My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Grannyring, OK, but what do you mean by "Don’t think the “giant killers” get as close as the amps Jay is reviewing?" Specifically, how about, "as close as?" Close to what? To me, maybe you, "close" means high fidelity to the original sound, which means as much transparency as possible. However, to listeners who don't strive for transparency/accuracy, "close" may mean close to their heart, soul, etc. Actually, since I love music, I also want it to be enjoyable, close to my heart. The difference is that most regulars here are not familiar with classical music, and specifically how much more complex it is than rock, pop, etc. Looking at the printed score (written music) of a classical piece shows many more details than anyone has ever heard both live and on an audio system. I am still learning more of these details and nuances every time I hear a piece again. The more I appreciate, the more the music is closer to my heart. My enjoyment is correlated with better understanding of the music, which can only come with hearing more details of it.
Logydoghan, The reviewer JVS likes warm sound in general, so he gravitates to D'Agostino. His assessment of the G Essence is in the context of his warmish preferences. More informative was your own assessment that the G Essence is a bit warmer than the Nagra Classic, which itself you found to be somewhat warm with tubelike character. I think it would be enlightening if you try the Benchmark AHB2 to see what I and yyzsantabarbara are talking about when we rate it tops for neutrality and clarity. When I had the AHB2 on trial, I was comparing it to my unique Bryston 2.5B SST2, as the most neutral amp with clarity of any amp I tried (other higher powered SST2 and earlier Brystons were mediocre, some at the midfi sound quality level). Up to about 3 weeks, the AHB2 had a slight lead over the 2.5B SST2 for clarity. After that, the AHB2 got more rounded and warmer, but I still rated it high. I rejected it because it couldn't drive my low impedance electrostatics as well as even my little 2.5B SST2, and it ultimately lost the transparency contest anyway by a hair. See what you think.
Perhaps before you started posting here, I talked about the differences between appreciating live instruments vs audio systems. As a violinist, I have spent some time playing about 13 Strads, 500 other great 16th through 19th century violins, as well as a few thousand mediocre violins that I didn't want to play for more than a few seconds. The great violins were all different, like people. Each had character, but it isn't appropriate to speak about a natural instrument's transparency. I just strive for an audio system to be as transparent as possible to the original character of the instruments and voices. The live instrument has character, but the ideal audio system shouldn't impose its own character on the intrinsic natural character of the real music.
I don’t think Dan is warm either. If he really likes warmth he should go for Burmester or Mcintosh, let alone tubes. JVS uses mostly solid state I believe. dCS is also very transparent. There is a category of transparency but still musical.
Why do you think an instrument can have a character. But electronics shouldn't? I think we have figured out the measurement of a Strad. But still can't replicate the sound from it. To most of the audiophiles, or even pianist who doesn't play a violin, speakers/amplifiers/turntables are our instruments. And turntables too, they all have a character as well. Some prefer heavy ones (VPI), some like the light ones (Rega)... again, both very neutral, but have different characters and philosophies behind them.
I believe you really should send your Bryston to Jay for a shoot out. It doesn’t matter if his or yours sound better. But to really promote it you need to do an A/B testing and let everyone hears it. Maybe the end result will be Bryston or Benchmark is really really good for the price, very close to the high-end gear. That way a lot of people, who love music like yourself, but don’t want to go crazy like us, would purchase a Benchmark or Bryston.
I think a lot of the giant killer pushers like Viber have probably never heard a state of the art system, and perhaps are afraid to lest it burst their bubble of giant killer nonsense (Rane/Bryson/Mytek/zip/etc/).
That is being proven by their run and hide reaction to Jay’s challenge. Either that, or they know their crazy boasts “better than 90% of stuff on WC channel”, “boat anchors”, are just garbage. The light is shining on them and exposing that they have no clothes. If that’s not right, then send the giant killers in and prove me wrong.
If he has heard SoTA systems and still thinks his gear that he brags about all the time here sounds better than WC’s, well then draw your own conclusions about his ability to assess audio.
