2. amps-preamps
  3. 126624-10101

My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


128x128jays_audio_lab
20,890 responses 
inna
7,296 posts
 
I would say this Gryphon will compete with Pass amps. For big Wilson and Magico that's not nearly enough.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
kren0006,
I believe you refuse to listen to my videos on p 302, because doing so is at odds with your agenda, or what you think Jay's goals are.  If I am mistaken, and you actually listened to those videos, and decided that you hate the sound of the GTA, then explain objectively what you heard.  Someone did listen, he admitted that the GTA has more clarity, but he likes heft, so it wasn't for him.  That's fine for him, and honest, unbiased input.  As an exercise, have a friend play you the videos, and you decide your own rankings as you will be free of bias by being blinded.  It is good that Jay often presents different versions blinded without giving names, to avoid bias.  He said he is open to hearing GTA live, unlike the projections you make.  Steve told me that the membrane/magnet gap has been reworked, for even greater extension at both freq extremes and enhanced clarity.  That will be interesting to evaluate.

I have no business involvement with GTA, and am only interested in advances in the SOTA.  If one day in my lifetime a new transducer comes out that beats what I have heard, I will enthusiastically spread the news to anyone who cares to listen.  This thread and others should be about learning about advances, so anyone can benefit from awareness. To Jay's credit, he pursues anything he is able to do financially.  I object to closed minds and bias.  
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Nah, I’ve heard it before and not impressed, like others have commented, and that’s okay. But I’m glad you enjoy it.

Like everyone else here on this thread, I’m focused on WC’s journey, although I wish I hadn’t lost the golden touch in calling his next move. Darn it.

Speaking of WC’s journey, in contrast to Inna, i thought the Gryphon Antileon was better than the Soulution.
inna
7,296 posts
 
No one buys $175k Soulution 701 mono blocks not because new model is coming, it is because people have no funds to spend $55k just on amps no matter how great they might be. And those who have will buy new. The same situation with much less expensive stuff. No-one buys Diablo 300 and even much rarer 120 either here or on usaudiomart, Lamm monoblocks, Accuphase integrateds etc. Probably even those who can afford stuff are just not in the mood and also wait and see where the economy goes from where we are now. Besides, epidemics is not over, not even close yet.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
Jay,
I acknowledge your point that for a Soulution to depreciate from $160K to $55K and sinking, makes for a lousy proposition.  This is true of all expensive brands, to varying degrees.  You can survive the turnaround process only because you are skillful in negotiating deals that give you great discounts, but most people lose BIG.  This is why I search for near-SOTA products that are relatively cheap even at MSRP.  I haven't heard Soulution in any system, but a Mola Mola dealer said that a Soulution 700 stereo was outperformed in clarity/neutrality by the $16K MM Kaluga amp.  I took home the Kaluga, and it was good but in many ways my Bryston 2.5B SST2 beat it.  The used value of Kaluga is about half the original MSRP, but the absolute loss is only $8K vs over $100K for that Soulution.

Perhaps my most significant project is the Goal Zero Yeti battery/inverter, recommended by ricevs.  I was inspired by Mike Fremer's accounts in the last 2 issues of Stereophile of sonic disaster created by his outdoor 22KW generator.  His AQ Niagara 7000 couldn't overcome the sonic pollution from the generator transfer switch, but the PS Audio Power Plants 15 and 20 restored the glory of his system.  In my NYC apartment, power quality is variable, and even with the benefits of my Shunyata Denali, small differences in amps are swamped by the difference in any given amp between a good day and a bad day.  The Goal Zero inverter generates a perfect sine wave.  A review by Tom Lyle in Enjoy the Music said that its sonic performance equaled an expensive and heavy Stromtank inverter distributed by Dan D'Ag.  It is possible that the Goal Zero outperforms the PS Audio Power Plants.  I will get the Goal Zero Yeti 1500X soon to see.  It generates total AC of 2000W continuous, 3500W surges.  At $2000 MSRP, it might enable a modest Pass amp to beat the much more expensive Gryphon Antileon, both of which have similar euphonic character.  Another review said that benefits of AC regeneration are most obvious with digital dacs.  For low power front end sources and preamps, the Yeti 500X at $700 would be sufficient.


