True techno, anyone with an iPhone and AirPods are now audiophiles. Anyone spending more than that is just stroking their ego. Ok, now that that has been decided we can all move on from this thread, and indeed the entire forum ( guys, think he will notice we are still here after this post)
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
@zprr i talked to 4 dealers who carry both nordost and ansuz. and all of them whole heartedly recommend ansuz and say c2 beats odin 1 and d2 beats odin 2. same as what @thieliste said. ansuz was born out of nordost dna. some folks say ansuz was born out of a frustration due to lack of innovation in nordost. if u see series 1 they are more than a decade old and series 2 were launched in 2014. one way to think is nordost products are so solid that they stand the test of time due to the quality of engineering and performance another way to look at it is lack of innovation and 6 years for series 2 and 12 years of series 1 is a very long time time in this space if you look at competitors like ansuz, wireworld, synergistic research etc. even if odin 1 might be a terrific performer but it sucks in the price to performance ratio along the cable spectrum , even for a high end system. |
Jay - I wanted to ask you something. I've seen several of your videos and it seems to me that you are changing components in and out of your system virtually every day. Or at least every couple of days. Do you ever just sit and listen to any one set of components for a few months and just enjoy music? This is not meant as a dig in any way. I like gear as much as the next guy and I believe everyone should enjoy their property the way they want to. I know people with an expensive sports car that leave it in the garage and look at it. Great. So I'm just asking the question out of curiosity. Apart from the lifting and trying to get heavy cables in place, comparisons can be a lot of fun. I was just wondering what your longest time was without changing stuff out. Respect. |
Techno just made excellent points. Also, music appreciation and the pursuit of high fidelity has nothing to do with powerful cars. For example, I heard a Bryston 3B SST in my system. It was powerful, but the midrange was dark and colored, and HF dull, compared to my reference Bryston 2.5B SST2 and Mytek Brooklyn amps. |
@chayro I do sit and listen to music behind the scenes. For instance, that video I uploaded last night was after I was listening to music for several hours and I thought it sounded so good that I needed to share it with you all. I believe the component or brand that has lasted the longest with me has been DCS, Wireworld and Nordost. @viber... Car analogies have a message which is the fact that I do like big power, big weights , I actually enjoy the heavyweight division of the UFC more than the stupid fly weight division. I watch the world strongest competition. I like big SUVs, I despise mini coopers, Teslas, VW beetles, because I am 6’1, 267 lbs and would look stupid coming out of any of those cars. The other day I was watching the movie TOP GUN and I drooled at the speed and sound of those fighter jets. I immediately googled how much those planes cost for curiosity ($35 million) and found out that the operating costs to fly those planes is $8,000 dollars per hour and that no civilian can own one. The point I’m trying to make is my nature leans towards what I have outlined above. Delicacy and simplicity comes at a certain point in life but right now and at my age I simply don’t want to live that way. I want to feel the damn monstrous power, speed, or extremes of anything I can own or afford. Eventually, as I age, I won't be able to move heavy amps, or drive fast cars where I can't get in and out of etc. That time will come for me but it is not now. |
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I don’t know when my time will come, but I’m 59 and still find ways to lift and move 230lb amps, speakers, subs, by myself, upstairs. I also find myself needing breaks more often after I move them, eventually I’ll have a permanent break, until then, hopefully I’ll be able to keep doing what I’m doing. |
I am actually THE ONLY ONE showing what new tech is doing AKA MERRILL AUDIO 118S. so I’m not sure WHAT you are referring to. I don’t see other people showing a damn thing or doing what I am doing with Merrill audio and the arc ref6se. Point me or send me a link of anyone doing this. I will sit and wait for it. Should I hold my breath too ? You might want to go read the comments on my YouTube channel about night's video. |
Techno, is there a point to that comment? I’m pretty sure everyone here can do the math, lol. Despite your views, class D isn’t ready to take on something like the Mephisto. I’m sure eventually it will get there. Personally I don’t care A,B,D or Z. All that matters is the result. If I can get mephisto sound for far less, I’m all for that. No one wants to pay more if they don’t have to. I can see class D doing well in multi channel home theaters also. My Denon 8500 is being replaced for two reasons, one it dosnt have enough channels, and two, with all channels driven it’s not enough power. It will take me three amps in total with a 16 channel processor to replace it. It could be done easier and for less with class D depending on budget and quality of sound desired. Not the route I went this time, but who knows what may be in a few years. |
