Most Beneficial Cable Upgrade

Nordost cables have a great rep. But others have remarked that with solid state, they might not be the best match having a "thin side" that works better with very full tube electronics.

I am in the midst of doing a two part cable upgrade spread out over the next couple of months. Now when I visit Audiogon, and visit the cable sectiion (which I love to read by the way), I assume we are almost always talking about stereo rigs and not a HT set-up(a given in my mind).

I can tell you that in my set-up, I have two aftermarket power cords. One is connected to the pre/pro and one is connected to my Rega Saturn CDP. I can also tell you that when I made the change to the Rega it was obvious and for the better. I hate to use "the words" but for sure there was more detail and ever so much of just a touch of sweetness, maybe this is known at PRAT? Really, it was there and even before the cable was fully "burned-in". I think I noticed just a little less in the pre/pro but two things to consider, the cord I used on Rega was the next step up in the line for the brand and number two my pre/pro is probably the weak link in my chain and perhaps less up to such improvements?

I never did buy an upgraded cable for my HT amp which is fairly high quality for an HT amp. I just ordered one a couple of days ago finally and we will see what it does. It's a Simaudio Titan and I just have a feeling it probably will turn out to be the best upgrade of the three although it took me awhile to get to it. We shall see.

And on the subject of HT. That weak link pre/pro I mentioned(and not that it was bad at all) but is being replaced by what I think is a superior piece of gear. The Classe SSP-800. My real question is this. I have a fairly entry level IC from my current pre/pro to amp. I will be buying XLR as both the Classe and Titan can except XLR.

I take it I want to treat the Classe just like a high end CDP or pre/amp and buy the best XLR I can(in my price point) for the front three channels and I do believe I can step it way down for the rear two channels. I do not listen to multi-channel music. I am 2.1 or blu-ray concerts. I think the majority of my budget should be in the front three stage. Agreed? Do you folks put a lesser quality IC for the rear two?

Those of you who are lucky enough to have a nice stereo rig and a nice HT rig or those with a nice combined rig, do you place a high level on the ICs for the pre/pro like you might a stereo only rig? Blu-ray concerts are also important to me...

Thanks. And for the record I have Nordost Blue Heaven ICs and speaker cable and it sounds okay but perhaps it is on the thin side and this will be my first real big jump in cables. I will be connecting Dynaudio Confidence speakers, Classe SSP-800 pre/pro, Simaudio Titan amp and Rega Saturn CDP. Is there bias towards HT euipment and usage verses stereo only rigs in regards to cables?

I have some speaker cables coming from Cable Co to audition but the ICs will be in six to eight weeks or so. Speaking of which, ICs or speaker cable first in my situation? (-:

I will let you know how the amp cable upgrade goes.. Should be here a week or so..

Hope you stayed awake.... (-:

Rick

SGR,
Good advice.
The people at Nordost strongly advocate using one brand for cables (they call it the cable loom; how elegant). They even state that utilizing a single brand/type of cabling can be more important than the brand ustilized.

1. In my experience I'd stick with a family of cables. Purchase the same brand. To me the sound just becomes more cohesive.
2. I readily endorse cables made by Signal Cable, VH Audio or BPT Technology. Setting up your system with either one will give you great results. At Signal Cable call and talk with Frank, he will have specific recommendations based on your setup. At BPT call and talk with Chris he'll give you great recommendations too.
3. Don't fall into the trap of spending thousands of dollars on super expensive cables, not that I can't hear the difference, but you get so little improvement (let's agree on a different sound) from the super expensive cables vs. cables made by the above companies (there are other cable makers who make a great cable for little $$ too). I'd invest in a better preamp, speakers, CD player, or amps before spending thousands on cables.
4. Of course, cabling your system can make a big difference to the overall sonic signature, but purchasing well made, nuetral cables, and staying inside that cable family makes more sense than purchasing a hodge podge of expensive cables that really become expensive tone controls and I might add makes more sense than purchasing the hot "Cable of the Month".
Just my opinion of course,
Best listening,
Sgr

i would like to know if it is the wire, the configuration/design or amount of wire, or the better plugs. maybe it is a combination of everything.

