I didn't say all $100K+ systems owners are like that @jss49, (I know @millercarbon looks at every possible component and tweak and @mikelavigne is about as committed as anyone in looking at all his options) ) I'm thinking of the proliferation of the "smart home" places, which is what the only stereo store left in Southern New Jersey turned into and how audio is an after thought. https://hifisales.com/They make the majority of their money through installations, home theater set ups, and people throw big money at their "designers" who handle lighting, window shades, security, furniture, even renovations, etc. Also, not to be sexist, but the vast majority of audiophiles are not women, and they handle these types of decisions many times. (I know there are a few women on Audiogon, but please don't hang me.) The store's only person who knew anything about turntables quit after the store transitioned. They have a right to make money of course, but even Best Buy'a high end section Magnolia, makes more off the "services", except setting up turntables! I guess I am wrong about the only store selling stereo being gone in my area since Best Buy does sell McIntosh, B&W, KEF and other brands that have the ability to stock all these stores (probably not getting paid for the demo equipment up front that smaller manufacturers could not afford) that are in a small subset of Best Buys located well, demographically speaking. And some of these people don't care about $100K spent or how much they could make on that investment, they have more money than they can ever spend (not investing). And they don't have the time or interest in learning the details. Remember Tony Soprano on the Soprano's listening to Clapton in a memorable scene in his basement saying it sounds like Clapton is playing in the room? Doubt he knew what a preamp is. Any other $100Kers out there invested in ONE system, preferably using a turntable a good amount of the time, that are not in the stereo business or have the equipment left over after working in the business? Also, I am not talking about $100K list price, actual $100K invested in components and tweaks, cables, etc. That $100K system could easily translate into a $50K system (which is still more than I'd consider, but it's a different story) out of pocket on the current inventory. As a music and audio enthusiast, I just can't see how a system can be worth that much as part of a room where other activities take place, not a dedicated listening room (not counting part of the $100K invested in video equipment and furnture,etc.). |
@sokogear I would think that most $100K systems are bought by multimillionaires/billionaires who don’t spend a lot of time evaluating, thinking about or listening to their systems as they may be in a 2nd or 3rd house. They probably have a designer type making the decisions for them, and I would be shocked to see them posting on this site.
Please prove me wrong so I know that the equipment is being enjoyed. not to be argumentative, but you are wrong - i am proof of that, i am not a billionaire (not even close) but i have done quite well in life moneywise not all folks who have wealth were born rich or hit the lottery, and then outsource purchase decisions to hired hands (not even most) in fact most of the wealthy people i know are that way because they are normal people, sensible, value conscious, care about what they buy, thoughtful throughout their lives about managing finances and assets (not to mention other life decisions) - when you have spent a major chunk of time and energy in your life earning/accumulating the wealth you have, you usually don’t stop caring about how it is used |
@sokogear why would you think a millionaire or billionaire doesn’t evaluate the usage of their money?
$100,000 invested typically doubles every 10-12 years. There’s always an opportunity cost for money. |
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I am amazed at the number of people I hear about on this site that have $100K invested in their current system (not including losses taken on past gear traded in) and how many are just counting one system that they use and not multiple components they switch in and out.
I would think that most $100K systems are bought by multimillionaires/billionaires who don’t spend a lot of time evaluating, thinking about or listening to their systems as they may be in a 2nd or 3rd house. They probably have a designer type making the decisions for them, and I would be shocked to see them posting on this site.
Please prove me wrong so I know that the equipment is being enjoyed. I hate wasting anything and not using something that a creator/designer of components is a waste. Just like cars that never get driven and are held for investments. Dr. Porsche and Mr. Ferrari would be turning over in their graves. |
@mrklas:
"...it seems folks enjoy their systems...and isn't that the point?"
I sure hope so!
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The interesting things about members and their systems is it seems folks enjoy their systems...and isn't that the point?
Whether you have a $10k system or you received a stereo from a friend or family member that upgraded their system does it really matter?
