Ethernet. I used to say the power cord was the most unloved, but important cable. Now, I update that assessment to the Ethernet cable. Review work forthcoming.
I can't wait to invite my newer friend who is an engineer who was involved with the construction of Fermilab, the National Accelerator Lab, to hear this! Previously he was an overt mocker; no longer. He decided to try comparing cables and had his mind changed. That's not uncommon, as many of you former skeptics know. :)
I had my biggest doubts about the Ethernet cable. But, I was wrong - SO wrong! I'm so happy I made the decision years ago that I would try things rather than simply flip a coin mentally and decide without experience. It has made all the difference in quality of systems and my enjoyment of them. Reminder; I settled the matter of efficacy of cables years before becoming a reviewer and with my own money, so my enthusiasm for them does not spring from reviewing. Reviewing has allowed me to more fully explore their potential.
I find fascinating the cognitive dissonance that exists between the skeptical mind in regard to cables and the real world results which can be obtained with them. I'm still shaking my head at this result... profoundly unexpected results way beyond expectation. Anyone who would need an ABX for this should exit the hobby and take up gun shooting, because your hearing would be for crap.
Just to remind what this discussion is about and why "we" disagree with esoteric, expensive Ethernet cable being able to actually IMPROVE the sound quality of a streamed audio program over a basic spec cable...it is this.
When you have spent (for example) $40,000 on your speakers and another $50,000 on playback delivery and amplification equipment, you have already demonstrated that you are compulsive in this hobby. Perhaps you have no other interests or entertainment outlets. Like the auto-geek squeezing a few more horsepower out of a high performance engine, you seek any avenue (like expensive cables) to ”make it better." It is in this audio zone (where true performance cannot be measured) that expectation bias rules. Those that understand it, temper their follow on purchases with good judgement. Those that do not, bleed from their wallet and refuse to accept that there are product manufactures that understand you, know you are an easy mark and take advantage of your naivety.
No one listens to music with their cables 'unplugged'. Since you don't believe in 'cable makes a difference' there is not much to discuss or debate here.
Even If I shoot a video with A/B test and post it on YouTube, i highly doubt either you or anyone for that matter can discern 'SQ' between different cables.
Is this simple enough for you to understand?
BTW, how many comments did you receive on your YouTube video :-)
dynaquest4 Just to remind what this discussion is about and why "we" disagree with esoteric, expensive Ethernet cable being able to actually IMPROVE the sound quality of a streamed audio program over a basic spec cable...it is this.
When you have spent (for example) $40,000 on your speakers and another $50,000 on playback delivery and amplification equipment, you have already demonstrated that you are compulsive in this hobby. Perhaps you have no other interests or entertainment outlets. Like the auto-geek squeezing a few more horsepower out of a high performance engine, you seek any avenue (like expensive cables) to ”make it better." It is in this audio zone (where true performance cannot be measured) that expectation bias rules. Those that understand it, temper their follow on purchases with good judgement. Those that do not, bleed from their wallet and refuse to accept that there are product manufactures that understand you, know you are an easy mark and take advantage of your naivety.
>>>>>If you object to the high cost of some peoples' systems go on Dr. Phil. This debate has nothing to do with the cost of systems. If you had been following the thread you would have seen that many, if not most systems, on which folks actually heard differences for Ethernet cables were not expensive ones. So that’s only a Strawman argument, a logical fallacy. Expectation bias can be controlled through careful testing. So that argument can be thrown out as well. Looks like you struck out again. Better luck next time, Slugger!
No one listens to music with their cables 'unplugged'. Since you don't believe in 'cable makes a difference' there is not much to discuss or debate here.
Ethernet as a protocol and cable is the only cable in all of audiophiledom that I know of that you can unplug and you will still get playback.
That you don't get the significance of this and unable to answer that age old simple question: What happens to the SQ when the cable is removed and the audio keeps playing?
Even If I shoot a video with A/B test and post it on YouTube, i highly doubt either you or anyone for that matter can discern 'SQ' between different cables.
Is this simple enough for you to understand?
BTW, how many comments did you receive on your YouTube video :-)
What I posted was for proof of concept Post your own rebuttal video and see how many comments you get ;-)
"Ethernet as a protocol and cable is the only cable in all of audiophiledom that I know of that you can unplug and you will still get playback"
@jinjuku,
Again, we don’t listen or test equipments and cables on a 30 second buffer memory. Everyone understands here how music is being streamed off Ethernet and played back.
I think you’ve lost sight of OP purpose of starting this thread. You clearly don’t have any understanding on how to evaluate cables so just stick with your 20 seconds ’gimmicky’ of unplugging cable and so on.