@viber6 i think you missed my point.i said all 4 carry both nordost and ansuz. even from a probability point of view, why would all of them support ansuz despite carrying nordost as well. iam not talking about a dealer that touts only the brands he carry are the best. also when they say A beats B, i mean they have had a cables installed in the same system, same room,listened for countless hours done A/B test and are talking about the overall performance. we cannot even say there is sales or profit motive as both brands are high margins. although we can easily brush off as not to believe the dealer, they also have years of experience and all of them saying the same thing does mean and indicate something. |
@whitecamaross regarding your speaker placement deep inside the room away from the wall.i know rooms at shows they have no choice. but if you even see the rooms at wilson audio factory, they do not place their own speakers so far.iam sure they want their speakers to sound the very best in their own setup and testing rooms. obviously when you bring out speakers so far out, bass will decrease which you might have to over compensate by a powerful amp with more volume and power. |
A pair of Luxman M-900u can take on the Mephisto with most speakers. There is no reason the Mephisto would sound better. So what if one is heavy biased towards more bass, I’m sorry but thats not better sound... It never was, but it’s what the op always tried to make us believe since the beginning of the thread... bigger speakers...bigger amps... more bass... more bass... Aural memory my dears friends is very poor, one cannot judge mids and highs with this kind of gear shoveling. The only thing old beaten eardrums can remember is low frenquencies pressuring the room... it’s physical...and that’s the only thing WC can truly notice and pass on to this thread... And he pays tens of thousands of dollars for that. What a scam. |
Wow, I am thrilled to take on this challenge with you techno but there’s one problem: you aren’t a challenge. Never have been and never will. I might just build my daughter a small system consisting of a single luxman 900u amp, McIntosh preamp and Dynaudio contour speakers so she can play the song "happy" by Ferrell Williams as well as all of the frozen songs all day long. Stay tuned for that. I might make that my second system in the house. She is 4, so I’m sure she will be thrilled !! I'll put this together just for you since that is the exact system you have at home . |
Don’t forget the dedicated electric circuit with an Oyaide R1 outlet. And the subwoofer. And the fuses, I upgraded them all. But that you just can’t understand, as you still believe in your out of date expensive Odin 1 pc going through a 55 cents fuse... Oh yeah thinking about it...it’s just logical as your beaten ears should not perceive all the nuances...it’s not bass...crazy vibrating big overblowned bass. |
We'll have to settle this debate with a video A/B of Mephisto and Merrill. Talk is cheap, but listening is everything. WC, I should explain better. Appreciation of high performance car and jet engines is awe-inspiring and fun. Same for the air whizzing around you from riding a motorcycle or motorboat, although I hate the noise which damages hearing. I lift the maximum weights and do as many pushups and chin-ups as I can. So I get where you are coming from when you like powerful sound. But you also value clarity. In my experience there is a tradeoff between power and delicate clarity. For example, the Merrill 114 is more powerful and dynamic than my little Bryston, but the Bryston is more nimble and delicate. For the nuances of soft guitar and voice, you would like the Bryston better, but for deep bass of rock, you would prefer the Merrill. goodsource, Still, "overall performance" is vague. Most people would say the Merrill beats my little Bryston for overall performance. But for certain parameters like tight focus, neutrality and clarity which are my priorities, the overall performance of my Bryston "beats" the Merrill. Other people who would hate the lean bass and cooler tonality of the Bryston, would say the overall performance of the Merrill is better. I understand many people's other priorities, but no matter what the priorities are, the objective characteristics of sound can be described, and they can be commonly understood if the different listeners have perceptive hearing and musical understanding. techno, Again I agree with most of what you say, but I wouldn't call WC's endeavors a scam. Scam implies insincerity or misrepresentation, which WC is certainly not and doesn't do. He has similar tastes as me at times (clarity, etc.), but different values for his other music. Still, I have learned from him about different products I have never heard. |
WC, I don't know whether you are serious, but it would be a great idea to introduce your little girl to great sound, with a small system for her room. A great minimonitor like the Falcon LS3/5a, or the small Paradigm Persona model B with all Be drivers. Get the fairly powerful $2500 MSRP Mytek Brooklyn Amp for her. She has better ears than both of us put together, and might say, "daddy, I hear more detail on my little speakers than on your big system, and the bass in my small room is strong enough for me. I'm scared of monsters." |