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I have friends with much, much more expensive systems and yes, their systems sound good but only "different"-- not "better" than mine-- to my ears. Spending a lot of cash is no guarantee of ending up with a system that pleases you.
Very good remarks... Most people think that this is money which give S.Q. Up to a limit yes... But at any price it is acoustic control of the room the greatest luxury... My 500 bucks system is one of the best there is for his ratio S.Q. /price, thanks to basic psychoacoustic laws.... |
I don't mean to be unfriendly but your question strikes me as kind of.. odd. Would you approach a stranger and ask how they manage to afford their boat/car/vacation house/Rolex/kid's private schooling, etc ? That's not generally considered polite behavior in this culture.
If you are feeling frustrated about the "high cost of audio", I can sympathize, up to a point. Steve Guttenberg, for one, has posted multiple videos about low-cost systems on his Daily Audiophiliac Show on YouTube. Needless to say, you can always buy used/demo gear.
Over twenty years, I've slowly upgraded to the point where I've got about 25K invested, including cabling and tweaks. I have friends with much, much more expensive systems and yes, their systems sound good but only "different"-- not "better" than mine-- to my ears. Spending a lot of cash is no guarantee of ending up with a system that pleases you. You need to learn to listen and discover which factors of msuic reproduction are most important to you.
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To answer the original question. I have 3 systems,
Good story.... My best to you and respects... |
To answer the original question. I have 3 systems, I think I have spent about 40k over the course of 20 years. - I still use my original system. All parts were bought used. Paradigm signature s8, parasound monoblocks + jc2
- My new system is kef ls50 + parasound hint 6 + M&K subwoofer
- My third system that I am working on building is Rotel Michi S5 + P5 which will be paired with Gershman Studio 2.
I have been fortunate enough to be able to save 30% of my yearly salary. I have no medical expenses, and our family is just me and my wife. I do own a house, but don’t buy super fancy cars. I do own 2 motorcycles. I am able to save money because we don’t have kids but I do support my parents financially and in any other way I can because they helped me save quite a bit when I was in college and because they are straight up best human beings I know of. The beauty of audiogear is that even if it’s old it can sound great for many years, so if I have something that sounds great why replace it? I plan to keep my three systems for at least next 10 years unless something fails. I don’t like to replace components just because new one is available. Before my kef ls50 meta I was using the original ones for 6 years until my nephew decided to poke the shiny golden driver 😭 |
Wow - if you are much taller than 6', then I don't blame you for not liking your head touching the roofliner.
I guess for you to be comfortable, you have to get one of those big trucks/SUVs that the players in the NBA get.
Beleive me, Porsche used the space for the spare very efficiently. They don't waste on cc in the 911. The older ones had smaller engines and were air cooled, so no water pump. The new engines are more complicated as well. Ever look inside the rear hood in a water cooled one? The engine is jammed in there. |
sokogear,
The first thing I do when getting into a car, for unknown cars even before entering, is to lower the seat as much as it goes. The last Porsche 911, I even had a salesman with me. It may be that some people are more in love with what they get from the car than being bothered by the feeling that car is patting the top of their head all the time. If that is the case, I envy them. I am visibly more than 6 feet, but not even close to 7. Even more of an issue is that two appropriately-sized feet and three pedals get quite crammed down there.
Spare tire is my pet-peeve. Inflator is fine, unless it gets slashed on the side. Which is what every significant tire problem has been for me. Nails do nothing, it can go for thousand miles. I am really puzzled where the space for spare went. It used to be there when the car was smaller. "The Mystery Of The Missing Space". |
@glupson- I’ve had a 996 (‘99-‘05), 997 (‘06-‘09) and 997.2 (‘10-‘12) and all were roomier than my 4Runner in leg room with sunroof. I haven’t raced, but I trust @jss49 when he talks about his 6’4” friend tracking a 911 with helmet . Also I’ve been to the track and a friend of mine is also 6’4-5” and drives an older one (993 ‘92-‘98 I think)- no problem. Not sure if his car has a sunroof.
