Theoretically, you are setting up a system with three different resonant characteristics, which could either be inaudible or cause some issues due to a negative effect on the constancy of belt tension. (One platform in vibration or resonating while another is not, etc.) I would be interested to know, theoretically, why 3 is better than one. I am not claiming I know what's best, just interested in the theory. |
Love the moniker,11flat6. |
Peterayer, in Tuchan's set up there are 3 separate fixed platforms sitting on top of a larger shelf. There's no movement in any direction unless intentional. Quality 4 point active air bladders will eliminate the issue you mention. Even then the affect of passive one loosing moderate level depends on the turntable setup or the equipment that's sitting on top of it. Personally I'm not a fan of air platforms under high mass tables, but that's relative to my equipment and tastes. |
11flat6, Yes, I agree.
Dkarmeli, yes, I agree with this as long as relative horizontal movement is fixed. However, I was more concerned with relative vertical movement between the three and this would be dependent on the type of isolation and if it moves in the vertical plane. I'm most familiar with Vibraplane platforms and if one deflates at a different rate than the others, problems with belt tension and thus speed may occur.
I suppose if the movement is slight and only in the vertical direction and the belt/thread has the room to move up or down the platter, but the horizontal distance remains the same, there would not be any problems. |
Peterayer, what Tuchan is suggesting is simply a fixed separate platform on the same plane under each component instead of one large one for all three. Setting up of belt tension is no different from them sitting on one platform. Theoretically this way you're isolating each of the 3 from interacting with the others mechanical resonance. |
hi Peterayer, the same case (ie. speed instability) could technically be made if a turntable's motor, table & flywheel all rested on a single platform or shelf.
it's important to consider if motor, table, flywheel, & platform(s) beneath turntable & associated components are rigid or suspended. |
Thuchan, you recommend three separate isolation platforms for motor, table and flywheel. How can one control relative movement between the three? If they move differently, would that not effect belt/thread tension and thus effect speed?
The Timeline database thread discusses the early SOTA tables that have the motor mounted on a sub chassis which is separate from the platter, so they could move relative to each other and according to some users, this caused speed issues. |
Hi 11flat6,
no problem with reviving. I am convinced that you can improve and stabilize a good turntable by the following measurements:
1) ensure you have separate isolation platforms for motor, table and flywheel
2) use a motor and pully which are in good condition and work absolutely stable (in case of older Micro designs maybe check, lubricate, exchange the transformer and/or capacitors)
3) better go for belts than threads. ensure the belts have the same distance and measure the belt tension. should be the same value for both belts
4) the VPI double motor driven by the SDS is one of the most precise and stable motor/steering combinations on the market today |
hi Thuchan, sorry to revive an old thread. was wondering if I could get your thoughts/opinions on various flywheel configurations with Micro SX tables.
I have a Micro HS-80 flywheel & agree this helps "stabilize the sound picture". my platter speed has always been consistent (& without noticeable fluctuation) when used with Micro RY5500 motor & Micro Kevlar or silk thread.
do you think the benefits of replacing the Micro RY5500 motor with VPI SDS/dual-motor flywheel is primarily due to its built-in flywheel? (just as Micro SZ-1M flywheel-motor used for Micro SZ-1T)
do you think VPI SDS/dual-motor flywheel results in HS-80 flywheel becoming redundant, or do you find there's even more stability when both flywheels are employed?
have you experimented with different belts, threads, etc. between your VPI flywheel & Micro platter?
also interested to hear your comparisons of SX-8000 II vs. SZ-1T. |
Downunder,
I found a friend who has both machines. I will visit him in the next year. do report on my findings. promise!
have a good new year! |
Thuchan, did you ever find a SZ-1? |
Hiho, thanks for your suggestion.I am pretty fine with my VPI drives in addition to the MS drive. If you look at the VPI SDS you see that this is a masterpiece of Harry Weissfield. Most people underrate the SDS, a very cleverly combined steering wheel from many different excellent parts.
I know from audiophiles who build a TT around two SDS flying wheels. I now can imagine what kind of quality in motor precision they get. |
Thuchan, try using a quality direct-drive turntable, like a Technics SL-M3, to drive your Micro-Seiki via VHS tape and see what happens. You may like it. |
I have now testet the Micro Seiki HS-80 - which is a passive flywheel- on my MS 8000 and the VPI SDS/dual motor flywheel - which is an active flywheel - on my MS 8000 II.
