MC loading at 47K

No.

Dear @lewm  :  """  loaded one of my LOMCs at 47K ohms. The experience was a revelation, and I have never looked back. ""

That  means that you are loading your Essential 3160 at 47K?

R.

 I was thinking last night that results might to some degree depend upon the input capacitance of the first gain stage in your phono section. Both of my phono stages use a cascode input. In a cascode, the gain element that receives the incoming signal is isolated from the anode of a completely discreet separate gain element via a direct connection between the anode of the input tube and the cathode of a second tube. therefore there is very little or none of what is called  Miller capacitance. (Both tubes and transistors exhibit the phenomenon of developing a capacitance between the anode of a tube and the grid. Also between cathode and grid to a lesser degree..) And a transistor has analogous nodes. So if you are using a phono stage with a 12AX7 input tube, for example, The miller capacitance can be quite high, because it is in part a function of the mu which for a 12AX7 is very high. Cartridges connected to the grid of a 12AX7 in a common cathode topology would possibly do better with lower value load resistors. All of the above applies to triodes. Not many tube phono stages use pentodes anyway. Of course, you should keep the cable capacitance as low as possible also.

Correct Chakster but as we have the same phono stage and get differing results it has to be something else.
My carts, my total system or my ears! LOL.

Well, as Ralph explained many times it's all about the phono stage. 
And probably a cartridge impedance

P.S. sadly you can't try your nagaoka MM with 100k ohm

Very interested indeed.
I had read a lot about 47k loading for lomc and was real fired up for it to work, so you could say I even had some expectation bias for it to sound good.

But after numerous listening sessions with,numerous carts ( and as you know the change on Goldnote is instant so real easy to tell, no memory thing) it just did not cut it for me.

Maybe in my case it is the sum of everything else, cables etc.

Right now running Nagaoka MP150 so not going to experiment again anytime soon. But I tried enough to say just in my system, my carts, my ears it was not optimal loaded at 47k.

Long time ago when i bought my first hi-fi phono stage i didn’t know about loading. There was just one switch between mm and mc, later i realized it was just a gain switch, but the load was 47k for both (low and high output cartridges). Guess what phono stage it was?

It was $500 Grado PH-10 phono stage. The reason for no optional loading was obvious (all Grado carts are MI). I was using MC with that phono stage and it was just fine for LOMC.

My secong phono stage was much more expensive (about $2k), but also with no optional loading on MC input, because two SUTs inside the phono stage :) This is still the best phono stage (WLM Phonata ref.) when i need the deepest bass, nothing can beat it in low register for some reason.

Using JLTi at the moment i like 47k for MC, not for all of them, but for most of them (low impedance MC). I can use whatever load resistors with JLTi, i’m using low value resistors only if the cartridge is too bright, but it rarely happens. For open sound 47k Ohm is the best.

Regarding the Uber’s question i think the loading from 100 Ohm to 47k Ohm on my Gold Note phono stage is irrelevant for my FR-7fz. Only when i’m using lower value (for experiment) the sound became rolled off and not interesting in my system. Anything from 100 Ohm to 47k Ohm is good, i can’t detect a big difference with this particular FR-7fz cartridge. However, ZYX CPP-1 headamp does some magic with the same cart, it’s better with ZyX headamp in between FR-7fz and Gold Note phono stage (in MM mode).

Ortofon MC2000 directly connected to Gold Note was fine loaded at 47k or lower.

I think 47k Ohm is pretty much universal for most of my LOMC

Lewm.
The 4 carts I tried all with same phono stage.
Lyra Dorian
ZYx RS50
Scheu SL
Ortofon Cadenza Black.

Out of them all the ZYX sounded best at 470 and the rest at 220.

Was and still am open to trying any and all loading but that was results for myself.

Obviously to my ears in my system etc etc.

Most audiophiles have a Pavlovian response to the question of how to load an MC cartridge.  They've been told for so long and from so many sources to use a low value resistor (typically 100R or some resistance that is about 10X the internal resistance of the cartridge) that they cannot accept another idea.  My money is with Ralph and JC and any other of several knowledgeable gurus.  A few years ago, I inadvertently loaded one of my LOMCs at 47K ohms. The experience was a revelation, and I have never looked back.  There's nothing wrong with the typical approach.  Nor is there anything wrong with 47K ohms, and theory says there is a lot that is good about the idea. 