Maybe you’re taller than 6’4” or didn’t learn to use the height adjustment. It’s tricky if you don’t have power seats.
Used to come with an inflatable spare I think. Now I just make sure to take my portable tire inflator that plugs into the ash tray on any trips outside 5-10 miles. |
sokogear, "Hey @glupson - have you ever been in a 911? I'm 6' and have more leg and head room than in my old 4Runner. Once you get in, it's very comfortable." Yes, I have. I think every generation in the last 15-20 years although I cannot say which exact models. Only the most recent ones are somewhat manageable. Not comfortable, but at least a person can fit in there. Left knee is still in the way more often than not, toebox is kind of busy, and the metal part above the left window/roof comes very close unless sitting straight in the seat. All of that with the seat in the lowest possible position. I am not sure how one would fit the helmet there without the feeling that the roof is constantly pressing her/him down. I wish I remembered if that one I tried had any kind of sunroof, but I think it did not. Sunroof would explain such a discrepancy in headroom. Otherwise, nice car to look at. I really like it. For some reason, it grew over the generations, but lost space for a spare tire. |
one of my good pals, fellow track buddy is 6-4 and fits comfortably in a 991.1 and 991.2 GT3 RS with helmet... does some 15-20 track days per year on average -- both cars had standard factory cf lwb’s, stock installation (without aftermarket recliner brackets)...
6-3 or 6-4 drivers may need to recline the stock sofa sets (4 way or 18 way) in a 991 car with sunroof... but just a touch, depends on torso vs leg length... |
Hey @glupson - have you ever been in a 911? I'm 6' and have more leg and head room than in my old 4Runner. Once you get in, it's very comfortable.
For someone in the back seat, that's another matter..... |
True confessions. I always coveted the original Speedster, but by the time I really thought about buying, Japanese collectors had driven the prices for the desirable examples to over $100k. So I had a replica built, based on guts from a Beetle. Even found original 50s gauges for the build (remember JC Whitney?) Fun, but I eventually felt guilty about running around in a "fake" car.
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Porsche 911 has grown, but is still way too tight for a comfortable drive for someone with knees. |
MC- I have been in PCA for 18 years and am aware of the Porsche depreciation/appreciation curve. I always buy them 3-4 years old certified from a dealer and let the first guy take the $50K depreciation hit. I think with my car it actually happened sooner than normal. Maybe because my car is not real common. It’s not “rare” but certainly not abundant. I didn’t buy It to make $$- I need something to drive and I want the most possible fun. I guess I lucked out.
I also know the value of wheels weight reduction benefits. Even more so with bicycles, although not nearly as pricey. My recent purchase of a fairly basic carbon fiber bike included a wheel &tire upgrade that reduced the weight around 20%. |
The wheels in that video are sick. I only wonder what it would cost to replace one if you blow it out. ($5K or more). Pretty sure they will be at least a $20k option. But, carbon fiber! And remember, this is unsprung weight. I'm also getting PCCB. Together they are probably close to 10 lbs per wheel. 40 lbs might not sound like much but again, unsprung weight! Lighter wheels respond to the road much faster for better handling and a more supple ride. Also the lighter rims are much less mass to spin, so both braking and acceleration improve. Finally, carbon fiber is inherently vibration damping. So a smoother more quiet ride. Based
on your comments, I guess this is my last car (that only I drive with
rare exception). In only put on 5K a year. I'm surprised you didn't
mention any GT3s or GT2s. I guess you are talking about cars you can
fairly easily find without breaking the bank. By home run I mean the combination of a whole lot of different factors. The GT cars are always in a league of their own. But so is the Carrera GT. So is the 918. That's not what I mean. Your 997 isn't as fast as any of them, or as rare. But there is a balance of factors that come together to create a certain driving experience. I don't really know how to explain it. The 991 is a much better, faster car. In every way. But there is a special fun factor that your 997 has that the 991 just doesn't. Not saying it is not a great car. Totally is. Just not in the same way. You love your GTS, enjoy it. You will have a hard time finding better. Also, at 5k miles a year you will find it is going up in value. If not already then soon. All Porsche cars begin to appreciate at about 12-15 years. Some sooner, but all no matter what stop losing value and start going up like that. My 911SC was very common, depreciated from $25k to around $12k the first 10-12 years. Then started slowly rising. People are silly about these things, they only notice sort of at random. Gosh the market is getting hot they say. When in reality there was a long steady appreciation going on for years. They just don't notice. Until one day the SC is selling for $35-40k, way more than when new, they act like this is so shocking. Look around. See what I'm saying is true. Even the 996 are going up! Guess when that started happening? Around 2015. When the first ones were 15 years old. Just like I said. Right on schedule. |
Given MC's description of motor mount engineering, the OP might want to change the thread title to "systems and their members."