Both flywheels stabilize the sound picture but the VPI combo is some kind of a dream. The sound gets more precise, more solid. The music plays like on perfect stage.
I am now considering using two VPI combos (2 x SDS, 2x dual motor flywheel) at each side of my MS 8000. The HS-80 I will put at the right side of my MS 8000 II.
What I learned is that most motors of the vintage area are ok (basically a simple design) but not as good as well thought solutions like the VPI. You may improve your turntabe by 1.) using a flywheel and 2.) using an active version. |
Hi Boidos, I am running the vacuum platter on my SX 8000 II, which is of course an inbuild function, as well as a Micro cu-180 mat on my Nakamichi TX-1000. If you have the option for the vacuum and it is working without big noise and does its job properly i would compare it with the sound quality provided by the cu-180 mat (with small textil layer on top). Just test the sound quality and decide for the better one. If you have the original Micro cu-180 mat it should provide a good sound. |
Hi..I am running a basic mid range Micro Seiki BL-99v with a fr-64fx. Do people recommend using the vacuum platter, or a cu-180 mat with a leather cover and a st-10 stabilizer instead?
thanks! |
active vs. passive flywheel ??
as I am very happy with the VPI SDS active flywheel - the technology used by VPI inside the SDS is excellent and also the metal parts are drilled precisely - I will now test another flywheel, a passive one.
I will come back with the results and a picture of the flywheel setting very soon. |
Axel, I never wanted to use this word but now I will use it in a negation form to answer your question. The flywheel in this environment is definitely no BS ! |
Thuchan,
>>> good friend of mine also adds a flywheel to his Micro, he visited me...<<<
And, so what happened?
Does it make THE difference or is FM_login's take closer then DerTonarms'?
There were BIG differences of opinion...
SME's (like mine) use some pretty involved speed control box which one might argue obviates ~ 'fly-wheeling'.
As said: ... accentuate the positive... :-) |
Axel, no Micro and no flywheel?? unbelievable. you have to change this immediately. I am eager to hear how you like the flywheel and if you hear a difference...
a good friend of mine also adds a flywheel to his Micro, he visited me... |
I already have it, thank you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear friends: Any one of you know which is the Fm login site?
Thank you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
As the FM man said:
...if someone will bring a good flywheel to me I might put it on use, otherwise it will be as is: with no bass, collapsed soundstage, with no inner-details and a lot of background noise
:-)
I do start to understand what it feels like having no Micro AND no flywheel!
Is why we might again concentrate on carts?
Or as Dr. John has it:
You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with mister in between... :-)
A. |
Herr Tonarm,
aber jetzt, ich darf doch wohl bitten!
Don't you go and close the door on the next most fun item to play with. In any case since I have been switching and swapping carts quite a bit of late - I dare say there is some BIG, MAYOR,...
Well anyway I guess it was a joke of your's after all, else I might be just thinking of a place called Garbersee, ja?! :-) |
I thought that statement referred to Performance being better Live that from Playback system?
Anyway, Raul I think you might have an interesting discussion with Fm_login regards step-ups pros and cons. |
Dear Fm login: Sorry for my ignorance: which is your site address?, thank you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
******On the more serious side, I got some other then comic relieve hearing about the function and performance of tt's: >> best quality PERFORMANCE has absolutely nothing to do with a topology of quality of your or my turntable. << ****
Well - having learned this now, we can rest indeed in peace and concentrate on cartridges and tonearms....
Or maybe "best quality performance has absolutely nothing to do with" these parts of the front-end either...? |
Thuchan,
>>>I am trying visualizing how you exercise in front of your bamboo hut shouldering your arms and protecting against wild animals... Am I wrong?<<<
Ah, very well, you have se right sing of wat you see. No, no, you are not wrong. Und senk you for wen you like set schtrong Marschmusik. Very moving, und sen manchmal I get tears in my eye. I sink it is the right one, oh yes - weil in secret, alles is sonst so left, ja.
On the more serious side, I got some other then comic relieve hearing about the function and performance of tt's: >> best quality PERFORMANCE has absolutely nothing to do with a topology of quality of your or my turntable. <<
Excellent, now I can rest in peace, and go looking for some more MM carts instead :-) |
T_bone, where did you see me said that 8000 does not need isolation? Well, I know that those people understand only imperative sentences and do not use own minds
.