Send them in. Let’s hear how they sound on WC’s channel with his SoTA gear. Don’t be afraid. WC paying shipping both ways. Maybe they really are that good? But let’s hear them, come on
@jays_audio_lab I am not sure what speakers you currently have but if they do not go down to 2 Ohm then I can offer my Benchmark AHB2 monos to you for a listen. This will have to happen once I get my Voyager back from the mods.
I can also send the 10 foot Benchmark speaker cables with the SpeakON connections, This is Benchmark’s preferred amp connection. I also have my preferred 3 foot Audience FrontRow speaker wire with SpeakON connections for these amps. The guys at Purifi also recommend SpeakON.
BTW - I got this from the DAC shootout thread. The Bozzio Levin Stevens - BLACK LIGHT SYNDROME is great rock instrumental music and something I plan to use when demoing gear.
I recently sold a 3rd AHB2 I had to a guy who kept it only for 2 days. He hated it and wanted more warmth in his sound. These are no Giant Killers as you can see but I love these amps by a large margin.
This thread always seems to devolve to this and that’s too bad. When a person does not have experience with the gear being discussed, it leaves them no room to validly comment nor credibility with others. That’s why I don’t chime in on gear I’ve never heard. -It'd sure be nice for this thread to get back on track.
@yyzsantabarbara , Jay can use your amps without bridging them to mono, use 1 channel in each so the power supply is available for just 1 channel to boost power w/o having to bridge, this makes the low impedance load of the XLFs easier for the amp to drive. I sure hope the AGD owner here will send Jay his Audions for a week, and yyz's Ric modded Voyager could be a contender.
From Benchmark: DIFFICULT SPEAKER LOADS ARE HANDLED WITH EASE
Many loudspeakers have frequencies at which their impedance drops to levels that are much lower than the "nominal" impedance. The AHB2 drives difficult phase angles and low impedances with ease. Stereo loads as low as 1.4 Ohms can be cleanly driven to full output levels. Most power amplifiers produce higher levels of distortion when the load impedance decreases. In contrast, the feed-forward error correction system in the AHB2 keeps the output clean when driving difficult loads. The AHB2 produces almost no measurable distortion at any rated load condition.
The room is toasty, the amplifiers are at 158F and 152F respectively. The XLRs seem to be broken in and so is the valhalla 2 USB. No music server, no special speaker cables and yet i believe this might be the very best my XLF have sounded? -Monstrous soundstage -check -Imaging that makes it feel as if you were listening to two separate speakers
-Clarity
-Insane musicality -Subwoofer bass - not woofer bass
-Depth for days -
Is this really happening? Am i really hearing this in here? Can I even make a bold statement such as these monos are perhaps the best I’ve heard in here? I’m not prepared to put that in writing with my signature on it but i am quite IMPRESSED...
sounds fantastic wc. eager for the reveal. valhalla 2 usb. very nice. enjoying mine bw server/streamer and dac but am looking forward to trying others that perhaps surpass based on direct comparisons that have been done by others. how do u measure amp temps or built in gauge? interesting they would run differently
From Benchmark: DIFFICULT SPEAKER LOADS ARE HANDLED WITH EASE
Many loudspeakers have frequencies at which their impedance drops to levels that are much lower than the "nominal" impedance. The AHB2 drives difficult phase angles and low impedances with ease. Stereo loads as low as 1.4 Ohms can be cleanly driven to full output levels. Most power amplifiers produce higher levels of distortion when the load impedance decreases. In contrast, the feed-forward error correction system in the AHB2 keeps the output clean when driving difficult loads. The AHB2 produces almost no measurable distortion at any rated load condition.
Before I bought the AHB2’s, I spoke with the designer of the AHB2, talked with AHB2 owners on A’gon about the monos and then made the purchase. Once I had them on my Thiel CS3.7 in a small room no less. They sounded clear, smooth, and beautiful but there is no grunt or bass behind the sound. I put 4 other amps afterwards on this speaker that were rated at 2 Ohms for continuous power delivery. They all made the speaker come alive. I thought the AHB2 sound was still preferred but the other amps made the speakers sound much bigger.
