Here is the one issue,
The sashas need room behind them. If I do the typical "living room set up " with the Sasha’s then the SOUNDSTAGE collapses. Wilson needs space behind them to sound best.
Also, I did the exact methodology cardas has outlined on their site and this puts my Wilson’s at about 6 feet away from the wall behind them..yes even the wife asked why are the speakers so far out etc. I’ve played with all sorts of positions with these speakers and the focals and I always end up hearing far more depth and "surround sound " feeling when they are as far away as possible from any wall. To your earlier point, I definitely have the room to do anything I want and this is exactly a perfect example of it. No need to make the room look like a living room with the speakers 2 feet away from the wall behind them etc. Also, the wall behind me helps a speaker like this give it a little more muscle. I don’t want to use subwoofers for music so that isn’t an option because it complicates things unless I was using a magnepan then sure I would use subs.
Maybe one day I will do panels and bring subs.
Anytime I tried the Sasha or focal 2-3 feet away from the rear wall and me moving up closer where I am about 8 feet away from the wall behind me I hear no Bass, and a collapsed sound.. maybe my room needs a big speaker with bigger drivers for more bass. Let's not forget I had the sasha 2s before in the living room and I heard no Bass... But I was seated about 13 feet away from the wall behind me... |
I sit close to the rear wall in my listening room but I use 4 Stillpoints Apertures on that wall. They do a great job of removing a lot of the room from the music without sounding too dead. I have read a lot of erik_squires posts also. Erik highly recommends GIK room treatments and EQ for problem (too much) bass. Sitting close to a rear wall doesn't always equate to bad sound....if the wall is properly treated.
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All my walls are treated including the ceiling. My room has zero resonance or echoes or the feeling of bass bouncing around the room. |
Listen, I have been on your side, since the beginning, and I am a subscriber to your youtube channel. What I am saying to you, has nothing to do, really, with the equipment, but, with room acoustics. You can experiment, with a desk chair, which is a way to change " your " location in the room, relative to the speakers. You can leave them positioned the same distance from the rear wall behind them, but maybe, you will need to move them a bit closer together, and change the toe in. It is all experimental. You will be listening " closer ", but I promise you, they will still disappear. What you will notice, with a nearer field listening situation, is a sharpness, a quickness, a tightness, a cleanliness, that you think you are hearing, now, but, you are not. That rear wall, being close to your ears, is coloring the sound, as you admit. Isn’t that the reason, people buy the gear, to get the neutrality that they want, the accuracy they want ( yes, color, as well ). Get the room, out of the equation. Simply try experimenting. If you look at many of the top sound rooms of listeners here, on their photo pages, most have their seat away from the back wall. Every recording studio I have ever been in ( admittedly, it has been a while ), the engineer is sitting close up ( near field ) to the monitors, and far away from any and all room boundaries. Buying expensive, better gear, should be more of a reason, to take this approach. What do you have to lose, except some time, muscle ( which I know you have ), and truly finding out, how stellar, your system is. You can always go back to the way it is. Why not, ask others here, for their opinions, although, unless they have experienced what I am suggesting to you, it will mean little. I do not have a degree or a doctorate, in room acoustics ( never claimed that I did ), but I do, have many years, of actual experience. I wish you well, always. This, will be an education, for your ears....I promise. |
i understand. As i said on my previous post, i have done the work in my room and determined that where i am seated provides me with the best balance i can achieve given the speakers i own. I am also doing pretty much near field listening since i am about 8 feet away from my speakers in a perfect equilateral triangle. I also think that going into a studio would NOT automatically mean the sound will be to your liking. Accuracy isn’t always the "preferred" way to go and i sincerely doubt ANYONE here has "accuracy" within their corresponding rooms. Trade offs are indeed part of the hobby and it is up to each person to decide what they can or can not compromise with.
For me, i can’t have just clarity and detail and then each time the bass is supposed to hit all i hear are crickets so i compromised and got closer to my rear wall and it just so happened that i gained not just more bass but also much more depth and sound that seems to come from behind the speaker cabinets.
i remember trying for hours and hours and hours to position the focal and then the wilsons and the more far away i got from the rear wall in my room, the thinner and less impactful the sound was. I must have done this probably 10 different times and i always ended up getting closer to the rear wall. |
I started my rant, based on the comment WC made " I sit near the rear wall, which enhances the ooomph factor ", or something like that. I said my piece....enjoy on ! |
That is an accurate representation of what is happening in my room with the DAW and the Focal Scala EVO when i had them. I never tried it with the Alexia but maybe this would be different with the Alexia and i could successfully practice your recommendation. |
I think rear ported speakers are designed to have a boundary behind them. I know that they are not supposed to be too close though. Just food for thought. Below is from the KEF website - Ported (also known as bass reflex) speakers are designed to enhance the bass response of a loudspeaker through a series of calculations involving cabinet volume, cabinet filling and woofer response, among others.
