No guesses here, I’m patient and just enjoying the ride, wherever it takes us.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
My prediction is that the Merrill will blow away the Dag, from what we have heard already, and your previous comments on Christine and 118. You said the Dag is in the sweet camp. More interesting will be comparing the 118 to Gryphon, using any preamp or DCS direct without another preamp. Merrill has good clarity, great dynamics and smoothness, so let's see how it rates against Gryphon. I'll tell where I think the Merrill rates, from my own experience and your presentation, on the spectrum from speed to sweet, after you make your assessment. Yes, we agree that the 20.7 has more bass and less HF emphasis than the 3.7i. I wrote earlier about these findings with the original models 3 and 20. The HF ribbon is probably the same in the 20.7 and 3.7i (too bad the website doesn't give much info), so the bigger size of the 20.7 tilts the tonal balance toward bass. |
I have yet to be influenced by anyone when it comes to audio. I believe in doing my own trials which is what this journey is about. I use feedback/comments on items I've never owned to simply see if It strikes my interest but I end up making the final decision on whether something is or isn't all that based on ownership. |
WC, Yes, I am itching to relate my own experiences with the Merrill 114, which is very close to the 118, according to Merrill. I just hope you do the 118/Gryphon shootout as I described. We can all listen to it, your own assessment, and then I will chime in. That will be most meaningful. I also believe that you and I have different ratings of sweetness in general. I rate the Merrill 114 as moderately sweet, but you might rate it as neutral. And what I rate as neutral, you might rate as cold and sterile. Once we figure out the correlation of your ratings with mine, I can figure out how I might rate the Gryphon in my own mind after you rate it against Merrill. The small difference between the 114 and 118 might be like this--114 sweetness is 4, speed is 7. 118 sweetness is 3.8, speed is 7.2. That's all I'll say now. The ball is in your court. Both the 20.7 and 3.7i have the same efficiency, according to Magnepan. So the 20.7 will also benefit from high power, probably requiring even more power to bring out its deeper bass. That's why the 10+ dB greater efficiency of the GTA is one way that will make that speaker more useful to you. But it is good that you are learning more about planars in your own way. |
Viber6 You know nothing of the differences between the 114 and 118 except what Merrill told you. Does he really want you to know the truth? If you could afford the biggies and you wanted to demo them......do you think he would have told you the same exact thing? Did he play you? Is the 3.7i very close to the 20.7? Why would he make a $16K amp that sounds almost the same as his $36K mono blocks. There might be a world of difference. The only one who knows is he who has A/Bed on his own....in his own system....both totally burned in and turned on for the same hours and with the same power cord, etc. I personally never trust a manufacturer or a dealer....they have vested interest. Yes, I am in the business....do not believe a word I say. Trust your own ears. Now maybe if you know the manufacturer/dealer personally and have known him for years then maybe you can trust what he says. Always, trust your own ears. You only know what you have heard.....in your system......Thinking you know something without listening is just guessing. Has anyone besides a dealer done a serious A/B with the 114 and 118s? Just read a review on the 20.7 where they measured the sensitivity of the speaker at 80db......not the 86 Maggie claims....No wonder these things need such a ginormous amp. Two of my friends are crossing over the 97 db 15 inch Lii speaker on open baffle to either a BlieSMa 1.5 inch 97db Beryllium tweeter ($700 the pair) at 1.2K and the other person is digital biamping at 3K? with a 94db open back AMT from Dayton ($119 each). High impedance...high efficiency....dynamic sound....low cost...super transparent......don't need no stinkin ginormous amp! Use my super modded Purifi 200 watt amp and add a couple of subs and turn it up baby! |
Ricevs, You are correct that if I haven't A/B'ed the 114 and 118 side by side, I don't really know precisely. But my impressions of the tonal character of the 114 match reviews of the 116 and 118, once you carefully read the reviews. What are the sonic characteristics of your modded Purifi amp vs your EVS1200? Of course, the power rating of your EVS is higher, but how about the clarity/resolution comparison? |