These amps had enough power for my Thiel CS3.7: - CODA #8 (current amp) - KRELL K-300i (new XD design and my headphone amp) - LSA Voyager (getting modded) - D-Sonic M3a 800s (traded-in for Voyager)
The AHB2 mono can go down to 2,5 ish Ohm for short burst but not continuously so that is why they are not officially rated for 2 Ohm. The AHB2 stereo is officially rated at 2 Ohm but it is not a lot of power (under 300 watts). My speaker eats power. Depending on the power profile of the Wilsons they maybe OK with the AHB2.
So I speak from personal experience on the AHB2 monos and stereo with low impedance speakers.
I have no problem sending in the AHB2 and/or Voyager. It will be fun to hear another perspective.
Excellent! 200 hours is the low -end starting point for Cabling. Upwards of 500 hours will reveal so much more Aural information. I am looking forward to the 1st video.
Yyzsantabarbara is incredibly generous with his offer to send Jay his AHB2's and ricevs-modded Voyager GaN amps. His assessment of the AHB2 is authoritative due to his experience with it. It is in the transparency/accuracy camp whereby there is a sacrifice in grunt and fullness, which I also found from my 30 day experience with it. I predict that Jay will vastly prefer the Voyager to the AHB2, since the stock Voyager has been well described by yyz and the other owners to be on the warm side with still excellent detailed sound AND with grunt and power. We don't know yet what ricevs' mods will do to the Stock Voyager sound, but Jay will likely scratch his head and say to himself, "boy, this is THE BEST $3800 (with Ric's mods) amp, and may challenge the supremacy of the G Essence below $25K." Personally, I would still try a single stereo AHB2 as well as monos. The monos will do better on very dynamic music, but for 82 dB music, the stereo might have greater purity when grunt isn't needed. Then again, the monos have more trouble at very low impedance loads, so it is not guaranteed that the XLF with its low impedance in the bass would be comfortable with the mono AHB2, especially since bass is where lots of power is useful for certain music.
Still, it is respectable for Jay to devote himself to his unique business interests of his YT channel presenting and discussing expensive equipment that few have seen or heard. All of my comments to him are suggestions for his own personal enjoyment, outside of his business interests.
The Benchmark has been around for awhile and sounds good but is it SOTA?? From personal experience it's not even on the same playing field as Jay's latest amps, for me it misses the magic that i'm accustom to. In it's price range it's excellent but that range is entry level, sorry.
Logydoghan, Good question from you, "Why do you think an instrument can have a character. But electronics shouldn't?"
I thought I already answered this, but I can add a few more insights. All electronics have various types of distortion, both by objective measurements and subjective sound. These deviations from the classic concept of a "straight wire with gain" constitute the character of the electronics. Benchmark caters to people like me who don't want electronic character, but who seek as much transparency as possible. The musical instrument has the character, but if an audiophile seeks character in the electronics, they are changing the character of the musical instrument, more than the audiophile who wants to hear the character of the instrument as closely as possible.
If I lived close to you, I could come over and demonstrate what a violin (the only instrument I play) sounds like at different distances, close and further away, in different halls and rooms, etc. I don't know how much intimate experience you have hearing instruments close up--the average concertgoer who sits in a hall further away has little idea of what the instrument really sounds like, as best approximated by microphones placed close; i.e., what its true character is, without the overlay of hall acoustic smearing from distance, hall floors with carpet, soft wooden walls, etc. The natural resolution and detail of any natural instrument is in another world compared to most audio systems. The natural character of the musical instrument is in an archaeological domain that when attempted to be reproduced by an audio system, is buried by the veiling distortion of speakers and electronics. The audiophile hears live unamplified music presented with clarity, and he wonders if it is sweet/warm OR cold/sterile, etc. The answer is that it is neither. It is akin to being in present day Israel, and understanding that there were several past civilizations buried under your feet, but being totally unable to tell what they were. What is desirable is to excavate as an archaeologist, and recognize/understand what used to be invisible. That is what I feel like when hearing a typical audio system. I know the original music from all my musical background and experience, so I am like an audio archaeologist whereas the audiophiles with minimal real world unamplified musical experience are like the tourists who can only perceive what the veiled/distorted system shows them.