Hotmailjbc - same result with my DIY. Sounds like a new system.

Craig

last night i put a ps audio powerpunch [40 dollars] ac cord on my decco/mmg bedroom system. straight to the wall/ no power conditioner. if there is anyone here that says i didn,t hear immediate improvement in 3d, openness, musicality i will ship them the stock cord because i am going to throw it away with the garbage.

I also have a lot of Kimber select cable (speaker/interconnect). My dealer has mentioned to me that Kimber has outlets that they/he feel improve the performance of the power cord/system. I am still waiting for my new power amp delivery and power cable audition. It could be a few more weeks before delivery.

Matjet,

My experience is mostly consistent with Stanwal's original answer, that it depends on the synergy of the system. I think having a good shop that will work with you is the most important thing to arriving at a satisfying system. I'll share some of my experiences and maybe it'll be helpful:

- A few years ago I got a good deal on a WattGate audio grade outlet. Installed it and didn't give it another thought. Several months later we were selling that house so I took it out and reinstalled the regular outlet. Listening to the system subsequently I realized that it wasn't quite as extended or liquid as before. I invited the owners of the shop over a few days later and A/B'd the outlet and they noted that the soundstage was more balanced with the WattGate. I had just gotten the thing because it was a good deal on it, and I had heard that Kimber said it was a very important link in the chain. I was skeptical, but figured there would be no harm in getting it.

- Here's why a shop that will work with you is so important. My shop here expects that you will audition cables at the high-end level before buying. One night they let me take some cables home and keep them for a week or so while I was building my system. As I was driving home I did the math and realized that I had a big box in the back seat of my car with about $15k worth of speaker wire. There was probably about another $3k in interconnects. My system is such that it will resolve the differences, and in many cases differences were immediately apparent, but in all auditions I listened to the cables long enough to understand what each was doing in the system.

- It ended up taking me several months to get my system dialed-in. I tested a lot of cables and rolled a lot of tubes. And that was another thing, the guys at the shop let me bring home RCA, Tung Sol, Telefunken, Mullard, Amperex, and Sylvania tubes with which to experiment while I was auditioning different cables as well. But in each case I trusted my ears. Period.

- I didn't experiment with power cords. My instinct was that without clean power, there was no point in anything else. I have a dedicated line, audio grade outlet, power conditioners, and Kimber PK10 Gold power cords throughout. I figured that was good enough and I spent my time tuning elsewhere.

- Interconnects: I tested Kimber Timbre, Hero, and Select; a couple of Cardas; and vintage Audio Magic Sorcerer silver ribbon. I went with the Select although it could have been a coin toss between it and the Sorcerer.

- I have been helping a friend assemble his new system. We have the same CD player. On his system audible differences between the interconnects I described were much more noticable than on mine. I didn't expect that, but learned something.

Anyway, I really like the way my system worked out, but it took a lot of effort and a shop that let me audition a lot of stuff to find the right symmetry for my ears.

It is like everyone has said for eons on the Gon. System matching is everything. The Pangea AC-9 sounded great on my Proceed AMP 3 and awful on my Rowland Model 1. Who knows what impact the rest of the chain had (pre, speakers, cable, etc.).

My next step is to see if I can duplicate the magic of my first DIY cord by ordering some more THHN and better terminations.

Craig

Matjet - Update?

The power cord question has me wondering to the extent that I have designed my own experiment for this Saturday. The goal is to understand the potential magnitude of a power cord change. Since adding expensive, high-end, state-of-the-art power cords without knowing whether or not there will be improvement is impractical, I've decided on an alternative, low-end, approach.

I have received 21 power cords in 14, 16 and 18 gauges and lengths of 1, 2 and 3 feet from Monoprice.com. The total cost, including tax and deliver, is less than $30, definitely low end. The plan is to replace all the power cords in my system with the shortest possible length between my components and my very recently acquired Audience Response aR12.