Tonality by itself means little. You could have a warmer than real amp that is super transparent and fast. You could have a neutral (natural warmth) amp that is super transparent and fast. And you could have a cool and dry sounding amp that is super transparent and fast. You could take the Gryphon and with eq make it sound way warmer.....It would not lose its speed or clarity.....just add some warmth. I think a lossless eq system is ideal. You could eq your system for each recording and keep the eq setting in your digital preamp on a file. This way, you always get the sound you like no matter what the recording.....I thought of this kind of preamp 30 years ago. We have the technology to do it very easily today. We can synthesis all kinds of sounds as well as eq What I want is to hear every detail possible without it sounding dry, cool and hard. I want natural warmth and super detail....this gives me goosebumps. No one has ever called my products warm or bright. Most say they sound real (for the money...never made anything state of the art except my Ultimate Attenuators....ah the good ole days).....like live music. I mostly test my equipment using live natural music recorded using just two mics. Chesky....Clarity Recordings, etc. Listening to Chico Freeman.....The Emissary.....on Clarity Recordings today (premium gold CD....treated like crazy)......great transparent recording. Not sure yet as I no longer own an EVS1200 amp. Also, I am listening on a completely different system. I will be A/Bing with the EVS1200 at a friends in a week or so and will then know its (even more tweaked than this moment) status versus the older finished amp. What I have heard, so far, is really really good. I am sure that in its current status it would blow minds. This is not my own amp but modifications that can be done to several amps that use the Purifi module and also have an input board that allows all types of discrete op amps to be rolled (currently VTV, Nord and Apollon). I have totally transformed the amp that I have here. I am trying something today that has maybe been done once in a class D amp in the last 20 years.....I am hopeful for a major class D breakthrough. |
I remember my first true “Hi-Fi” setup. A Sony AVR and psd speakers, four, two rears, for an early surround type setup. I was listening to law and order and was hearing police radios in the courtyard of my townhouse. I kept looking out the window, it couldn’t see them. Took me thirty minutes to realize it was in background of the tv show that I was hearing, never heard that from the built in tv speakers. So now I love to hear things that I never heard before, in a system, as I upgrade. |
Ricevs, Agree about EQ. "Fast" is hard to define and explain, especially in electronics. Circuit speed is roughly the speed of light, but that doesn’t translate into listening characteristics of "fast." The best way I can think of it is the startle feeling you get when a truck horn blasts at you, or when you hear the crack of a golf club, baseball bat, etc. For music, the startle from trumpets, snap of guitar, etc. This is due to higher freq components/overtones of lower freq fundamentals. But warmth is due to smoothing over of these higher freq overtones. Live, unamplified instruments heard at close distance, are coherent but not warm. There is nothing smoothed over. |
WC, I might guess that you are methodically on a quest to try the best planar speakers. Moving up to the Maggie 30.7, I am intrigued with its design. The narrow single panels, when placed on the inside, contain HF and middle and upper midrange freq. Toed in to face your head, they would provide ultimate detail and focus for this model. The large panel which is the width of the 20.7, provides the huge bass that you are seeking. My only reservation is the huge inflation of the lower midrange from that large panel. Deep male voices might sound inflated compared to higher pitched female voices. This would need to be heard to properly judge. So this 30.7 has the potential to give everything--clarity, focus, detail, and fullness of bass. I will be hearing the latest GTA with Steve soon, and still predict it will win on all counts, for planars at least. |
Nah, the planars were a fun little side diversion and scratched an itch, but each time he replaces them with the DAWs it will be an "OMG I forgot how great these were" moment (like he recently commented on, even with just the Merrills, let alone Gryphon). The planars just have too many inherent deficiencies that are non-negotiable as anything more than a passing fancy if unwilling to add subs, as WC has indicated. Plus it's onward and upward toward the illusive holy grail of speaker satisfaction, perhaps embodied by Alexx, Alexandria, or Chornosonic, which is where he's always been pulled in this sonic journey (he may or may not know it yet, but eventually he'll get there - haha). Look to the massive turnover of equipment, yet one brand tends to always be there as he has grown in the journey at least in the past year, as he moves higher and higher up the mountain. Others come and go and maybe impress for a day or a week, but over the last year only one brand has had the staying power. (of course now that I've pointed this out it'll probably cause WC to buck the trend just for the sake of it, LOL) |