A person who plays a violin is used to hearing it at a very close range - inches, instead of feet. The audience is never that close, even in an intimate setting. So, I can understand where an instrument player, like a violinist, might prefer sonics that more closely resemble what they are used to hearing - closeness and extreme clarity. Anyone else might prefer sonics that resemble the sound from the distance of an audience - some prefer what is heard from more upfront/intimate seating and others prefer a little further back. So, I would not say that sonics from the audience perspective are "veiled" necessarily - because they can be very accurate for that specific location - taking into account the hall, the folks in their seats, the materials in the room, etc. Even studio recordings might have certain amounts of effects and EQ applied - so sonic accuracy would reflect the intent of the recording. Anyway, looking forward to seeing what WC has cooking :-) Dave
I agree with both of you. And we all know that every sound/record engineer has already put his/her own preference into the recordings. Therefore, perhaps, what we have heard is already far from the truth. At the end of day, when we listen to music we just want to hear what we like. I have a smaller turntable system which I would love to put tubes on it because the turntable itself is already pretty distorted. I know it is far from the truth and doesn't sound like the real deal. Most of the instruments I have heard are actually pretty bright if we think about it... I believe we have all heard what damage a violin beginner can cause :)
I just think the capitalism in the US is pretty efficient and can expose most of the snake-oil by its market equilibrium. If someone charges a high price to a product, I think that they know what they are doing and they know the market pretty well.
Love to see the AHB vs Hign-end comparison. We may be surprised about the result. I don't think it can compare with the Essence though. Essence is really different from anything on the market. It is pretty revealing but with that magical airy touch that nobody can replicate...
thezaks, You're right, except for one crucial point. Recordings are made with the main microphones close up, about like the 1st row in the hall. A listener is entitled to "like" the sound from mid hall, but if they are interested in high fidelity/accuracy, they would benefit from listening from the 1st row to provide a reference point to the recording of that music. There are many reviewers who state they love their mid hall seat, and then say that the sound on their audio system is like that mid hall seat. If that is true, then the system is inaccurate, because it would sound like the 1st row if it were accurate. The above assumes that EQ and processing are minimal to absent, as with most classical music recordings.
BTW, some time ago you said you like hearing the guitar from a medium distance of 10 feet or so. I noted that this is fine concerning personal preference for distance (sometimes I like this also), but asked you whether you believed that this medium distance should be as clear as possible. I think it is fine to have a medium distance preference, but maintain that it shouldn't sound less clear, just as it is not desirable to mumble words, but better to say what you want clearly. Music is a complex message of sounds. Classical is often an extremely complex message, so I seek maximum clarity. How about you?
Logydoghan, You said, "I know it is far from the truth and doesn't sound like the real deal. Most of the instruments I have heard are actually pretty bright if we think about it... I believe we have all heard what damage a violin beginner can cause :)."
Exactly what I am saying. That's why I strive for maximum clarity/transparency, to capture much of the brightness/brilliance of live musical instruments. And you are right that beginner violinists can sound unpleasant. If I had 20 more lifetimes, I could practice to hear all my favorite violin pieces the way I want, but it is less stressful and more real-world practical to listen to great violinists' recordings and try to make them sound as brilliant and lifelike as possible.
audiophil88, The Hegel H20 is one of the amps I have recently considered. My dealer recommended it as the most neutral/transparent amp he carries. Although the product came out years ago, at around $6K it probably represents great value. I didn’t get around to trying it, because IceEdge class D and ricevs’ mods caught my attention.