Typically, bass reflex speakers offer enhanced bass response over closed box designs. The downside to ports is that at lower frequencies ‘smearing’ takes place due to the lessened transient response of the design. This smearing is reduced or eliminated through the ‘tuning’ of the port, cabinet size and volume of the loudspeaker, hence the common name ‘tuned-port.’ Another drawback can be the phenomenon referred to as ‘chuffing’ where air turbulence in the port can actually be heard. A well-designed port addresses both issues. Where the port is placed is the result of a lot of different considerations, not the least of which are visual aesthetics and optimal use of the real estate available on the front baffle. Bass energy moves slowly and takes a large amount of physical space to unfold, so the few inches from the front to the back is negligible: For all intents and purposes there is no difference between a rear- and front-ported speaker. They both do the same thing – use the energy created by the woofer when it moves backward (or ‘in’) to make the bass response of a loudspeaker more efficient. To take that one step further, all speakers (rear-, front-ported or closed box) will be affected by their relationship with the nearest boundaries. Bass energy radiates in all directions from a loudspeaker and so it is (to varying degrees) always affected by the surfaces around the cabinet.
Farther Is Not Always Better Farther is usually better, but don’t ignore the improvements that can be made by moving your speakers closer to the wall. It seems unintuitive but depending on the frequencies you’re having trouble with you may actually clean up some reflections by moving your speakers in the opposite direction of what you think is best. Exactly what the affected frequencies are depend on all the things we’ve been talking about. You’ll never narrow it down to a single octave or band as that will change constantly, but you will be able to dial in a good compromise..
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Vivaldi vs Rossini....hmmm I am listening to the Rossini right now and it is indeed a great topic. i will need to talk about this in the near future.
how much better is the Vivaldi? 10%? 30%? 60%? ?? |
Dacs at this level are not very far appart. |
I am trying to decide on a Dac myself. Not wanting to spend Vivaldi kind of money unless I find a deal on a used one. But I know I’d prefer one I can use with an app on my iPad for tidal, so would like mqa. As with anyone I’d like to spend less, especially if there is one that outperforms for its price, but willing to spend more if the difference is worthwhile. I’ve found very few that do MQA and I’m still a bit muddy on understanding which ones have the ability to play using an iPad app. Most seem to require using a roon server, which I have zero desire for at this point. Tried roon on my computer and it was just more complicated than my level of patience allowed for. I admit my level of patience is low if it dosnt work right off the bat |
darned if that don't sound like a millennial. LOL |
Rossini is special... WILL NOT DENY IT... Impressions to come ... |
WC,
A simple thing you can do is to sit closer to the speakers. It is true that having the speakers as far from all walls as possible will decrease the bass. However, room colorations are lessened in this way, which helps detail and spatiality. To restore some bass, sitting closer helps. The speakers LOOK bigger (that's obvious), and the overall sound is bigger--everything--bass, midrange, HF. Of course, if you sit too close, the drivers may not gel, and the sound loses focus and coherence. |
have had rossini and clock and now Bartok. I have never felt that I’ve missed anything. IMHO
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Greyhound, I’m definitely a boomer. If only I could turn back the hands of time to be a millennial |
Wow 4425, that is impressive praise for the Bartok! Glad to hear it as down the road I may aspire to that dac.
Other than Rossini (Which I know is different price point), are there any other dacs in the Bartok’s range you have compared it to (e.g., LUMIN X1, Dave, or others)? |
To be sincere and honest, i don't think you can go wrong with anything that DCS makes... i just can't see WHERE you or anyone would be disappointed. My .02 cts. |
I respect your need to move items in order to have money for the next items. This is all exciting, but it doesn't permit true comparisons which take time. For example, I anticipate the DCS Rossini will be excellent, but you won't really be able to appreciate the differences with the Vivaldi unless you go back and forth a few times between them simultaneously. Nobody's memory is that good. Even if your memory were perfect, the AC power quality can vary a lot more than differences between excellent components. And now you are throwing many different cables into the ring, so it is tough to do A/B's in a disciplined manner.