I did not meant WC reviews are scam. He does his best. What I was talking about was the industry selling monster amps with power rating and msrp that are just crazy meaningless. Now that I have the mic...lets dream a bit... Next week will bring an all new system in WC ´s room. The Mephisto, Merrill 118 and Alexia 2 will be gone and send to new homes. The new comers... B&W 802D3 , a pair of the new REL SHO 812, new fuses all around, driven by the new Krell 402 evolution !! Now we ´re talking real fun and discoveries... |
Tecno, you’re just rude. No one here is intrested in it. One thing to have a real convo about something, different to insult as you have done. The rest of us would prefer you find another thread to pester. Well give you a participation ribbon for best system in your own mind. Y the way, jay wasn’t the one talking about bass, I was. If that’s a problem, I guess we both will just have to deca with that. |
WC, I found out about my 1st serious speaker, the Maggie Tympani 1D, through the Jan 1978 issue of Playboy when I was 25. The Tympani was the top speaker for a loft space. Each was 6' tall, with three 16" wide panels, and looked like the present 30.7. I wanted to be in that upper echelon. I loved the wall to wall big sound with the speed of those planar drivers. I blasted those speakers to well over 100 dB on large symphonic music. Soon after, I heard the little Rogers LS3/5a casually set up at a friend's house. I was disillusioned that these little crude dynamic drivers were musically more convincing than the big bada$$ Tympani. The Tympani's bloating soon lost out to the more realistic little Rogers. My ego also lost out to honest musicality. |
Viber, Thank you +1 Still, I have learned from him about different products I have never heard. The information I have learned from WC is invaluable, I have a simple system right now more suited for home theater. But I enjoy music just as much so my plan is to keep this existing system and build a new 2 channel one just for music. This helps immensely since when I start building a 2 channel I can narrow my search and eliminate a lot of possibilities right away. Not just with amps but also with speakers, speaker cable, power cords. So I am taking notes for when I am ready. WC, do you plan on listing your favorites again like you did at the top of your post? Bryston, Nad, Parasound, Krell... now that you have evaluated many more since then. Will |
I agree that the speakers are too far out into the room, and if there are any other speakers in the room not being powered there’s a high probability that they are negatively influencing WCs efforts What IMHO would be cool would be to have Ric Schultz newest Purifi moded modules for comparison vs the uber expensive amps. If they’re as good as I suspect, that would leave a bunch of money for front end kit PLUS reduce the risk of back trouble http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Purifi_amp_mods.html or the new Voyager GaN amp from LSA available from Underwood HiFi, which should be available as I type |
@whitecamaross have you also thought about bringing in balance, predictability in your choice of cable looms while testing your whole system. - like one way is to use whole loom of nordost valhalla 2 from power to speaker cables, whole loom of transparent reference or XL etc or odin 1 etc. - second way , even if you mix and match but to use price appropriate series of products.like for example a valhalla 2 can be termed reasonable for daw or alexia 2 but odin 1 may not be. - first it brings more stability and predictability while assessing the performance of various gear - second it also makes your system more rational and balanced. like whats the point of using odin 1 power cords and speaker and IC when your speakers just cost 55k (alexia 2) or daw (35k). its just like.i can pour in more money to tilt the balance of performance in one or way another. - i mean for example would sasha daw with odin 1 beat performance of alexia 2 with valhalla 2. i highly doubt and i think alexia 2 will perform better.based on speaker and electronics combo. - i think using cables of disproportional price for the system, makes the debate and assessment around performance more convoluted & irrational these are just suggestions. having said that you are doing a phenomenal job and i love your insights and assessment of various combinations you share with us. |
goodsource, Good questions. In reality, when you have a speaker you love, even if it is modestly priced, you want to get the best ancillary components that you can afford. It may seem crazy to spend all that money on Odin speaker cable which alone could be more than the price of the speakers, but if you seek the highest transparency, you go for it. However, I have found that all the fairly expensive speaker cables I have tried over 40 years are inferior in clarity than my plain zip cord. Try it, and don't let high end snobbish attitudes dissuade you. For RCA interconnects, I love my Nordost Frey 2, and my Nordost Vishnu power cords. |
WC a quick question. Doesn't Wilson Audio offer free set-up on their speakers? Yes probably if bought thru a Wilson dealer but reading thru your posts seems like your current Wilson's are new. Wouldn't it be best if you had the Wilson "experts" fine tune your speakers? Once that was done you could mark the spot then try other positions as you saw fit. Thoughts? |
