One of the all time great automotive engineers, Norbert Singer, was a key player in every one of the 16 Porsche LeMans victories from 1970 to 1998. His dominance was such that at one point Porsche had won LeMans more than all other marques combined. This was all accomplished by building on the already solid foundation of Porsche production models. The air cooled flat 12 in the 917 was really two flat sixes combined to make 12. This car so dominated motorsport the rules had to be changed to stop it!
So Norbert Singer modified Porsche production technology to extract the absolute most for racing. His legacy is today’s Singer Vehicle Designhttps://singervehicledesign.com Norbert doesn’t make for a very good car name so they called it Singer. What is a Singer? It is a modified Porsche. It is in essence a hot rod. What Norbert Singer did was make the most hot rod racing Porsche. What Singer does is take that to the next level, capturing every aspect of Porsche right down to excellence of design and aesthetics.
I am not anywhere near the level of Singer. But that is the spirit of what we are doing: taking an already world-class design and hot-rodding it to be even better. Well, better for me anyway- or so we hope!
The early modders started with substituting off the shelf parts to get more power or less weight. That is pretty much all we are doing here. Would be cool if some day people are doing this with a lot more sophisticated approach. Maybe they will. Maybe even I will. For now though we have the current crossover project.
My approach is pretty simple: better parts sound better.
This lesson was learned back in the late 90’s with Linaeum Model 10 speakers. The designer had a new tweeter and told me how to modify the crossover for it. Simple mod, one cap, one resistor. Bought the parts from Radio Shack, put it together, sounded like crap. Absolute horrid crap! Called him up, he said those parts are crap. Said Musicap, Vishay. But they measure the same? Just do it. I did. It worked. Even though they measure exactly the same, the sound difference is off the charts.
Even though they measure exactly the same. There is a lesson here. For those willing to learn.
So this is the essence of it: Eric Alexander has made a speaker the equivalent of a Porsche 911. Even better: an affordable Porsche 911! But after a while with my 911, after learning what makes it drive and feel the way it does, it was only natural to change the shocks and torsion bar and other items to bring out even more of what I like so much about the 911.
That is what we are doing here. Hot-rodding a speaker. Thank you Rick for the metaphor!
Was just being alliterative with the title but this really is mega! I've taken my whole panel apart, ripped out and hauled AC to cryo then put it all back, and a slew more big projects but this easily was the most I have ever done in one day. One 15 hour day, 6AM to 9PM! Twisting and soldering all those hard to get at connections- it doesn't put itself together let me tell you!
Even after all that it is not done, not really. But more than enough to use and I did, and you all expect more from me than emoticons so what am I hearing?
It was a shock at first but having two days and two nights sleep to let it all sink in... The first thing to hit me was a big improvement in instrumental tone and texture. Been playing Tracy Chapman a lot lately and so put that on first. There's a lot of deep bass and a huge amount of all different kinds of percussion- bongo's, drums - just a slew of different things, and they all sound so much very different, individual, unique, and separate in their own little space, it was blowing me away how the caps and stuff could be so good so fast. It was only after a nights sleep that I realized of course! Because: Townshend Pods! BDR! These things need zero warmup or break-in. They do this right from the get-go.
Sure enough, all aspects of the presentation most affected by vibration control shot straight up to a new higher level and stayed there. This was a huge part of my initial impressions. How much better it could be externally mounted I can only imagine but Pods and BDR made a huge improvement without having to go to all that trouble.
As for the crossover itself, I'm hearing tremendous improvement in detail, dynamics, and imaging. The reason for all the cutesy emoticons is this all improved so much it really is hard to find words to do it justice. This is just a huge improvement, every bit as big as going from my old phono stage to Herron, or heck even from Talon Khorus to Tekton Moab.
There were a few moments early on when there was some pretty harsh glare or ringing, almost enough to get me worried. But it seemed to be one of those new parts settling down kind of things and sure enough it was less and less as time went on and pretty much totally disappeared by the end of the night.
Which was a very long night indeed. After working on this thing from 6 to 9 I was then up spinning vinyl until about 2AM. Found myself reaching for Hot Stampers early on. Very unlike myself. Never play these until the system is good and ready, and this had been off 2 days and barely warmed up. Still, the improvement was so great it sounded better than ever even pretty much stone cold. Amazing.