Speaking about AC conditioning, I looked up comments on AQ Niagara and Hurricane HC power cords. A poster named audiofool1 from 11/9/18 wasn't impressed with AQ, but he thought the Ansuz stuff was best for transparency. So I am glad you got started with an Ansuz cable, and hope you can try the Ansuz Mainz D8 or other series power distributors, comparing with the AQ Niagara and Hurricane or Dragon power cords.
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In my experience, dacs are the most difficult audiophile pieces to compare.
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@techno_dude, My friend John Gatski of EverythingAudioReview agrees and finds headphones are best for DAC comparisons because of the similarities between DACs. |
speedbump
I have one daughter who is a millennial. Her and most of her millennial friends wish they had an "Easy Button" for every thing. If they have to expend any time or energy on it to get better results ..... Nope . it is not for them then !
I am in the same camp as you and definitely, the older i get the more I look for the "Easy Button",.. for sure.
Sorry to sidetrack |
kren0006...i haven’t had the ability to compare dacs in my system. I want my front end to be excellent and DCS fits the bill for me. I assume that side by side the Rossini and Bartok would differ somewhat but I haven’t found that to be obvious in my case but I never had them side by side. My only criticism of DCS is their pedestrian cosmetics. The beauty is on the inside.
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4425,
Did you try the Chord DAVE, which is reputed to have the best clarity at a semi-reasonable price? |
FYI V Darko has video that compared Chord Dave and Bartok and found Bartok better. Used three sets of headphones to do the comparison.
I’ve seen other forum posts where a user preferred Dave to Bartok, as could be expected with personal preferences. I think a big advantage for Bartok is the it includes streamer where Dave does not
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Viper6. I’ve not heard the Dave.
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Underwood HiFi has a few GAS mono amps at a great price might be the cats ass
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Been reading about the Cherry line of amps, seems to be some pretty good comments on those. Specifically the Megachino mkii sounds like you can add a second set of rails for more capacitors also. One of the things that was noticed was even at lower volumes, not that I play at lower volumes often, that you get great dynamic range still. I know with many products it’s lower, but also more muted, you lose some of the dynamics, and it’s softer. |
hi there,
i have been out of the loop because i am busy with family stuff. I hope to have the time to do a video tomorrow of the different xlr cables i have so you guys can decide what you like best.
Audience front row vs valhalla 2 vs ansuz c2 ! |
Ansuz designers used to work at Nordost. Both Nordost and Ansuz have enormous range of prices, with Ansuz being the worst at their flagship level.
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I’m watching all the videos again in order bc I think I missed some.
What I find really funny (in a good, humorous fun way) is several times WC will say something like, “As you guys know, I’ve had hundreds of amps, back when I started I had ....” and then he’ll pause trying to remember all the budget amps he went thru, usually he’ll probably only remember three or four, and sometimes the list varies a bit, but he ALWAYS, and I mean always mentions the same two. (along with sometimes a couple others).
Trivia: what two amp companies are almost always the first to come to his mind when he thinks back and starts to list the stuff from the early days?
It’s almost like you could make a drinking game out of it. Here it comes, WC gonna list the crappy stuff he started with, you know what’s coming next....always those poor two get singled out. Who has been paying attention?
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Interesting ! You are probably right. I can’t help it but to just remember those amps that come off the top of my head. :)
On another note, has the 900u amp killer arrived ??? Am I listening to the amp that finally puts an end to the 900u long winning streak ?? Possibly... My next video will not show it but I am listening to one of the BIGGEST surprises as far as amps are concerned. A private audition is happening as we speak in my room and oh boy... This thing will break a ton of hearts... All good things come to an end and this amp has shown up right at the perfect time... Yes, it is under $20k MSRP and I think it came to knock the luxman 900u out but will it ? All I can say is OMG it is INCREDIBLE... Soulution-like grip, huge sound, muscular like gryphon and powerful. It is still breaking in so I won’t have a formed opinion until first week in July. For now, you all need to know that the VERY FIRST true challenger of the 900u throne has arrived. :)
Don't message me so I can say what It is. I need to keep it under wraps until I can present it. If you are planning to spend less than 20k, you better keep that money in your wallet until next month :).