Anyhow. I have written today a large conclusive post and posted it, withdrawing myself from this thread. For whatever reasons the post disappeared. I saved it and I will rep-post in at my site as I think it does a good conclusion for this whole thread. |
FM_login, I did look at the playback installations of some of you and I kind of confused what the hell you do in audio. Some of you have 5-6 turntables with 10-15 tonearms, which is a strong induction in my mind that a person can be disqualified to make comment about sound. After all audio is not about accumulation and cataloging the differences... Not all of us are blessed with the absolute knowledge of what we like best (and the absolute knowledge that it is indeed, the best) when let loose from the womb. Some of us have to experiment to find out what we like. That said, learning about what else is out there is itself a learning experience about music reproduction. I have acquired a bunch of tables (and a lot more vinyl) because I am learning what I like by listening, not by reading what a self-declared expert tells me I should like. I have started getting rid of tables, and will continue to do so because I have reached a certain set of conclusions. As to TT tweaking and isolation platforms... In my case, I live in a city in an earthquake-prone zone. There are trucks and cars rolling past my building constantly. The difference between my SX-8000 (or my other non-suspended/non-isolated tables) on an air/magnetic-bearing isolation platform and the table on its own is night-and-day obvious. Despite your suggestion that the SX-8000 does not need isolation, I will go with what my ears in my environment tells me is right (rather than trying to dampen the tectonic plates, the rumbling of magma deep under Mt Fuji, or decouple my apt. building from its foundations). As it happens, I also work on other parts of my system (and I imagine others do too) but I don't feel the need to post that on threads about Micro Seikis. I am obviously ill-informed because I don't your site or system. I am, however, curious as to why you would have a "daily driver" cartridge which different (and probably lesser) than your "reference" cartridge. If it was really worth listening to your reference cartridge on all kinds of music, would you not use it on a daily basis? I listen to the carts I want to use on the music I want to listen to. That's my reference. Nilthepill, I agree that is indeed a stroke of luck when the system clicks. I have found a few table/arm/cart combos where it just clicks, but I am also inclined to say that "it just clicks" is also largely a state of mind. |
I think, Fm_login speaks lot of truth!
You can't change 'intrinsic' sound of a given TT a whole lot. Agree 100%
Multiple tone-arms/cartridge combos, while it is cool to have, can't necessarily give you best sound that 'you' desire or what your perception of best sound is.
You would have may be one or two combo/sources that meets your mental 'picture' of perfect sound. That you will always go back to when you really want to listen to music. The others are just toys that offer you variety and something to talk about. Sure they helped you arrive at your perfect sound forever, but after that they are useless show/bragging-rights pieces. I, too have some of those.
The comment regarding 'asian' sound is curious and thought provoking for sure. I guess all the components, depending upon where they 'come' from have their signature quality.
It is indeed stroke of luck if you hit a jackpot when a system just clicks ( to your ideal of perfect sound) without having to do any 'external tweak' of addition. But where is the fun in that? |
Axel, I see you are a real expert in a very special kind of music. I would never laugh on your great remarks but it fires my imagination and I am trying visualizing how you exercise in front of your bamboo hut shouldering your arms and protecting against wild animals... Am I wrong? |
Fm_login, yes long ways to result deserve self-congratulation, Ive read but SU2 cannot be bought and SU1 cannot be found so what else you recommend. Have you tried Shelter phono with 901? |
**** Fm_login when you went from two to one TT and 6 to 4 arms was that upgrade or had you decided what arms/carts are best for you? In your opinion do you gain most analog experimentation from step-up/phono?
My setup is openly-known and my evolution with it publicly narrated. My latest evolutionally position that an ultimate turntable must have 3 arms/needles: one reference stereo, one reference mono and one second type stereo for dally use. I do comment about the specifics of the arms/carts/step-up/phono. Sure, I perfectly understand that it might be use from more arms/carts but there is celebration of result and there is a self-glorification of means to get the result. I very much know the difference. I have a few 5000, arms and cartridges that are sitting as a dead ballast in my storage I probably need to get rid all of them. I wish people do not ask pictures when they buy audio as to lift those Micro tables is do dams difficult
. |
Dear Fm login: +++++ " I do not look for best quality performance of any cartridge I know what I get, I know what efforts requires to get what might be gotten from sound, I know what kind reimbursement I get for my efforts " +++++
I know too but I'm a little on the near " perfection " path on that cartridge quality performance subject and that's why I go through a different path that you go, IMHO nothing wrong with that: a different approach, that's all.