I took the time to disassemble and measure all the individual values of the stock crossover and replace only with same value parts, as I did not want to make any changes to any of the magic Eric engineered into Moab. Just wanted to help the magic get out, so to speak. That seems to be the case as record after record takes on a life all its own. It sounds like I nailed the tonal balance Eric built into them, which is good, I did not want to change that at all. Doesn't sound like I did.
One reason I think the impact is so staggering, my system is tweaked to the max. The whole electrical panel is tweaked and treated. Every foot of wire from the panel to the room is cryo'd and coated and massaged. Inside the room the wire is all superb M101 Nova and Supernova and Townshend F1. Everything from the source to the amp to the speaker cables is tweaked out on BDR, Pods, and more. The signal is plush and pampered, until it gets to the Moab where it runs straight into ordinary wire and a bunch of parts on cardboard. Well not really cardboard, but whatever you call 1/8" thick MDF. Might as well be.
Yes, I know, the wire is still left. Always another project. Working on it, okay? Sheesh.
That one is where we really start to get into Eric's magic. Lotta drivers, lotta wires, and not at all clear where they go. Tracing it all out in order to figure out what might be the best geometry is no small task. For sure it will be another huge upgrade- if done right. For sure it will be another huge effort- in order to do it right.
This for now is enough. More than enough. Wow I wish you guys could hear what I'm hearing!
nmmusicman- Caps and stuff are clearly and rapidly getting smoother, more relaxed, and more effortlessly detailed. The presentation changes a lot with the recording and can go from being further back and deeper to you are in it envelopment. So sometimes want to say it is a little more recessed or deeper, other times a little more forward. Last night playing Springsteen The Ghost of Tom Joad the Boss was a little further away but with much more realism, his guitar just eerily real, but then as the song goes along the accompanying instrumentals and volume grows and it feels the whole stage expands and envelops me. Some records like Tom Petty Southern Accents are like this from the beginning. So it feels like getting just a whole lot more of whatever is on the vinyl. And yeah it just keeps getting better and better. Early days still. Very promising.
nares- Yes indeed. Greatest effort yet. Probably biggest payoff yet too though. Tremendous sense of satisfaction.
klh007- Kemper, you were one of the key people motivating me to get Moab in the first place. So thanks for that! This was a huge project but more than half the time went into figuring out what parts to get and how to put them together. Now having done that you could copy my parts and put them on MDF on Nobsound springs and have a huge share of the improvement for a good bit less trouble and expense. Just sayin'. Anything you want to do, happy to help. Repay the favor so to speak.
parker65310- Not that I don't want to help, but you need to understand I know zip about crossover design. All I know is how the parts work, and even that on only a general level. All I did was swap out one cap for another better one, precisely because like you I did not want to lose the Tekton sound, just get more of it. Mission accomplished! To do this I mostly studied this http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html in order to choose the right caps. Study this info, look up the caps prices on-line, figure out what suits your budget and space requirements.
What little I do know, caps roll off or attenuate low frequencies. Changing the cap value, different microfarads, moves the crossover points. You absolutely do not want to do this! Better caps are always physically larger, they take up more space and may not fit. But while physically larger they must be the same value or you will change the sound you like so much. PM if you have questions, but honestly there are way more experienced guys than me.
ricevs- Interesting point about inductors. Eric went outside to inside. Not that that means anything. In my case, to go inside to outside would be very hard to do without adding wire. As it stands everything is soldered lead to lead. It is interesting though because it raises the question of directionality. I wonder if the results you got could simply be due to directionality?
The 12AWG Goertz coils in mine are wound so tight they feel like a chunk of solid copper. Then I put a strip of fO.q tape, a bit of Herbies Grungebuster, and a strip of Mat, and wrapped the whole thing tight as I could with packing tape. So yeah I paid attention to microphonics. Thanks!
I did consider those Mundorf inductors. Also Duelund. Also Erse, which I really wanted but they stopped making. Oh well it all worked out beautifully in the end!
@ ricevs - 9AWG (NINE) now that’s an inductor. Thanks for sharing, very cool. And yes microphonics are a real issue. After mine were wound, I dipped them in a winding varnish that was tested out for it’s sonic characteristics. Next time will be ribbon inductors, and Path resistors.
