Most Important, Unloved Cable...

Isn’t this thread a thinly disguised and deliberate attempt at trolling?

It starts off with an appeal to authority and then goes on to aggressively attack those who do not hear any differences; "cognitive dissonance" and "hearing for crap" and "should exit the hobby". Basically if you can't see the emperor's fantastic colourful clothes then you are stupid....

Did Doug forget his meds this morning or a little too much coffee?

@almarg

Quote

As an electrical engineer having extensive experience designing high speed digital, analog, A/D converter, and D/A converter circuits (not for audio), I don’t find the reported differences to be either surprising or mysterious. And I consider them to be well within the bounds of established science and engineering.

Most likely what is happening is that differences in the characteristics of the cables, such as bandwidth, shielding, and even how the pairs of conductors that carry the differential signals are twisted, are affecting the amplitude and spectral characteristics of electrical noise and/or RFI that finds its way via unintended pathways to unintended circuit points "downstream" of the ethernet interface in the receiving device. "Unintended circuit points" may include the D/A circuit itself, resulting in jitter, and/or analog circuit points further downstream in the component or system, where audible frequencies may be affected by noise that is at RF frequencies via effects such as intermodulation or AM demodulation.

"Unintended pathways" may include, among other possibilities, grounds within the receiving device, parasitic capacitances, coupling that may occur into AC power wiring, and the air.

What can be expected regarding such effects, however, is that they will be highly system dependent, and will not have a great deal of predictability.


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Yup. Badly designed or faulty equipment will indeed be vulnerable to unintended pathways.

Always better to get good equipment to begin begin with rather than band aid things by finding the least bad sounding Ethernet cable !!!!!

@douglas_schroeder

I don’t agree.

I prefer to buy audio equipment that maximizes the source signal and minimizes errors from unintended pathways like Ethernet or power supply, humidity, temperature etc.

I am sorry but I don’t care what expensive name is on a product - if the product is badly designed such that you have to baby it with special cables this is just all too ridiculous to me - more so the more costly (and supposedly robustly performant) the product. For me it is best to move on when a product is as finicky as worrying about an Ethernet cable.

@folkfreak  

I have observed jitter problems with DSP DACS and even CD players.

I am aware of jitter transmission issues with clock signals.

Since I moved to Benchmark DAC's about a decade ago I have not had any jitter issues (at least not audible ones). I use optical - so no physical wires between my digital sources and the DAC (except what they share through mains power)

My understanding is that Benchmark are not using traditional jitter prone PLL master/slave algorithms and my listening experience seems to support their claims.

@grannyring 

I do not stream. I use CD quality or higher resolution only.

Bill,

I think the point is that we can hear differences. Fortunately I have a setup that does not emphasize minute differences in wires or the digital source or power cord or whatever extraneous. All the focus, accuracy and precision is on the source music.

Having the right equipment is the major battle. Band-aids will always be band-aids.

@douglas_schroeder  

So let me get this straight.

Audio gear that is 100% totally sensitive and completely transparent to the audio signal (music) with zero distortion or coloration or any artifacts from power, Ethernet cables or other external non-musical factors is JUNK?

OK. Now I have that straight it is clear we are not pursuing the same high-fidelity hobby, as in the highest fidelity to the music or source signal. I do not understand why  music enthusiasts would want to hear effects from cables, wires and vagaries in power rather than the purest cleanest music as faithful to the source as possible..... but to each his own.

@jinjuku

Amazing to see that that those from the school of you can’t dismiss all manner of tin foil hat tweaks "unless you have actually tried them you can’t have an opinion" - apparently will not test their own assertions!!!

Frankly it is laughable that high end audio gear would be affected by an Ethernet cable. What you have demonstrated is that even modest equipment costing a few hundred $ is more reliable than boutique high end audio gear that is so badly designed that you have to worry about speaker cables, power cords, interconnects and now Ethernet cables.

To me the answer is simple - if a mere Ethernet cable affects the sound then get rid of that piece of sh*t boutique high end audio boat anchor as soon as possible - no matter the prestigious name and all the marketing tripe and testimonials. Plain and simple if something minor like an Ethernet cable makes a difference then the entire audio chain, setup and system is suspect!

Until reviewers get reliable high performance setups we will get testimonials for all manner of bogus results from every and all kinds of tweaks. The point is that good audio systems should NOT be so terribly temperamental and unreliable!

