Schipo,
I think your expalantion is logical, it makes perfect sense. How could the last 6 feet of cable attached to the electrical outlet make such a difference when there a several hundred feet of standard wiring in the walls and out to the street that are not specially designed to improve conductance or filter out RFI.
There is a lot of marketing hype about how the expensive after market power cables improve sound by improving condutance and rejecting/filtering out RFI. Have there been any objective (scientific)studies that proove these claims? Have there been any BLIND listening tests which where listeners can consistently identify a power cable change and describe how it improves the sound? Many of the high end power cables can cost thousands of dollars! For that kind of money, it better make an obvious sonic improvement.
My dealer is going to loan my some power cables to try out (Kimber, Krell, possibly others). I plan to use them in the R/L power amps, pre-amp, CD/SACD player.I don't believe I will be able to detect an improvement. |
Schipo,
I suspect you are correct.
High end audio manufacturers like Krell, for example, are in a very small, competitive, nitch market. Krell started marketing their own power cables only wihin the past few months. I know Krell is very concerned about how their products (as sold) compare to their competitor's products. If these high end audio companies felt expensive high end power cables significantly improved the sound of their products, they would be selling their products with high end cables to give their products a competitve edge. Only a few years ago Krell made all of their amps with non-removable power cables, they didn't want people tampering with after market cables because they felt it could compromise the performance of their products. Krell proudly stated that their power supplies were superb and would adequately filter out noise. After market cables would not improve sound of their amps, and could be harmful.
Krell power supplies are still superb. But, they now sell great amps, pre-amps, etc. with removable power cables. And, they sell power cables. What has changed? Unfortunately the high end audio business environment is now extremely tough due to social economic issues (poor economy, rampant use of Low-Fi products like I-Pods, lack of interest in high end audio by a large portion of our society). Closing of many high fi audio shops has made high end retail marketing tougher than ever. Companies like Krell (and don't get me wrong, I love and own Krell products) need to tap every potential source of income. They are riding the cable market hype, created out of necessity by the cable companies, in my opinion. The margin on high end cables must be enormous. It is inexpensive and low risk to add power cables to their product line-up. If people will buy it, they will sell it; it's a matter of survival.
I have not seen any objective power cable reviews with blind comparison. Any cable review that is done without blind comparison is useless. The audio differences (if any) are simply too subtle. Placeb effect is too influential.
I challenge anyone with a great high end audio system to consistently, blindly identify a power cable change and describe how it changed/improved the sound(stock cable to any high end cable, both in excellent condition). In ten trials how many times do you think the change could be correctly identified by anyone of us? Would you be guessing or would you honestly know the difference without looking? I predict if a hundred experienced audio nuts (like me) did this test, the average would be 50% correct, which is meaningless. Unless you can detect an improvement with a blind test, what difference does it make? The answer; none whatsoever. That is why reviewers don't do objective, scientific, blind testing with cable (or anything for that matter). It would interfere with their ability to promote their advertisers.
As stated earlier, I am a non-believer in power cable upggrade. I do have several dedicated power lines with a dedicated elctrical power box for my audio system. Dedicated lines are extremely helpful. But I think the power cable upgrade issue is nothing more than market hype. I will try some high end power cables soon just for kicks. I don't think I will detect a difference. I will report back. |
To All:
Let's use the power of Audiogon and conduct our own objective test right here.
I challenge you; try this very simple objective test. Set up an honest blind test with a friend (minimum of 10 repetitions, preferrably 20):
Compare stock power cable provided with the audio equipment VS high end power cable.
With each test write down the type of cable you believe was used and how it changed the sound.
Your helper will need to secretly write down the actual cable used for each test.
How often did you get it right?
I predict we get 50% correct +/- 10%. If I am correct it means we are guessing and influenced by placebo effect. If this is the case, power cable upgrade would be meaningless for the high end audio market (unless you are a retailor or manufacturer). |
Gsself,
I do not know the answer, I have never compared power cables. My goal is two fold:
1) Determine if I can detect the difference between stock cables and expensive high end cables. I have an excellent high end audio system, but have never bothered to upgrade my power cables. I plan to test some high end cables very soon. I doubt I will detect a significant improvement. If I do, I will buy them. I will have the answer to this question soon, and I will report back (as mentioned previously).