Unlike Uberwaltz's testimony above, I invariably find that 47K gives a slightly more open, extended sense of treble, compared to 100R.  He doesn't say what cartridges he uses.  In my case, it's ZYX Universe (0.24mV output), Koetsu Urushi, Ortofon MC2000, etc. But, as Ralph says, the phono stage itself has most to do with the outcome.

I tried on 3 or 4 different lomc carts but in all honesty my best results by ear were between 220 and 470. Anything higher
just dulled off the presentation as a musical whole. This was with carts ranging from .24mv to .4mv, maybe really lomc like .1mv or less may show more change?

Btw, using same phono stage as yourself Chakster. If you are still using the GoldNote that is.

It’s an old thread, but this is exactly what i’m doing now by loading my Miyabi MCA at 47k Ohm (JLTi phono stage) and this is by far the best setting for this (low impedance / low output) MC cartridge.

This is not the only one LOMC cartridge in my collection that just fantastic with 47k loading on my preamps (different preams).

How many people on here prefer 47k for MC ?

It is refreshing to hear from sane personnel. I appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I will reiterate a point I made much earlier and that is -I found much greater differences in the sound from the VTA and playing weight than I did from adjusting the load resistance of the cartridge. So I suggest that adjustment be done first using a playing weight in the middle of the spec as per the manufacturer and a tone arm that is level.
Intuitively I would expect a critically damped cartridge to handle complex orchestral pieces better (faster recovery?). I do find that I can hear much more of the individual instruments in a complex passage with an optimum load.

I think, there is also some useful information at the website from Stan Klyne (www.klyne.com), he found the solution to do it right.

Stops, yes it is a resonant circuit, no news there. There was something in the information from the link you posted that didn't quite sit well with me, but looking back now I can't think of what it was. NOthing earth shattering. I think it was something simple, like pointing out that we are really tuning more for upstream cables and circuits rather than just the generator itself. I know many people (not saying you) get agitated by cart specs that only say ">30 ohms" and not give a specific value. Hopefully, folks understand the why after reading those posts.

Stops, sounds to me like you have a pretty good understanding of what is going on here. We are indeed talking about a tuned resonant circuit, and how to damp its behavior.

Dan_ed: I have read the references you suggested,thanks. Is this different from the analysis of a critically damped tuned/ resonant circuit? I would imagine that the "loss" of energy in the sound with the reduction of the 47K load is the reduction of the resonant peak within the audio band around 10 -15Khz and quite common in MC cartridges. Surely a more accurate reproduction would be without this peak present? The earlier reference I posted shows the result of this in a real world cartridge.

I suggest that people read a bit more, like Atmasphere's last post on this thread, and this reply by Jonathan Carr in a thread from last year. The thread is regarding the XV-1s but the post is more general regarding MC loading. Also followed by another post by Atmasphere.

jcarr on mc loading

Lowering the numerical value (increasing the load) will muddy or blur the presentation.

Here is a useful reference for those of you who want to get some facts on the loading of a MC cartridge.
http://www.extremephono.com/Loading.htm

I know but apparently way over your head. You should just give up this line of work.

This has been covered in other threads.

However, in a nutshell there is a simple reason that you see variable results. It has to do with how sensitive the phono section is to Radio Frequency Interference (RFI).

Now its a fact that at almost any loading value you can put on a LOMC, you will not affect the response of the unit at audio frequencies. But when you install the loading resistor (often quite low in the case of LOMC) you can hear a change.

This is because the cartridge has an inductance, the the interconnect cable has a capacitance. Together they form a tuned circuit at ultrasonic (RF) frequencies. The action of the the cartridge playing provides the energy- and so the tuned circuit thus injects RFI directly into the phono input.

Now if the phono section is stable with the presence of RFI at its input, you will not hear a lot of effect with loading the cartridge. But if RFI is able to mess with your phono section, then you will hear big differences. The effect of a resistance is that it lowers the energy of the tuned circuit. When that energy is low enough, the perception will be that you found the sweet spot.

Mind you, this is the 'nutshell' version of this explanation. But it does explain why you will see difference of opinion here.

The bottom line: if you hear big differences with loading, your phono section is sensitive to RFI.

It's simple electrical theory and physics young man.

You need to read more and post less.

Audiofeil:I have done and you are NOT the last word on this subject even though you are trying to be by your soapbox statements....