Unfortunately, the complexity of changing all power cords makes blind testing overly difficult but since all power cords are changed at the same time, sonic differences should be clearly audible. I am keeping an open mind on the test and will report my findings.

Cheers,

Greg

It is interesting, but I wonder if it is more that the Pangea is wrong for the Rowland than it is that my PC is something special. More experimentation is needed.

That is very interesting Craig. Maybe you should market your new PC.

Great thread. I myself had been somewhat of a power cable skeptic until recently. I had bought a Pangea AC-9 after hearing that it may smooth out harshness in some amps. It did that to a small degree in my proceed AMP 3. When I finally got my hands on a used Rowland Model 1 I transferred the AC-9 to that amplifier. As time passed I kept thinking that the Rowland sounded dark and sluggish. So I decided to try an experiment. I had some old (25 years) Carol THHN 10awg cable in my basement. Not OCC pure. I cut it into four 10 foot lengths and used a drill to spin it into a starquad configuration. I wrapped it tightly with PVC tape and put a cheap Lowes 10AWG ground wire (counter wound) around the outside. Terminated with cheap Pass & Seymore plug and Marinco IEC. The though was that I would hear something (probably for the worse).

So I plugged in the DIY PC and fired up the Rowland. I sat there stunned as the whole sound stage opened up and became much more clear and detailed. Two nights later my Wife (who only tolerates my audio addiction) said "how does the new PC sound". I instead, asked her what she thought. W/O hesitation she said it was much clearer. You have to relalize that she never comments on this stuff. It has now been a week, and I am not going back to the Pangea. In this case my DIY cord is better (much better).

Just thought I would share my personal experience on PCs.

Regards,

Craig

Matjet,

Probably for the best. You will have some time to acclimate to your new amps. When it comes to cables, watch your wallet and trust your ears.

Greg

GSSELF
Power cable audition update:
My dealer delivered only one of two amps ordered, one is still on back order. He did not bring power cables, he said next time he will bring some.
He feels better power cables have more of an effect on sound than interconnects and speaker cable. He said the better power cables have improved inductance is more efficient in delivery of elctricity (current?) to the amps. I have known him for many years. He has always been extremely honest, never steered me wrong.
It may be a few weeks before I am able to audition the cables.

Need to carry that thought a little further. A dedicated line doesn't provide that much additional isolation if on the same phase circuit as all other circuits in the house... all of those circuits are connected in parallel at the breaker junction. To get better physical isolation your dedicated circuit needs to be on the phase connection with least amount of other disruptive devices. Most houses are at least 2 phase (220 volts) and if you have a monster power need you might be 3 phase. Most junction boxes take the easy approach of loading up all their single phase circuits on 1 phase tap. Can't say that i've played with this but you can likely run from the second phase tap for a single phase circuit

Bruce,
I agree about the noise problem in electrical line. This is one advantage of dedicated lines for power amps. It eliminates noise and draw from household electronic appliances. It provides cleaner power and more stable power.

I borrowed several simple devices, which measure noise on an AC conduit. One was Monster Power "Dr. Power" and the other was AudioPrism "Noise Sniffer". The devices seem gimicky but yield startling noises.

During the test, I unplugged the ice machine and two refrigerators. The noise was substatially reduced. I still heard static, motor whining and switching clicks. I unplugged the back-up UPS in my office and the static disapeared.

I went outside and heard my neighbor's swimming pool pump running. When the pump switched-off, I ran inside and noticed the motor noise had disappeared. I never found a local source for the clicking but suspect an old capacitor bank on the utility pole about 1/2 mile from my home.

Later that month, I purchased a used Monster Power "Monster Pro 2500" power conditioner for $100. I plugged both noise devices into the Pro 2500 and there was silence (even with the ice machine and refrigerators cycling).