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@sokogear...I used to own a Macan. I liked it so much it's why I ended up by buying the 911.
@millercarbon you may be right. I’m not a Porsche guy. Over the cars I’ve owned I’d rank my M3 and Aston Martin Vantage as cars that I enjoyed more. They weren't better 'cars' and in many ways the 911 was a superior car - it just didn’t connect with me emotionally.
Just like music and audio systems we each have our tastes. I tried the Porsche thing and in the end I realized I would rather have my money enable other things. |
My wheels are not carbon fiber. I think either a GT3 RS or GT2 has a Weissach package for $30K that had magnesium special light wheels. I didn't even know about the motor mounts. I've only pushed my car once, on an empty highway. It seemed to have unlimited power/acceleration, even in 6th.
The wheels in that video are sick. I only wonder what it would cost to replace one if you blow it out. ($5K or more).
Based on your comments, I guess this is my last car (that only I drive with rare exception). In only put on 5K a year. I'm surprised you didn't mention any GT3s or GT2s. I guess you are talking about cars you can fairly easily find without breaking the bank.
I still have to deal with my wife changing cars every 4 or so years. I drive them in the rain, snow, etc. Considering a Macan for her or may just lease another A4. Have another year+ to worry about it. I just hope the supply chain improves so the market isn't as crazy as it is now. Otherwise I'll have to buy the A4 off of the lease, and they are not long term keepers with their reliability issues. |
Even as great as the 911 is, there have over the years been a few times Porsche really hit a home run. Not necessarily the fastest, but the best combination of speed, handling and comfort that combine for indescribably fun factor. The first was the 911SC. Then the 964RSA. The last one was the 997.2. The 997 GTS came with magnetorheological fluid filled motor mounts. These motor mounts change from squishy commuter comfort to rock hard race in milliseconds. Computer controlled. When I say rock hard race, when I nailed it at 5k in 2nd the car did not merely accelerate, it felt as if we had been rear-ended! I have been in a Cup Car. Those the engine is hard mounted. You feel every ingition every cylinder. The 997 you feel comfort- until you nail it and it becomes a Cup Car. This people is just the motor mounts. All this technology, and we are just talking about the freaking motor mounts. In a 911 from two generations ago. sokogear, your GTS is a home run. Drove it, know it. Check it out, according to this carbon fiber wheels with center locking hubs will be an option on the 992.2! https://youtu.be/y4k05gh58WE?t=517 |
I have a German friend who lives in Hamburg; he and his family own a successful machine business. You would never know it by interacting with him. Very laid back and non-ostentatious.
After a few years the subject of cars came up. He always has the fanciest AMG sedan and reminded me that those cars are bred for the Autobahn He drives extremely fast when knucklehead drivers aren't in the wrong lane. I know sedans and Porsches are quite different, but I'm sure there are several German cars that feel like child's play at 190.