WCSS already owned the best planar/panel speakers out there. The Neoliths. The room was just too small. WCSS likes dynamics way too much to own most planar speakers and values coherence enough that using separate subwoofers in most cases will leave him lacking. WCSS simply needs big ass speakers that require big ass power. But I can imagine him hooking up some Neoliths with a big ol amp, but using some zip cord to get that elusive detail... that only zip cord can provide and Viper can appreciate! |
viber6 - we should have the new Reference 3 speakers here in our sound room in Massapequa in few weeks - we still feel this is our best location not in our store in Huntington at Sound Insight as we feel having this set up in a real world application as opposed to in a store setting would give the customer a much better idea of how it would actually sound in their home. As far as Ricevs Comments on the sensitivity of the Maggie’s it would not surprise me at all that they are that inefficient - due to the construction of the maggie membrane and the crossover that is employed this is probably responsible for the inefficiency of the speaker and robbing the amplifier of its rated power. As previously stated the GT speaker employs a state of the art membrane that does not suffer from the resonance problems as a typical planar speaker and superior transparency due to no crossover on the main newly designed panel. All are welcome to audition the new Reference 3. Will keep all posted when they are set up and ready to audition. |
So a lot has been said today on here. Hmm... where do i begin? 1. i can not go into too much depth when comparing the 3.7i to the 20.7 anymore than what i have already said on the video. What i can add is that the sound is "different" than conventional woofer/tweeter. It takes time for your ears to adjust to the new sound before you begin to discover the neat things a planar design does that a woofer/tweeter does not. Is the 20.7 better than the 3.7i? yes... i think a deaf person can hear the difference if i am being honest. 2. Merrill Audio 118s vs 116s: i can’t speak about the 116s because i have not owned them. I can speak about the 118s by saying these few things:
4. I don’t believe ANYONE has ever used full nordost odin & dragon powercords on a full Merrill set up (if you know of anyone, please share this). I plan to show you all what this set up can do with top end cables. 5. Full Merrill set up with Wilson sounds AMAZING AMAZING. I am not not kidding either. i will try to video this before i am "Wilsonless" 6. I can admit that YES, i like the dynamics, slam and huge sound from wilson audio, but i also liked the Neoliths and Vivid Audio G1s. 7. If i am being honest with you all, i probably prefer Wilson over Magico. This isn’t a knock on Magico, but i feel Wilson is probably more "me". 8. As far as me needing big ass speakers and amps, there is only some truth to that, but not really the case each and every time. However, there is something that some of you don’t understand: Once you own a big speaker with dynamics and huge soundstage, it is HARD AS HELL to go back to a smaller speaker. I tested this when i owned the Neoliths. The speakers that followed my Neoliths sounded like bookshelf speakers in comparison. 9. I am totally enjoying the 20.7s and i totally dig the idea of having a woofer/tweeter speaker and a planar as well because they just don’t sound alike. It is truly amazing to be able to change the flavor of the presentation on the fly so you never ever get bored. That said, i don’t want to buy subwoofers for the magnepans. I don’t have the time or energy to dive into the world of dialing subs and crossovers. I am sure it would be so much better for the 20.7s if i did that, but at some point i need to draw a line with how far i need to take this. Anyhow, today i could not upload a video because i had a ton of things to do. I will try to have the final video of my Sasha DAW this week. I am going to let you all hear the Daw with Merrill Audio. It is EXTREMELY HARD for me to part ways with the DAW, but i can’t keep 3 pairs of speakers. |
WC, Agree with most of your findings above. It is true that there are obvious differences between the 3.7i and 20.7. If you want more bass and less HF, then 20.7 is better. If you want more HF and can settle with 40 Hz bass, 3.7i is better. The HF ribbon doesn't bite--it is smooth and extended. Which one is better, depends on your tonal balance preference, since the drivers are much the same. To maximize the performance of both the 3.7i and 20.7, toe in properly. Please do an A/B with Merrill 118 vs Gryphon using any preamp or DCS direct. Only a guess from your recent remarks--Gryphon is more revealing and less sweet than the Merrill. Let's see, to settle this question. It would be interesting, since the Merrill is a flagship GaN class D, and the Gryphon a flagship class A, AB. Can the Merrill unseat your Gryphon? |