2) What is the consensus among high end audio owners who have made the effort to do an objective evaluation of high end power cables through blind testing. I suspect we (high end audio consumers)are being manipulated by cable manufacturers and audiomagazine reviewers. The reviews on this subject are a joke. They are not objective, and I find that annoying. We can easily do our own objective test here on audiogon. As I said, I think the test will prove that the average high end consumer cannot consistently tell one cable from the other in blind listening tests. If enough members participate it will either prove me right or wrong. Either way, I don't care, I just want the answer. |
Elizabeth,
You seem to be very angry and agitated. No one is critcizing you. No one is attacking wires. This happens to be a controversial and interesting topic. I intend to do my own power cable evaluation within the next couple of weeks. I may or may not notice a difference. If I feel they help improve the sound of my system, of course I will buy them. I don't know what you mean by trolling. I am just trying to share some of my thoughts with other high end audio enthusiasts and wondering how they feel about these issues. If I was absolutely certain about any of these topics, I wouldn't waste my time discussing them here and I wouldn't bother with auditioning high end power cables. Your opinion is loud and clear, and I appreciate that. |
Hotmailjbc,
I am not saying that a perception of improved sonics with high end cables is due to placebo. I am saying placebo effect may have an influence on sonic perception. For example, I recently purchased an Esoteric K01 CD/SACD player. This is the best single box CD player I have ever heard. I auditioned the Esoteric G-Orb master clock for 2 weeks with my new player. The G-Orb is a very cool piece of equipment with amazing technology. I read several reviews and did extensive research on master clock use with two box and single box CD/SACD players (it was fun). I really wanted the G-Orb to make a significant improvement in sound, and initially I thought it did make an improvement. But after careful evaluation of all aspects of sound reproduction (dynamics, 3-d sound staging, instrument separation, bass, transients, midrange/voice, high frequency, low level detail, etc.) in all honesty, I could not detect any improvement whatsoever. My listening sessions were both lengthy and short A-B comparison using all types of music. The Esoteric K01 sounded exactly the same with and without the G-Orb (it sounds great). I think the G-orb will make a significant improvement with 2 box players (where it synchronizes the transport clock with the DAC clock), but I don't think it does a thing to improve the sound of a singal box player unless that player has a lousy clock to begin with. For me, this was a fun experiment, not a chore. My point is, subtle (not major) audio canges can easily be influenced by psychology. If we know that we are comparing a geogeous, highly regarded, expensive piece of equipment (a power cable or G-Orb master clock, for example) to an average stock power cable, I believe most of us will be subconsciously influenced to think the more beautifully crafted, expensive cable will sound better. I think this is very tough (not impossible, but tough)to fully avoid consistently. By subtle audio changes, I am referring to changes that would be difficult to notice witout very careful A-B evaluation. I am not saying that different power cables do not make a difference in sound, I am still uncertain on this topic. From the type of response we are getting in this thread, so far, it looks like the opinion on this topic among Audiogon members is about split 50/50. Psycho-acoustic influence does exist. |
Elizabeth,
I think almost everyone who bothers to get involved in the Audiogon forum is an experienced hi end audio lover. Why else would they be here? Most of us in this forum are at least fairly experiemced in hi end audio. We are all here because it is fun. I completely agree, you must make up your own mind, you must please yourself. Above all else, in hi end audio, this concept is most important. But, there are a lot of tricks amd lots to learn in this great hobby. I have been buying hi end audio equipment for over 30 years. I love the music, I love great sound, I love great equipment. The learning never stops. For me, the upgrades have been gradual and continuous. We can learn from each other. If I can pick up one or two ideas to help improve my system through these forums, that would be great. If I can help others, that would be nice as well. Most importantly, this is fun. This is my hobby, I do not make a living with high end audio. I feel fortunate that I am able to buy what I want when I want it. That wasn't always the case. When I started out, every penny counted. So I know what it is like to squueeze every cent for the best sound reproduction possible. Like everyone else in this forum, I am looking for ways to improve the sound of my system, and maybe share my knowledge and ideas with others as well.
Regarding Placebo, we all need to know that it exists, it is real; that ia all. Psycho-acoustics is a strange thing. Your mind can play tricks on you, especially with subtle audio 'changes'. This is real and it is never discussed in any of the audio magazines. If you need to strain to hear a change, it may not be a change (or a significantly improved change) after all. Very interesting.
Thank you for your opinions/advice! |
Hi Elizabeth,
You just touched on another major controversial topic in our great hobby. 'Break in'. Breakin of cable, amps, pre-amps, CD palyers, etc., is it real, placebo, or is it a miyth? My Esoteric K01 sounded great, brand nes, cold, right out of the box. I have been told that the K01 will benefit form 500 hours of break-in. I have been using the IsoTek/Esoteric break-in disc for 4 weeks. I have used the Purist audio break-in disc for many years off and on. Does it make a difference? In all honesty I am not sure that I can detect a difference. As a rule of thumb, when I say that I am uncertain if it makes a difference, it is minimally consequential and possibly unconsequential. If it helps it is extremely subtle and gradual. Is it placebo or is it real? I am uncertain. I feel warm up for 30 to 60 minutes helps a lot, especially with amps/pre-amps (I have a lot of Krell equipment), I am not sure if break-in (500 hours)truly improves sound significantly (to my ears therefore it is inconsequential). I know Isotek, Purist audio, Esoteric, many other companies and many reviewers feel break-in makes a significant improvement. Although I have tried very hard to understand and detect a difference with extended break-in, in all honesty, don't know if I can detect an improvement. This issue is a controversial, subjective and very difficult to prove. It would be an interesting thread topic. Personally, I don;t worry about it. I do use break-in discs but I am uncertain if they help to improve sound significanbtly. |
P.S. Elizabeth,
I agree with you, if it doen't sound to your liking right away (or within a few hours), it will never sound good; get rid of it. |
Hotmailjbc,
Your porch reponded better (better steering, better shocks, better tires, better acceleration, better transmission, better shift, better seats, etc); it performed better at 100 MPH than the Vega(and an any other velocity) than the Vega. So, of course you liked it better.
