My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Not at all. Cal Dreaming is a poorly recorded song that led me to a different preference than the other song which I don't know. But I have an open mind to report what I hear, and change my mind when the evidence is clear. On the other song, the 2500 had clear superiority in many aspects, and overall I preferred it.
Switching gears to live unamped music heard at different distances, mid hall sound is definitely more spacious than 1st row or stage sound. Close up sound has more HF content than distant sound, and can sound congested and harsh. Now the 2500 has set a standard for spatiality and naturalness, so the question is how will other units such as mentioned by ricevs compare? I still perceive that the 1000 has more HF content, but now believe that a fair amount of that HF content is distortion, compared to the 2500. Will another battery/inverter unit reveal the comparable spaciousness of the 2500 plus more HF undistorted content which are the characteristics of live natural music heard close? How will the flagship S5000 do against the 2500? I expect Jay to find out for himself, and then demo it for us.
This Stromtank has been a great learning experience, which I think is just the start of great things to come, as other battery/inverters are properly compared in different systems and with different recordings. Better recordings will tell the truth, but lousy processed recordings are not worth the investment in the best power products.
Overall, qobuz seems to have better sound but not on every song. Some albums are identical.
Can you name a few tracks or albums that you think sound "better" on one service or the other? That could give us some insight into your preferences because, as we all know, something that sounds different isn’t always better.
Not odd at all, Carey. That’s exactly what I heard as well. Based on history of sonic assessments demonstrated in this thread and audio knowledge, the results for the three people who’ve commented (you, me and Viber) are exactly what I’d expect.
what will come next is all too predictable. WC will confirm that 2500 has much better clarity and is superior in every way. Viber will make excuses and contend the opposite and that WC did something wrong in his assessment (already started with the Dire straits complaint). Then for months he’ll drone on about how 1000 had better clarity. Seen it too many times……
Viber I didn’t find the 2500 to be warmer. In fact I found the opposite to be true. The s1000 was less transparent and warmer that the 2500. Also the 2500 seemed to have greater clarity, detail, dynamics maybe even more information if that’s possible, but musical at the same time. Lower noise floor. Our different experience seems odd. Maybe a YouTube glitch at the time IDK.
Jay, thanks for the tip about the other song on both videos. Prior video with S1000, song opens at 0:00. Later video with S2500, opens at 3:00. This is a much more revealing recording than California Dreaming.
I hear the attractive increased spatiality with the S2500. The S1000 is more upfront with less depth and spatiality. There is a little congestion with the S1000, suggesting that there is more distortion in the S1000. For this song, overall I prefer the S2500. Perhaps on another recording, I might prefer the more upfront S1000. For me, the ideal would be more upfront presentation with still excellent spatiality
Sure, a company wants to make their more expensive product sound "better" than their cheaper product. But what does "better" mean? It could mean warmer, richer sounding. Maybe the wealthy customer wants to settle down after the stresses of their financial/business world, and relax in the luxuriant, smooth sound. Some time ago, Jay found the more expensive ARC ref 10 had a richer, smoother sound than the cheaper ref 6 or 6SE. That was the marketing approach of ARC. Stromtank could have the same goals to appeal to their more wealthy customers.
In the opera world, the wealthy prefer the Grand Tier location, which is directly over the back of the orchestra, over 100 feet from the stage. The line of sight there is excellent, but the sound is much less detailed than from the very front of the hall close to the stage.
After trying different volume settings, I still hear that the S1000 is more detailed, while the S2500 offers relatively luxuriant, warm, smooth sound, at least on the Cal song. The Dire Straits song would offer a better test.
Yep, that’s what I did. It was easy for me. easier than the power cord last couple videos. I posted my conclusions as an edit in the post before this. Only had time for one listen - gotta go pick up my daughter from practice
just use the last 2 videos i published. There are 2 songs that both have in common and all you have to do is see which one you prefer. Today's video shows the s2500 and yesterday's (the qobuz video) shows the s1000.
