

thanks for the review Jay, i am on the beginning of my journey and have modest mc 252 and bookshelf Vienna Haydn.i had ML Scenarios that went dull. any recommendations for speakers?

Viber6,

I don’t know if statistical analysis was part of your medical training or not.  It was part of my Economics training and you are incorrect in your conclusion about how I evaluated the statistics.  Absolute difference is meaningless, only relative difference matters.  A difference of 10 out of 20 is huge.  A difference of 10 out of 1M is not statistically relevant, unless with repeated trials the difference was always between 9 and 11.  Vegas thrives on 5-15% because there are billions of samples and the variance is exceptionally small.  So my analysis being based on relative analysis is spot on.

As it relates to your Rouge, even though the trials numbered only 3 and sample size was probably small, the results were relatively stable so it was not inappropriate to focusing on 50% more preferred the Mystery amp…. 

Highlighting your lack of understanding of statistics, using your numbers…Assuming the rare disease toxin was deadly and the rate increased from .1 to .2% equates to a change from 335,000-770,000 deaths in a year in the USA which would equate to an increase in total deaths of 12% and an overall cause of death of 24% (2.85M died in prepandemic 2019 USA).  This would rank above cancer and cardiac arrest, so yes, that would be a big deal…  It would be an even bigger deal if it was centered on Brooklyn… where 20% in a year would be dead… Pretty bad for your long term business!  Interesting note… Covid-19 deaths were around 385,000 last year and this year will be over 425,000.  0-.1% matters.

Although I do agree that most people do not understand statistics, especially as it relates to risk analysis and decision making.  I will also agree that media plays on (or equally suffers from) this lack of understanding resulting in sensationalism.  If you want to further debate statistical analysis, off line please…. 

And finally for your pilot analogy.  Let’s add some additional details:  The 2 pilots are self taught, hijacked the plane and really don’t have any idea what they are talking about but are absolutely convinced they know what they are talking about… there names are psnyder149 and Viber6.  Yes, we are taking this airship down faster than the Hindenburg…

And to everyone’s gratefulness, I am done posting on what I thought would give readers a good chuckle…

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and to an even better 2022 everyone!

Butt kicking is a subjective term. Expectations and context play a role in that term. 60/40 are just numbers. Micheal Jordan and me, one on one. We stop at 100 shots made. Jordan 60. Me 40. Guess who has the bigger smile and has bragging rights?

There is no such thing as a perfect or neutral amp.  All amps change the sound from straight wire.  Have you ever done a straight wire bypass test of an amp?  It is possible to do.  You add an amp in between a preamp and amp and see what how it compares to nothing.  My friend was doing this back in the 70s.  Never heard of anyone doing it since.  So, none of you know what neutral "truly is".  Every thing in the chain has a sound.....including the original recording chain.  You put together a system that makes the sound the way you want or "think" it should be.  High end audio is totally subjective.....totally

I striaght wire bypass tested a silver WBT rca connector and it sounded more detailed than the straight wire.  Viber would choose this in a listening test as the more (neutral) sound.  But it is actually an exaggeration of the upper midrange and lower treble that brings more detail to the fore so it seems more detailed.  The inner detail (reverb trails, etc.) was actually less with the WBT silver RCA jack.

You will never get great sound out of a stock Pascal or IceEdge module.  They were not designed by people who listen to every little thing.  By the way, the Mytek amp uses modified Pascal modules.  The stock IceEdge module (like in Viber's amp) was not worth listening to for very long.  Only after I had spent months tweaking it and the chassis, wire, jacks and footers was I satisfied with the sound.  And yet, a stock or modified LSA amp was greatly preferred to my modded IceEdge. The AGD amps are designed by someone who listens.....this is why they sound so good.  Other relatively inexpensive class D amps that are better than stock IceEdge or Pascal are: modded Purifi, Orchard amps and Cherry amps (also improvable with mods).  Purifi has new higher powered modules coming out in Jan and combined with tweaking and a great discrete input stage will be hard to beat at under $2500 for a stereo tweaked out amp.  Mytek will be releasing a $6K stereo amp using GaNs soon that will be much better than their baby amp that Viber has.....Mytek is also going to release $20K 500 watt a channel mono blocks that should be even better.  This game never ends......just keeps getting better and better and great sound can be attained for modest sums of cash.