When you do your outboard crossovers, do you also run separate speaker cables to each circuit, so as to not share signal or potential from ground? Run them directly to the output of the amp, my old boss did that on a limited run of outboard crossovers and it worked very well. Of course, he makes ribbon speaker cables, and internal speaker wire, the crossovers have two full runs of 2+" wide ribbon 2.5 metres long. It gets expensive at that point.
A question for MC or anyone...if you had an opportunity to replace the drivers or all of the components you worked on what would you do if money was not an object. Where do you think the biggest bang for the buck is between the drivers and the caps/ resistors etc?
I got a big jump in resolution going from the stock spikes on the outboard crossovers to the Walker Audio Resonance control kit under each crossover. The solidity of each instrument in space is spooky and a real good recording just hangs in the air. Cymbal attacks are heavy and the weight of each cymbal can be clearly heard. Of course, average recordings are just as fun!
@willgolf - There's a lot of unknowns in swapping out drivers in a loudspeaker. First thing I'd consider is the fact a decent designer is going to choose drivers that compliment each other in a multi driver loudspeaker. Crossover points, anti-phase, and the resulting frequency response are chosen and then developed after listening based upon the characteristics of the drivers chosen in the concept stage of the speaker design.
Can a driver swap out result in a better sounding loudspeaker, yes, and depending on how well integrated that driver is in the overall design, no, not at all.
There's a few unknowns that affect the final result, cabinet design (volume for one), port design (if it uses porting), impedance and also the response and efficiency of the driver. It can be like playing with a Rubiks cube, you may get one thing better and three things not.
I do know of a speaker designer who can swap out drivers, selecting replacement drivers suitable for the volume of the cabinet, for example, then completely redesign the crossover to suit. This takes a lot of time to do correctly, and you are essentially creating a entirely new loudspeaker, with different crossover points, and change the balance of energies to try and bring the response curve into something coherent.
Researching a replacement driver with very similar measurements and characteristics, could help you find one not requiring changes to the crossover to get a better sound, I'm just saying that simply buying a better driver doesn't mean an increase in performance.
There is a synergy on how multiple driver speakers interact, and the crossover and cabinet are hugely determining factors. Having measurements of the driver you're wanting to replace, certainly moves you closer to finding a replacement, it's a starting point.
A question for MC or anyone...if you had an opportunity to replace the drivers or all of the components you worked on what would you do if money was not an object. Where do you think the biggest bang for the buck is between the drivers and the caps/ resistors etc?
If money was not an object I would call Eric say build me your SOTA Assault Speakers, stat, only make em all Duelund and Path, designed with outboard crossovers and hang on I will be sending you some stuff to go in there. I would call Max say build Eric some F1wires for internal. I would call Krissy say you want to see Utah? Cuz I am flying you out to paint and stuff just load em up, Quantum those suckers to the next dimension. Oh and then you are going on to Texas where you do the same with Dave, since money is no object he will be building me some sweet Raven mono blocks to be run off the Allegri Reference pre-amp Max will be making. Which you can then fly to the UK to massage, or come do your magic here, your call, just so I get my Krissy magic.
This was a huge bang for the buck. It was however a lot of work. No doubt about it. For less effort but a lot more money all Be drivers would be a no-brainer. But I like Plan A a lot better.
On my Alon Lotus SE mk ll speakers, I can swap between an AlNiCo magnet and a ceramic magnet on the dipole tweeter in a matter of minutes and the results are not subtle! The AlNiCo is much more refined with better definition and weight to instruments and overtones. The ceramic is still very good but lacks definition when compared to the AlNiCo. I would love to get the AlNiCo magnet woofers but sadly they are as rare as hens teeth and not many were made. One could choose between a 4 ohm woofer or 14 ohm woofer at time of purchase. I have both and the 14 ohm woofer is more defined and mates better with tube amps. The 4 ohm woofer mates up with SS amps and has great bass slam but lacks just a bit of definition IMO.
Just changing drivers does not work completely, and most likely some values in the crossover have to be changed and that would require the help of the manufacturer. In speakers with multiple drivers it is a task.
