My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
It sounds like you got into the Alexandria XLF at a good entry point, and it’s pretty clear based on initial reaction that it’s the best speaker you’ve had, and you haven’t even properly set it up and dialed the timing adjustments in. Although with Viber gushing about it makes me little nervous (only kidding).
For those reasons, and because each time you’ve switched from Wilson you’ve been underwhelmed, you really should keep these long term (as you suggested you might) as a reference and then just go on with the channel bringing other stuff in (including other speakers).
I’m not the first to say this (many others have, including ricevs), but that seems like it would make so much sense. Easy for us to say of course because it’s not our money.
On the Dave v Darryl comments, I wouldn’t sleep on Darryl. Everything he’s touched starting with DAW and since has been off-the-charts acclaimed. Taking it to next level. So yeah, there’s an upgrade path to ascend higher. Not a cheap upgrade path, but a path ...
unfortunately, if i decide to keep these for longer, i won’t be bringing more speakers (most likely) because it is impossible to fit more speakers in here and moving the XLF is pretty much shifting my carpet all over the place. It is hard as hell to move them around so i think i probably won’t be having more speakers in here.
No need for more or different speakers, I guess, these Wilsons will serve perfectly as full range monitors. I like the fact that Jay's room size is realistic, many people do or can have similar rooms. So, up until now the best sounds were Wilson Alexx/Boulder monos and Magico M6/Gryphon Essence monos. Let's see where it goes next. Just please stay with monoblocks, stereo has no place at this level, and in my mind - never.
Outstanding as I expected. Here’s an excerpt from Fremer’s Stereophile review of the Alexx, comparing to his XLF.
"The Alexx was notably more transparent than the Alexandria in the midrange: faster, cleaner, better focused, more resolving—and, to my ear, flatter. Central images were more reach-out-and-touch-it transparent—more like what electrostats deliver, but with all the dynamic slam and ability to play loud for which Wilson speakers are famous.
The Alexx also produced a more relaxing and resolved yet faster top end than the Alexandrias. This wasn’t surprising, given the change from a three-way to a four-way design, in which the tweeter takes over at a higher frequency and is thus relieved of the burden of reproducing the upper-midrange frequencies."
As you say, what was he smoking? The opposite of what we find. You can demonstrate this for us by comparing to the videos I reposted on p 302. Even the Alexx had more snap than the M6 there. You can record that same song, I believe "Iron Hand" using the DCS dac as on p 302. We will see that the XLF has much more snap and clarity than the Alexx, and completely wipes out the M6. Do the same for the other recordings you made with the Alexx using the DCS or the MSB for a particular song.
One way Fremer could be right is if he used the tuning resistors to make the Alexx more brilliant and the XLF more laid back. We don’t know. Or, you could now have the tuning resistors set for more brilliance on the XLF and the resistors on your Alexx set for more laid back. Only you know what adjustments you made. I suspect that the variations in the resistor settings are much less than the variations from my Rane EQ. If the resistor settings produce only subtle variations, then Fremer is way off.
A second way Fremer could be right is if he was careless about time aligning the upper drivers of the XLF long ago when he had it, but then properly time aligned the drivers later for his Alexx. Time alignment is most important for clarity and focused imaging. Correct time alignment can make a large speaker sound focused, as you are now finding with the XLF.
I only mentioned the M6 because of the available comparative videos between M6 vs Alexx, and M6 vs XLF. Alexx is significantly clearer than M6, and XLF blows away the M6, so I am reasonably sure that the XLF is significantly clearer than Alexx, but only A/B's of XLF vs Alexx on the same song will tell for sure. Even if the amps are different in this comparison, differences between amps are much less than between speakers.
Here's a short video that shows how much fun classical music can be. This is a popular dance called czardas, arranged for piano, 2 violins, clarinet. The performers are all young, attractive superstars having fun.
Thanks for the XLF tour--interesting. I hope you can gain access to the rear panel controls for tweeter, midrange, woofer level adjustments. More fun, very useful.