tweak1
3,644 posts
 
viber6


Maybe you can make a direct link to your 411 on page 302. I do not find it easy to get there
tweak1
3,644 posts
 
WOW, I listened to the GTA YTV, and all I can say is WOW, the most natural (life-like) sound I have heard from a YTV recording. Im sure a lot of Jay’s YT recordings are affected by other speakers in the room. That has been my personal experience

Now that aside, I have owned Accoustat 2+2s and Magnepan 3.5Rs (love the 2+2s with servo amps) the 3.5Rs, not so much. Anyway, I do not like my all purpose room being divided, or imposed upon, as large panel speakers tend to do. Replacing them with Emerald Physics 3.4s gives me most of the GTAs purity, and soon I’ll have EP 2.8s, with dual 15" carbon fiber woofers, which should make me one happy camper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8jm25r6Saw
Post removed 
abedirov's avatar
abedirov
63 posts
 
@whitecamaross I understand from your YouTube comments, that you use Tidal MQA to source the videos. Try Qobuz if Rossini supports it. I have both and compared Tidal MQA and Qobuz Hirez many times. Qobuz always wins, at least in my system.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
I tried that many times and my m6 are telling me it is pretty much the same for the most part. Some songs might be better than others but mqa and HR qobuz sounds identical in my room. 
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
WC, do you have a preference in general as to SQ between Tidal and Qobuz? Anything general you can say about how they compare as far as generalized impressions over all of the various gear you’ve had?

Which of the two is your go-to for streaming most often, independent of the gear in your room at the given moment?
ron17
607 posts
 
I agree with kren that the Antileon sounds much better than the Soulution integrated with the M6's. In fact I think the Pandora / Antileon / M6 is the best sound I have heard in Jay's room to date. I preferred the Mephisto over the Boulders but think the Antileon is a better match for the M6's.  

@viber
I heard the Mola Mola Kaluga's with my Makua but didn't care for them. I thought the Makua paired with a class A or A/B amp sounded much better....richer, fuller and more lifelike.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Actually, Viber, WC does not pursue anything he is able to do financially, which apparently is almost limitless based on what comes through the room.

Rather, as he’s stated many times, he pursues those things he is interested in, that he thinks will sound good and are high quality (he doesn’t buy crap), and that he judges will have a resale market (that somebody else will actually want to purchase without losing his shirt) because he never keeps anything long term.

WC could buy the GTA at the drop of a hat - chickenfeed compared to what he spends on other gear - but he has stated that when he is tired of them in a week (or two, whatever) and wants to move them, that he is worried nobody will want to buy them, a similar concern he had expressed with Tekton speakers. By contrast, he did not have that same concern with two Magnepan speakers or a Martin Logan speaker in the last four months for comparison sake, and AFAIK purchased those speakers. And he concluded that the Maggie 20.7 was the best speaker he’s had under $20k, if memory serves.

Anyway, looks like you found one other person who liked the video, but who is also unwilling to buy them and went another direction. Last you mentioned, you also had not purchased them either (nothing wrong with that).