Put it this way. I was just about done researching and ready to buy Ulf when I called teajay, because he bought Ulf and had heard Moab in his system for comparison. He immediately said don’t, get Moab, because Ulf cost twice as much and you will never hear the difference.
Okay. So now you can say teajay doesn’t know what he’s talking about I guess. Or you can say of course there’e a difference and he can hear it but doesn’t think many others will. Or you can say there’s a difference but only one big enough to hear if side by side, you would never know otherwise and you will never do that so save your money.
You can say any or all of that and have a pretty good point.
What you cannot do is say that about the difference between stock Moabs and mine. No way. Unless I am very much mistaken and Eric has taken to using Duelund bypass caps, ribbon inductors and Path Audio resistors, there is no way. Mine will walk all over anything I could buy for the money, Tekton or otherwise.
It is just not even close.
Now the thing of it is, this should not come as a surprise to anyone who knows anything about manufacturing and/or modding. I’ve been doing stuff like this since the 1990’s. Swapped out cheap parts for expensive high quality parts in amps, speakers, and CD players many times. Each and every time with so much improvement it was like a whole new component. Always wound up with far better performance than if I had sold what I had and bought better.
That is why I go to all the time and trouble. Even if I add in my x-ray tech rate of pay for the time it took me to put this thing together, and value my labor at that, it is still killer value.
Which is illogical BS, by the way, and flips reality on its head. Reality is the reason we as modders are able to have such fantastic shoot above their weight systems is we don’t have to turn a profit. We just have to make something sound better than we know we could buy for the same money. This we find to be so stinking easy you would not believe.
That is why I do it. Come and listen. You will see.
@willgolf - all this attitude and all you did is ask a simple question, right?
It makes sense, that if you already knew that it was such a chore and not a simple thing, you wouldn't have asked, and so you're discovery mode. Sorry to be such a wet blanket, I was trying to inform you as best I could, and without much information about the particular driver you want to swap out.
It is a valid question you asked, one I have asked in the past too.
It is possible to get a positive result by swapping out drivers, that potential changes proportionally to how well the crossover is designed for the existing ones, and how common the characteristics of your driver to others out there.
Can you tell me what the driver is that you want to try and upgrade?
My test for my many mechanical grounded platforms under everything was to have a friend stop over and play some tunes. While that was going on I had my 2 grandsons use their pogo sticks on my carpet over concrete floor and jump around.. My friend and I could nor hear nor feel the influence of the pogo stick on vibrational transfer thru any grounded device. Which is everything even the Argent Room Lenses. Tom
Well I did allow for the use of springs in my audio room just this 1 time. On the pogo sticks but they left when the boys did. Oh I forgot to mention the 3 inside my Linn but it is on a grounded Sistrum rack apparently undisturbed by pogo sticks. Tom
Why not just get better speakers? For all time and labor costs, I would think it would be worth it.
I asked the question about changing drivers because I have the opportunity to upgrade the four drivers. Let me just state that my Viking Acoustic Grande Voix dual horn speakers are phenomenal. I really don't need to change anything. However, David Counsell, the designer and speaker builder from Viking Acoustics told me about a German driver that would take my speakers to even another level. Further, he would do all of the work at my house (it is a 7 hour drive).
It would cost me over $5k to have the work completed. My speakers already have an 18" woofer so I get plenty of bass. The new drivers are spruce wood with ultra detail and more air. He would use different caps. The end result would be better detail and more output in the mid range and the highs and a 5% reduction in bass which will balance the speakers better.
I am not saying I am going to do it. I am functionally blind so I can't do anything that Chuck is doing to his Moabs. I just threw it out there because I have not seen any threads on changing drivers. Hope that clarifies why I asked and thanks for the feedback.
Ahh, good, thanks! I thought you were talking the usual general hypothetical sense. Instead this is one very particular case and from what you said I would have to say since you already know you love what you have, and therefore trust the guy who built them, then I have to say go for it.
What I did was basically what little I can do knowing what little I do know. If I could instead call up Eric and he said well you know for that money I could upgrade all your drivers and part of the crossover and in a way that sounds better than anything you could ever do yourself, well then I would have to believe him and go for it. Replace Eric with David, and there you go.
