So my first comment is the Ref6SE from the previous video sounds much better than the Dagostino preamp in this video. That’s observation one.
Observation two was I thought the Maggies not really up to the challenge, especially the first track with either presentation. Not impressive sound overall, imo.
As to Number 1 vs. Number 2, I thought Number 2 was better. |
Good feedback. Let’s wait for the rest to chime in. Again, the differences between this video and the previous were:
-Preamp (Dag on this one )
-I recorded at 78db on this one instead of 83db which is what I did on the last video.
-I also added a different song on this video in the beginning of each presentation |
@viber6 I like resolution, speed and as much engagement as possible.The Mephisto is the perfect balance in this regard and the bass control like Jay said above is second to none.The CH M1.1 lacks the engagement not matter what setting you put in, but it is still a killer amp.As of today i have not yet heard a better SS amp than the Mephisto stereo at least for my taste.I'm a big fan of Aries Cerat monoblocks but don't want to cope with tubes and i also like CH M1.1Mephisto is a good balance between Aries Cerat sound and CH sound.One thing to point out is the Mephisto is not dark as opposed to the lower models.All of my auditions were done at dearlers, the only combo i home auditioned was the Ypsilon pre-power combo.
Hope that helps.
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WC i also wish you would go and get the Mephisto's. Surely a shoot out between Essence and Mephisto is too much to ask for but also the Internet's greatest wish. Hard to imagine how the Essence could fail to impress and then harder to imagine what the Mephisto does better? |
BTW, from what I read from the Gryphon site......the Mephisto stereo amp has 500,000 uf of capacitance.....250K per channel. The mono block version uses all the caps for one channel...500K per channel......so, there is one million uf...in a pair of the MONO block Mephisto Solo amps. The Antileon actually has more capacitance than the Mephisto.....335K per channel. So, a pair of Antileon monos have 1.34 million uf (total of both mono channels)......again more than Mephisto monos. The Essence stereo amp has almost as much as the Mephisto....220K. per channel. Read here: https://gryphon-audio.dk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Tech.-Spec.-ALL-Products-05032020.pdf The Parasound JC1+ has 198K per channel......only slightly less than the stereo Mephisto’s 250K. https://parasound.com/jc1+.php Jay, please research your stuff before posting......The stereo Gryphon Mephisto (per channel) amp has 1.26 times the capacitance of the Parasound (per channel).....very little difference. The Relentless amps have 600K per amp.....or 1.2 million uf per pair of mono blocks. What this all this means is practically nothing......because, lots of things make for the final sound. You could have 2 million uf per channel and the amp could sound bad. Just letting you know what the actual figures are.. |
Well we still have to wait and see what Jay's ultimate amp deal is.I wouldn't be surprised if he was able to get a good deal on Mephisto Solos, on the other hand Relentless monos would be a huge surprise IMO.Wait and see.
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alright Ricevs: i think it is time to school you a little. Please grab your paper and pen and take notes: (i will do this one time only and no more will be heard about this from me) here is ONE of the specs of the mephisto: -Eight 56,000 microFarad capacitors with low ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) for a total capacity of 448,000 microFarad/100V smoothes the voltage to the output supply. - Next Go to this image: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/news/pics/gryphon_mephisto_inside_large.jpg Next: Count the brown capacitors that are mentioned above. Do you see EIGHT PER SIDE? that means 8 per channel. So how much is that total? Close to a million microfarads rights? Are you taking notes? Ok then let me continue. In case you HAVE NEVER NOTICED, any time you have ANY STEREO AMP say for instance that it has 100,000 microfarads per channel, this means that the mono version will have TWICE the capacitance because it is using both channels. You can easily see this if you look closely at the specs of the essence amplifier and compare the mono version vs the stereo version. Unfortunately, that is a typo on Gryphon's part and on the distributors part. They failed to mention that the specs on the mephisto stereo when it comes to capacitance are about PER CHANNEL. Now, you can go on and take a seat again and let the show continue. thanks |
Maybe I am confused about what jays post about all the amps meant and why people are posting about the amps he might be brining in. A few days ago he posted several different brands and a huge deal, I had the impression all those would be in house with this deal, to compare at the same time. If so not sure why others keep posting about his next move with amps, as the mephisto was one of them. Or could be I just misunderstood that post and doing some wishful thinking, lol.
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wishful thinking indeed... |
# 2 for me.
listened once and picked #2, no contest, then scrolled down and saw everybody else did the same. I suspect 2 is the Merill...
Jay,
Mike at Sun coast uploaded a few videos with Fyne speakers, you may wanna listen to them if you haven't already. Not crazy about the looks but the sound, my oh my...