Yes is evolutionary and my target is to have several/different cartridges mounted at the same time in the same tonearm design.
About your tip I totally agree with, this subject is something that till today I try to " support " and made/make advise on it. Good to hear that there are people that agree on this over-stimated TT subject.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Fm_login when you went from two to one TT and 6 to 4 arms was that upgrade or had you decided what arms/carts are best for you? In your opinion do you gain most analog experimentation from step-up/phono? |
*** I like the " intrinsic " performance of the 5000 but as you know it is a unfinished product where we need to add to the unit : footers or some kind of damping platform, a TT mat and a platter damping. I address all those factors trying to have a better Micro performance and IMHO I have success about
. The Micro TT's are very good units but not perfect and like almost anything else in audio needs some kind of "help".
Yes, you are right, but it pretty much it. BTW, Micro did BA-600, a pneumatic platform for 5000 as well as own Micro mat. Still, the isolation platform I do not consider as a basic past of TT, it rather a consideration how a given TT system is installed in a given environment. Also, I do not use 5000 but 8000, so have less problems
.
*** I can tell you that thank's to all those tonearms that I have on hand I can obtain almost always the best quality performance of any cartridge I try/test that if ( with the vintage and today tonearms designs. ) I owned only two tonearms maybe I can't do it. This is my approach on the subject, which yours? how do you know ( with 1-2 tonearms. ) that what your cartridges show is the best that can achieve?
It is evolutionary thing; I use to run 6 tonearms and now I am removing the tonearm #4, living the 3 tonearms/carriages that I really use: mono, stereo and dirty stereo. I do not look for best quality performance of any cartridge I know what I get, I know what efforts requires to get what might be gotten from sound, I know what kind reimbursement I get for my efforts. We all adults and we all know not mitigate our efforts per amount of gratification we get for the efforts. Knowing what I want to get from audio I do not find that relentless pressure of best quality performance interests me. If I want best quality performance then I shot doe my phonostage and tune on my FM tuner. Also, let me give you a tip: the best quality PERFORMANCE has absolutely nothing to do with a topology of quality of your or my turntable.
|
Thuchan
sorry, I forget to say. Se Badenweiler Marsch, you see is ONLY for se inside in se Haus. Se peepl will hav se wrong impreschn if it is on se outside, ja.
But to make it better we are now doing se practice wid de Carmen "Einmarsch of se Gladiatoren" before all is in line and schtaend to attenschn. Und sen the Walz, wenn sey can walz-off after we finischd.
Just to be korrekt, it is not a lafing matter, you see. |
Dear Fm login: +++++ " whole point the default sound (or better to say the opportunity for the default sound ) is built into the design that illuminate the need to do those endless experiments trying to change the TT sound. Micro-Seiki .... " +++++
I owned through the years three MS TT's: two 1500 and my current RX 5000.
I like the " intrinsic " performance of the 5000 but as you know it is a unfinished product where we need to add to the unit : footers or some kind of damping platform, a TT mat and a platter damping.
I address all those factors trying to have a better Micro performance and IMHO I have success about.
I think that this kind of " help " ( in the case of the RX 5000 ) is need it and not because I try to change the Micro self sound ( that I agree can't overall change it. ).
The Micro TT's are very good units but not perfect and like almost anything else in audio needs some kind of " help ".
Now, if some of us really can hear tiny changes in the Micro performance due to those " help " is something that you, me or any one can't argue against/favor because the differences in each person perception capacity and of course the differences in the audio sytems/room and system set-up.
About your whole comment: +++++ " Some of you have 5-6 turntables with 10-15 tonearms........" +++++
I can tell you that thank's to all those tonearms that I have on hand I can obtain almost always the best quality performance of any cartridge I try/test that if ( with the vintage and today tonearms designs. ) I owned only two tonearms maybe I can't do it.
