My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Boulder VERSUS Gryphon: Date: December 24th, 12pm Eastern Time.
This will be the first time I will do one song with one set up immediately followed by the same exact song with the other set up. -Volume levels will be matched at 82 db. -Speaker cables will be audioquest dragon on both systems which will be on each system for 24 hours prior to shooting video in order to allow cables to settle.
It actually would not surprise me if 2021 is the year WC brings a solid vinyl setup into his room......now wouldn't that shock everyone here.......
He has already had top-of-the-line digital (not currently), and now his speakers and electronics have caught up. Analog seems like a natural progression. Maybe not 2021...2022 probably more likely. He will say he has no interest at this time, and I believe him...........for now.
But once the college player begins dominating there and finding it more and more difficult to find challenges at that level, it is inevitable to look to the pros.
Anything is possible... That said, I'm not sure I want to embark on buying vinyl... The storage and space plus it's too finicky. It is so delicate and i love knowing a dac is pretty much plug and and play and add your cables or interconnects.
When you do get a good vinyl (Analog) setup, you’ll be All in ! I used to kind of think that the GUY who kept saying that vinyl is just so much better than digital, was just stuck in his ways, unwilling to embrace the Digital format. It turns out he is Right, and when you experience it you Will Know ! I can crank the Hell out of the Volume when I am playing Vinyl on my setup, with not a hint of brightness or hard shrillness that you can get from digital, and it just gets more detailed , more articulate , more BASS Definition.. ...ETC .It not only gets louder, It get better!! Oh BTW I am using an excellent stereo amp for the price on the Used market( IMO as well as many others) ....gets great reviews . It is the Belles 150A V2 Reference Power Amp
@grey9hound @viber Please Send me a private message with the best songs jazz/blues/classical (One of each if you can) and choose the most widely recognized song of each. I also would like for you both to search each song within youtube to make sure they are not blocked. The way to do this is by just searching the song and if you find someone playing it on their system or something along those lines then that is an indication that it is good to be used. If all you can find is an official music video then this is probably an indication that it is copyrighted and can't be played. Thank you
That’s 6 straight correct predictions in a row without a miss (Tekton, Alexx (model and timing, to the day), Mephisto, Magnepan 20.7, Focal (generally called the make, not model, “some Focal”), Alexia 2). I should just quit while ahead because not sustainable. (Well I guess I’m already on record predicting Gryphon Mephisto solos are next).
I didn’t call the Boulders (someone else did), but I also didn’t incorrectly predict something else (in that case WC hadn’t told us something was coming like he usually does).
I wonder what WC thinks when he reads my predictions days or weeks b4 he reveals and he’s the only one who knows they’re correct?? Probably he is thinking, “I wish that guy would quit guessing my next move!”
You confirmed that you pay attention to what i say and hopefully this has translated into your audio room in some sort of way. More to come in 2021. I think 2021 will have a dry supply of amplifiers for me because I am pretty much near the end. There isn't much more room for me unless I want relentless, dartzeel 468s etc and those are hard to come by for me.
It’s the same guys who post on every single tekton thread here on Audiogon. Not sure what tekton did to them that traumatized them so much, lol. Maybe it’s some tekton competitors since most Tekton actual owners seem to have very good things to say about them and biting into their sales? I know I sure don’t have the time or energy to post everywhere I can about things I don’t like. If I did I think I’d rather find something much more fun to do with my time like go to the gun range, play my guitars, watch jays latest videos.
Jay, Thanks for inviting me to give you some classical selections. The popular melodic classical music pieces were written from 1600 to 1900. There are no copyrights for the music because it is so old, although there are copyrights on the performances within the last 75 years. I don't know how this works for youtube, but I'll take your good suggestion to search youtube for performances already posted. Right now, I'll just give you some well-rounded pieces (not concentrated on violins) that I guarantee you will like. Tops--Rossini William Tell Overture with its exciting dynamics in the last 4 min or so, the famous "Lone Ranger" theme. Next--Vivaldi Four Seasons. OK, this Vivaldi consists of 4 violin concertos, but the orchestrations are exciting with lots of color (that's musical color, not electronic colorations). I mention these to show how DCS chose popular composers to name their products. Other great composers that DCS chose are Bartok, Elgar, Scarlatti, Puccini. These English DCS people have taste and class!
You outdid yourself by pulling off the flagship Tekton Ulf, then I think you said you got it with the beryllium tweeter for the center driver. The ultimate would be the Ulf with all 15 Be tweeter drivers in each speaker, but even what you got is a coup. Thanks!!!