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Hey MC - mine might be my last one - '11 GTS. max 997.2 power other that GT3 (has no sunroof) No turbo, normal sunroof. Triple black, center lock wheels....Please convince me otherwise. I've always replaced every 6 years and now I am overdue.
Can't think of anything else except an older, slower GT3. I don't pay for collectibility, just pure fun. |
190 in a 996 X-50 is child's play. It lacks the soul of the 993...
they simply are different creatures with some common dna...
i currently own neither, mostly because I believe in sampling...
like colors.. Zanzibar Red, Adventurine Green, Garnet, and ( of course ) Slate Grey... |
@mrklas I recently advertised on Facebook my 2002 BMW M3 E46 that I had bought brand new (200K miles). I have 150 responses in 1 hour and a guy who had seen my car on my driveway before came to my house 10 minutes after the ad went up and game me cash.
I am now driving a 12 year old Chevy Aveo, a bicycle, and also new speakers. Pretty happy the way things went. |
Anyone sells a 911 to buy a Camry is beyond help. I don’t care how old you are. As Jerry Seinfeld says, "This is a dead man’s car." It is a bit much to say you should be buried in it. But only a bit. I got my first 911 30 years ago and recently told my wife I’m driving the next one forever. Here it is. https://youtu.be/bXRyy-RBuzc?t=566 Watch closely, you can see the ride change from Sport to Normal. Only in a Porsche 911 is 190mph "Normal". |
My sincere condolences. I told my wife when I got my first 911 18 years ago that this is the car I'm driving until I can't get in or out of it.....
Hopefully health wasn't a factor in your decision.
At least you won't be incurring much in terms of depreciation cost.... |
@sokogear
I decided to 'downsize' both my house and my toy collection.
Got rid of my 911 and C63S and bought a used Toyota Camry.
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@mrklas- why did you get rid of the 991?
What did you replace it with?
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I owned a 991 and the car is so damn good its no longer scary to be in a car that could win the Daytona 500 20 years ago with the AC and music playing. Technology has made some many of the things I really like more attainable - a great performing car relative to my first car (1975 Dodge Dart) is downright cheap because it works 99.9% of the time versus 80% of the time.
- speaker technology has improved...a $500 pair of speakers is light years better than my Advents!
- Ok, records are more expensive but streaming is cheaper than buying Maxell XLIIs for the car stereo!
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@mitch2 - please let's not get political.....
and @unreceiveddogma - who mentioned what someone earns? I didn't see it any of @millercarbon 's posts. Not that he hesitates to defend himself.... |
What is an
unequal society Unequal in what way? |
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Milliercarbon:
Isn’t the question of what one “earns” a loaded question in such an unequal society?
I’m not saying that I care to draw that line somewhere in the middle of this forum. Just sayin’ |
I’m sure it is better, just like the 996 was better than the 993. Just not my cup of tea. I wish they made a Cayman with a sunroof (which I know doesn’t fit without really reducing headroom). I’ve gone from 996 (C4) to 997.1 (S) to 997.2 (GTS). These are like planes as you know, no need to change every 4-5 years.
I’ve driven the 991 and 992. I think they are getting too big, like the 928 did. And the sunroofs are a disaster from a looks standpoint.
Everyone knows the Cayman is the best handling Porsche, and I might add most fun, I just can’t live without a sunroof and don’t want a cab I can only use a few months a year without freezing or burning. There are worse things in the world than driving a 10 year old (and counting) 911. |
When the 996 came out it was head and shoulders a better car than any 911 that came before. But it was different. So it caught flack. The iconic 911 door closing sound was gone. I complained about this to an older more experienced Porsche man. "That’s nothing!" he said, "You should have seen it when the 911 came out! The 356 was entirely made by hand, the 356 guys would say the door closed like a bank vault, the 911 you have to slam it." The 992 is the best Porsche. Until the next one. https://youtu.be/bXRyy-RBuzc?t=565 Watch when he changes from Sport to Normal, you can see the ride go smooth on the video. 322kph. 200mph. Fizz in the pants. https://youtu.be/bXRyy-RBuzc?t=793 |
992 is way too big and complicated and all turbos. 991 was too big for that matter and had a ridiculous looking sunroof when open. I like the 997.2- no IMS problems. Regular in line 6, sunroof, etc.