I was amazed how much noise regular household devices were feeding-back onto my Stereo-dedicated AC conduit. Hair dryer, clothes washing machine, central air handler, central vacuum, VCR, food blender, bathroom exhaust fan and microwave ovens were offenders.

Now, I am ready to experiment with special power cords.

I do agree that the standard electrical outlets in most homes should be replaced; weak grip, thin contact material, cost the builder maybe $1 per duplex plug. Changing them to a higher quality plug is worthwhile and relatively easy if you are knowledgeable about electricity, circuit breakers and tools, cost me $7 per plug to replace with 20 amp heavy duty plugs. You can also buy the $50 cryo treated ones but that means 2 less (SA)CD's in your collection ( per). Interfaces are where most signal degradation/interference occurs.

I expect delivery of some new equipment tomorrow. My dealer promised to bring some high end power cables to audiition.
I have all high end equipment, including speaker cables and interconnects. All of my amps (All Krell evo e series for home theater and stereo music) are on seperate dedicated 115 amp lines. I never bothered upgrading my stock power cables, and I have never compared power cables, it has simply not been a priority for me. However, I am curious to see if changing power cables will make an audible improvement (to my ears). My plan is very simple, I will try differenct cables, short term and long term (a few days). I will try some blind and nonblind switching (with help from my wife). That is the best I can do. I have no recording equipment, so I will not do anything elaborate with reordings as mentioned above. I doubt recording with a microphpone would help since recording in this manner will add conditions which will affect sound.
I must admit, I do have a pre-audition opinion. I have been buying high end audio equipment since the early 1970's. Some changes are exremely subtle, some are very dramatic and rewarding. I think the change will be so subtle that I will have to really strain to identify the improvment. This would leave me uncertain (which I consider inconsequential). I will upgrade if I can detect an improvement. I hope it does make my equipment sound better. Like everyone else here on Audiogon, I am constantly looking for ways to improve the sound of my equipment. I will approach this with an open mind. We have had a very mixed response on this thread. Some people feel very strongly that power cables make an obvious improvement, others think it makes no difference. For me, this is all fun. The audition may take me a couple of weeks. I will let you know.

Matjet,

Have you designed the blind power cable experiment yet? For those of us interested in seeing how it pans out, understanding the process would be helpful in understanding the results. Things like the music you plan to use, the system used for testing, and if you have a 2nd or 3rd person, in addition to the person switching cables, available to listen and compare with you.

The last update was you had cables on the way and would report back. Any updates?

Greg

my first experience with power cords is when I replaced stock cords with DIY VenHaus cords, the soundfield opened up a tremendous amount and definition improved across the board.

a huge improvement for $65.00 each!

I agree with Stanwals post. As my gear improved, i heard more minute differences in the various power cables, ICs, and speaker cables that i had missed with less revealing gear. SO, in my ignorance, i thought power cables are where ALL the money should be spent. Power cables IMHO, do seem to offer the biggest immediate 'change' to the sound as a whole even when having a budget system. However, as a system evolves, I find that the signal cables are more important to get down first as they seem to offer more 'information' to come thru with a system with more resolution. The powercords cant help me with that nearly as much. Hope that make some sense. Just my two cents!

Back to the original question (novel idea, no?)...

Elizabeth’s original post is consistent with my experience. And I can’t say it’s exactly surprising; it is prioritizing the cables which handle the audio signal directly when they are at their most critical (ie. low voltage / current).

I have gone a step further and essentially eliminated speaker cables; my monoblocks are behind my speakers, oriented in such a way that the binding posts line up and there’s two inches of DIY copper foil “cable” in between the amps and the speakers. Always amazes me how so few others with monoblocks take this approach; the speaker cable is effectively gone (effect on sound AND the cost).

I have also found that the better quality your AC is, the less power cords matter. I have three dedicated runs of cryo’d Romex for my system. Preamp, TT, and SACD are on a PS Audio regenerator; monoblocks have dedicated balanced power transformers and hot to neutral capacitive filters. In this setup, I have tried some very expensive power cables, mostly out of curiosity, and heard absolutely zero difference...no joke. In lesser setups, such as when I was an apartment dweller and couldn’t have dedicated runs, there’s absolutely a difference, sometimes large.