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Thanks for the Vid....#2 better in every way. I also think the Ref 6 would have added to the overall sound. |
i had the pleasure to hear the Fyne Audio F1-12 and to be honest with you, i was blown the hell away by them. They sound so CLEAR, BIG, WIDE, and have some of the best " you are there" presentation i have heard before.
I won’t say much other than they killed the $60k speaker i heard right after. I had SERIOUSLY considered buying the Fyne Audio F1-12 speaker as a replacement speaker because i couldn’t believe how amazing it sounded. I actually told Mike to do the Essence Gryphon (before he even had it) with the Fyne Audios and he was blown away once he heard this recommendation in his store. I knew that combo would work fantastic for him and i am glad he listened :)
If you were to ask me, this system would work AMAZING:
ARC REF6SE
FYNE AUDIO F1’12 (or the model just below it)
Gryphon Essence stereo amp
Chord Dave/ DCS Bartok
Wireworld Platinum speaker cables
That system above, WITHOUT EVEN HEARING IT EXACTLY AS I OUTLINED IT would put a ton of systems to shame. If you are thinking of putting a system together that WORKS and that will give you tremendous clarity, musicality, detail, liveliness then do the above and i promise you that you won’t look back.
My hard head just likes to make things complicated, but if i had to build a system with my eyes closed without spending as much money as i have, that is what i would do WITHOUT A QUESTION.
HELL...maybe that is the speaker i have coming :) |
You’re doing systems for us to hear, not a forever system, lol. So different goals. The videos I had seen previously of the fynes did sound good |
some people are looking for a system they can enjoy and what i outlined above would probably be something that most people would love. I detest speakers that are warm, dull, boring, slow, lethargic. There are many brands that sound like that to me such as Sonus Faber Amati Futura for instance.... Of course there is another speaker brand that comes to mind that i still wonder why people find it nice sounding when not only does it look aesthetically ugly, but it just does not really make me jump out of my seat? yes i have heard it before too... however, to each their own and i gotta respect people’s choices.
The only reason why Fyne audio has not taken off is because it is relatively a new company, but even as new as it is, it is already stumping on some brands that have been doing this for a long time.
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Behind Fyne I heard are some ex Tannoy guys. Can see resemblance there, look like modernized Tannoy line to me.
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WCSS—any thoughts on revisiting McIntosh 2301? |
None at this time... I might bring home some McIntosh 901 monos at some point though... |
You know your talking about HARBETH's....JUST SAY IT!!! :)
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I like the coaxial design of the Fyne Audio speakers. The titanium tweeter promises to be outstanding, used down to 750 Hz in the F1-12 and F1-10 models. Titanium is rigid with low mass, a great combination for a driver. The F1-10 might have greater clarity than the F1-12 below 750 Hz, due to its smaller 10" driver vs the 12" driver in the F1-12. What are the MSRP's of each?
Don't ignore the Tekton MOAB for $4500, which uses the low mass tweeter array down to 300 Hz. The materials might not be of the quality of the Fyne, but using low mass drivers down to as low freq as possible is desirable for clarity. Ricevs raves about MOAB.
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Sounds like Jay is talking about Tekton’s? I have have the Ulfers for my mains in my home theater and have a set of moabs ordered for the rears. |
New video has been uploaded. Back to the ref6se and 2 amps. Let me know your thoughts |
Well yesterday I liked #2 amp better but today I preferred #1.....don't know if it was the addition of the Ref6 or what. Thx for the video. |
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With regard to the Fyne speakers why the hell would the 10 inch be preferable to the 12 inch model. The crossover point is the same with greater surface area the excursion will be smaller at any given volume which equals less distortion, The sensitivity of the larger woofer will also equal less distortion due to a lesser load on the amplifier and less series resistance on the tweeter. By this same logic should you choose a Wilson Tune Tot over a Chronosonic? Viber why do have this thing against bass? All music is not chamber music, in a large symphonic piece there are tympani's, bass trombones,double bass, bass drums, and pipe organs alll of which are minimized on smaller woofers, this is not clarity, this is removing part of the spectrum so the remaining part becomes more apparent. Not to even mention pop or rock music where often the bass line is the emotional factor which causes to tap your foot and sway to the music. I guess you have never been to a club or dance bar where the music is all encompassing and penetrates your soul perpetrated by the bass rhythm, then again probably not, you would rather Tiptoe Thru The Tulips. WC I have followed your thread from day one and appreciate your efforts and am sorry to interject here, It's just I and many others here are tired of V's continual spouting off the same old message. Awaiting your next surprise!!