When challenged hucksters are full of bravado and then they get even louder and louder about how confident they are."
>>>>Whoa! What? Are you insane? I was the subject of Randi’s trolling in five count em five of his weekly blogs. He went after me for the clock, he went after me for the Intelligent Chip and he went after me for the Teleportation Tweak. Randi was only interested in one thing. Getting attention. As a former Las Vegas magician he was skilled in drumming up an audience. But Randi had no interest whatsoever in high end audio, or low end audio for that matter. Except if it got him some attention. One assumes the business of going after dowsers and spoon benders was rapidly drying up. His whole James Randi Education Foundation schtick was founded on the idea of going after the paranormal. That’s why Johnny Carson left him a million bucks, to found the "education foundation." To go after charlatans and ghost busters. Not to go after audiophiles. Hel-loo! But, as they say in Paree, any port in a storm. ⛈ ⛈
How anyone can equate high end audio with the paranormal is just plane crazy. I even had one of Randi’s goons threaten to kick my you know what. I even had one of his goon’s challenge me to a karate fight on board the Randi yatch down in the Caribbean. I declined the offer as I did not wish to hurt the poor fellow. The trouble with pseudo skeptics is they’re not equipped to deal with reality. It’s all about attention, you know, like the YouTube video currently under discussion. 😛
Everyone understands here how music is being streamed off Ethernet and played back.
That’s news to me.
I have a simple question:
When you are playing back music and the Ethernet cable is disconnected and you still hear music. What happens to the SQ?
When you are playing back music and the Ethernet cable is disconnected and it’s going to play for ~ another 30 seconds and I place a different Ethernet cable back in what happens at the point I plug it back in and what happens at the point the Application calls on the OS to prefetch?
The trouble with pseudo skeptics is they’re not equipped to deal with reality. It’s all about attention, you know, like the YouTube video currently under discussion.
I'm willing to deal with the reality of showing the community at large, via a YT video, on your own setup you crashing and burning.
Whatever your current RJE is, I'll make one 300% longer, same construction (shield etc). Put it on Periscope in real time.
The next to last comment on the 1st page of this discussion by Milpai is the straightforward truth. Just because you or your equipment can't hear the difference in quality cables doesn't mean the difference doesn't exist for others. I've had systems in my home from peanuts to $100K+, And cables, including Ethernet (Cat 5, 6, 7 & 8), make a world of difference. In fact, I don't ever remember when changing a cable didn't either improve or degrade what I experienced in my not so humble opinion.
Clearly you can hear differences in all manner of cables in various systems and cannot remember not actually hearing a difference when changing any cable.
So when is the session with Jinjuku to be held to prove your point?
Or when pressed do you only have excuses why it can't be done?
The way you described things - a test with Jinjuku should be a walk in the park for you as you can hear differences with any cable...
The next to last comment on the 1st page of this discussion by Milpai is the straightforward truth. Just because you or your equipment can’t hear the difference in quality cables doesn’t mean the difference doesn’t exist for others. I’ve had systems in my home from peanuts to $100K+, And cables, including Ethernet (Cat 5, 6, 7 & 8), make a world of difference. In fact, I don’t ever remember when changing a cable didn’t either improve or degrade what I experienced in my not so humble opinion.
And I know how Ethernet works. I’m telling you it’s 100% delusion regardless of listener or system when I have two same constructed, both pass spec, Ethernet cables.
I’ll do this in your own system with the same class cable, equivalent construction, and 300% longer than the current esoteric patch cable you are using.
Well Soundlabs U-2 are super revealing speakers and with 100K+ of other gear let's hope wgutz is willing to step up, as with the quality of his gear there would be absolutely no reason for any differences not to be easily audible.
1st, Jinjuku, please do come to my home in Denver while you are attending the Audiofest in Denver coming up in October. I live in north Denver.
2nd, I am not a gambler, especially since I now make less than I once paid in taxes.
3rd, I have two five meter 6A cables. One from Blue Jeans and one home made (with my friends). from Western Electric specialty made ethernet that we subsequently cryo-treated. The Siemens connectors, each end, cost twice as much as the full spec Blue Jeans cable. And I would say the improvement is not "obvious" but more like a 2% improvement. So yes, a 2% improvement for 10+X the money may not be a financially balanced investment, but then better audio never made that claim.
4th, I run Teo, Audioquest Sky & Cheetah to my fully custom tube based pre-amp and amp. Disruptor USB from my laptop back to my Wadia DAC. I make minor changes to my equipment monthly. This month was gold pin tube sockets for the pre-amp tubes (just as an example). Last month was single resistor ladder separate mono volume controls, the 6th set of pots in my pre-amp.