So maybe the best way to prioritize cables is to do what you can to eliminate them altogether or reduce their effects? Just a thought.

Ctunney,

You're onto something there. Its the same with car reviewers: all it really takes is a drive down the street to ascertain whether the car is any good, comparatively, to really take notice. They've driven so many cars that they have a better feel for them. The same can be said for us audiophools. The only caveat I can think of is the break in period: therein lies the rub. Cables that are already broken in can be judged by anyone who's had some experience with his/her own system. One listens long enough to know how their system sounds so any change doesn't need a scientific committee to determine whether a change is for the better, or not.

Based your expertise as a musician, you should have no problem arriving at a conclusion that you'll be happy with. Trust you ears and don't be reluctant to experiment and enjoy your system.

A very simple version of this test would involve a CD player with a digital output and one of the DSD capable HD recorders from either Korg or Tascam. The CD player will digitally output to the DSD recorder and the test will be of three different power cords - stock, mid-level and SOTA. We can have a PC manufacturer suggest and supply the cords. The questions about break-in, settling-in or warm-up can be dealt with by having the power cords fully broken in on external cable burners and attached to the CD player for an arbitrary time period, say 72 hours, before recording. The music to be recorded should be the same for each power cable and I would suggest at least 2 hours of recording time for each cord.

Once the three separate recordings have been made you can now play them back and see if you hear any differences between the recordings. You can playback long sections, short snippets, mix and match, play at random, repeat play sections over and over, etc. and see what you hear.

As you can see, this is a simple setup, but it is scalable if you want to test larger equipment systems. I would even think that if you took the time and effort you could design a test along these lines that would optimize which power cords to use in your system, excepting power amps or speakers that require AC.

If you see holes in what I propose, then tweak it, for I think Pcoomb's basic concept is sound.

what were you going to record on? and would you listen to the recordings with or without better ac cords. and what cords would you record over? this sort of throws everything into more questions. i am sorry i didn,t say that a/bs can,t be done. i meant to say it has problems and has been dismissed by many. i would never buy anything at a store that uses a/bs as a tool for decision making. maybe you are on to something and maybe reel to reel would offer better recording data. i worked for nakamichi and sony microphones for several years and recording has to be done right as i am sure you know. thanks for continuing the discussion. very interesting. and i didn,t mean to lump all recording engineers into one pot. but the ones that keep compressing the music for louder horrible sound should stop.

Interesting thread. Appreciate hearing everyone's thoughts. I am currently trying to figure out what cables I need in order that everything will be pretty well set up when my speakers arrive (in 6 weeks...). Reading this thread has persuaded me to try the stock power cords and my existing Belden speaker cables before trying anything fancy. And that seems like a good idea--so thanks!

I am relatively new to the hi-fi audio world, but I did spend a number of years searching for and finally buying a professional quality double bass (back when I thought I was going to make my living in an orchestra). I remember that the beginning of my search was more difficult. I would spend hours playing a few instruments and get very confused. But as time went by, and as I auditioned more and more basses in all different parts of the country, it became a much easier process. It got to the point where I really didn't need to play much more than few notes to eliminate an instrument. And, in fact, I came to realize that playing an instrument for more than a few minutes was counter-productive. The more I played a bass that I didn't immediately love, the more unsure I became. I'm just blabbing--this isn't in response to anyone's comment in particular--but I think there is something very important to be said for the reaction you have in the first 3-5 seconds. Impulse, gut, or whatever you call it...

Okay, I'll give it another try.

In your 1/25 post, the one that ends "ha, right...", you use half of the "paragraph" writing about using tape decks, I think you're actually referring to cassette decks. Why? I never mentioned using a tape deck for anything.