Your stereo will sound better with the lights dimmed or with the lights out (more musical, better 3d sound staging, better base, smoother and sweeter treble, better low level detail).Try it out tonight. Isn't that amazing! Is it real or is it placebo? It is a psycho-acoustic effect, and it affects all of us. Reviewers/magazines never discuss these issues. |
If you haven't tested the cable change blindly, how do you know for sure?
I am not saying cable changes have no effect on the sound, I have never tested cables, so I am still uncertain. But, there is a significant psychological component which can be eliminated only with blind testing.
Let's focus on power cables for now to simplify the discussion. We all have to purchase interconnects and speaker cable since these items do not come with the audio gear. I think anyone who buys high end equipment (probably everyone on Audiogon) will purchase brand name well regarded interconnects and speaker cable. No one is going to buy fine expensive electronics and install lamp cord. Whether or not we are certain of how the cable effects the sound, I believe most of us, probably all of us, including myself, will purchase decent brand name cable with our valued gear (just in case it makes a difference). However, all electronic gear comes with power cable. Buying an expensive after market power cable is elective and not required. Some of these beautiful brand name power cables cost thousands of dollars (Esoteric Mexcel, Krell for example).
Question: Which of the two changes imporoves the sound of your system more:
1)Changing your stock power cables to an expensive high end after market power cable
2)Using the stock power cable and turning out the lights
I bet turning out the lights improves the sound just as much if not more than changing the power cables. Turning out the lights does nothing to the performance of your system, it is a psycho-acoustic effect.
How do you know that the improved sound that you perceive by installing the beautifully crafted, expensive, highly regarded after market brand name power cable is not psychological (placebo) unless you can identify it blindly?
I find testing/comparing speaker cable a pain in the neck. Lots of disconnecting, reconnecting, moving things, it is an effort. Testing power cables is less work, much easier to switch. I will do some testing within the next couple of weeks.
Just food for thought. |
Pcoombs
I don't understand how your cd comparison works. Please describe it step by step. |
Hotmailjbc
I am curious, how would you answer the two questions? |
I expect delivery of some new equipment tomorrow. My dealer promised to bring some high end power cables to audiition.
I have all high end equipment, including speaker cables and interconnects. All of my amps (All Krell evo e series for home theater and stereo music) are on seperate dedicated 115 amp lines. I never bothered upgrading my stock power cables, and I have never compared power cables, it has simply not been a priority for me. However, I am curious to see if changing power cables will make an audible improvement (to my ears). My plan is very simple, I will try differenct cables, short term and long term (a few days). I will try some blind and nonblind switching (with help from my wife). That is the best I can do. I have no recording equipment, so I will not do anything elaborate with reordings as mentioned above. I doubt recording with a microphpone would help since recording in this manner will add conditions which will affect sound.
I must admit, I do have a pre-audition opinion. I have been buying high end audio equipment since the early 1970's. Some changes are exremely subtle, some are very dramatic and rewarding. I think the change will be so subtle that I will have to really strain to identify the improvment. This would leave me uncertain (which I consider inconsequential). I will upgrade if I can detect an improvement. I hope it does make my equipment sound better. Like everyone else here on Audiogon, I am constantly looking for ways to improve the sound of my equipment. I will approach this with an open mind. We have had a very mixed response on this thread. Some people feel very strongly that power cables make an obvious improvement, others think it makes no difference. For me, this is all fun. The audition may take me a couple of weeks. I will let you know. |
Bruce,
I agree about the noise problem in electrical line. This is one advantage of dedicated lines for power amps. It eliminates noise and draw from household electronic appliances. It provides cleaner power and more stable power. |
GSSELF
Power cable audition update:
My dealer delivered only one of two amps ordered, one is still on back order. He did not bring power cables, he said next time he will bring some.
He feels better power cables have more of an effect on sound than interconnects and speaker cable. He said the better power cables have improved inductance is more efficient in delivery of elctricity (current?) to the amps. I have known him for many years. He has always been extremely honest, never steered me wrong.
It may be a few weeks before I am able to audition the cables. |
That is very interesting Craig. Maybe you should market your new PC. |
I also have a lot of Kimber select cable (speaker/interconnect). My dealer has mentioned to me that Kimber has outlets that they/he feel improve the performance of the power cord/system. I am still waiting for my new power amp delivery and power cable audition. It could be a few more weeks before delivery. |
SGR,
Good advice.
The people at Nordost strongly advocate using one brand for cables (they call it the cable loom; how elegant). They even state that utilizing a single brand/type of cabling can be more important than the brand ustilized. |