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New teaser video has been uploaded... |
shannere,
Much of what you say is true. For power at higher volumes, the larger woofer is better. But the larger woofer has more mass, so the smaller one is more nimble and probably has more clarity at low/moderate volume. This principle of how smaller drivers are more nimble with greater clarity than larger drivers is utilized by Eric Alexander, the designer of the Tekton Design speakers. The 14 tweeters have the equivalent drive power as a single 9" midrange. Everyone who owns the various Tekton models, including grey9hound here, has commented on their extraordinary clarity. I mentioned the Tekton here because of its use of small drivers down to 300 Hz, similar to the use of the tweeter of the Fyne Audio top models down to 750 Hz. I believe that is a main factor in the clarity of both companies' speakers. The cheaper Fyne speakers use a different tweeter down to only 1800 or 1900 Hz, and the larger driver below that, so the crucial midrange from 750-1800 Hz would have better clarity from the smaller driver in the top models.
You preferentially value bass in music, which is fine for the rock/pop that you mostly listen to, but most melodic content of all music is in the midrange, with HF providing the needed harmonics of that. Since bass instruments have lots of midrange and HF harmonics, in order to accurately reveal the total sound of these instruments, accuracy in mids and HF is essential. Otherwise, the bass sounds boomy and is at best powerful, but without its true articulation.
How much do you know about symphonic music? With the exception of organ music, there is no deep bass in most pieces from the years 1500 to 1800. Even after 1800, there is a sprinkling of deep bass here and there, but the main musical content is well above 50 Hz. There is a popular piece often used in demos, Saint Saens Organ Symphony, which does have organ notes but no lower than 32 Hz. I admit that the sections of deep organ notes are missing on my system, but I am not willing to sacrifice midrange/HF clarity for most music so I can play this piece and a few others.
Everyone must make choices with compromises. No system does everything superlatively well. Go to a live, unamplified concert and sit close to get everything.
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New surprise...video being uploaded as I type this.. |
My speakers-Infinity Kappa 9's , forced me to have sufficiently high current amplification to drive them .
Notoriously difficult to drive with 2 ohm impedance
I finally settled on a pair of Metaxas Solitaires and they really make the kappa's sing.
Metaxas is an Aussie designed and built power amplifier and for the price will give the wonderful American amps a run for their money. |
On the second video I'm going with # 2.
Now I'll go watch the last video with your take on them. :)
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Interesting about the second blind shootout.
The videos have been coming so quickly that I didn’t get enough time to give a super critical listen to that second one. But I will say that on the first listen I wasn’t able to pick a clear winner.
That surprised me at the time but now it makes sense. With the Merrill out of the mix and the Dag in against the Parasound, that closed up the gap (ie, removed the superior amp and put one in more in line with the Parasound).
Unfortunately for Dag, yet another indictment of it, as again it struggled to even beat Parasound. I do think I had it maybe slightly ahead if I recall.
Nice choice on speakers. They’ll be a bit of an upgrade on the DAWs but they are really similar, just bigger woofers. The Wilson streak continues...
would be really interesting to learn what other speakers you were considering |
I will disclose what speakers I chose later this week.
On a different note, I had a dealer friend of mine come over last night for a brief moment and he listened to the Merrill 118s with the arc6se versus the full moment set up. He said he " the Merrill and arc " killed the Momentum based on the brief listening session we had. Granted, this was a quick session but his initial impression was " wdf, that's class d playing ? "
He said it sounded outstanding and the control and speed is far better than the Dag set up. I actually called him out on his comments because he was one of the many people who didn't give class d a chance.
I will admit, the Merrill and arc 6se is DANGEROUS.... |
Anyone who listens OBJECTIVELY will reach same conclusion.
On blind video 1 I would have bet the farm that Number 2 was Merrill, and it was. The comments showed 99% picked it over Parasound.
Then on blind video #2 I was not expecting a close battle, but it was. Wasn’t expecting because I assumed you’d leave 118s in the mix. When you revealed then it all made sense.
Am I surprised that Dag and Parasound are competitive? Not really.
Am I surprised that Merrill destroys Dag in head to head as your dealer observed? Not at all. I’d be surprised if they didn’t.
Now when you unveil the new Gryphon it will lap the Merrill’s just like Colliseum did. |
WC,
It appears that the Colosseum is gone, so it is unfortunate that you never did a video A/B with the Merrill. Please give us your verbal ratings of the Merrill before you move on to other things. I want to calibrate my rating of Merrill with yours, so I can extrapolate your findings on other amps to see if I should consider them. Thanks.