5th, Al Stiefel, who started Audiofest, was my mentor taught me a bit about high end audio.
So, come on out and we can decide together if there are sound improvements in Ethernet.
And cables, including Ethernet (Cat 5, 6, 7 & 8), make a world of difference.
to
3rd, I have two five meter 6A cables. One from Blue Jeans and one home made (with my friends). from Western Electric specialty made ethernet that we subsequently cryo-treated. The Siemens connectors, each end, cost twice as much as the full spec Blue Jeans cable. And I would say the improvement is not "obvious" but more like a 2% improvement
btw thanks for the invite but my RMAF is already booked and I'll be out at another forum members house on Saturday.
Sunday I fly out from Denver to SLC to visit another friend and then back home Tuesday. Let me look for when I am heading out for Phoenix. I could finish up there, then one way to Denver, then one way back home.
Cool. I hope you can meet up and above all keep things friendly.
Kudos to wgutz for being willing to try. I know my setup isn’t affected audibly by cables or even an audio bridge but I believe others have encountered this phenomenon. So I believe some gear can benefit.
I think I am done with this discussion. And I will go to bed tonight glad that I am on the right (scientific/common sense) side of this issue. And I'll wake up in the morning to enjoy another day with my music...knowing that I haven't been scammed into wasting money on useless accessories that accomplish nothing more than making me think that I am cooler than Joe Schmoe because my stereo cables are fat, frozen, battery powered, elevated and shiney. So funny.
Don't bother, Geoff, I sorta know what you will say.
Glad you are happy and had a good laugh. Life is too short to get worked up over things like this and we can all use a good laugh 😆
I can disagree with people as much as much as anyone but I still respect everyone and their right to hold on dearly to what are often opposing viewpoints!
As I have stated, I do believe some are finding audible differences. I only disagree about the root causes of those differences.
Good of you to do this Jinjuku. I have had enough of the abusive spoonbenders and alternative facts here. I saw your video, and it was fun if it wasn't so distressing to see the dishonesty. Is there a portal or something where I can find all your videos?
willemj, you mentioned on some thread here you had a second system in your study. Can I suggest you might have been better off if you had not listened to quite so much music there and had used that particular room for the purpose it was intended? You might consider adding Little Miss Manners to the library in your study.
I only trust what I perceive and hear. If one has been around audio for awhile, you have likely bought, or at least tried, some gear that had amazing specs only to find it sounds like crap. As such, I have very little interest in techno measurements,
Consider that it is a compliment to Blue Jeans that they can make a tested, spec provided 6A Ethernet cable for less than one-tenth of what it costs me to obtain a 2% improvement. I have spent a whole lot more for a 1% improvement. Why? Because if you can get a few percent here and there over a period of years it is a combined 20+% improvement.
As many audiophiles know, improvements in your sound are on a steep exponential cost curve, especially when you have already invested the time and money to have a solid "base" of equipment making excellent sound already. And sometimes this means going in a direction that others consider to be backwards in the areas of technology, cost, design, power, etc.
So, yes, to me a 2% improvement is a "world of difference" because it was an expensive, time consuming and perhaps fun battle to achieve. More importantly, It is more enjoyable to listen, Is there better sounding equipment than mine? Definitely. But the goal we share is to improve our system within each of our own constraints of time, money, desire, wife acceptance (if applicable), hearing and basic reality.
My associates at work occasionally ask as to what kind of music do I listen. The only answer I have been able to pull together as an honest response is that I look for what is "musical.." And that defies all the genre categories.
So, enjoy the music and fiddle with your sound quality as you feel is most appropriate.
I don’t recall ever seeing you apologize. And you probably hold the record on audiogon for belittling folks and calling them sarcastic names. Your standard tactic being to insult the person rather than address the points in a discussion.
So I am not sure why you of all people should be affronted and feel you are deserving of an apology for your wee hurt little feelings 😰😰😰
And I suspect you presume too much that you actually speak for "us" - being I suppose all your wee brothers and disciples here on the Gon...
Would it be presumptuous of us to expect an apology from jujitsu after his little get together?
Geoff,
Exactly what would I be apologizing for? To date I've at the least used everyone's handle here.
WGutz,
I would like to see if the 3rd weekend in October will work for you
My plan would be using Rene van Es's exemplar setup when he did a deep dive into the audibility of CAT cabling. I will simplify with a Cisco Switch that takes one input and has two outputs. With the LAG configuration the switch provides a faux MAC address that maps to the ports that are outbound to your Streamer/Computer/Endpoint.