So, i dont remember when i took delivery of my Gryphon, but after it arrived, there has not been one amplifier that i rather own AFTER it landed here. This means, every amplifier that has come through my room after the Gryphon arrived has not been an amplifier that i feel could replace my Gryphon. As a matter of fact, i feel like only another Gryphon can unseat my Gryphon. That said, i dont want anyone to think that this means the other amps i have owned are no good - that is not the case. I simply prefer THE GRYPHON and it keeps being the one amp that simply sounds superb with ANY speaker. Hell, i almost bought the Antileon EVO last month, but there are rumors that the Antileon, Colosseum & Mephisto sound very different and i am a bit nervous about spending big money on a Antileon or Mephisto and somehow still prefer the tonality of the Colosseum. |
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Hi All, Just thought I would jump in here to talk about terminology regarding driver types and also to touch on efficiency. Maggies as well as my GTA Reference 3’s are planar magnetic and ribbon. The Maggie 3.7 and 20.7 are 3 way designs incorporating a planar woofer and mid range driver and a ribbon tweeter. They may call their driver a quasi ribbon on some of their less expensive models..but its a planar tweeter...Quasi ribbon is just advert hype. Audiophiles know the catch phrase "Ribbon" so manufacturers play on that to make sales. My Reference 3 is a 2 way design with a planar driver that for simplicity sake we will could call a woofer, but in actuality its a full range driver, and a ribbon tweeter. This whole full range ribbon thing dates back to Apogee who named their speaker this for a bit of advertising hype I would imagine... http://www.reality-audio.com/full_range.html In actuality its a planar bass panel and a ribbon mid and tweeter. There really is no such thing as a full range ribbon. Regarding efficiency..,Maggies are listed by the manufacturer at about 86db, because the use inexpensive ceramic magnets. My GTA’s use high energy neodymium magnets which are very costly but they give the speaker an efficiency of 93db and the lack of x-over on the planar makes it very easy for the amp to drive with flat 4 ohm load. This design endows my speaker with "Jump factor" something all the watts you throw at a less sensitive speaker cant make up for. It also allows for listening at low levels without losing dynamics. I have been a long time fan of Maggies having bought my first pair in 1984...and other models in the ’90’s. They were the reason I got into building my own planar ribbons. For the $$ they are hard to beat. I think Jay is a dipole guy like me..hard to go back to boxes once you fall in love with the openness of a panel speaker. Greg |
As far as subs go for the Maggie’s, I have a set of REL model 25s, those can connect directly to the speaker connections without the need for any crossovers. If I did the Maggie’s, that’s what I would match them with in my system. Not much work involved with that, other than just moving that weight into place, but seems that’s a common occurrence in jays room anyways. No more Wilson’s, so sounds like we will see something else take their place,considering the possible landmark deal that was mentioned. I do love this journey, you never know where it will take you, so makes it much more interesting like that. Like a movie whose plot turns on a dime and you didn’t see it coming. My problem is if I try to emulate Jay, I will be divorced because I don’t get rid of equipment, and there would be no room for her. Well maybe she will say I don’t have room in my life for her if I did that, lol. Why can’t they just love you for who you are, and realize, you can’t take the money with you anyways, enjoy it while you still can. |
Greg, Thanks for your info on your GTA speaker. I like the division of the 6 foot planar panel into 3 sections. This is like my Audiostatic membrane which has buttons down its 48" shirt every 4 inches. Martin Logan used to have horizontal bars every 8 inches or so dividing their long panels. I believe this design feature tightens the membrane, reducing resonance and distortion as you indicate. |
So is the Gryphon the best sounding power amplifier period end of story? Can you remember back when pass labs was the best? What makes Gryphon the be all and end all of amplifiers? Will Gryphon sound great on vintage tannoys or other 1950s Altecs jensen jbl etc? I hope you havent gone down the no way back rabbit hole of conspiracy audio. Its a never ending quest for audio illusion perfection that doesnt exist |