This is my approach on the subject, which yours? how do you know ( with 1-2 tonearms. ) that what your cartridges show is the best that can achieve?
+++++ " Work on other aspects of your playback, it will bring you more true results. " ++++, I agree.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Hi Thuchan
Jawohl! I have my Schwarzes schtend in se line, by 6 sharp. I take se appel, sen sey can go abgetreten! (Else gets kick in se back-side). Sey love it wenn we sen play the Kaiserwalzer afterwards.
So very beautiful it is always, and wis all de kultscher und alles.
Greetings |
Oh Axel, you are a fan of Marschmusic and all prussian accessories, didn´t know that. Are you exercising in the house or in front of the house - I mean are you playing a Marschmusic instrument too? |
Thuchan, you are talking about environments and the system setups, which is very primitive and incorrect way to understand what I said. T_bone the derivation of Japanese listening audio preferences from phonetic structure of Asian language is not a fact but a proposal I made a few years back, when I was arguing this point at my site at that time. There are plenty research done how different culture process sound and reflect with spiritual and ecstatic responses. I have my own views as well but it is not the point that I would like to advance in this thread. I mentioned it in context of Dertonarm proposal that Micro was made by God to use with strings and his bringing the Japanese magazines and experience of Japanese crowd to back it up.
I am well familiar with cult that took place at that time around strings, and the zillion techniques ho to soak the different material strings in different marinades in order to get improvement in the strings theory. Yes, there was a fashion to it in at that people, as anything else in audio the fashion was based not upon a lucidity, common since and listening experience but upon a foolish artificial idea. You can even find at that time people traded the secretive samurai ways to tight the strings
It is ridicules! I belt from a slow torch motor is too hard drive to a platter but a knot on the strings is invisible! Wonderful theory!
The true is that when people use light TT then how you drive of TT affect sound. In case of use heavy platter and proper balance between platter and stator the sensitively of TT to external forced become much negligible and many of fantasies that that people apply to TT logic is not applicable to TT with heavy platter and proper mass distribution. People are accustomed to endlessly tweak the TT searching the differences. The best example of it the Walkers turntables (and many others) with zillion adjustments and each of them changes the TT sound. That is ridiculously-stupid thing to do and it is more celebrates ignorance people who make and use those TTs. The whole point of Micros that they are insultingly simple, have own default sound proper sound and, trust me, it is VERY difficult to change how they sound. This is the whole point the default sound (or better to say the opportunity for the default sound ) is built into the design that illuminate the need to do those endless experiments trying to change the TT sound. Micro-Seiki topmost turntables are an opportunity do not do that entire BS that you guys do, I have no idea why you do not USE this opportunity.
I did look at the playback installations of some of you and I kind of confused what the hell you do in audio. Some of you have 5-6 turntables with 10-15 tonearms, which is a strong induction in my mind that a person can be disqualified to make comment about sound. After all audio is not about accumulation and cataloging the differences, if somebody do not know what they do in audio then they do not know. A good performing turntable, perhaps two, with 3-4 tonearms/cartridges is an absolute maximin that a person needs to address 100% of all tasks of records playing. If a person cant do it by those means then person is clueless about ether sound or what he does. The heavier Micros are a good platform to render this task. It has good default sound, it allows use multiple arms and it is very difficult to screw up with this sound
.
I do not think that I need to advocate the heavier Micros for this people in here as it looks like there are plenty Micro users in this thread but I wonder why the heavier Micro users are not set yet that make them to do further actions with TT. In context of this thread it might be mentioned other changes that people might make with their playback it order to get truly better sound, why to keep pondering that poor Micro, leave your Micro-Seiki alone. Work on other aspects of your playback, it will bring you more true results.
PS: I intentionally did not go into addressing the fantasies about of SET amplifiers, LCR RIAA triode SRPP-preamplifiers, big string driven TTs, complex super sophisticated horn speakers. It is not the subject of the thread and the participants apparently too lightweighted to understand the subject less superficial.
|
I guess not having been there leaves one to certain pre-conceptions, true.
Number one of them --- horror of horrors, some huge horns never mind with SET's, in very small rooms. (Chinese Opera what else?)
There was a 2 part presentation in Image HiFi some time ago and the presenter tried pretty hard to be all positive - alas kind of caved in at the end of part two.
He was invited to some of the top HiFi collectors and their sundry friends.