My stock Rouge Audio IceEdge 1200 AS1 (well under $2K) is shaping up to be probably at least as good as the similar custom IceEdge PS Audio M1200, but without the warmth associated with the PSA. Mike Fremer found the PSA to have extraordinary detail, and couldn’t think of any amp anywhere near its $6K price to equal its exciting clarity. For bass power and tightness, he thought even a Boulder was no better, although his comments about that were based on memory of when he had it in his system, not from a side by side A/B.
viber6, I understand the logic you are presenting, however, I don’t think we can say absolutely that recordings are always made with microphone close up. Even if that were to be the case, the engineer can always add echo/reverb/eq, etc, and the engineer can also have instruments at different volumes from each other - the end result is the desired effect from the engineer, not an absolute isolated/raw recording of an instrument from up close. I agree with what logydoghan mentioned: "At the end of day, when we listen to music we just want to hear what we like. " Because recordings have an Engineers/Artists touch on them, accuracy, when listening to recordings on audio systems, is in the eye (ear/heart/brain) of the beholder.
Jay visits Suncoast audio and here’s a sneak peek at the upcoming video. You don't want to miss the full 3 part video. Lots of interesting talk between Mike and myself!
thezaks, Certainly you are right about the many variables in recordings. Some have a close perspective, others have a more distant one with lots of ambience. There are the engineers with their processing effects. This is why classical recordings with their minimal processing can eliminate that variable.
But it is not correct to say that "ACCURACY is in the eye of the beholder." If you sit in the 1st row at a live unamplified concert, see that the mikes are near where you sit, talk to the engineer who tells you he is not processing the mike feed, then go home and listen to the recording, you can judge whether the audio system is a reasonable facsimile of what you heard in the 1st row.
One may LIKE the sound from the 15th row as one looks at the much closer mikes nearer the musicians, and then say the correct thing that "BEAUTY is in the eye of the beholder." My experience of the 15th row is that the sound is so murky and dull compared to the 1st row, that I would rather hear the recording on most any audio system even with all the processing and euphonic electronics.
I'll ask you again whether you want maximum clarity at whatever distance you prefer.
Viber Another thing to consider is how the composer wanted it to sound. Should a symphony be heard as a collection of different instruments or should they all be blended together which is the sound from the 15th row
If you want 1st row experience and accuracy, then you need the XLF to really give you that right? A 6-inch bookshelf can never give you the real sound produced by a bass or a drum… let alone organ, taiko, etc…
Ok I was just told that the AGD amp will not be sent to me. This means, we have zero offers to send any product to me. It’s September and my offer runs through the end of the month. After that, i won't be entertaining more of this because my system will begin to take shape
shannere, Good point about a symphony. The 1st row emphasizes the detail of individual instruments, and shortchanges the overall perspective of sitting further back. Several times at the same concert, I tried many locations. The 15th row certainly blended all the sounds together, but every sound was murky and dull. What good is blending when every instrument is equally dull with no separation? Some people have told me the 12th row is their ideal for overall sound. I moved up to the 3rd row, and perhaps this was the best compromise between balance of all instruments and enough detail for each. I admit that I am spoiled by my very close experiences as a performer, where the sound on stage makes even the 1st row sound way less exciting.
Another problem is large orchestras on a deep stage. Just prior to covid, I attended a concert of big pieces. The cymbal and other percussion were in the back row on that deep stage. I knew that piece very well, so when the cymbal crash came, I was horrified by the extreme murkiness which was caused by the great distance to anyone in the audience, as well as all the reverberation coming from the great distance. The worst lowfi audio system with euphonic electronics has more clarity playing a mediocre recording with lots of processing, than this live cymbal crash. But the string instruments close to the stage edge near me had excellent brilliance and clarity. Some small chamber orchestras perform on a shallow stage with only a few rows on stage, and even sometimes spread out like a crescent moon in a single row which is close to the edge of the stage. This is the ideal situation--maximum right/left separation and closer distance to any audience member, so clarity of individual instruments is maximized. For those sitting in the 3rd to 5th row, they have good overall balance, and still maintain excellent clarity by hearing and seeing the enhanced separation.