If you must know my thoughts (you asked), I ranked the GTA behind the Maggie 20.7 and the Tekton, but just ahead of the Martin Logan speakers that WC had in his room and also ahead of the Maggie 3.7i, to extent I was able to compare across the videos. So it’s not a speaker I have any interest in purchasing, like WC, or even of hearing more of, but again, I’m glad that you enjoy them (if only by video or demo, not by ownership for whatever reason). Best regards,
klh007
621 posts
 
@tweak1 ak1 and @viber6 , Here are the 3 YT videos;
https://youtu.be/gueDCNUAapI     Alexx w/best kit
https://youtu.be/VEjje1WCvFw     M6 Solution Int
https://youtu.be/B8jm25r6Saw     GTA Planars, Pass kit, Lampi DAC

viber6, were the OB subs active for this recording? When I heard the GTA 3.1s at CAF running the pair of 6 12" OB woofers, voices were not thin, nor thickened by the subs as they ran a very low crossover frequency. I'm not sure Kren has heard the GTAs in a room like at CAF, but no Maggie comes close in regards to dynamic excitement, detail, low bass extension/impact, and realism. ML never sounds as coherent and also sounds dynamically compressed. Also Kren, Tekton is so swamped with backorders Eric has hired more employees and raised some prices, and used models often sell near retail.
    I agree with Ron17, the M6s driven by Pandora/Antileon produce the best sound Jay has assembled yet. I think a change in DAC and especially a dedicated server will be necessary to bring the next round of improvements.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Those weren’t my concerns on resale, but WCs. I can’t speak for why he stated that. He has said similar about Coda
rh67
307 posts
 
whitecamaross
I have to applaud you for what your doing, in many respects it`s a service for many.

Keep up the good work.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
@rh67:

Thank you. This is the reinforcement that keeps me pushing forward.


viber6
2,444 posts
 
klh007,
Thanks for reposting the 3 videos for easy reference.  It is probable that the OB subs were active for this GTA recording.  However, my perfect pitch tells me that the lowest note for the male vocal in the song, Iron Hand, is A which is at 110 Hz (2 octaves below A 440 Hz which is the note used for tuning in ensembles).  Since the subs cut in at 50 Hz, the sound of the voice for this song with and without subs would be nearly identical.  The only anomaly for the GTA is in the lower midrange/upper bass where the output is lower than it would be for a wider baffle panel like the Maggie 3.7i or especially 20.7.  That's probably why kren0006 prefers the 20.7, but the 3.7i also sounds fuller in that region than the GTA.  I will admit that reducing output in this region has the effect of relative dominance of upper freq which contributes to greater clarity by emphasizing upper overtones over the lower fundamental note.  But the guitar has more upper freq than the male voice, and the GTA panel (which goes up to 5-6000 Hz) and especially the ribbon tweeter are shown to be far more brilliant and still natural, than the M6 or Alexx tweeters.  The dynamic tweeters in M6 or Alexx might be excellent, but no midrange dynamic driver can approach the purity of a planar magnetic driver.  The overall effect is that for voice and higher pitched instruments, the GTA is much more immediate and upfront than the Alexx or M6.  The latter speakers sound as though there are 6 layers of blankets covering the GTA.  The most neutral/transparent electronics and cables will remove a few blankets, but in the end, the M6 will still have 2 blankets of veil compared to the GTA.  Still, an artificially very bright recording might sound exciting on the M6 where it might be too screechy on the GTA.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
ron17,
I admired the MM Kalugas for their midrange neutrality, which is rare.  In my system, their bass was too dominant and HF were subdued compared to my Bryston 2.5B SST2.  This unusual Bryston model is different from all other Brystons I have heard at home, which really are mediocre.  Speaking objectively, I agree that most amps are richer and fuller than the MM, but I maintain that the richer quality is euphonic distortion that subtracts information and clarity.  There is something elusive about live natural instruments that have both clarity and sweet harmonics that no system can duplicate.  But live instruments in rooms/halls with lots of soft wood and carpeting sound richer than they do when the surfaces are harder, like tile without carpeting.  The acoustic challenge is to avoid too many reflections, otherwise the excessive reverberation kills the clarity.  Oddly, I prefer the close sound of instruments in NYC subway cars and platforms (when it is quiet) to famous concert halls.  Take that, you Carnegie Hall snobs!
Post removed 
inna
7,296 posts
 
viber6, why don't you stop this endless posting about something no one here is interested in ?
Well, if Soulution 530 is no good to many I will buy it for $5k.
Assuming that we all have good enough hearing and equipment, it is interesting how differently we hear things. I wouldn't even consider Anthileon Evo for any speakers, unlike Mephisto that I might though not likely, only if Boulder was out of reach.
inna
7,296 posts
 
