Death of MSRP prices is taking over...
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My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
WC, Great article. A demo in a retail shop is of limited use, since the customer needs to take home the product to see how it works in his system. Maybe well set up speakers can give an idea of what they sound like. The main problem for the retailer is overhead for a lot of floor space and inventory. If the retailer had just 1 room, with a few unused speakers on the side, it would cut the overhead and prices could be lowered. The retailer could be used as a paid consultant for new technologies like servers/networks. As for the claims of some retailers that say that more speakers in a room will cause interactions with the ones you are listening to, this is a relatively trivial effect. Retail must be saved, and the only way is to cut overhead. All this serves to emphasize the value of what you are doing. Just slow down the revolving door so you have time to evaluate and present your findings. |
I was just correcting your info (you said the Colosseum listed for $50K). Your Momentum S250 lists for $35K now. Could be the Mephisto is better than any mono blocks you have heard.....since it suppose to be mucho better than the Colosseum. Lots of reviews of the Mephisto, they all love it. Does not matter whether something is stereo or mono.....just how it sounds. If this were not true then the stereo Colosseum would not be on your top 5 best of all times list. Any of the pieces you own are a lot of money for a lot of audiophiles. My whole system does not cost as much as one of your interconnects. I think the DAG preamp sitting on the best stand with the best fuse and power cord and going directly to the Mephisto on the best stand and using the best fuse and power cord could be an endgame pair for most people. However, I think you would blow your mind if you used a battery powered 3000+ watt low distortion sine wave inverter for the whole system and then ran a Puritan filter after it. You would be completely off the grid (same sound day and night, no power surges), and have so low of noise and purity of sound that you would crap your pants. Check out these videos about the Puritan and inverters.....then imagine using them both together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VX4buciMLM&t=29s http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0119/Goal_Zero_Yeti_400_Lithium_Portable_Power_Station_Review.htm |
ricevs, Thanks for the info. However, the reviewer of the Yeti merely says the sound is ooh & ahh, amazing, etc. He doesn't describe the "improvement" in sound in meaningful ways. The same goes for his review of the heavy and pricey Stromtank. The PS Audio Power Plants are theoretically perfect also, but some reviews have described the sound as smooth and warm. How do we know that these AC generators or inverters aren't creating some distortion of their own? Where are the measurements? What specific sound differences have you found using the Yeti? Also, the Goal Zero site doesn't seem to have the Yeti 3000 which would be more useful than the 400. |
That reviewer also reviewed the PS Audio P20 ($10,000) and found the $20,000 Stromberg slightly better.....but now equaled by the $450.00 Goal Zero. That reviewer now uses a Yeti 1200 for his X250.8 amp that he has in the closet to get rid of its fan noise (my friend is in communication with the reviewer). The all in ones are made to be used out doors or in your garage. The lack of heatsinking makes the fan come on with very little current being drawn. If you use high powered separate inverters they are essentially a giant heat sink and the fans generally don't come on till your drawing half power (not many people need 1500 constant watts in their system). You can also cool the separate inverters by running a silent fan across the inverter chassis powered from your noisy grid. Every person that I know that has an inverter (Goal Zero or separate inverter battery combo)......pretty much says the same thing. Way cleaner sound......blacker backround, more subtle detail, better depth and height, decreased grain.......just plain purer sound. I use a modded Yeti 400 (naked so the fan will not come on) on my front end and will be getting a separate inverter for my power amp. I was talking to one old customer of mine and telling him about inverters and he said he had bought an 800 watter 3 years ago but had not tried it. 4 days later he calls me and is raving like a maniac. Says his system has never sounded this good plus the colors on his led tv are now out of this world. All inverters will sound slightly different. They synthesize the waveform and the output is filtered through a coil and cap. Back in the 90s I modded Exeltech low distortion sine wave inverters by changing the cap on the output to Wondercaps. My friend Alan uses the Yeti 3000 for his whole system but has a 3000 watt Topaz balanced transformer after it. The reason he is doing that is that the Topaz was already being used and had super expensive Furutech connectors and Triode labs wire on it (I soldered all the connections for him.....he lifted it.....80lbs?). He is not sure if the transformer does much now as he does not want to remove it. He used to use a Synergistic power cell with the transformer but the Yeti killed it. He bought the Yeti 3000 instead of a separate inverter/battery bank because he wants to use the Yeti as power back up for his entire house when PG&E decides to turn the electricity off for several days because of high winds (they did not like the law suits after all those fires a couple of years ago). i have not seen the waveform measured on an inverter for broadband noise. This is why I suggest using a "cleaner" afterwords. However, used alone....they make your system sound mucho cleaner. If you look at the review of the Puritan I linked above you can see OCD guy checked the noise coming out of the Puritan versus coming out of a normal line and also a dedicated line. The normal line was pretty noisy, his dedicated line was less so and the output of the Puritan would not read anything on the meter. If you search for Puritan on Youtube you will see a couple of videos of the Puritan guy at shows where he has a display showing the noise coming out of the wall and then he plugs the socket into the Puritan.....and it is just slightly more noise than the residual of the measurement machine (mirroring what OCD shows). The reviews on the Puritan are all raves......and I don't remember any of them talking about soft gooey sound (your fav....he he) |