This is why A/B's should be done side by side with volumes matched. Turn down the volume on the XLF a little to compare with the Alexx. The Alexx is really quite respectable compared to the XLF. The Alexx is a little veiled and less detailed than the XLF for the female voice in midrange/HF. The voice is slightly cloudy on the Alexx vs XLF. I was so enthusiastic about the XLF in comparison to the M6, which was hopelessly dark and veiled. After suffering through the cloudy, dreary weather of the M6, the sunshine came out with the XLF. But the Alexx and XLF are close enough so I could see an Alexx owner playing with the resistors to obtain midrange/HF clarity comparable to the XLF. Conversely, if the XLF adjustments were to increase the level of the midrange driver and decrease the tweeter level, I would probably prefer the Alexx in that case. But with flat positions of all the drivers on the Alexx and XLF, I would prefer the XLF. Just speculating.
All in all, both are great speakers with wonderful capabilities for sound optimization. Any great deal for either used speaker would be a sensible long term purchase. Wilson is the greatest dynamic speaker company. I wouldn't bother with the Magico M9, which is likely to be similar to the M6, just as the M3 had similar dull sound as the M6. Forget about Sonus Faber Aida, which is likely to be a warm, dull, forgiving speaker like other SF models I have read about. OK, we have learned our lesson about taking reviews as gospel, but Fremer still is correct about the overall excellence of Wilson, even if Jay and I differ with him on the XLF vs Alexx rating.
I respect Michael's work. That said, i don't have to agree with everything he reviews. There is always the possibility that his dartzeel monos weren't quite as pure sounding in the mids as the essence gryphon and the XLF communicated this to home. Too many ways to interpret his findings such as his room, cabling, components etc. I don't feel i need more vocals. They sound great to me and the bass is fuller even at low volumes.
A good album for bass on the XLF is Soul Circus by Victor Wooten also a great sounding album is Pine Needle Fire by Randall Bramblett. These are musical albums for the enjoyment of music and come to life on the Wilsons.
Hello everyone, I haven’t posted on this thread for about a year, and am still trying to get caught up the last 90 days. (Extremely busy 2020 for me) Right now I am still only up to December 2020, but after hearing Jay’s new speakers, I thought I had to post.
Jay don’t take this the wrong way, you’ve had some really good setups in your listening room, but the XLF’s you have are just on another level. They are the first speaker to really blow me away. One of my local dealers has these in his showroom, so for those of you who think these sound spectacular on Jay’s channel, they are even better in person. The soundstage is huge, edgeless and effortless. The presentation is just beautiful. When you listed to these you can’t even analyze them because they just draw you into the music. 🤩🤩🤩
PS- See you guys again soon once I get caught up... 😄😄😄
I just finished reading Jay’s Christmas eve and day posts where one of our friends on the thread was arguing with Jay. On Christmas no less, after Jay decided to take the time to post something on YouTube for everyone.
If you came here expecting it to be Mr. Rogers Neighborhood you came to the wrong place. Would be entertaining thou to see Jay try to fit into one of those sweaters and sing to us before the start of every video.
DLETCH is also posting under about 10-12 other names in case you didnt know it. He made 455 posts in a 3 week period under this name then disappeared under a different alias again. Your the same guy who was arguing post after post that there was 2 Techno Dudes and he couldnt possibly be using 2 different ID's....There was a Techno_Dude Imposter!! LOL Yea guess you were wrong about that huh? Next time he will come back with 3 Underscores between his name and you'll say there are now 2 imposters. :)
Jay, There are very few videos on YT that approach what you have presented with Wilsons. The only one I could find is this presentation by Peter McGrath of the Master Chronosonic.
It is clear from several musical selections that this speaker is the absolute finest dynamic speaker. Both Peter McGrath and Dave Wilson made superb recordings and knew their musical stuff. There is no other company to do a better job with time alignment. That was Dave's lifelong quest, and he succeeded. My pet peeve about electrostatic and planar magnetic/ribbon speakers is that none of them incorporate time alignment.