@viber6 i agree with you and iam not averse to pricy cables and neither iam questioning the high price or value proposition. my point is if iam spending an extra 20k for odin, instead of that if i put that money towards alexia 2 and valhalla 2 instead of sasha daw and odin 1, that v2 with alexia 2, would that not give better leap in performance? |
Any system I’ve ever heard and there have been many that can benefit from the right cable. To say zip cord offers the same benefit over other cables makes me wonder what system could not reveal improvements over the zip cord. Of course it depends what you are looking for and the system you are using I guess. Clarity is certainly subjective in so many ways. Cabling definitely matters, now whether or not it justifies the cost is definitely up for debate. As far as the Odin WC has, well if you have it why not try it and see which you like better. WC has tried many different cables and I guess he like the detail of the Odin. Cables are personal preference. I guess what Viber6 is sayIng is that he likes his zip cord just fine and that’s great. Wish I could be happy with that. I’ve tried the zip cord and the comparison wasn’t even close. However me personally , I would never spend that kind of money on aN Odin cable because if I did I I would have to degrade the speaker or something else. So yes Id put the many in the components first then fine tune with cables. However WC already has it so why not. If you’re doing comparative evaluations, keeping cabling consistent will help In your evaluation but then Again some cables have a better synergy with certain Components. That’s why many manufacturers recommend the cable they voice the equipment with. So WC when’s that next video coming out. Like to hear ARC ref 6 with the Mephisto. |
@goodsource I have to agree with your thoughts about spending more $$$ on the next speaker (given that you're heard it and it's REALLY better) than spending even more on ic's, sc or power cords. Although the right power cord can make or break a system and they don't have to be ultra expensive. I've learnt that the hard way myself. |
Thanks for the above Carey. There is a video releasing tonight at 7pm.EST where I will give more thoughts on mephisto , arc ref6se, Merrill 118s playing more music with arc ref6se and also we hear the Gryphon Essence with Fyne Audio speakers. I recorded these songs over at Suncoast with the same SHURE mic I’ve been using lately. Stay tuned for that update. Ps. Mephisto is EXTREMELY picky. You can’t feed it McDonald’s and Wendy’s for sources and power. It is the most challenging amp I’ve owned and I totally welcome this. I will be able to learn A TON from it. If you can barely afford the mephisto, i would say don’t buy it. It needs you to already have/own components that can sing with it. You are bringing Freddy Mercury as a lead singer to your room, but if the rest of your band members are at the same level of CREED then expect a disaster. Here are some brands that will probably fail miserably if you pair with mephisto: Lumin entry level nordost cables Any audioquest cable except dragon Any Wireworld cable except platinum Any Cardas cables (entire line) Any tricks such as using Y cables or xlr to rca adaptors etc Standard 15a outlets (20a better) Cheap stands ( I tried which is why critical mass is coming) There is absolutely zero tolerance from this amp when it comes to garbage. Premium fuel only or go home. Also, if you think you are going to put this amp inside some shelf or entertainment unit , good luck with that. |
Oh how I love this thread. Zip Cord and detail - keep in mind Viper doesn't like bass. So, a lack of bass = detail. That and the continuous offering and thoughts on components he has never owned. I don't believe in 15k speaker cables either... but there is a happy medium somewhere between stealing from a lamp in my house and being stolen from by Audioquest... As for Freddie Mercury - outstanding vocalist, no question. As for Creed - pretty crappy songs by that band, no question. But, Mark Tremonti is considered a darn good guitarist, lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Carry on... |
Not here to debate cost ratios of cables to a system but once you've heard what your components are truly capable of sounding like by using top tier cables it's hard to go back. I have heard two dealers use Odin1 cables on Wilson DAW speakers....I guess it was because they wanted every component and the speakers to sound their absolute best. So it all comes down to personal preference and what you are willing to spend. If you have 40k speakers and want to use zip cord well that's ok......wait that's not ok, bad example. So if you have a 150k system (without cables) and want to get the most out of it and spend 50k on cables and have the $...I know a lot of guys that have gone that route and would never trade down on cables. BTW Nordost Odin1 has been discontinued for around 2 years. Some dealers are offering 55-65% off of retail which makes it an easier nut to crack. I'm sure the OP is getting at least that deal on Nordost....definitely not on Wilson, Gryphon, Simaudio, dCS etc.... |
@carey1110 thanks for responding. I understand why WC is doing it and iam not questioning that at all. @whitecamaross WC let me simplify this and ask you a simple question say you have X amount of dollars ,electronics that could drive both daw and alexia 2 and a room that could support both speakers. for x amount if you can buy either a (sasha daw and odin 1) OR ( alexia 2 and valhalla 2 or tyr 2). WC/jay which option would you choose? |