@jinjuku.

But the golden eared gurus who review and advise the masses are able to hear the difference in the quality of the coal burning at the coal-fired electric power station from 50 miles away - so why not Ethernet cables?

I suspect most of us realize that every slight movement of our head and position will change the sound quite audibly - some of us are able to recognize this as a non-equipment non-source music extraneous factor while others attribute this to the last tweak they made. It is next to impossible to make a change and then listen again in the exact same spot - a mere cm make a difference (at least I can hear audible differences from movement of less than a cm)

@jinjuku

The OP just "knows" he is right and you are wrong. It has nothing to do with ears and everything to do with a closed mindset. I maintain it is faulty boutique equipment and incorrect setups that account for all the weird and amazing "audible" tweaks from extraneous factors reported by audiophiles but perhaps it is delusion or faulty hearing that makes things sound different every time.

Contrary to the wisdom here - NOT hearing differences from things that should NOT logically make a difference may be a sign that the listener has superior ears, a critical unbefuddled mind and a solid highly resolving system. IMHO

Lignite-based power plants with Cat 6 work well. If you have harsh or glaring sound then it might be bituminous coal at the power station which burns with a white flame and needs cat 7 to sound smoother.

@jinjuku

The silence of the evangelists in response to your $2000 challenge is absolutely deafening. Any rational person has to ask, "how real can these claimed audible effects be if the evangelists refuse to pocket easy money and dismiss the opportunity to prove their claims?"

I welcome challenges like yours as it helps frame my own audio obsession within the context of reality. Sure I get as excited about the latest SOTA wonder gear as the next audiophile but technical knowledge like yours allows me to realize that perceived differences can be down to human error, listener position, volume levels and of course the biggest culprit - badly designed, badly built and incorrectly set up boutique audio gear that is totally unreliable from one moment to the next (you don’t need to change anything for it to sound different as it is "tuned" to the fuse, power or wires connected to it rather than the source signal/music.)

@almarg

+1 I agree it is most likely the faulty poorly designed boutique equipment used by the evangelists here.

Knowing what Jinjuku has stated technically about Ethernet (all that buffering of digital bits) then the ONLY conclusion is that "unintended pathways" are interfering with the audio signal for those few audiophiles that have noted audible differences.

I recommend that those evangelist audiophiles reporting audible differences where none should exist should sell their boat anchor crap gear asap and get something that actually works reliably with ANY suitable Ethernet cable...

Reports of wild and amazing discoveries with audio equipment that is clearly on the fritz is a waste of everyone’s time.

@almarg

You start off with a euphemistic statement

" I agree that sensitivity to ethernet cable differences is a manifestation of less than ideal behavior by the components that are involved."

Come on. Seriously, there is NO advantage to making electronics gear where audio signals are sensitive to various differences between Ethernet cables. There is no semi-ideal behaviour of this sort.

This "Less than ideal behaviour" in the case of high fidelity really means CRAP performance.

We measure crosstalk and channel separation on amplifiers and it is a relatively simple matter to accurately decode, buffer and isolate digital ethernet signals from analog audio. So we should be completely justified to expect that good audio gear should be immune from small changes in Ethernet wiring.

There is NO extreme position in expecting audio gear to perform properly!!!

The extreme position is in making all kinds of excuses for totally inadequate "high fidelity" gear that cost a small fortune and almost certainly should perform better than $250 Best Buy basic gear (which by all accounts does not suffer from "unintended pathways" and change audibly with different Ethernet cables)

@almarg 

Of course AM radio is affected by unshielded Ethernet wires. This quite normal observation does not mean that in corollary the Ethernet signal has all kinds of digital static from the radio. Digital signals are extremely robust and there are error detection methodolgies to reject and retransmit packets of data in the event of interruption or data Tx collision from multiple devices (to the point of a hot swap of cable).

Your assertion proves nothing except you are gulible to the appeal of authority of your so called "experts". Your main argument is based on the idea that your "highly experienced" audiophiles are infallible even in the face of ludicrous claims:-

They claim that the sound output of great SOTA audio equipment SHOULD and CAN be audibly affected by changing Ethernet cables. It should NOT.

IMHO This is poorly designed or faulty equipment and there is no way around this because "high fidelity" is supposed to be as faithful as possible to the source audio and NOT extraneous factors. I contend that an audiophile should NOT use or purchase this type of equipment but rather find equipment that works properly - this is hardly an extreme position!