Pass labs xs300, Momentum , gryphon are all awesome amps. I love pass labs as a company because they are always willing to work with customers. I hate Gryphon’s distributor because they are lazy and don’t want to help much. Does that sound like conspiracy audio to you ? Do I need to bash manufacturers with a sledge hammer in order to get people interested in my opinion? Gryphon is amazing and I hope they end up hiring a new distributor once their contract is up with their current distributor. The only thing I applaud the distributor for is that they are always looking at the used market and run a tight ship with dealers by forbidding them to discount any current product. Again, CURRENT PRODUCTS... Do you think it is coincidence that you don’t see mephistos and antileon evos show up on the used market here in the U.S. ? Most people just keep those amps because they sound good and because they paid quite a bit of money for it. For me, it’s an outstanding product and I can’t say a bad thing about the product itself. When it comes to amplifiers, I really don't think owners go out looking to replace gryphon unless they are getting another gryphon. It is THAT GOOD. |
I’ve had Gryphon Antileon EVO Stereo in my room for one week with Sasha DAW. It is unforgettable experience and is the best amp I’ve heard so far! I compared it head to head to CH A1.5. They are very different. CH is not cold, it’s very delicate and musical. HF are very good. But after Gryphon it sounds too polite. With Gryphon music just jumps out of the speakers. It is difficult to explain in words, you have got to hear it:) And the base is simply at another level. Since then, I’ve tried Accuphase, Aesthetix Atlas, Grandinote and plan to audition Momentum next week, but the Gryphon sound is deeply burned in my brain now, and what I really want to audition is Mephisto. |
Abedirov, Mike Fremer in his CH Precision M1.1 (I think) review, said that its bias adjustment changes the sound from very cold to very warm. Most of his review relates to 1 particular setting only. In your terms, I would describe the Merrill 114 as polite. Polite=sweet. WC, These other Gryphons may be the way to go. But first, tell us and demonstrate the difference between the Colosseum and Merrill 118. Is the 118 polite compared to the Colosseum? I will elaborate after you tell all, promise. |
viber, CH amps do not have bias adjustment, they have negative feedback adjustment from 0 to 100%. I tried all settings up to 75%, it does not change the character of the amp, but 0% setting is the preferred one, IMHO. When I say polite, I mean mainly less dynamic, but it can also mean sweet to a much lesser degree. CH is definitely a more forgiving amp compared to Gryphon, but I am not sure it’s a good thing:) |
@speedbump6, Totally agree with Jay. Great last sentence. @whitecamaross If you can’t keep three pairs of speakers, then keep one of each type. DAW plus whatever Maggie you like. No need to have two of the same type. IMHO of course. (made this comment without looking at todays updates. Sorry to see DAW gone, but looking forward to new speakers) BTW, very interesting comment on the Gryphon. |
Fyi: this is a 250 dollar microphone now and not the other one I used for testing. I think this mic grabs far more detail and information than the last one. I’m actually impressed how good it sounds even on phone speakers... This gives you a closer look and feel of what my system sounds like in here. Nothing was boosted on the mic EQ either. Everything is set to flat. |
abedirov, Thanks for correcting me on the CH Precision amp. Yes, Mike Fremer tried various negative feedback settings. The more negative feedback, the cooler was the tonal character. Frankly, I am an agnostic on the benefits of negative feedback. On the one hand, Merrill's 118/116/114 use no negative feedback, which he believes reduces speed. On the other hand, Soulution and Bruno Putzeys of Mola Mola believe that negative feedback greatly reduces distortion. If the circuitry is fast, then negative feedback has no disadvantage. WC, Someone, possibly on your thread, did an extensive listening comparison of the Merrill 118 with CH Precision, Dag, Soulution 501. He said Merrill was very close to the tonal character and detail of CH. Since Abedirov found the CH Precision more forgiving than his Gryphon Antileon, I might extrapolate and guess that the Merrill is more forgiving than his Gryphon. I found the Merrill 114 forgiving in my system, correlating with your statement that you can't get the Merrill 118 to ever sound bright, even with Nordost Odin cables I am guessing. As I recall, except for the special case of incompatibility of the Gryphon with Cardas speaker cable, you may have found the Gryphon a little bright with Odin. Am I on target with your findings on that? |