As I described earlier....a friend modded his Ulfs (and told me it was way better) by removing the xover from the box and replacing most of the parts with better ones.....the midrange parts are super critical. I believe there is a single ordinary coil in series with the midrange array along with a good cap. If you change that coil to a 12 gauge OFC foil or wax foil coil and replace that cap with a super one then the transparency will go through the roof. Even better would be to tri amp the speaker.....like I described earlier and linked to on my website. This way you can put the xover in front of the amp using super parts and have no coil what so ever on the midranges. The midranges would be wired from their tweeter terminals directly to the binding post bypass system on my modded amp.......this would be mind blowing. I know you are not a tweak but what is possible for "someone" with these speakers is beyond most $100K+ speakers.......but you do need to tweak....with these speakers starting at so little then no money problems for many of you. Of course, better parts for the woofs and tweeter would improve the sound. Then there is cabinet and driver damping.....felting around the front of all the tweets, better wire to the drivers, Ground Enhancers built into the speakers, etc. etc......lots of stuff to improve the sound. The sky is the limit.....Hendrix proclaimed....."Excuse me while I kiss the sky"
Very interested to see how Tektons do on a World Class System like you have!!!* I am really hoping they spread their wings and shine. Not the most expensive speaker by any means..relative to what you have had but, I am curious about how their performance does with all top tier products. Oh yeah,I really want them to shine so we can take the Haters down a notch or two.
Lol...haters will always exist ! Their job is to hate and they feel unproductive if they aren't hating daily. We just have to try to keep pushing forward. The tektons will have 1,000 watts of class A pushing their 99db sensitivity!
Wc , you still running the Denali 6000T v2’ if so what pc have you tried from the wall to Denali ? I’ve seen mention of Odin, Dragon and SR but never a mention of Shunyata pc,s, why ?
Then they will be more ugly but have even more beautiful sound. I like utilitarian looks because it reminds you that the purpose of a system is great sound. Same for Mephisto.
Video #1 of the Boulder versus Gryphon has been uploaded and will be live tomorrow at 12 pm eastern time and it's about 19 min long. 3 songs will play on each system and i will not disclose which cables i used in order for you all to not be biased. I want you to rely on your ears instead. Then I will upload the final video this Saturday with the same songs as video #1. Video #3 will be me revealing what cables were used on videos 1 and 2 and giving my opinion on what i heard in the room. Please use headphones and i encourage you to listen to the entire video multiple times if you can. If you listen once and you think you know what you prefer, i urge you to listen to the video a few more times. Dont jump the gun because there is no reason for that. Hurrying up to post your comments here without really REALLY evaluating the demonstration is not smart. I took the time to put together this video so at least take your time listening to it multiple times.
My initial feedback with the first video is that things aren’t as easy as i thought they would be. Both are phenomenal and you will finally hear their weaknesses and strengths.
It will only be a real test when you upgrade the stock powercords on the Boulders. As good as the stock pc are, they cannot complete with Audioquest Dragon on the Mephisto.
So in the meantime, stock pc on the Mephisto should absolutely be used for a test with meaning.
My thoughts on the power cord agree with kren0006's thoughts - the stock cord should be used on the Boulders. Here's the thing - if you are an audio manufacturer and you decide to make your power cord setup unique and not very conducent to upgrading the power cord, then you are basically telling the world that they should use the power cord that comes with the component. And, you better make sure it's a decent enough power cord to do justice to the product you are selling.
Can it be upgraded? Sure, anything is possible, but it's not easy or cheap. Again, I think that Boulder is basically saying - do not use the Dragons. With that in mind, I think it's totally fair to compare the Boulder with its stock power cords to anything else with upgraded power cords. Anyway, just my opinion. Dave
I used to read this thread every day. My enthusiasm has waned, since watching the videos. I think this is the first time I've looked here in a fortnight.
The music needs to not contain artificial reverb. Recorded live. One take. In a room where no reverb is added.
@theophile Sorry that my music selection isn't really doing it for you. This is why I have decided to do something unique next year for those of you who want to hear specific music seletions and with a specific combination of my electronics. Lots and lots of people ask for specific music and or songs and so i will be doing this privately for those who want and are serious of course. More to come
Sorry WC, I don’t care who idea it was, it is a huge error to compare any amplifier with Audioquest Dragon vs another amp with only stock powercords...
YOU always used stock powercords first on your amps tests. This was your philosophy and you were right, Why is this different this time.
I ll tell you why, because the Mephisto needs 30 k of powercords to have any chance competing with the Boulder. This is why.
It’s not fair for the Boulders , to have them on stock powercords competing with an amp on Audioquest Dragon.
This is like giving a 50 meters advance to a Dodge Viper on startup vs a Ferrari. This is like cutting off the turbo in the Ferrari and fueling it with lame 87 octane gas....vs high octane 94 in the Dodge.
The test is biased from the start.
30k POWERCORDS !! Vs stock pc .......this is NOT SERIOUS at all.