Listening tests done through Youtube and listened individually by people at home are not a good way to discern sound quality.  What I value is Jay's opinion....since he is right in the room with the sound.  What we "think about the sound" of his videos is just entertainment.  What I would like is for Jay to get in a new component and then burn it in and do listening tests.....and then make a video review of what he thinks about this new amp or whatever including rating scale.....and then show a few sound clips that demonstrate what he just said in the review.  I don't need no stinkin A/B listening tests.  I trust Jay.  I don't trust Youtube videos and listening to my speakers here and thinking I "know something".

You can have a dozen amps that all seem "neutral".  But still, they all sound different and some of these neutral amps will not have great depth, decay, sustain, inner detail, goose bump factor, air around instruments, natural body of the instrument, etc.  Tonality is just one factor.  The stock IceEdge module does not do very well in the things I just mentioned.  Yet, some like Viber thinks its neutral.  This game every man for himself.   Too bad.....we need to do more sharing.

i wish you all a blessed season of Love.  May you always remember what a blessing life is.  You are worthy, you are always loved.  Joy to the world!

psnyder149,

The absolute difference of 0.1% is much more truthful and relevant than a relative difference of 100%.  That is true regardless of the entity you are evaluating.  Certainly, covid deaths are most serious, and even 0.1% is nothing to ignore.  But the headline 100% difference sounds a lot more serious than it really is.  But the important thing I said is that statistical manipulations distort the truth.  Your analogy of the 2 self taught delusional pilots deliberately distorts what I was trying to say.  The point is that if you have 2 competent pilots, they are in the minority, but they better serve the passengers than the 100 incompetent passengers in the majority.  

For audio assessment at the highest level, I look to speak to people knowledgeable about music and technical audio, and who have the necessary live unamplified music experience to support that.  My knowledge and experience is certainly not complete, so I want to hear from other competent people who play other instruments, go to concerts in halls I've never been in, etc.  If I can find 5 such people, that gives more reliable objective assessment of components than 500 people who only listen to processed rock/pop and are not interested in high fidelity.  If one is not interested in high fidelity, but rather what sounds good, try to gain useful information from such listeners about why they like something.  All you'll get is some vague assertion that he likes it but doesn't know why, or what the natural real sound of the instrument is.  He has much less real knowledge than a few people who really have expertise.  I am delighted to read the impressions of a new poster, mikem, who knows what he is talking about.  No, I don't like him merely because he has my tastes, but because of the way he describes natural music and his experiences with components of different sonic qualities.

Jay is an excellent, perceptive listener, so even though he is not one of the top musical experts I would like to meet, he has lots of experience with many levels of components, and I agree with his observations if not always with his preferences.  Now he is realizing the supreme importance of neutrality, perhaps partially due to my prodding, but more important his own careful listening which has confirmed my position on this matter.  His experience and judgment which I have verified means that I have come to trust his objective findings.  He is much more informative to me than 500 readers of this thread who don't have the experience to reliably judge sound.  

So much for the flawed harping on statistics.  More generally, do you value a few trusted friends, or do you crave 1000's of acquaintances as a politician would?  Always go for quality rather than quantity in everything you do in life.

“baby amp that Viber has”

ricevs comes out firing!

Thank you Viber for saving us from warm fuzzy components. Without your expertise and wisdom we would not know a tic from a tac......seriously, please raise your hand if Viber has helped you get better sound from your stereo. We all contibute the best we can. What is the best from/for you.....and you....and you? Look in the mirror.....everything is a reflection. Whatever you put out....you get back. Do you need attention and love? You won’t find it here......at least not the kind of pure love and attention you really need. We really need to seriously (with joy) love each other so deeply that we stop playing these (I know what I am talking about) games. Love heals everything. Sing and dance......Enjoy and love....Being right is so overrated.....you get nothing from it. I should know.....I still do it sometimes and there is NO.....I mean NO payoff.