Again I heard greater clarity/neutrality on the S1000 for California Dreaming. The opening guitar has a bit more focus, and the upfront lead singer has more breathy HF content with greater delicate nuance. The S2500 is warmer and rounder on the voice especially. I am suspicious of other high priced German products like MBL which are on the euphonic side, according to many reviews.
Which videos are we supposed to be comparing? The latest one with the qobuz one?
Edit: This is easy - Stromtank 2500 destroys Stromtank 1000, which sounds muddled in comparison. 2500 has much blacker backgrounds and better mid and treble clarity, not to mention better bass tautness. It instantly just sounds much cleaner. I mean - not a shocker - what else would you expect? Company would have to be pretty dim to make a much cheaper product in its lineup sound better
Ricevs you make a great case and I’d definitely consider trying it at some point. The money back guarantee makes even more attractive. However, Hard to say if it would sound better than a Stromtank since I haven’t heard the inverter system you speak of. Hard to image that it would but nothing surprises me in this stuff anymore. Would have to have them side by side or at least in the same system to make that judgment. Someone may do it but I only know of one that could and I doubt he’d mess with it. I’m sure it must be pretty good as I can sense your passion for it. I doubt I’d cry tears of sadness if I owned the Stromtank tho lol!
Viber I agree the Dire Straits would be a better recording to judge by. However just based on what I heard I think the 2500 will have an advantage when it comes to clarity as it should.
Did you listen to California Dreaming on both videos back and forth? I indicated the timing on each video for easy reference. At first I thought the recorded level was louder on the later video, but later it seemed the volume levels were matched approximately. YT quirks? If the volumes seem different on your setup, match the volumes as best as you can, then listen without bias.
Dire Straits is a much more revealing and challenging recording, so I hope Jay presents this song with both S1000 and S2500, and then later when he gets the S5000.
Guys, get creative......you can make a cool box for an inverter system or have someone else make you one.....you could even get a large rack mount chassis and just bolt a quarter inch thick aluminum plate underneath so it could withstand the 130 lbs of batteries and inverter and charger.....pretty darn simple. You would have the power cord on the back for the inverter along with a single Furutech outlet to feed your Puritan (you could even dangle the Furutech outlet...so you don’t have to do much metal work.....or even mount 4 dual Furutech outlets on the back...or on a separate power strip. Then you have a switch on the unit that disconnects the charger from the batteries......all of this is basic stuff most of you can do.....or get someone to do it for you......I might make the above myself and offer it as a product......what? I can make some money too???!!!! It’s probably too heavy for me to do.....but it’s easy....go for it. The 5000 watt Giandel Inverter system plus chassis and labor......maybe $3500.......the 2500 watt Stromtank......$27,000. I bet the Giandel sounds way better........You could buy the Stromtank (hopefully with money back guarantee).....and buy the inverter system and A/B......then send the one that does not sound as good send back for a refund....What, you do not want to know if a $2750 (the cost without a chassis like shown on my website) 5000 watt inverter system sounds as good or better than a $27k product? You want to know....don’t you?!!
Reminder.....you can buy (with money back guarantee) a 2200 watt Giandel inverter for a lttle over $300!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and try it with one of your car batteries......What? you do not have $300 on a credit card?
Do you want to love yourself or make yourself cry? (tears of sadness).....I cry tears of joy everyday as I am moved by the beauty of life.
Many of us not only want our equipment to perform well but we also want it to look good as well. The Stromtank fills the bill on both. Does it cost more, well yes of course it does. You don’t get a classy look for free and I suspect the performance is unquestionable as well. Remember this is a cost no object system. If I had my system all together like I want it ( like Jay ) then a Stromtank would be a nice addition to top it off. Performs well AND looks great. Good move Jay. Just about the time we think you’re at the top you fine a way to push it just a little bit more. Great sound.
You can buy a 240 volt 4000 watt (8000 watt peak) Giandel inverter (around $627 plus shipping from UK....I have asked Giandel if they will make a 240V unit for US....but I doubt they will for safety reasons) that will power the 3060 fine. The 3060 only draws 300 watts when idle.....the 240 input on the 3060 is so you can get ALL the power from the beast as a normal 20 amp 120V connection will not do 6000 watt peaks......240V allows that. The inverter will probably have better bass and dynamics than running directly from 240V dedicated lines. That is certainly what the 5000 watt 120V Giandel does......kills super dedicated lines in bass, dynamics and every sonic quality.