The fact that Boulder is in mono configuration and Mephisto is just a stereo version is enough to compensate for the difference in PCs. Let us not forget, that the Boulder is 2 times more expensive than Gryphon for this very reason. Although I own Mephisto and would like it to win, I must admit the Boulder does sound amazing. Thank you Jay for this opportunity and I look forward to tomorrow’s videos and more surprises from you next year:))
Just wanted to thank you for the editing you are planning on doing to make it easier for us to hear the differences in cables and component changes. That is a lot more work for you......man nobody does that!
Also if I were looking to buy a Gryphon or a Boulder amp I would love to hear my music played through them. Considering that you can't go to a dealer and hear those amps pitted against each other makes sense to me to have you tailor a music list to my liking for evaluation. Even if it's over YouTube I think you would be one step closer to knowing what suits you with that service. Along those lines I'm excited to hear what grey9hound and viber put together (jazz and classical) selections to be played over your system. I'm not a classical guy but I would love to hear a dynamic piece played through your gear or a straight up jazz trio with no added reverb or processed effects.
techno__dude, I would not fault WC, kren0006, or even myself for the use of stock cords on the Boulder - it's Boulder's fault, In fact, it seems to me it's their intention. Dave
Jay, it really does not make any sense to worry or think about stock or AQ power cords.there are already so many variables in the system and difference in synergy when comparing diff components. either ways the mighty boulder monoblocks are going to road roll the poor stereo mephisto. I also think you should go back to vivaldi from rossini.bcoz at the ultra high end level you are comparing , source becomes very important and its were everything starts.since you are rest of the chain is so transparent, you should truly have a reference source like vivaldi or MSB Select to do justice to the rest of the chain.
Like I said initially, there are decent arguments for either method of test. Obviously I prefer the method WC ended up choosing for the reasons I stated above, but I wouldn’t be whining if he had gone the other route. WC had to pick one and he did.
Nothing to get worked up about unless one has a vested interest in the outcome.
I have to admit I am also curious to see how the classical and jazz presentations sound if/when Viber et al provide something WC approves of.
One of my favorite jazz tunes on my system is Mister Magic by the late Grover Washington Jr. I suspect WC would like it as well.
Well I am not sure that I picked unprocessed songs. I think we all mostly listen to music that is processed in some way or another. I probably should pick some Music that is recorded live for that. I think in todays world there is very little recorded music that is not processed . There is a lot of Old Jazz Standards
"so to speak",Trios and Quartets ..etc ", but personally , I find them mostly boring or repetitious... not all mind you ... but most I actually picked out 2 songs of Jazz from the Live London Jazz Scene . 2 modern Blues songs and 1 or 2 songs from the albums I mentioned earlier. I di8d not get that sent to WCSS until about 4AM today. I hope he got them in time.
Thanks greyhound. I got them and they will be the songs i will play on the tekton speakers. You all ever wonder how a tekton Ulfberht looks next to an Alexx ? I'll be posting a pic on youtube shortly :)
Lol, too funny. I can imagine. I can imagine tecno listening to a new speaker, then being asked what he thinks of it. His response would be, I need to know who made the drivers before I can answer that. Not sure why the issue with the stock Boulder cables. They make cables specifically to complement their product, and feel that using anything else would take away from the experience, that’s how well made they are, and how confident they are about them. It’s strange that we get the Tekton haters here, but none of the anti cable guys. Many of the anti cable guys seem to also be Tekton haters that I’ve seen on other threads.
Can't please everybody all the time and some just behave as if they were little children.
Instead of behaving badly, let Jay just have his videos the way he wants them. He's already done you all the favor of entertaining your wants and he has chosen to do it the way he wants and with logic too.
Amen - Let’s try to have an open discussion tomorrow right after the video at 12pm. Maybe I’ll do a live video chat around 2pm eastern tomorrow for those who want to give me their impressions on the first boulder vs Gryphon video.
Here is my choice for one of the best big orchestral classical pieces of all time, Tchaikovsky Symphony no. 4. One of the greatest conductors of the 20th century, Leonard Bernstein, conducting one of the top orchestras, the NY Philharmonic, 1974. The piece has everything interesting sonically, with dynamics from soft to large scale. The sound is natural, with a proper amount of stage sound, but not too much reverberation. All instruments and tempos. A great interpretation. The video permits you to see all the action, which helps understanding of this long 45 min piece. Take the time to get to know it. Youtube sound is mediocre, but you can use your servers/streamers to access it, or another recorded performance with the same musicians, or another recording of this piece with other performers.
Jay mentioned using headphones to listen, but if you have a way to play it (youtube) on your own home system, or your main listening rig , it will be a lot closer to what things would sound like in your room. I have not tried this but if you have a smart tv , you can run the youtube app and hook up optical or coaxial cable from the output on the TV to your DAC? Pre-Amp..etc. I have no idea how good the sound is from the tv output, but I am pretty sure most of the newer tvs have this. It might be worth a try..
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