@jinjuku. 

That Ethernet packet noise might affect a badly designed DAC is not surprising. 

I recall early implementations of a USB in DACs also ran into problems (again badly designed equipment)

It took over 15 years to develop asynchronous DACs that robustly reject clock jitter. The PLL designs never worked reliably.

I use digital optical to a well tested and respected asynchronous DAC for these very reasons stated above. 

Early adopters may suffer from inadequate poorly built equipment by designers unfamiliar with Ethernet!

Wow...crickets chirping 

surely the OP or at least one of all the others who claim here miracles from bits of wire would want to pocket $20K

Mmmm ...it would seem all these incredible claimed audible differences might not be that audible after all....

Could it be that differences are really so very very subtle indeed and in many cases inaudible?

@jinjuku

You won’t get anywhere with this lot. They make wild claims and then back down and come up with 1000 excuses when challenged. There is also a big lucrative market for selling all these pointless bits of audio jewelry - so don’t expect anything remotely resembling a fair shake here.

@dynaquest14   

The larger rims do help with cornering. This is rather useless on an SUV. In the end, your brother will just be more likely to have a rougher ride, more expensive tires and a bent rim the next time he hits a pothole!

I have large AMG rims on my big lumbering Mercedes GL350 diesel truck and I totally agree it is a silly idea. Already had a rim bent...ouch!

We no longer need any test or experiment. The result is clear. Audible differences are not nearly as audible as some have claimed or anybody here could easily be 20K richer!

Ah yes the bait and switch technique. People don't like the challenging idea that claimed results aren't audible enough to be tested - so now they protest about the use of pronouns, suggest that this is some kind of Nigerian scam and self proclaim that the thread is dead! These are all smoke and mirrors from what has been demonstrated here: when challenged nobody is willing to stand behind their claims of audible differences!

@clearthink

There has been no scam. Jinjuku has not cheated anyone. The only thing plain for all to see is your nasty personal attack against someone who simply challenges your line of thinking.

As for my experience, I know for a fact you are right about cables as I have heard it myself many times but these effects are mostly subtle and ONLY audible when using poorly designed, poorly matched and/or malfunctioning audio components. Of course you hear differences because almost anything can influence the sound of broken or badly designed equipment. There is nothing at all even remotely surprising about this discovery. The conclusion that cables are a key component in the sound and deserving of high $$$ expenditures is the tomfoolery of a winkley dinkler. The choice is simple when faced with audible changes in a setup where none should occur: Switch out your faulty gear and take a leap forward in high fidelity or continue tinkering with band aids like cables and fuses!

@clearthink

I will bow out of this conversation as you appear to be suffering from conspiracy theory paranoia. I am not Jinjuku. Neither I believe is Dynaquest. If someone challenges your beliefs or sees things differently from you it does not automatically mean there is a nefarious intent. Jinjuku presented a difference in opinion on the audibility of Ethernet cables and was actually willing to challenge others to test the differences in the system of choice of those making the wild claims. All harmless stuff to me. The fact that no test will happen simply adds more weight to the view that the audibility of differences are pretty small or subtle, if any.

@clearthink 

You stated this on another thread where you very very heavily promoted TruFi:

" I am a client of Bo's and it has been proven to me and it has been proven to everyone that the world of music reproduction systems is shifting from one of widdley-tiddley voodoo to TruFi, which is recognized by all who hear it. "

Since Jinjuku has been civil and respectful and it is actually you who is making all the nasty assertions about others on these forums, I suggest that is you who should identify yourself! Are you Bo? Are you a shill for TruFi? What is your affiliation to Bo?

As I understand it, TruFi is a commercial endeavour that simply sells third party components especially selected by Bo using his genius and TruFi patented technology... sounds like a scam to me but perhaps you can explain.

I have no idea who jinjuku is but I do know a troll and will no longer feed it.

I believe Clearthink is Bo.

@geoffkait   

This has nothing to do with Randi. 

You and many others are obfuscating the discussion with Strawmen and all manner of assertions.

It is pretty simple.

Either claims of audible differences are easily and readily apparent or they are subtle or not audible. 

Apparently these differences are most likely NOT easily audible as Jinjuku has not had a single person take up his challenge.

This actually says a whole lot about those folks here who claim everything (even a fuse direction) makes an audible difference!!!!