So, speaking of brands and speaking top or near top level, it is Boulder and D'Agostino for me. Very possibly Soulution as well, don't know yet. Haven't heard top Accuphase either but they probably can't compete with D'Agostino. For large scale music Gryphon Mephisto should be fine, maybe even close to Boulder.
ron17
607 posts
 
@inna

"Well, if Soulution 530 is no good to many I will buy it for $5k."

Who said the Soulution 530 is no good?

kren said.... "Speaking of WC’s journey, in contrast to Inna, i thought the Gryphon Antileon was better than the Soulution."

And I said.... "I agree with kren that the Antileon sounds much better than the Soulution integrated with the M6's."

Maybe you need to slow down and read more carefully.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Well WC said he didn’t like the Soulution, but he didn’t say it was no good. The only thing he’s really ever said that about was Accuphase e800 lol.
Well before I get in trouble maybe he didn’t say exactly that but that’s the impression I was left with after that video
inna
7,296 posts
 
Yeah, Jay just stated that he didn’t like the Soulution 530. About Accuphase E-800 he said that in his opinion it was overpriced, he didn’t exactly say he didn’t like it. I like them both.
pokey77
1,265 posts
 
At least one poster hear stratifies amps into levels like they can be absolutely graded into levels. While I may also somewhat agree, this will not work on an absolute basis. Best way to go about it is to pick the speaker you must have, then demo with a number of amps until you find the best synergy.  You may have assembled the "best speaker" and the "best amp", but they may also not work well together. This is also why it is good to have a dealer that can help you through the process. If you want your system to sing, this is the first part of the process you must navigate. WC does that by process of elimination and speaking/visiting with his contacts. I applaud that.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
@pokey77 
You articulated things perfectly. Anytime you get a new you are most likely going to have to change something else and often times it is done by trial and error. 
Anyone who buys a totally different Speaker to what they currently own should be prepared to spend more money besides the speakers in order to achieve maximum synergy. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
And I'll put my money where my mouth is..


https://youtu.be/xpb03znD9lQ
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Strap your seatbelts... DCS VERSUS MSB will be happening courtesy of yours truly....
Never ever been done on social media. The best shoot out of 2021? 
We will find out... 
inna
7,296 posts
 
Let's just not hear that 'who is strangling the cat ? ' Norwegian girl.
Iron Hand song and then something different if possible.
Should be fun. I place my bet on dCS. 
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Wow this will be great. Really looking forward to it
klh007
621 posts
 
Jay, you have really upped the ante with the MSB! A comparison between MSB and dCS will be very interesting, even at different price levels. Most of us have been to a show and heard both the same day, but in different rooms, this should be a first on a superb system letting us hear the 2 playing the same songs, I can't wait. I still hope you enlist a true dedicated server to feed the DAC that stays, Mike might loan you one for a weekend, that's all the time you should need to hear an improvement.
inna
7,296 posts
 
A thought. $100k-$175k for great speakers or amps sounds much more reasonable to me than $83k for any dac. This price is insane. Well, all of it is insane but that amount just for a dac is beyond it, it is ridiculously insane. This dac might become obsolete in a few years even if it is upgradable. It's almost like drinking $3k a bottle wine or buying $25k suit.
I did try once $1k a bottle wine. Great, but I didn't pay for it, it was a gift.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Depends how you look at it. Some would say the speakers first and then the source second and finally amp/pre third with cables/ conditioner fourth in that order have most impact on sound quality. 

If that’s correct, then I’d say WC is building this system according to plan. It’s all relative.
He pulled his speakers from nearly the top shelf. He pulled the dac maybe from the same shelf or one below, and so far he pulled the amp/pre from a shelf several down, with better amps coming. 