Also, I point out that professional sound engineers and others are able to use A/B comparisons and quickly make sonic decisions. Your reply is to say that's not what the discussion is about. That's sidestepping the issue. Are sound pros able to successfully A/B and audiophiles just can't? If so, why is that?

Regarding the scientific method. I think Pcoombs has an excellent idea. Why not just record what systems sound like in different configurations and compare the recordings. It might not be foolproof, but it's certainly better than saying A/B comparisons cannot be done.

I'm intrigued by your comment that recording engineers aren't chiming in about power cords. I think that raises more questions than it answers.

if you can't hear a difference how would listening to a recording help? that is all i am asking. ps audio has some readouts of tests for the more scientificlly inclined. but you can't trust them because they are selling wire. ha

yeah you are mistaken. typical person that throws some stuff but can,t take any. ha a/b that

I'm sorry, I thought I was talking with an adult. My mistake.

If you hear a difference, fine (I always do). If you do not, that's fine too. However, there are many skeptics in these forums who I feel have never tried these changes, so their opinions should not be voiced. This audio game is all about "listening".

i was talking about trying to do a/bs in the typical hobbiests listening room. it is not easily done. ever hear about coloration caused by other speakers in the room? look at the set up required by the people that have attempted it in the past..none have been conclusive either. use your great imagination and you might be able to figure something out given your incredible brain power. and I havn,t seen any recording engineers chiming in on ac cords on their living room gear here lately. wiggle on that. the hard part is not in drawing conclusions. any idiot can do that as your post exhibits. the scientist knows that controlling the experiment is the part that is crucial. google "scientific process" if you want to inform yourself.then accurately measure the results with bias removed. a/bs have been discredited. this is a fact. where have you been. as for recording this on a tape deck which one would you use? is it 1978 and you are gonna use a pioneer ctf500? ha. even the best nakamichi or tandberg can,t make a tape good enough to settle this w/o argument. ever heard about bias/eq issues? or head alignment? what tape would you use? when was the last time you cleaned/demagnitized the deck? do you know what you are even doing? we are talking about cables performance and now we are going to measure it on antique technology? no wonder few get it. yeah i,m gonna listen and evaluate ac cords on a tape decks recordings to listen for nuances and inner musical detail. thats laughable. if you can,t hear the difference listening no a/bs or reading or gurus are going to help you. stick with stock cords they are wonderful and you don,t need anything better it is a waste of money and snake oil. ha, right...

Pcoombs, you don't need a microphone for your comparison. The room and the microphone add too much coloration and don't add anything positive to the comparison. Simply plug the power cords into an amp or preamp and record thru the tape out circuit. You can even make alllowances for the power cord to settle in and then A/B to your heart's delight.

But some people think A/B comparisons are a problem.

a/bs have been discredited

and

a/b issue is loaded with difficulties because i do not think it is possible to absolutely control the variables

I suggest that you lack the imagination to design a limited variable A/B comparison. It's easily done. (I will admit that your use of the word "absolutely" does give you wiggle room.) The hard part, as with most experiments, is interpreting and drawing conclusions from the data.

Recording engineers use A/B comparisons every day. Which mic to use with this vocalists? Do a few test recordings with different mics and A/B listen to the results. It doesn't take days. At what level should the lead vocal be placed in the mix? Do a few different mixes while varying the vocal level and then A/B listen for what you think sounds right. There are nearly a countless number of decision like these in any recording sessions and engineers/producers/musicians rely upon an A/B comparison to determine what sound they want to use. And they don't take days to do it.

pcoombs, great idea. i don,t know why kimber or another cable company with resources has not done this. maybe they are concentrating on their cables and theory and experimentation. maybe they are letting us have our own fun out here. only fanactics really care about this. the rest of the world doesn,t care as they are looking for skins or cases for their ipod/iphone.