Ain't no deals on Gryphon. It's s small network of dealers that carry the line and they all inform the distributor when there is someone calling around looking for a deal. The distributor KNOWS and then tells dealers that there is someone looking to steal either an amp or preamp or whatever and then the moment a dealer calls to order the item from the distributor, what do you the distributor asks ? Is this for such and such guy who's been calling around all my dealers for a deal ? Who is this item for ? Etc etc. That's one way Gryphon remains tightly controlled. I said it before and I'll say it again, once that Colosseum sells, (the one listed) the market will dry and that will be it for quite sometime. |
@goodsource. Alexia 2. Odin 1 won’t turn a Sasha Daw into an Alexia 2 and neither will mephisto. NOW is when I can say FACTUALLY, the Alexia 2 kills DAW. How many pairs of Alexia 2s have you seen listed online vs how many pairs of DAW ? and the Daw is much newer fyi...meaning it should be the one to be listed the least since it came out not long ago. The Alexia 2 came out like 18 months prior to the DAW. |
trudat, You are correct that less bass gives a psychoacoustic impression of more detail. Zip cord does reveal less bass than thicker cables. But when I played music with no significant bass, the thicker cables were grossly murky compared to zip. Mapleshade makes thin speaker cables because they heard what I did with thick cables. Actually, I enjoy TIGHT bass, which is less full and sounds less brawny powerful than lower quality bass. carey1110, What were the characteristics of zip cord that you heard and didn't like? |
I want to hopefully compare both and see which one I keep. Mephisto won't go on the artesania because I'm not about to take off the feet and embark on any sort of disassemble on an amp this expensive. I'll try the momentum s250 on both stands and see what happens. Video is getting uploaded (finally). You'll love Gryphon essence stereo and Fyne audio speakers. Those of you who are subscribed to the channel should get a a notification in about 45 minutes from now. |
Tonight I gotta be honest without bs: The REF6SE with 110hours now and the Merrill audio 118s and Wilson Alexia 2 are devastating me. They are completely making me want to go and sell every damn amp I own including mephisto. They are simply superb. Don't get me wrong, I know exactly what I am doing to help that combo out which I haven't shared just yet BUT i can't believe this. I'm really floored by it. Such a different presentation than the mephisto with arc6se. I have landed on FULL SYSTEM synergy with the Alexia 2. Now, the question will be IF the mephisto is still waiting on the Alexia 2 to fully open up so it can do its thing OR if it simply needs it'd sibling - Gryphon Pandora - in order to sing as it should or does it need a different linestage than the 3 I own here ? Again, system matching at this level is KEY. One can't jump to conclusions right away so don't start the BS with conclusions about the Merrill besting mephisto etc. If you come with that, I'll say it here: you're full of S*t. You are talking out of your a$$. |
don’t start the BS with conclusions about the Merrill besting mephisto etc. If you come with that, I’ll say it here: you’re full of S*t. You are talking out of your a$$. Isn’t that pretty much what you are implying with this statement ? Tonight I gotta be honest without bs:If not, then , Your statements are somewhat misleading. Or, are you saying that because the Mephisto cost So much more $$$, that, in your world, (the more it costs the better it sounds ),you just cannot let that happen ? |
So, is the Mephisto fully burned in.....say 3-400 hours? Have you put audiophile fuses in it? Do you have it on its most sonically pure stand and feet? Have you found the perfect power cords for it? If you have not done this homework.....then you will not get a passing grade on your test....Young Man......he he. Why would you buy a thoroughbred amp and run it on a muddy track? Why do you have the AR sitting on its $4 feet. Those are some of the muddiest feet in existence. The amp I made last year had them as the basic footer.....I did not even screw them on....because I told everyone to get rid of them. For $4....they are nice. But they are not serious. And you really want a serious platform beneath your super feet on the AR.....not sitting on an amp.....that is not serious, at all. You can also try damped weight on top of the preamp as well. The AR needs an audiophile fuse too! Lot's for you to do if you really want to find out what how good your components REALLY ARE. But maybe you just want to play and not find out what is really possible with anything. None the less, the sound of your system tonight is very good.....however, not that other system.....yikes...terrible. You can take much cheaper gear and achieve the same basic quality of sound if you tweak the cheaper system like crazy. This I know. I have been doing this exact thing for over 40 years. But if you tweaked the "Super Gear" that you have......you would never leave the chair.....your hair would stand on end.....you would cry and laugh and giggle like a little girl. You would praise life for such an experience. Maybe you really do not want to feel that good. You deserve it.....we all do. |