BTW I can beat Tiger Woods at golf all the time. However I am too busy to play against him and anyway those tournaments are rigged so I refuse to participate. But it is a fact that I golf better than Tiger Woods.

@clearthink

For the record I am not jinjuku and my audio system and pics are listed on Audiogon for many years. I take exception to your unfounded and insulting accusations and statements. I am willing to accept your apology for your insulting behavior and I am actually interested to learn about your game/changing TruFi setup?

 Since you impune the integrity of others here then please share your setup and demonstrate both your credibility and integrity.

@geoffkait   


WRONG AGAIN.

You are only correct when it comes to selling audio which is why the audio market is replete with snake oil and wild unsubstantiated claims. Many areas are regulated such that claims must be substantiated.

Examples are everywhere - from food labels, building codes, fire ratings, UL laboratories on electrical appliances, fuel MPG ratings and even when you gas up your car (the pumps are tested to ensure you are getting the required amount you paid for)

Your belief and attitude however says a whole lot about you! I definitely would never want to travel on Geoffkait airlines if you owned an airline.

@geoffkait   

Ethernet is digital. Digital eliminates small analog differences completely. Unless you think that the shape of the bits (rounder 0 and sharper 1) is being affected by directionality, shielding, resistance and capacitance of wire. (That increasingly seems to me to be your education level when it comes to digital)

Since there is no audio clock timing information conveyed over an ethernet cable it can’t make any difference at all UNLESS your gear is crap (something extraneous affected by the cable used like grounding or load or digital noise related crosstalk on to the audio signal). Same for an identical file streamed on the internet halfway across the world or one from your local server.

Why can’t folks understand this?

@geoffkait 

Sigh! Yes of course digital propagates as an analog signal. The key is to understand that the threshold between a 1 or a Zero is so large and that checksum and other additional packet error checking information allows a packet of digital data to arrive in the memory of downstream devices perfectly.

If digital was not such an incredibly robust method of data storage and transmission then internet and computers and software would not function at all. What errors we do encounter are down to hardware or programming errors in the devices and switches themselves and not the ethernet wires which work to spec or don't work (in which case a dropout can occur)

I can see how a different cable could make a difference but ONLY with crap equipment. Just consider that there are electrical signals coming in and going out through the ethernet port.

If your audio device is crap then presumably the simple act of receiving a burst of signal or transmitting a burst of signal on the ethernet port may disrupt or add noise to the analog output. (Like transformer hum 60Hz power supply noise that somehow makes it to the analog out)

For such a crap device, perhaps a different cable will be less noisy who knows... it is hard to conclude anything with such poorly designed and constructed equipment. 

The key is to understand that properly designed equipment will ensure that ethernet communications are totally isolated from the analog output. This is a MAJOR design requirement for a good DAC - just like channel separation, THD+N and other specifications - a GOOD design isolates everything that is not audio (power supply, physical vibration, remote control interface etc) from contaminating the analog output.

@jinjuku    

"I don't see, nor have seen any credible hypothesis promoted, how a $700 cable with 8 metal conductors and shield (either floated, full/partial tied) would mitigate this noise vs another like built, 8 metal conductors and shield (either floated, full/partial tied) where they both pass what the standards body deems as in spec. "

Agreed. However if you accept that equipment is badly designed and faulty (contamination from TCP/IP communication is reaching the analog out) then a mere change of cable might influence things in an unpredictable manner. 

I am convinced that some anecdotal reports are pure placebo (result of parting with $700) effect but many others are actual equipment issues that happen to be identified or brought to a users attention when swapping out cables.

Do not underestimate the amount of badly built equipment out there. Manufacturers read the latest DAC chip instruction manual and throw a DAC together with a gorgeous looking faceplate and there you go. Analog audio designers are often challenged when faced with advanced digital circuitry, ethernet, USB, firmware etc. - the possibilities for overlooking error and contamination sources multiply in digital.




 

@jinjuku 

A place to start is forums where those with certain DACs claim a big difference with a reclocker or audio USB bridge.

I would have expected at least one person here to be able to accept your challenge but alas nobody is confident enough of their ears or what they think they heard.

I have read that the Holospring DAC sounds much better with a Singxer SU 1 

I have heard only very subtle differences on other systems / certainly too small to pick reliably in a blind test. I put it down to better jitter rejection which can be very subtle to hear.

I was totally unable to hear a difference on any of the digital inputs on my DAC (USB, optical, coax) with or without an audio bridge (Singxer SU 1). 