doesn,t matter if the lights are on or not. there are always some distractions like glowing meters, ugly leds, computer screen, traffic outside, kid plotting a sneak attack from behind. i hope you will accept my apology for my strident response earlier. i think you could hear a difference in better matched cables. you surely have good taste and accumen with the nice system you have. the a/b issue is loaded with difficulties because i do not think it is possible to absolutely control the variables. and the subjective comparison process is suspect. please answer this. why do audio enthusiasts doubt a cable making an improvement but many have little idea what their crossover is built with, or how their speakers internal wiring is designed? there are many other analogous questions in electronics construction. almost every audio product has some cost/performance compromises built in. an example of this is a stock pair of magnepans and a modified pair. even the owner of the company has said a metal frame would make them sound better but is not feasable due to cost, shipping etc. so just try some ac cords and turn the lights down for a double win. thanks and i enjoy your entries. jbc

Matjet, All I'm suggesting ( and it only an idea that came to me recently....could be a terrible idea!)
is to place a mic in front of a real high end full range system and record with a suitable digital recorder a number of music tracks with the whole system wired up with ...say a loom of the 'pro' grade cables ...the type that the cable skeptics say are more than good enough (Belden for example.)
Then without changing anything,,mic position volume settings etc, replace all cables with say a real high end loom, something like Nordost Odin for example.
Then record same tracks. Then burn onto a cd, so track 1 is with beldens followed immediately with track 1 with Odins .
Then you can sit back in comfort and listen to the cd without worrying about all the things cable skeptics say will influence you're hearing.... Blood pressure changes due to changing the cables!. Time delay due to changing cables etc , etc.
and hopefully be able to form an opinion as to wether you can hear a difference and if it's an improvement and worthwhile or not.
Is only an idea but surly worth a try by somebody?

Hotmailjbc
I am curious, how would you answer the two questions?

Pcoombs
I don't understand how your cd comparison works. Please describe it step by step.

you don,t get it do you? i can hear. you must let the power cord have some energy thru it for a while for it to settle in. this makes a/bs virtually impossible. if you can't hear a difference then that is your problem. a/bs have been discredited anyway because the initial brighter sound may be more impressive at the beginning but after a while may not be what an improvement at all. this is why people that know what good sound is do not do a/bs. they listen for a few days and understand and comprehend what they are sensing. yes,,sensing. as in hearing. try it.as for liking a cable because it is attractive and expensive you need to try some various products out there. some of the best sounding are not jewlery for your system.

Matjet quote:

"How do you know that the improved sound that you perceive by installing the beautifully crafted, expensive, highly regarded after market brand name power cable is not psychological (placebo) unless you can identify it blindly?

I find testing/comparing speaker cable a pain in the neck. Lots of disconnecting, reconnecting, moving things, it is an effort. Testing power cables is less work, much easier to switch. I will do some testing within the next couple of weeks."

this is why I suggested the recording option in my earlier post here on 01_22.
I believe Wireworld produced a cable comparison cd around 8 years ago.

But I wonder why this method has not been tried since ,either by another cable company or by a member here who has the suitable equipment.
If the differences are real ( which I tend to believe are) wouldn't it be heard on such a recording?

The power cord thing is confusing. I just installed a set of DIY power cords on my power conditioner, amp, preamp and D/A. The cords use CryoParts CryroMax3 cable and low-end Furutech connectors. Parts costs is about $150/each which roughly equates to a $500-600 production cable. Each cable also has a Versalabs Red Roller at the IEC end. These cables were a switch from the Discovery Cable power cord, an entry level type product.

I initially installed a single cable feeding the PS Audio P600 power regenerator. The effect was subtle, but positive enough to make me want to go further. I then installed them on all the electronics listed above. The audio effect was definitely less subtle than adding the single cable, but still subtle. That said, I think the power cord switch was the best $600 I've ever spent on the system. The overall effect is totally positive, an improvement in all sonic areas.