What’s not to like, other than he should have stuck with Wilson Audio?






oh relax I’m kidding about the Wilson, well kinda
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
The point is that WC is probably on the way with this system build to a half million dollar system. When you look at it that way, I’d say he’s spending in the correct proportions so far with speakers and dac (given that’s he’s digital only). 

Many of us are playing an order of magnitude or more below these levels, but as I’m building out my 50-60k system I’m thinking about the proportions the same way, just as I did when I built out my 5-6k office third system, two orders of magnitude below what WC is doing
golfnutz
231 posts
 
@klh007 
Jay, you have really upped the ante with the MSB! A comparison between MSB and dCS will be very interesting, even at different price levels. Most of us have been to a show and heard both the same day, but in different rooms, this should be a first on a superb system letting us hear the 2 playing the same songs, I can't wait. I still hope you enlist a true dedicated server to feed the DAC that stays, Mike might loan you one for a weekend, that's all the time you should need to hear an improvement.

I agree, but I don't think you'll see this happen. Jay, skipped over the same question I asked previously about 'Taiko Audio SGM Extreme', which Mike shows in his product line.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
One step at a time... I have more equipment sitting on the sidelines you all haven't seen...
grey9hound
1,112 posts
 
I'll say the MSB will win .
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Same. Heck it better win at nearly 3x
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Money isn't always equivalent to the improvement. Sometimes that extra ounce or two costs a ton more. It's the nature of the hobby. 
techno__dude
511 posts
 
I agree it’s just too much for a dac. This is not rocket science, it’s only digital to analog conversion...

And it won’t transform the Magico M6 into musical speakers imho.

I guess Suncoast will have to intervene again to justify the means.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
Sources are very important, such as the quality of recordings.  Dac's are worth trying, although they are considered electronics and won't make as great a difference as the recording.  My experience is that dac's are at least as critical as amps.  An analogy to vinyl--recordings are still the most important factor, but phono cartridges are next, because they really are a speaker in reverse.  Much less critical is the amp, in this case.  The CD transport/streamer/dac is like the entire cartridge/tonearm/turntable system, so I think that this is a very worthwhile endeavor.
inna
7,296 posts
 
Yeah well, if you make $83k per day $83k for a dac is just fine. That thing probably costs $5k max to make, including so-called R&D.
As for dealer's profit margin, speaking of Magico M6, they probably pay 50%-60% the retail price. It's good business if you can sell them.
Comparing digital to analog is difficult. The foundation of analog is turntable itself/tape deck not tonearms and cartridges and even phono stages. Put $500 MM cartridge on $25k rig and you will get great sound no digital can touch.
Anyway, waiting for that Californian dac to impress us. I know I won't be impressed because of the Gryphon in the chain, which I consider totally inadequate and euphonic.
But I do think that Magico M6 is a musical speaker. This is not overall my preferred sound but it doesn't change my opinion.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
ok Inna, 
did you just say Magico M6 is a musical speaker? well... you can't take words back now..  :-)
pokey77
1,265 posts
 
$5k to make the MSB dac including R&D. Now that is hilarious.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
https://youtu.be/kHrIq4Y9L68
inna
7,296 posts
 
Yes, Jay, I did. I choose words carefully, though it sometimes may not look like that.
Tell Mike to get Kuzma Reference, that one is not good enough. Don't tell him - he knows better than I do.
Kharma with Boulders, yeah, good idea.
inna
7,296 posts
 
pokey77, prove me wrong.
Speakers may have msrp that is ten times the production cost. With overpriced dacs it should be more.
thezaks
712 posts
 
inna,
The R&D (that you included) is where a larger cost can be incurred.   I think you are probably grossly underestimating that.
Dave
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I’m sure all their engineers and designers work for free, or maybe just for the employee discount <rolls eyes>
This discussion is closed
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