Logydoghan, The small minimonitor speaker is ideal for small scale chamber music such as string quartets, trios, piano trios, acoustic guitar/jazz with limited bass extension, in a smallish room. One should figure out the main type of music listened to, look at room size, and then choose the appropriate speaker. In Jay's room, perhaps the larger XVX and Master Chronosonic are too big, so the XLF is the best match for his room and favorite music. A nice aspect of the XLF is that it has the brilliant HF of certain minimonitors and a small number of electrostatics/ribbons/planar magnetics, as well as powerful bass for certain music.
Jay, Yyz offered to send you his AHB2 once he gets back his modded Voyager, which should be soon. Then his modded Voyager. This is a rare opportunity to hear two superb cheap amps, so be a little patient. If there are further delays from yyz, at any time you can swap all the amps.
Hi Viber, I've received a few messages from people and here's one for example:
"Hi Jay, just an FYI, I'm loosing interest in this thread because viber6 keeps derailing it - he uses it as a chat room. I now just pass his posts but it can be hard to know what the few others are talking about due to lost context. Not sure how you can disrupt him, but he adds nearly nothing, and that is being generous. Really like what you are doing, but this thread is very hard to read (I've followed since nearly the beginning - I have experience with a lot of the upper tier stuff, but not the more current batch of stuff you've had so I don't comment since I can't speak with any authority). Meant for this to be short, oh well."
I'd like to politely ask if you can use more private messages when it comes to ongoing conversations that might not exactly be aligned with the thread? I'm not saying you can't post - but please keep what I said in mind.
Having known David and hearing his son talk about him almost brought tears to my eyes it was spot as to who his father was. During the time that we both had upstart speaker company's we never thought of each others as competitors but friends. Even though he had his views he was humble in expressing them, he never gave you the impression that he knew more than you. Something sorely missing today.
I was lucky to own the original Wamm's which i helped in the formula to set them up, i have owned Wilson's continuous since 1981
Jay, I understand your position. My posts may seem irrelevant to many people, but not to a minority of readers who recognize my experience and do see the relevance of it to anyone's quest for better sound from their systems. They have reasonable questions about what I say, are polite about it, so I respond.
Shannere had good questions of me, and I promise to be as brief as I can. One problem with private messaging is that your name is revealed. I do PM with a small number of people who I can trust.
Shannere, I forgot to mention that the best position in the hall is the symphony conductor who is standing close in the middle of it all. He hears the best detail of all the individual players, as well as the totality of the ensemble sound. Years ago, I got inspired by all this, and made great recordings with the 2 microphones in ORTF configuration right behind the conductor's head.
rh67, If you are 67, I am older than you. Share your venerable experience on any audio forum, even if some of it may seem off topic to some people who just want specific advice on components. As for the golden age, some recordings of Caruso and other artists sound very immediate, because they sang directly into the horn and later with electrical recording, the mikes were close. Even if HF were diminished, there was palpable excitement.
Well, I have finally received my speaker cables yesterday and i gotta say that these are THE BEST SPEAKER CABLES i have ever heard through my XLF. Ladies and gentlemen, those of you who don’t believe in cables are in for a great surprise.
@viber:
Give it a rest. If you feel that the back and forth is going to be ongoing with others in regards to a specific topic and you know you would like to articulate your thoughts to them by writing long posts then just take to private messages or open up a new thread. I’m trying to be as nice as possible and again, im letting you know the sentiments of some people who are regulars here. I’m not saying by any means that you should not contribute. If the topic of the thread is about building powerful engines, repeated posts about building transmissions isn’t too far off but it isn’t exactly aligned with the main discussed topic. I’m not being a d!CK either so don’t take offense. I rather you keep grilling me about giant killers 😂 (just don’t overdo it )
Anyhow, when the hell are any of you going to show your face to me on a zoom call? I feel like i gotta a lot of regulars here that don't want to show their face. Damn, i don't bite folks 😆
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