The only real "problem" with inverters is that they are not simple plug and play and they don't have great WAF (however, you can hide all this very easily). You have to figure out how much battery you need.....how long the battery bank will last and have a big charger that you take on and off (could be with a switch). You see, you do not want to be charging the batteries while listening.....degrades the sound. If you have a class D based system then the power requirements are very low. Then a single 100 ah battery can last for hours. But if you have 1000 watts being drawn all the time you need several 100 ah batteries and still you cannot leave the stereo on for hours and hours. If you just want to leave the stereo on and not listen then you can put the charger on (but to recharge while it is drawing 1000 watt......you need a humungous charger...charging at over 1000 watt.....maybe 2000 watts). If you search, you can find some 4K+ inverter charger combos.....that would work for this situation and you can set the threshold when the charger kicks in. Here is one such item: https://theinverterstore.com/product/4000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-12-vdc-to-120-vac/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9IX4BRCcARIsAOD2OB0EK1qzISI32zRe0aM4evZg0CW-n1WFCG4hPkZEbCWSQK1M3FX4f-QaAgz3EALw_wcB This is all dirt cheap compared to things like (not as good sounding) regenerators......and this gets you completely off the grid. Does not matter what appliances are on, what your neighbors are doing....whatever....same sound all the time...day or night. |
Congrats WC, and thanks as others have said. Very interesting shootout. I thought the amps sounded completely different. To my ears and with a song I’ve heard thousands of times, the timbre of the Gryphon sounded perfect, but the timbre of the Dag sounded all messed up. Not sure how to describe, but maybe “thin” is best term I can come up with. Like ordering a big juicy half pound burger at your favorite burger joint and what shows up at the table is a little quarter pounder. Haha. Hey, that ain’t what I was expecting!! In any event, the Dag just sounded kinda unnatural on that tune. Maybe it’s my unideal playback setup, but that’s what I hear. eww, I saw the Klipsch guess on YT and your response. I predict you’ll hate them but I hope I’m wrong |
Surprise shock--I hear the Dag sounding a little clearer and less congested than the Gryphon. But the Dag has the advantage of the stand whereas the Gryphon is not able to be used with the stand. I assume the AQ Hurricane HC power cord was used for both amps. Earlier I said that the stand turns the rolled off Dag into a clear/neutral Sim, for example. If you found that the Dag without the stand is in the sweet, rolled off camp and the Gryphon is in the detail camp, now it appears that the stand has reversed these findings. Please do an A/B of the Dag with and without the stand. Same for Sim (please get it again) with and without the stand, and then the ultimate A/B of Sim and Dag both with the stand. If you confirm with other music that the standless Gryphon loses some clarity vs the Dag with stand and AQ power cord, then the Gryphon is way overpriced if a $5000 stand can give an advantage to Dag and maybe other cheaper amps like Sim. My guesses for your upcoming speakers are Klipsch, Maggie 3.7 or similar. |
WC,Agree about the DAG and the Hurricane PC’s. Still, I thought the DAG sounded better and I agree with viber6 on this one. One thing I noticed when listening on headphones, it almost sounds like the microphone is clipping or something - like the music is too loud and is overdriving the microphone, or maybe the microphone is having trouble catching some of the frequencies. Or, maybe it’s just my headphones :-) Dave |
Bass guitar through the Dag has no stones. Sounds neutered. Gryphon sounds powerful and full. On this song anyway. On other stuff I’ve thought the Dag sounded fine. I don’t think there’s ever been something played where I didn’t love the Gryphon or the Luxman 900’s when you had it. For the record, my favorite shootout song that WC has played is the Ella Vos song. That had everything. |
techno_dude, I don't understand your comment. WC found both the Luxman and Dag in the same camp of sweetness, but the Sim and Gryphon in the other camp of detail/neutrality. Ignoring the cost factor, if you like Luxman then you would like Dag and prefer either to the Sim or Gryphon. What is surprising to me is that the stand makes such a big difference that I hear the Dag + stand to have more detail and neutrality than the Gryphon, the top amp WC chose for these qualities, although he admitted that the Gryphon does have a touch of sweetness and warmth. |
Not true at all Mr. V. You are way over simplifying and losing forest for the trees. Sound quality overall. Not some subcategory of sound quality (like clarity or any other) to rule all. I’d pick Luxman and Gryphon as top two with Gryphon probably first of all those WC has demo’d on videos (subject to playback limitations caveats we’ve discussed a thousand times). They’re in opposite buckets according to WC but who tf cares - they sound the best! Forget the subcategories! |