This will allow the cable to be switched at the Streamer/Computer/Endpoint with out causing an issue from the perspective of the source.
Please provide a specific day and time as I would like to invite a few of my friends. I feel a simpler approach is to plug in each of the CAT wires directly and thereby avoid any issues of additional elements, such as the wire from the source to the switch.
The Cisco is going to allow me or even one of your friends to swap out just at the endpoint device to minimize error.
Let me firm up my schedule and how much time would you need playing around with this prior to evaluating blind?
I can suggest two methods:
If your player has enough buffer just queue up tracks and the cable can be changed/unchanged(that is same cable removed and plugged back in) out at a random interval.
Or
Setup a looping track or a snippet of a track with a 15 second interval track between and the possible swap would happen then.
It is all good, my setup is simple. I'm sending my cable to Blue Jeans to make sure it meets the 6A standard. Not sure if 15 seconds is long enough to figure much out, so perhaps we can do some full tracks too. You want to know the cables are equals in potential performance and this way we can know. Bill
Well t_ramey, why don't you send one out to me. As far as I know, we are comparing the Blue Jeans 6A to my home terminated Western Electric 6A, which I like slightly better, even if it did cost me 10X+.
Jinjuku thinks all similar capacity cables sound the same by a sort of definition of how Ethernet works.
While I can accommodate any number of cables (actually up to 7) with my switch (I also have 48 port switches with L3) by expanding the LAG group to additional ports I would like to not open this up to a bunch of cables unless wgutz feels that it won’t be a detriment to bias controlled evaluation.
I'm also going to bring some bulk cable and can terminate it on the spot.
Right. T Ramey just wants to throw in the Supra 8, But I do agree that is a "post" evaluation listening. I would like to have a 5 meter Audioquest Vodka to try as I believe this cable is a good representation of the quality of better cables. But certainly 4 or 5 would be the max as at least I am not doing this as a critical evaluation as much as a personal learning experience. Bill
Wow. What a disappointment. I came on this thread to see what the OP found RE which Ethernet cables worked best for him and for other's suggestions, and instead I mostly had to scroll through 10 pages of "discussion" on whether I should care.
While I await further actual discussion and advice on which Ethernet cables perform better, I do enjoy attempts to explain how things actually work to produce a given outcome or experience, rather than passionate recitals of theory for why they should not. As usual, I do find @almarg 's comments and explanations useful in this regard, particularly this excerpt from his post on 4/20/2017:
"in a post in this thread dated 3-28-2017 I suggested the following experiment to some of the others:
Tune a portable battery powered AM radio to an unused frequency, with the volume control set at a position that you would normally use. Bring it close to an unshielded ethernet cable on your LAN, while the cable is conducting traffic. You may be surprised at what you hear.
When I do that with the unshielded Cat5e cable I have on the LAN in my house, while the cable is **not** conducting any large amount of traffic, I hear increases in static from the radio when it is as far as 2 feet from the cable. Keep in mind that an AM radio is designed to just be sensitive to a narrow (~10 kHz) range of frequencies in the lower part of the RF region (nowhere close to frequencies corresponding to the bit rate of ethernet traffic, much less to the frequency components that constitute the risetimes and falltimes of the signals), and to have a sensitivity measured in microvolts. And for audio we’re dealing with microvolts as well, but without the benefit of the radio’s narrow band filtering. For digital audio if 2 volts corresponds to full scale the least significant bit of a 16 bit word corresponds to about 30 microvolts. And the least significant bit of a 24 bit word corresponds to about 0.1 microvolts! And perhaps more significantly there are jitter effects that will arise as a result of noise whenever D/A conversion is performed, of course. And this experiment just involves radiation of RFI through the air. Not through what would seem likely to potentially be much more significant unintended pathways for digital noise, such as grounds, other wiring, and parasitic capacitances within the components.
Regards, -- Al"
This has me me wondering if at least part of the issue with Ethernet cable design execution and performance is to curtail the bad things that unshielded or poorly shielded Ethernet cables may do to other low level signals in nearby analog or other digital cables or their connectors in the vicinity of a shared piece of equipment. Could it also be that the digital signal in the Ethernet cable could be corrupted in some audible way by interference from high current or high frequency signals in the vicinity of your gear stack to the point that it defeats buffering or operates on the signal at some point downstream to inject noise in digital or analog signals. This may result from a number of parameters including the quality of other critical cables in use, wireless signals in the area, the physical layout of equipment boxes and the cables behind your gear, and as Al notes the design and behavior of the gear itself with respect to external interference. All this without even invoking the design trade offs and opportunities for noise generated within the connected circuits themselves, as described by Al.
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