Since the flagship Chronosonic is unaffordable, how can you come close, or even BETTER its performance? I would suggest boosting the tweeter output as we saw on your video. Even just a small 1-3 dB boost will increase the overall clarity and spaciousness of the XLF. The XLF uses the same tweeter as the flagship, and the other drivers are almost as good as on the flagship. With a few speakers, I have found that even small boosts of HF go a long way towards benefitting the complete tone of all instruments and voices. Small boosts of HF will not make the speaker sound tizzy or harsh, but will make the overall benefits much greater than any slight perceived brightness. If you look at John Atkinson's measurements of the XLF at Mike Fremer's home, there was a reduction from 2-4 kHz, so this gives justification for experimentation by boosting the tweeter. If this isn't possible, then a slight reduction of the midrange while keeping the tweeter at 0 dB accomplishes a lot of the effect. One of the wonderful aspects of the XLF is the use of the tweeter down to 1 kHz, which lets the midrange drivers do what they specialize in. Wilson doesn't reveal the crossover points in the other speakers, and we don't know if the flagship's tweeter is used down to 1 kHz.
It is remarkable that the XVX and the flagship use smaller woofers than the XLF. I would predict that the XLF would have more powerful bass than these other speakers, so even a bass lover like you notes that bass is quite powerful in your room. I wonder if sealing both the front and rear bass ports would still produce satisfactory bass even if it is reduced. In that way, the midrange might be clarified even more. See what you find.
you can not "choke" both ports... Before i embark on boosting anything on the speaker i need to get my panels here (hopefully this week) and also spike the speakers so that the entire speaker sits lower and not as high as it currently is with casters on. Once that is done THEN i can explore with adjustments.
Gryphon Essence stereo amp & Wilson Audio Alexandria XLF playing a song that has been on my channel since the beginning of time: https://youtu.be/vFmC1V-FetM
This sounds so terribly digital that I can't understand what this half a million dollar equipment is for. But, regardless, I think the Wilsons are too forward, lack sufficient depth and there is too much energy in the upper half of the frequency range. I like your previous Wilson Alexx speakers more, overall.
Well I guess hell has just frozen over. I completely agree with inna. The Alexandria XLF's sound too top heavy and forward. Way too much energy from the midrange and up. I can easily see why viber loves this sound. The M6's were way more balanced. All of this new found definition and clarity is nothing more than the speaker being voiced with a hot top end.
My brother has owned these speakers for over 5 years. They produce a sound that is real life not sugar coated or warmed over, if you want colored sound these are not your speakers it's plain and simple.
Listening to these speakers in person is an experience that can only be appreciated in person the air in the room becomes music an event that you can hear and feel develop into instruments and a performance.
Thinking that you know what they sound like via youtube you are mistaken. It takes months and a lot of music to fully realize how great they are.
there is no perfect speaker - i have said this over and over. If i were to be ruthless, i could say "ok i can understand if you feel the xlf has too much energy or vocals or whatever", but i could also say the magico m6 requires for you to empty your 401k (if you got any) in order to buy the electronics needed or an argument could be made by some that it is too damn bright. What argument would you all have about it?
Way too bright, harsh, lack of midbass. Knopfler sounds like a little boy. They also sound like parts of them is out-of-phase, something is not correct.
When it comes to coherence, i can tell you that is is flawless. It feels as one cohesive unit at all times. Last but not least, and i am going to assume nobody will deny this fact, this is the most devastating speaker when it comes to slam and dynamics. Easily the most explosive, dynamic speaker i have owned by an entire zip code. Nothing is anywhere close to it. Before i forget, how many times have i PERSONALLY said on video that when you bring a new speaker into the room OFTEN TIMES you have to re-work all-if not most of your system UNLESS you are bringing a speaker from the same brand with the same characteristics? I think you all are forgetting these tiny facts... My entire system or what you heard is primarily to work perfectly with Magico. Ever thought that just MAYBE i need transparent cabling or other brands? What about VTL tube amps? or Gryphon Antileon? how about spiking the XLF first and fine tune the time alignment? i mean, i did use the mpods on the m6 and i also had it positioned based on the measurements from REW. Lots of things to do here guys... You are hearing a very "naked" speaker with NOT A DAMN THING done for it. NADA, NOTHING ZIP, NOT even the spikes...