Either of these guys, since they work daily with their stuff they know it inside out. Some guy like me, I don't have time or money to figure out which cap or whatever in the crossover is so essential it is worth the very best, and which it is almost unnoticeable to sacrifice a little. So in my case it makes total sense to just overkill the whole thing, as that is cheaper than doing it five times trying to find the most cost-effective solution! In your case though you have the designer saying it is totally better. I would trust him a lot more than I would trust me. 😂😉
@
willgolf
- well that's an entirely different proposition than the one I presumed you meant. And yes changing both the crossover and the drivers by someone who actually has the knowledge to do so correctly, makes more sense.
If you do choose to do the upgrade, and use a different capacitor, and you're feeling like experimenting?? Might I suggest you get yourself a pair or two of the Duelund silver foil bypass capacitors, and have him wrap one full turn of the legs of the replacement caps and listen, if you like it, leave it in, if not he can easily remove them. Or you could simply cut them off after run in, the wire is thin. Chances are very good that the silver foil bypass caps will give it a positive bump in performance. Google this for yourself, this is truly worthy of some due diligence.
He only will need to change the capacitors, and no resistor values? Depending on the space you have on the crossover board, you might ask him to swap out your resistors for Path Audio resistors of the same value. They are universally tested as being the best sounding (at the moment) and introducing the least distortion of any crossover suitable resistors.
As you will already have a skilled tradesman there working on the speakers, akin to having a motor pulled apart. The relatively minimal amount of extra work compared to removing the crossover and drivers, would not be unlike putting in a performance part in an already opened up motor.
For that kind of outlay, you could maximise your upgrade while he's already pulled it down, and is modifying the crossover. Run it by him, he can decline, or he might give you a significantly better result, maximising your performance / dollar. I almost wrote bang for buck, but your speakers aren't bangers.
Yeah and thanks for sending that one to me Rick, that is all it took to convince me to go for Path Audio resistors. All the glowing accolades in that review, are what I am hearing now. Truly exceptional performance. Of course I did them all at once, even the shunt resistors are all Path Audio. And of course I did the Duelund JDM Silver bypass caps too. Doing everything all at once means no way to separate out what the resistors are doing from the caps and inductors- and BDR, and Pods! A lot of these contribute to the exceptionally low noise floor, incredible dynamics, and fantastic subtle detail I am hearing now.
A local audio bud Steve was over recently and at one point said incredulously, "How much more detail can you get??!" That was before! What it sounds like now with this crossover upgrade, the old sound was thick, muddled, blurred, damped, grainy. The comment in the resistor shootout about hearing really low level detail, totally true. There's stuff now so obvious it is like where was that before?!?!
What was that I was playing last night, really wish, oh yeah Steely Dan Aja! Forget which song it was, but there's what I thought was a xylophone or something, only it had a richer texture to it. That was before. Last night it was startling to hear it is not one but TWO very different instruments, one of which has a really distinct sharp attack almost like little pieces of wind chimes tinkling. Thought I knew what was on there. Not even. Freaking blew me away!
If it was me willgolf, I would see if he is willing to add Duelund JDM Silver bypass caps to whatever he does (they are only .01uF and so can be added to any cap no problem) and see if he will swap out whatever resistors are in there now for Path Audio.
I would hope that speakers at that level would be using parts at this level. But hope, I said. Not expect. Would be interesting to know what is in there.
I have always added off the shelf stuff to improve my vehicles: Pipes, ignitions, supercharger (S2000), and suspension improvements. For somewhat normal use, I do not believe in touching the inside of an engine. Exceptions have been smoothing out intake and exhaust castings (esp. FZR1000), and the porting of two strokes. My S2000 is the strangest engine I have had. It has no power below 4500 rpm, just like my prior 1986 GSX-R750, but really wails between 7200 and 9200. My office used to be across the lake/pond from Champion Porsche. I'll never forget how upset these guys were when they had to skip LeMans the first time; almost as much as when the local Flea Market/Drive In Movie guy had the very first totally factory built, actual 917 in the world. Yes, Preston Henn, the guy who was able to skirt the heat the Whittington Brothers got, because they did not have any proof of legitimate income as to how they supported their racing... Not to mention Nobby Clark's stories about Don Aronow. Good Times, all!