BTW......the 3060 idles at 300 watts.....but when asked will do 900 watts of pure class A power into 8 ohms.....this is not its idle power
Well this is very interesting... I just received a few emails from people in the industry that just watched the video i posted and they said the system is sounding out of this world with spaciousness and surreal clarity.
Folks - it's time you all grab your headphones and give it a listen. I want your feedback. Is the s2500 the better unit for my system?
I will give my comments after you all comment HERE!
OK, same song, California Dreaming. On prior video with S1000, starts 2:43. On later video with S2500, starts 5:58. Unfortunately, on later video, it is recorded louder. Trying to match volumes, never an exact experiment, I heard more neutrality and focus with the S1000. S2500 seems rounder and warmer. This is only one song, so I would like to hear S1000 and S2500 with matched volumes on the better recorded Dire Straits song.
The generator is merely to provide basic survival comfort while awaiting the return of AC power. The ultimate sonic result will be from the upgraded AC, and a battery/inverter. I reject the claim made by power amp manufacturers that the best result is gotten from plugging the amp into the wall. In terms of unimpeded power delivery they may be correct. However, the audiophile seeks maximum power purity, which is likely best obtained by the battery/inverter, getting you off the polluted grid. Only the S5000 has the capability to handle the entire system with high powered amps. Then the question is whether the comparable capability from products mentioned by ricevs produces better purity than the much more costly S5000.
On the first video, the S1000 seems to be crisper, more raw/detailed with more transient shocks than on the 2nd video with the S2500. Different songs, so merely a speculation. It would be informative to hear any of the songs, in particular the hard-hitting Dire Straits using both the S1000 and S2500. I am guessing you are not using either of the S-tanks with the power amp.
I have given you 2 sounds on this video so you can compare to prior video... Looks like the comments on the video are quite positive. At $27,500, the s2500 does do things that the smaller s1000. You all can compare both songs on both videos and hear for yourselves.
Overall, qobuz seems to have better sound but not on every song. Some albums are identical. That said, Tidal kills qobuz in terms of its music library.
If Spotify got their act together and created a Hi res version of its platform, it would bury qobuz and tidal. Spotify has pretty much everything.
The final song of Dire Straits sounds great for raw guts and detail. Get the LP version that grey9hound mentioned. I don't think the euphonic Koetsu cartridge will deliver these sounds, but get the Lyra Atlas SL cartridge which offers the best prospects for challenging your SOTA digital system. The Koetsu money could buy the Generac, so just go with the Lyra cartridge. Lyra is out of stock due to the covid situation, so maybe you can borrow Oz's Koetsu as a first TT step.
My gf in NJ has a Generac unit for almost the entire house. The installation was roughly $10K, 2x/yearly maintenance. It turns on for 15 min on Sat mornings. Great peace of mind investment for you. You spend multiples of that on any single component. This should give you perspective.
It is a surprise and very unexpected that Jay is only now discovering hi-res streaming as through Qobuz because Jay has portrayed himself as a daring, fearless, aggressive explorer of new horizons but of course I praise, applaud, and congratulate Jay for breaking out of his technological "comfort zone" and because Jay has many followers, admirers, and imitators I also hope that they are inspired by Jay's bold launch in to the world of current digital technology and consider following him in to the world of what digital has to offer.
Just decided to get the entire ac system replaced. What if the system sounds better after a new ac system is installed in the house ? Hmm that’s when I’d be checking myself in a mental institution lol.
Alright folks i managed to record a quick video of my system playing QOBUZ for the first time.