WC, Previously you found the AQ Dragon to have more detail/clarity than the Hurricane, which was sweeter/warmer. Since I heard more clarity with the Dag + Hurricane + stand vs Gryphon + Dragon without stand, I would expect Dag + Dragon + stand to have an even greater improvement in clarity over the Gryphon + Dragon. I don't see any incompatibility of Hurricane + Dag, since I liked it! Listening to other music is needed. Maybe I was confused by the highly processed recording in the last video. Go back to Keith Don't Go, even if you might be tired of it. Do the other A/B's I suggested. |
Sorry kren, but clarity is not a subcategory but influences everything. Clarity improves QUALITY and lowers distortion in all ranges--bass, midrange, HF. You seem to like QUANTITY of bass, which is the same as fullness. Some electronics emphasize quantity of bass to the detriment of tightness and purity of bass, and the midrange, HF. But amps with greater clarity are even-handed across the freq range, with no detriments anywhere. Clarity with tight bass is enhanced by clarity of bass instrument overtones in midrange and HF. And this remarkable stand seems to offer a tightness and clarity that improves the entire freq range, although further listening would probably show that bass fullness is reduced. |
Clarity is worthless if the amp cannot produce the entire sound spectrum of the song, as the Dag was unable to do on Sultans of Swing for whatever reason. You are of course free to prefer that neutered sound, but most won’t. The comments here, including WC’s, and on YT bear that out. At least on this song which is all we are talking about. As I said, I liked Dag well enough on some other songs - I don’t think it’s a bad amp. Just not as good as others he’s had |
kren, You are going to extremes by saying "Clarity is worthless if the amp cannot produce the entire sound spectrum of the song." In reality, even a lousy amp can transmit the 20-20kHz spectrum with reasonably low measured distortion at all freq. That’s the starting point, and from there we can talk about revealing nuances of the music. It doesn’t matter what type of music we like, clarity is the most important and universal attribute that reveals any of it. Other audiophile criteria like depth, width, separation and soundstage focus will be best revealed if there is clarity. Lesser clarity will compromise all these other attributes, or subcategories, to use your description. If you have 30 seconds in an elevator with someone who has heard something of interest, you don’t have time to hear a 3000 word review--just ask 4 words--"how is the clarity?" You will get what you need to know without wishy washy BS. |
Well we can agree to disagree. You think the Dag sounded better on yesterday’s Sultans of Swing song. I and most others (see comments on YT) including WC think the Gryphon was much better. WC even speculates in today video that Dag inferior sound quality in the presentation you like so much may be due to a power cord mismatch in compatibility. Even if the Dag has better clarity, which is arguable but you seem to think so, the Gryphon was still better, which summarily disproves your contention that clarity trumps all. I won’t try to change your mind; just reciprocate and offer the same courtesy. |
After reading the comments on my youtube, i can say that about 65-70% of the votes are leaning towards Odin 1 speaker cable. The 30-35% that prefers the Wireworld could be due to the "warmer " presentation that could leave to longer listening sessions for some. One thing i wanted to call out, sometimes during my videos i know i might sound redundant, BUT you all need to keep into perspective that NOT EVERYONE who follows me is at the same level. I want to hit the ground running, but that is not fair for those who are behind. For instance, here are some questions i get: -What components are playing?? (i repeat myself on each video) -I prefer cable 1, oh no i went back to listening and now i prefer cable 2 -How do you use your subs with the wilson sasha? ( i never said i use subs) There are all sorts of subscribers that join and are also trying to learn so this is no different that when you are in a classroom and the teacher needs to give some students a chance to finish their classroom exercise even though the rest of the classroom is done. Anyhow, tonight i hope to unveil my new speaker (no music) and towards the end of the week is part 2 of " the best amplifiers 20k and under" that i have ever owned |
WC, yes, you spend big bucks....yes, you connect it all....yes, you give, and take opinions ( very much appreciated with your journey, and the fun you are having ).......but not everybody ( me ) are students of yours, or feel " behind " you. Please do not take this the wrong way.....I am still a follower. Enjoy ! and stay safe.....always, MrD. |
kren, Just talk logic. You said, "Even if the Dag has better clarity, which is arguable but you seem to think so, the Gryphon was still better, which summarily disproves your contention that clarity trumps all." No, it doesn't. What it logically proves is that you think the Gryphon is better, having less clarity. But you preferred Nordost over Wireworld in the next video. Nordost is noted for its superior clarity, and WW for its relative warmth. This shows that you do value clarity. Perhaps that congested/processed recording led me to draw the wrong conclusion that the Dag + stand had superior clarity to the Gryphon without the stand. If another recording shows that the Gryphon has superior clarity to the Dag, I will prefer the Gryphon. I have no allegiance to brand names, but prefer anything with superior clarity. I am still shocked about how a stand could make a lower clarity amp have more clarity than a higher clarity amp without the stand. More trials are needed with horizontal amps with and without the stand. |