@willgolf
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I'm a fan of Duelund, however I've never played with power cords with their conductors. So far their caps are pretty hard to beat (but my goodness they aren't exactly cheap, or cheaply made either).
I just came back after looking at your system page... That's one huge fish tank mate! (hehehehehe)
And now I really have a connection why you might be interested in the Moab build - I'm smarter than I look (apparently, that's not much of a boast).
I'd be interested if you do the upgrade, and what you do. If you do start a thread about it, please be sure and make sure I know about it?
One thing I noticed with my crossover upgrade, just a huge drop in the noise floor. To anyone who has been here they will probably get a good laugh out of that, or at least a chortle snort. Because my system is far from silent. I am one of these guys when I read people fret and worry about hearing something with their ear to the tweeter, when mine you can clearly hear no problem from the sweet spot. I would hesitate to say noisy as hell, but not by much.
Which makes this strange, but true. Huge drop in the noise floor. Huge improvement in resolution of fine detail down to below a level I would have thought possible. Given all the system noise, I mean. But there it is.
The reason I mention it is willgolf, you have those ultra high-sensitivity highly resolving speakers. I would think with some of these upgrades the difference might be even greater than in mine. Hard to say of course. Could well be you are coming from a higher level to begin with. Even so.....
MC - I was one of those GUYS who would put their ear up to the 98db speakers and hear a slight hum and get pissed. Now, After changing all of my cables, Power cords, adding the Lampi Pacific it is pretty much quiet.
I wonder, can you really compare a $7-8k speakers to a $35-40k speaker?
Air core coils will sound best if you have the signal enter the inside of the foil and exit the outside.....either towards the driver or towards ground.
I must apologise, I had it confirmed some time ago that you are absolutely correct. I did say mine was wired the other way, which may imply my way is better - it is not, your information is correct.
I did find out you are correct at least a week ago. Anyone reading this in the future, follow his good info please. I'm posting this to avoid any confusion, I may have created in my reply.
Thank you ricevs, for bringing that to my attention.
Originals are still here. The way I did this there was never any fear of screwing it up, I was way too methodical and redundant. Main concern was getting it back in there without snagging a wire and not being able to see. If you saw how it is in there now you would not believe it. There's pictures on my system page but not of the crossover mounted in place. I don't know how it could be any tighter and still fit.
When Danny Richie builds replacement crossovers for loudspeakers sent him, he sometimes mounts the new x/o board on the outside of the rear of the enclosure, rather than back inside. That is in some instances necessitated by the much larger size of the upgraded parts (air-core inductors in place of iron-core, film capacitors in place of electrolytic, etc.), and the new x/o board is too big to fit in the enclosure.
Some builders of GR Research loudspeakers---many of which are open baffle in design---do so with the x/o board separated from the enclosure or ob structure with an isolation product, to keep the board free of vibrations.
Yes the crossover got physically roughly 8X the size, if you go by volume. And I totally know about outboarding. Rick was pushing it hard. And really, I wanted to do it. Why I did not, it was a simple calculation of risk/work/reward. Moabs have a really complicated mess of wires to run. It is a lot of work running those wires, and I am not about to undertake that "just" to move the crossover outboard. A project that involved, it is not that much more work to replace all the internal wire. But I was nowhere near knowing what wire would be equivalent to as high a quality as I want. I mean I know what I want, but to get them to build it....
Anyway it is a really good project, or will be, some day.... meantime, BDR, Pods, Mats, is pretty sweet doncha think? I mean, look at the last couple pics. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 😍
By the way, my turntables/speakers/electronics compress the Townshend Seismic Pods under them to about exactly the same degree as yours do under yours. I have found I prefer using slightly lower weight rated Pods than Townshend recommends, a little "softer". John's advice to me was, in cases where a component's weight was right on the border where the weight-rating of two Pods intersected---to go with the higher-rated Pod. I have found the opposite to work more to my liking.
It all depends on your point of view. Stiffer in general leans a bit lively, softer a bit more full and round. Something like that. You can also do stuff like mix them up, use three vs four, augment with one Nobsound, etc. They are so flexible, I was even able to use them under my crossover! Drilled and tapped the Shelf, threaded studs fasten the Pods to the crossover.
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