Jay, Time to get a whole house generator. This will allow you to run everything including central and split AC units. Not sure if there is an audible difference listening to your system when running on generator power but at least you will have everything that you normally power with utility power. Generac, Kohler, Cummins are a few of the leading brands to consider. Check their specs as you would want AC power with a low harmonic distortion, under 5%. Cost ranges from $10-$15k. supplied and installed I estimate. I have a Generac portable which came in handy during the Sandy storm years ago. I am now considering an upgrade to a whole house unit. You could pick up a portable generator to get you through this outage. All but the biggest generators cannot run large AC units but at least you can have lights, refrigerator, Internet equipment, etc. running. Get a dual fuel generator to maximize your fuel options.
The AC in my home has been out since Thursday. I’ve not been able to create more content because it’s 88F in my house with full blown humidity. Luckily my audio room has a split unit so it’s cool and my family can sleep in it.
Man, the service contractor said the coil went bad and i got an ac leak and now they are saying there is a part shortage due to COVID which could delay things!
I purchased a portable Frigidaire AC unit which seems to be doing a little bit but only in the living room area. The rooms are like saunas right now.
I should rethink this audio thing and consider doing ac service. There’s an entire hustle and mafia in south Florida when it comes to ac. The way global warming is going, AC business might be better than buying Bitcoin way back when.
The issue is not whether the Stromtank or other battery/inverter makes inferior preamp A sound as good as superior preamp B. The principle of power purity and transparency means that all components will sound better with the particular batter/inverter. But the few reviews and Jay's experience show that the S-tanks have their individual sound. If you want smoothness and absence of HF unpleasantness, you choose the S-2500, but if you want neutrality you choose the S-1000. Unfortunately, this gets back to arbitrary tastes and colorations, just like any other component. What is THE most transparent and pure battery/inverter? No one yet knows--only comparative listening to several products will tell.
@jays_audio_labStop it White el Camino, 😛. Rhondi says Krell is just changing the operations model. Sent me a white paper on the new amp too… Not gone or going out of business.
Jay if you want total control of this stuff you’ll need your own web site. This is audiogon a group of audiophiles who will always feel free to voice their opinions with in the audiogon rules and guidelines. Regardless of what you want or who the OP is this thread is made up of many many people all with different opinions. This thread has more topics, discussions on more types of equipment and is more versatile than any other thread period. This is what makes this thread so cool and Jay you started it. That is something to be proud of. Thanks Jay for all you do and for keeping it alive. 👍👍
No, you do not need a dedicated line or fancy outlet......you are only using the house power to charge the batteries
@jays_audio_labsays the Stromtank batteries sound different depending on which power cord is used to charge them. While that seems unlikely, it means that - if true - these batteries are not as neutral as some suggest.
jays_audio_lab OP"Jay is a dealer for stromtank...not the distributor...the distributor is someone else "
That then is my error and mistake and I apologize English is not my first language and some times I get confused while translating in my head. The Stromtank seems to be an unusual product and design and it is interesting how some people here are trying to "reverse engineer" the product to develop an alternative that may be more specifically tailored to there needs as well as assembled at a more convenient price but it sure looks like a "messy"alternative to me that I would not like in my Music Reproduction Systems.
Jay is a dealer for stromtank...not the distributor...the distributor is someone else .
With regards to the DYI BATTERY thingy, i urge those who want to go back and forth non-stop about it to take it to PMs or start a fresh thread elsewhere.
thezaks"it would be fun for someone to try it out. Even better for all of us if WC tried it."
If by WC you refer to Jay then I think you need to consider, evaluate, and respect the position that Jay is now in because he has "crossed the threshold" and is now an officially designated, authorized, franchised importer/distributor of the Stromtank product at least according to Jay as I understand him and that means he has a responsibility to his vendor to represent the product fairly and not "undercut" it in any way which he would do if he promoted a less expensive "do it yourself" option or alternative and that is only fair for everyone involved in the product.
Also as I have mentioned it seems that Jay’s followers are very sensitive, caring individuals and are more comfortable with complete, integrated, self-standing solutions so they would prefer Stromtank to DIY just the same as they prefer You Tube to retrieving actual hi-res files online as has been discussed earlier in this thread.
Jay is also probably very busy trying to get dealers to sign up for this product because it is probably very limited and restricted how many he can sell here and we I’m sure are wishing him the best regarding that but may be others will try the DIY "approach" and share the results and outcome with us.
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