@geoffkait 

Just a heads up you misquoted me. 

I said "Some" not "All"

@geoffkait 

I didn't see your explanation of how the sound keeps playing with Ethernet cable unplugged?

I take it you are totally stumped 🤔 ? 

The reason is ethernet data is transmitted asynchronously to the buffer on demand and when the buffer is lower the device will call for more data. There is often enough buffered data to play for about 30 seconds😆. 

@jinjuku    

 All you will ever get here is evasiveness. 

It is exactly the same that Randi found. 

When challenged hucksters are full of bravado and then they get even louder and louder about how confident they are. 

Ask for a demonstration and they are suddenly evasive and the personal attacks start. 

You won't get anywhere here - too much money in selling bits of over priced wired (new and used). 

However, I have a lucky Rabbit's foot that although expensive will make your system sound wonderful if you are interested?

@wgutz   

Clearly you can hear differences in all manner of cables in various systems and cannot remember not actually hearing a difference when changing any cable.

So when is the session with Jinjuku to be held to prove your point?

Or when pressed do you only have excuses why it can't be done?

The way you described things - a test with Jinjuku should be a walk in the park for you as you can hear differences with any cable...

Cool. I hope you can meet up and above all keep things friendly.

Kudos to wgutz for being willing to try. I know my setup isn’t affected audibly by cables or even an audio bridge but I believe others have encountered this phenomenon. So I believe some gear can benefit.

@geoffkait 

Glad you are happy and had a good laugh. Life is too short to get worked up over things like this and we can all use a good laugh 😆

I can disagree with people as much as much as anyone but I still respect everyone and their right to hold on dearly to what are often opposing viewpoints!

As I have stated, I do believe some are finding audible differences. I only disagree about the root causes of those differences.

@geoffkait

I don’t recall ever seeing you apologize. And you probably hold the record on audiogon for belittling folks and calling them sarcastic names. Your standard tactic being to insult the person rather than address the points in a discussion.

So I am not sure why you of all people should be affronted and feel you are deserving of an apology for your wee hurt little feelings 😰😰😰

And I suspect you presume too much that you actually speak for "us" - being I suppose all your wee brothers and disciples here on the Gon...

@knownothing

Yes of course any differences with digital ethernet cables might be related to a failure of the audio component to screen out interference. It doesn’t really matter how the exact source of contamination or corruption of the audio signal occurs. It is simply a fact that the audio component is inadequately designed as designers should test and anticipate extraneous noise sources from cabling that they typically expect to be used. So the equipment is faulty.

@knownothing 

Absolutely agree with you that there are many possible sources of contamination of the audio signal. Designers need to worry about and test for a variety of configurations to ensure noise or any form of contamination/distortion never reaches the analog. 

If noise or anything extraneous detrimentally affects the analog audio signal then the design has failed to deliver the highest fidelity.

If different ethernet cables have audible differences then it stands to reason that IOP will be an even bigger factor. It would not make sense to run listening tests on various ethernet cables without testing such a key factor as IOP at the same time.

On the flip side if IP is robust enough to go over wifi, ethernet, optical or IOP and through countless servers reliably and perfectly then there should be no audible difference between various cables and/or IOP (if all the components  work properly)

@grannyring

There was an open invitation to anyone by Jinijuku to try whatever was proposed/offered in a person's own set up.

To bad really. Should have offered some nice Wireword etc. for the test.

Geoff,

The onus is on the person making wild claims to provide proof. If someone else says it is a scam then those making the wild claim should simply provide proof to the contrary.

That is how science works. Jinjuku should have been challenged and easily proved wrong a long time ago( if any of the wild cable claims were the least bit true).

Those who are justifiably skeptical do not have to provide proof that the wildest claims are indeed bogus. Every significant leap in technology comes with a repeatible demonstration to convince others of the new scientific discovery.

@geoffkait 

Give me a break. YOU raised the topic of negative test results proving nothing. I simply pointed out that you are correct - the evidence must be supplied by those making the wild claims!

Anyone else having trouble reading comments on this thread?

Everything Grannyring and Knownothing have posted is totally garbled gobbledygook.

@grannyring and @knownothing

iF tHiS pOst loOKs oDd oN yUoR sCreEN tHen YoU hAve biG pRoblEmS WiTh yUoR eTherNeT cAblE, uSb, rOuTEr and pOwER!