But this is where the confusion comes in. I don't know what actually causes the sonic changes I hear. Is it the power cord? Is it the cord's Furutech connectors? The Red Rollers? Could it simply be the physically tighter connection the Furutechs make as opposed to the purity of the copper and polished gold plating? Maybe it's the way I positioned the cables differently due to different flexibility. Might it have nothing to do with the power cords themselves, but simply plugging them in and out several times removed a layer of oxide on the connectors. I could go on further, but I think I've made my point. Even inserting a device as simple as a power cord, and they are simple devices, introduces a relatively large number of variables to be considered.

Then you could also add price/value to the equation. I only spent $600 for the whole system. If I had spent $2,000+ would I hear differently? Or might be I have it backwards and it's the fact that I think I've scored a bargained is influencing my hearing? Like I said, it's confusing.

i know because i can hear. i understand music.i have been a industry professional since 1975 with many systems. i listen for a week or so and don,t just switch back and forth. i don,t have a team of roadies to make the switches and run a/b tests. i don,t plan on installing a soniclly transparent curtain in my living room. that is how i know. has anyone here done all this? come on,,if it sounds better trust your ears. if it doesn,t just go buy some ht theatre stuff, drink up and listen in the dark and give up. why buy sophisticated gear if you can't hear a difference?

If you haven't tested the cable change blindly, how do you know for sure?

I am not saying cable changes have no effect on the sound, I have never tested cables, so I am still uncertain. But, there is a significant psychological component which can be eliminated only with blind testing.

Let's focus on power cables for now to simplify the discussion. We all have to purchase interconnects and speaker cable since these items do not come with the audio gear. I think anyone who buys high end equipment (probably everyone on Audiogon) will purchase brand name well regarded interconnects and speaker cable. No one is going to buy fine expensive electronics and install lamp cord. Whether or not we are certain of how the cable effects the sound, I believe most of us, probably all of us, including myself, will purchase decent brand name cable with our valued gear (just in case it makes a difference). However, all electronic gear comes with power cable. Buying an expensive after market power cable is elective and not required. Some of these beautiful brand name power cables cost thousands of dollars (Esoteric Mexcel, Krell for example).

Question: Which of the two changes imporoves the sound of your system more:

1)Changing your stock power cables to an expensive high end after market power cable

2)Using the stock power cable and turning out the lights

I bet turning out the lights improves the sound just as much if not more than changing the power cables. Turning out the lights does nothing to the performance of your system, it is a psycho-acoustic effect.

How do you know that the improved sound that you perceive by installing the beautifully crafted, expensive, highly regarded after market brand name power cable is not psychological (placebo) unless you can identify it blindly?

I find testing/comparing speaker cable a pain in the neck. Lots of disconnecting, reconnecting, moving things, it is an effort. Testing power cables is less work, much easier to switch. I will do some testing within the next couple of weeks.

Just food for thought.

i totally agree. but the bass gets better with upgraded ac cords!

Hotmailjbc,
Your porch reponded better (better steering, better shocks, better tires, better acceleration, better transmission, better shift, better seats, etc); it performed better at 100 MPH than the Vega(and an any other velocity) than the Vega. So, of course you liked it better.
Your stereo will sound better with the lights dimmed or with the lights out (more musical, better 3d sound staging, better base, smoother and sweeter treble, better low level detail).Try it out tonight. Isn't that amazing! Is it real or is it placebo? It is a psycho-acoustic effect, and it affects all of us. Reviewers/magazines never discuss these issues.

last week i took my morrow sp3s out and put my kimber 8tcs in. for the next 2-3 hours it was pretty rough to say the least. i let the system play all night and the next day it was nice and smooth and musical. so for those keeping score,,,ha!!! the murrows sound great too btw.
1. i am certain i can hear a difference between cables
2. i have experienced sound getting better when they "settle in".
3. i too have experienced placeabo effect and other psychoacoustic phemonena
4. my stereo sounds better when i am in a good relaxed mood.
5. my stereo sounds better at 3am.
this may turn into one of those long threads. peace

P.S. Elizabeth,
I agree with you, if it doen't sound to your liking right away (or within a few hours), it will never sound good; get rid of it.