Maggies and other inefficient speakers obviously need lots power for very dynamic music. But at 80 dB, sensible levels with brief 90-100 dB peaks on things like "Keith don't go", 1 to 100 watts (at most) will drive Maggies to satisfactory, natural levels, with better clarity than any dynamic speaker. You'll see about the new Alexia 2. I agree about the limitations of Maggies for very dynamic music. Even the efficient older GTA I heard is better in all respects to any Maggie I have heard, and the newest GTA I will hear soon promises to be even better.
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Now that you’ve given your lukewarm review of the Maggies and how they unfortunately fall apart with complicated dynamic music, maybe move on from the planar experiment and get a worthy #2 speaker in behind the Wilsons.
Maggies fun like you say but really without a sub, never had much of a chance to be excellent, and the limitations that you cataloged didn’t even really have to do with lack of bass, they were in addition to that bass deficiency.
Something perhaps like one of those Fyne’s you were talking about. Or Spendor D9.2 ($11k). Or a current Dynaudio, ugly as they are. Or Kef blade or blade 2???? |
Nope. No Dynaudio for me or splendor. The magnepan will probably be here for a bit longer until I get my "ak47" of an amplifier tomorrow. I want to hear what it can do with the 20.7.
Dynaudio is no longer of any interest to me. I used to like it but their new stuff just doesn't grab me. I prefer to buy a fyne audio instead |
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Blades would be a waste of time too. |
Finally had time to listen again to the second blind shootout. I thought it was very close, but I’ll give the edge ever so slightly to Number One, the Momentum S250 over the JC1+.
This is actually the very first time I have picked the Dagostino in any of shootouts it has been involved in. |
I’ll say it. New video out, lol |
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speedbump6,
I have been following you on the interesting Tekton Design Moab thread. Tell everyone here about what other speakers you compared with the Moab and the flagship Ulf (I'll never remember the full name and its correct spelling, lol). If I wanted to get ONE dynamic driver speaker with a rating of 9 in everything, I would get the Moab with all Be tweeters for $14K. Best value would be the standard Moab at $4.5K.
grey9hound,
Do the same for your beloved Double Impact.
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thieliste,
Thanks for your elaboration on the Mephisto amp. As I understand you, the Mephisto gives a combination of the tube sound of the Aries Cerat and the "precision" of the CH Precision.
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Why did you get the alexia 2 over the fyne speakers ?
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@viber6 Well at least it has the meat on the bone of Aries Cerat monos and speed,resolution, sweetness and openess of CH Precision.The Bass control and slam is much better than the other 2 brands.I cannot think of a better all in one package than the Mephisto stereo today.If you don't have the budget for a Mephisto i would definitely look at an Antileon Evo and not the Essence.Just my 2 cents.
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In response to the previous posts including Viber6 comments regarding dynamics- physics dictate the actual physical limitations of a specific driver. A planar magnetic driver used on its own Will inherently only be able to move that only that much air to produce the lower frequencies- this will ultimately pale in comparison to a dynamic woofer. The only way to successfully integrate a dynamic woofer into a planar design used to have an open baffle servodriven woofer system.
This is achieved with an onboard computer which is contained within the servo Amp. Instead of using a slave system where one woofer is connected to the other woofers The better approach would be where each woofer is independently wired with a plus and minus connector to the actual servo computer.
Byutilizing this type of system you are essentially matching the figure 8 dispersion pattern of the panels and are affectively eliminating the boom and overhang you get with a conventional woofer as the servo system will effectively pull the woofer back as fast as it excurts.
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On my way to listen to the Gryphon essence. Stay tuned .. |
Viber maybe I’m wrong, but thought the ulfers with all be was closer to 19-20k |
haha, listen to the essense and pick up his memphisto i bet
As to the question of "why Wilson?" that somebody asked, have you been following the thread and videos? Look at what he always comes back to, and it tells you all you need to know about what he finds to be the best sounding. If he hasn’t had a Wilson and been extolling its virtues over the last year (DAW or Alexia 1), he’s had something else and been lamenting that it wasn’t a Wilson or comparing it to a Wilson. Read between the lines.
Wilson speakers, Gryphon amps (this will be confirmed if the new amp is a Gryphon - if it’s something else then there is no preferred amp brand yet), and Audio Research preamps. Budget category (compared to the deep end of this thread) is Luxman for his preferred (2 of 3 as best all time he’s owned for $$).
That’s the best way to judge what WC thinks is best sound quality -- what he keeps going back to and keeps the longest. In the case of Wilson, he was only able to stand being without one for a couple weeks since the DAWs left, and several times when he talked about the Maggie speakers on the videos during this two week period (or whatever it was) he ended up drawing comparisons to Wilson. |