I know .... that what the purists said when the water cooled ones came out in ‘99.
if you want a new one, get a Cayman or Boxster. I think you can get a 6 cylinder model, non-turbo. |
The new 992 has the most head and leg room, AP fits in it easily and he is at least 6ft. Only problem, their entire MY21 allocation is already filled for some models. Or so I have heard. Not quite ready to order mine so don't know for certain yet but it sure looks like at least the C4S is sold out through the end of the year.
I know, it is a surprise, finding quality Porsche content on an audiophile site. It's not the site. It's just me. Being me. |
Oh, by the way, I still have my Sansui 350 and Pioneer PL-A25 with the top of the line Lafayette speakers. Should I consider trading these in too??? What sounds best to you folks? Thanks again... |
Went to Motor Trend and Road & Track to check out which Porsche fits me best and was referred here. Thank dog. My Karmann Ghia is a '67 and only has 400,000+ miles, but figured what the heck, I do finally deserve a Porsche! Huh? What?? |
Audiophile experience, i dont pretend to the best audiophile experience in the world tough, please read me with your intelligence, i only claim that a relatively good Audiophile experience may cost peanuts....
And cost peanuts for me....
I called my virtual system page " audiophile experience for the poor"
Dont be fooled by the old photos you will see, it is "nuttier" now; but dont be fooled by the images, the S.Q. is the best i ever listen to at any cost.... Not the best system in the world but the best for me.... Understand me rightly please....I dont boast about my gear, i instead promote cheap homemade embeddings controls for ANY gear at ANY price...
Most people dont know what their system will sound like in a controlled mechanical embeddings, nor with a lower electrical noise floor and ESPECIALLY with a passive AND ACTIVE room controls....They CANNOT figure out trust me....It is impossible save if you lived it through...And dont search for an article review about this experience in audio magazine.... They sell costly upgrades addition...At best costly bass traps or diffusive surfaces....
Dont be fooled by my room/laboratory, for 500 bucks paid for all my system, i smile listening with comparison to any system... Not because my system is better... He is good but not better and even less good than most pictures i see on Audiogon.... But there is an ABYSS between well embedded and not well embedded...An ABYSS....Not a small difference....
You will not read what i just wrote in audio magazine....
Guess why?
Electronic design is mature for the last 50 years, it is easy to pick some pieces at good price; But it is less easy to figure out how to implement working embeddings controls, embeddings controls are called "tweaks", secondary addition to the system bordering on snake oil for most people....This is a proof of complete ignorance of audio for me....
It is the opposite which is true, give me any good gear i will transform it..... the gear is ALMOST secondary, the ACOUSTIC is primary especially ACTIVE acoustic control not only necessary passive materials treatment.... I laught at people comparing costly dac in non acoustically controlled room....How in the hell can they know how they really sound? Some compared costly pieces of gear in minimally controlled room.... Guest what is the result? harshness, unnatural timbre which is easy to listen to even through my own system....
Why in the hell no audio review explain it very loud?
Guess why?
The more powerful effect in audio is the " pricing" placebo....Read me with intelligence i know perfectly well that many costly amplifier may be better than my Sansui..... But costly upgrade are NOT the solution..... The consumers conditioning with costly upgrade is the problem.... Thank God! i trusted only me ears from the beginning and with them figure out cheap solutions....I spared much money and much despair.....I did not wanted to die without listening music with a good sound... It is done....
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every day is a car show......the dude abides..... |
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He should try a 911. I have more room in that than I did in my '05 4Runner. By a good amount - especially leg room. |
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