Well, I give him 10/10 for going through it all with ~ 'highish' spirits (Like Jeremy Clarkson driving cars in India... on Clarkson's car world).
It is a few year ago, but I'd say not one single system on display in A'gon could look quite as 'whacked out', for loss of a better term.
So, the TT may go right back up on the TV --- because is were we will hear the ocean... |
Thuchan,
>>> Maybe you think of me as a German going every weekend to a Volksfest in Bavaria, returning home and playing Marschmusik all the time...<<<
Ja, ja, ja, but you will! Weil se Marschmusic is se best, 1,2,3, Gleichschritt, jawohl...
Or are you by any chance into Chinese Opera then?! Badenweiler- und Radezky-March definitely be easier on the ear. (and all from se 12 inch Tonarm - heaven :-) |
Thuchan, I could not agree more...
Preconceptions and "experiences" long gone and the result of different conditions no longer apparent, do sometimes cloud the sight and most often do serious block new paths which could lead to much better results.
SET amplifiers, LCR RIAA triode SRPP-preamplifiers, big string driven TTs, complex super sophisticated horn speaker systems were all there in Nippon as far back as the early 1970ies.
The low-fi amplifiers exported and sold to the western hemisphere were not the best they had to offer.
We just thought it was.
In fact the japanese high-end audio scene were 20 years "ahead" of us back then.
All what was "discovered" in the early 1990ies was in fact imported from Japan via France. |
FM_login
This is a funny understanding of the Japanese audiophiles you have. Having lived in Japan I have seen listening environments which do match your description (TT on TV etc.). But I have also seen very sophisticated environments, carefully planned and executed - also in big rooms, believe it or not.
And to be honest how many of the listening rooms in the western world are carefully planned and executed?
Maybe it is always the same with our preconceptions we carry around with us. Maybe you think of me as a German going every weekend to a Volksfest in Bavaria, returning home and playing Marschmusik all the time... |
FM_login,
I am not sure I understand the "non-morphemic tone of Asian language" bit, and I am certainly unaware of how such might relate to "Japanese sound". Japanese language is structurally morphemic, and is not tonal in the way that Asian languages are generally labelled tonal. If "tone" refers to intonation, Japanese is not structurally dissimilar from American English - the intonation is different but the structure of intonation patterns is not.
I think talking about the shape of physique is cute but almost meaningless; in terms of physique the more important aspect might be seating height, as affected by ratio of upper body height vs lower body height combined with average height - the average ear-tuchus span as I think it is technically called :^)...
As for what the Japanese sound is.... some of the favorite tables out there are Linns. For those who play with heavy platter Micros, the most popular arm/cart combos seem to be SME long arms with SPU carts attached. And usually all this is played through a class A amp, in many cases SET.... is that "Japanese sound?"
MUCH more important would be average difference of listening room environment. |
Well, - on the other hand (chinese doesn't have that much in common with japanese as it might seem from the western point of view....) there was true audiophile high-end in Nippon VERY different from what we think/thought by looking and listening to Technics and Sansui low-fi ss amplifiers in the late 1970ies.
And western Jazz and romantic european symphonic Classical music was - and is - big in Japan.
There were sophisticated SET-amplifiers, complex super high efficiency horn loudspeakers and big analog turntables widely common in Japan by the late 1970ies.
But - I admit - not in late maoistic China.......
We just didn't noticed back then.
We thought the low-fi components they exported and sold to us were all they knew and could do.
Big mistake.
Most - if not all - what we "discovered" in the 1990ies was imported via France from Japan with a solid 20 year delay. |
Ho, crash, clang, this no funny non-morphemic sound pepa-tt on top of ah TV, and caan listen to ocean...
It is an interesting point you make, and a Mr. Steen Duelund (bless his souls) had noted the different Asian physic --- shoulders closer to the ears and that as far as he found, attributed to a different sound appreciation.
If you once had the opportunity to listen to Chinese Opera (and in deed survived the occasion) you will absolutely appreciate that there must be a difference here. Head splitting crash cymbals and lots of nasal ha's and ho's is mostly outside of the western ears' idea of 'music' in deed :-) |
Kip
this the right one for the Micro: Plattentellerauflage aus PLEXIGLAS® 5mm stark D=293mm
Steve |