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"211 pages of opin on the screen...211 pages of screen....
Take one down, pass it 'round....
212 pages of opin on the screen...."
kren0006, it IS like a drinking game....which is why I've stopped by to see "...how long can this go on?" as in the song....;)
Apparently, a 'life of its' own'....*G*
Message me when it hits 500 pages...."That boy ain't nuthin' but trouble.." ;) |
@asvjerry
I believe everyone is hearing crickets after the Eminem lyrics you posted above... |
For now, you all need to know that the VERY FIRST true challenger of the 900u throne has arrived. :)
Would that be the top Accuphase Amps? There has always been a split opinion as to who prefers the Luxman and who prefers the Accuphase. Accuphase give a hint to the sound in their name Accurate Phase.. |
So the mystery amp was not D’Agostino’s then...cute stuff. I was falling in love with the Luxman 900 and going to make you an offer on yours. Now we have to wait? 😳 |
@whitecamaross , Oh, damn....I'm so sorry....I couldn't hear the crickets for the cicadas.....
Please do carry on.....
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I don’t think it would be an Accuphase. Their amps do not have an MSRP of $20,000. |
No it's not Accuphase. I plan to keep listening to it for the next 3 weeks and then have a better understanding of what this amp can or can't do.
It still needs more time in the "oven" before I can form an opinion. I believe this amp WILL make a splash. For now, I am thinking about having 3 reference amps in my room at all times in order to see how they all behave with different speakers and cables. |
WC Video Trivia Background: So best I can tell from the videos WC’s very first amplifier seems to have been an Onkyo receiver. He mentions that once in awhile.
But far more often in the videos, when he reverts back to remembering the long list of initial amps (just read his initial post to see about 50 of them), he always mentions two brands that pop to the top of his head, and then he kind of trails off and sometimes gets one or two others, but almost always the first two.
One is pretty universally considered an entry level hi-end brand (not like Sony or Pioneer or stuff you’d find at Best Buy, but for hi-end, towards the bottom of that totem pole. The other is not as much, yet WC always lumps it in with the aforementioned lower end brand. Which ones are they?
Trivia answer to come in a few hours ......
Trivia Answer: _____
Regarding the new amps, well you already showed the Merrill Audio awhile ago and we haven’t heard those yet, but I doubt they’d beat Luxman. Hmmm, I will guess (and this is probably way out in left field as you’ve never mentioned it to my knowledge): Coda???? Ah, on second thought, that’s probably not one you’d buy as not mainstream enough. Hmm, new guess: T+A - seems like a brand you could be interested in and now maybe getting mainstream enough that you'd do it |
WC, have you every tried Richard Gray Power Company conditioners? |
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Speaking of conditioners...I still think you should try Nordost's Qbase8. Since you now finally have an all Nordost loom it would be worth a try. I believe the retail is $1800 and I'm sure you could do better than that. It really made a big difference in my all Nordost system. I would love to get your impression of it vs the AQ Niagara.
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Trivia Answer: Well, first off, NAD. NAD always gets mentioned. Cool, solid starter audio company.
Then the next one. I can just hear the execs at this company, when they hear WC start into this mode: "Don’t do it! Don’t you do it! Don’t group us with NAD again! Dammit, he did it...again! No respect! What about Outlaw Audio? What about Rotel? What about Parasound? What about PS Audio? Why ya gotta always lump us in? We’re ___, we’re legit!"
And the other company is:...... Bryston! NAD and Bryston! These are the two WC always seems to default to when he lists amps he started with.
Again, I just think it’s funny in a drinking game sorta way. Makes me smile every time. Didn’t really recognize it until I watched all 45 videos again over 3 days and you begin to notice patterns..... In all seriousness, vids keep improving all the time. Damn fine informational service he is providing all of us. |
Thanks kren.
For tonight's video, I'm not sure I want to use the ansuz xlr yet because I have not even used it...it's new without any break-in. |
Me thinks it’s the Simaudio 860A V2. |
" A private audition " might mean it is not an amp he has purchased ( on loan )...so yeah, I am thinking it is the new Coda 16, which is getting some say so, as how wonderful it is, and it is priced similarly to the Lux, with or without the meters. " Soulution like grip " ? WC, have you had one to listen to, to make that comment, as you never repeat quotes, or adjectives, of others ? |
WC--Is this your first mention of Soulution "Soulution-like grip"? I've been hoping that you would try one. |