I've heard the XLF's twice, in person. The last time was with Audio Research tube gear including the Ref.10. I thought the brightness that I heard at that time was because of the Ref.10 which is bright (for a tube preamp). Now after hearing these on YouTube I think it is the speakers that are voiced hot from the mids up. I believe the somewhat high sensitivity and the forward top end make for a good match with a warmish tube amp and system.
I really like the sound you are getting Jay. In my opinion it’s the best you ever had and that’s within the first few days. If people think the sound is digital, well all I have to say is that it is coming from a digital source. However I don’t find anything about it objectionable. Very revealing of the front end but not unkind in anyway. Very nice sound keep it up.
@carey1110 Yes, I listen through my Sennheiser HD 820 (Apparently others share my findings). Glad you like it, it will give me a headache in no time. A pity Jay does not put anything challenging, like symphonic music, on.
Do you like that about the other recordings too? I’m not disputing what you’re saying just tryin* to understand it. I agree this song is not the best demo piece.
Too many variables. I also would love to know WHERE the critics go to listen to these recordings. It would be helpful to understand their reference point which is what they are using to pass judgement on the XLF. I get it if some hate it just like there were some that also hated the M6. I am not embarking on a battle against anyone because this is why things are very subjective. If it serves as any point of reference, i have NEVER had a Youtube video receive anywhere near as many likes or views as the video where i unveiled the XLF. The algorithm from Youtube stated the following:
"Videos such as this one that have a higher click-through rate and hold the attention of regular viewers of your channel are more likely to be recommended to viewers watching similar videos and therefore get more views
Consider checking this video’s audience retention to see if there are any key moments that are particularly good at keeping viewers watching
More views from YouTube recommendations
This video got 4,819 views from recommendations on YouTube Home and “Up next”. Videos on your channel typically receive 1,400–2,200 in this time frame.
Higher click-through rate
Regular viewers of your channel chose to watch this video 21.8% of the time it was shown to them, instead of the usual 14.0%–15.0%.
Note that this value differs from the overall click-through rate as regular viewers, who are familiar with your channel, are more likely to choose to watch your videos.
Longer average view duration
On average, regular viewers of your channel watched this video for 08:41 — that’s 05:10 longer than usual.
Note that this value differs from the overall average view duration as regular viewers, who are familiar with your channel, are more likely to watch longer"
All i am saying is that sometimes it helps if people take the time to read the Youtube comments from the entire world and not just the thread. If they feel different about it then yes they can accept they are part of the minority and not the majority. - Nothing wrong with that either.
Jay,maybe it would be beneficial to comment on what specific attributes you are experiencing in your room that's not being adequately conveyed in the YT video. Most of us trust your ears and narratives as personal knowledge vs the hearsay aspect of YT that is more useful for comparative but not absolute SQ purposes. ie. I don't think anyone can reasonably ascertain the bass slam and soundstage through our headphones, no matter the quality.
The XLF tells the truth about the recording "Man in the moon." When I purchased the CD so I could play it at home, I found it to be a very bright recording, at least regarding the twang of the guitar accompaniment. I had to tone down my usual EQ settings--I was shocked. The voice is more conventionally recorded, which makes it veiled compared to the guitar, or the guitar is bright compared to the voice, whichever way you want to look at it.
There is nothing wrong with the XLF. In fact, it is the closest of Jay's speakers to the GTA on this song that I will link. Markedly lower the volume for the XLF to properly compare at the same SPL.
The XLF has enormous bass and lower midrange fullness compared to the GTA. Matching SPL's is difficult due to the big differences in tonal balance between the GTA and XLF. You can A/B the opening guitar on the two speakers, and then A/B the voice on the speakers at a different comparative volume setting. This is why I regard EQ such as my Rane ME 60 to be essential in choosing the tonal balance that suits you according to your taste and the particular recording. Instead of "choking" both ports of the XLF, the EQ could do it more flexibly with greater variation. The EQ would replace the preamp. Just connect the dac to the EQ then to the power amp. Only a guess--the Pandora is warmer than the Rane, but the Boulder preamp is more transparent. Whatever the possible slight weak link of the Rane, its EQ utility vastly outweighs its limitations. The Rane handily beats the Pass preamp for clarity/detail, heard as well by Steve.
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