Dopogue: I agree with you on that. I am using the Phonomena and the changes require extended listening to a wide variety of material. Other items that have a more obvious impact to sound are whether the arm is level or slightly lower at the back and/or the playing weight. These should be optimised BEFORE the load resistance into which the cartridge is fed is evaluated.

Something that hasn't been mentioned: Anyone with a phonostage offering instantaneous load change comparisons like my Aesthetix Rhea will be aware that the audible difference as you go from sub-100 ohms to 47 kOhms isn't nearly as great as you might expect. Yeah, there's a difference (especially going from sub-100 immediately to 47k) but the incremental changes are pretty subtle.

Do your homework Sparky.

Thanks for your scientific analysis

As I said, lowering the numerical value (increasing the load) will muddy or blur the presentation.

Case closed.

The coil in the cartridge is a generator and the external load will damp the generator bringing the mechanical movement (coil) to a quicker stop (back emf). This is analogous to the damping on a speaker by the LOWER output impedance of an amplifier.It is also apparent that a lower resistive load on the cartridge will reduce the output so if you do compare the effects of the various load resistors on the cartridge you should adjust the volume level.There will be an optimum damping for the cartridge that will prevent overshoot of a rapidly rising waveform and therefore trial and error is needed.

Any NON-Personal feedback is welcome.

You have to try it. There is no Standard (unfortunately). The result will be different from Manufacturer to Manufacturer. Phonstage A with 100ohm will not sound identical to Phonostage B with 100ohm, same of course with 47kΩ...
You have to try it on your own, when you will find the best setting, fine. When you buy your next Phonostage, you can start the game again...
There are a few MC Phonostages out there which have excellent results- Speed, airy high frequency Aera, headroom, deep soundstage, holographic Body - with 47kΩ (Stan Klyne, CTC, Vendetta, Manley Steelhead...) but most will sound thin, harsh and lifeless at that Setting. Depends on Design.
At 47kΩ you can hear the cartridge the way it really is, pure, no damping (a kind of coloration), the more you go down, the more slow and dull it will be.
But most Audiophiles are not -really - mad for that. The reason is a compensation in their Hardware. A sharp, thin and agressive sounding System is unlistenable with such a non-load. The cartridge has to be dampened here, that the area of pleasant sound will be arrived. This is System depending. Here you have the reason why anyone will get different answers when he asks for a setting. Even when some have the same cartridge and the same Phonostage.
Unfortuantely to rate a component (a cartridge for example) on such unsafe conditions is like rolling a dice. Next is the Phono Cable, it also has a technical influence, but that is another story.

To design a good sounding Phonostage needs a lot of knowledge. To design a good sounding 47k MC Phonostage shortens this group dramatically. Even today.
It is difficult from shielding, influences, musical flow, high frequency raising, choice of parts and so on.
Those, who can‘t do it, always write, it is not optimal and recommend a lower value, those who can, write nothing about. Unfortunately the Audiophile doesn‘t get technical informations, he gets opinions instead. And after some time, these opinions are transformed into „facts“...

This discussion will never end, because most knowledge is buried, the average became Standard. For the customer is good, what he likes. So it is very rare, when a Dealer like Audiofeil opens his ears and hears a difference in Hardware AND knows why.

Btw. all Benz (and others) were made for 47kΩ, but they changed the description in the manual some years ago, too much problems for the dealers, too much time for explanations...now it is 100Ω-47kΩ :-)

Yes hifihvn, I am aware of that; perhaps my post was poorly written.

When I use the term "lowering", it referred to reducing the value i.e. 100 is a lower number than 600.

As you indicated though, 100 ohms is indeed a greater load than 600 ohms.

Thank you for the clarification.

Audiofeil, one ohm is a real heavy load, to heavy for any cartridge. 47,000 ohms is a light load. To light for a lot of people. Zero ohms is a direct short.

>>03-22-11: Stops
Lowering the load thins out the sound in an MC cartridge<<

Let's be clear on this. Lowering the loading value i.e. going from 600 ohms to 100 ohms will muddy or blur the presentation. Raising the value will add air, presence, clarity and other related superlatives.

I am not the confused poster here.

Check out your closest mirror for that guy.

I think you are getting confused with lowering the height of the arm. That does make the sound muddy.

Lowering the load thins out the sound in an MC cartridge. It also narrows the stage width but it adds more definition.

>>03-20-11: Geoch
I think that he meant "lowering the loading" (not the value).<<

I don't.

I think that he meant "lowering the loading" (not the value).

>>03-20-11: Stops
I ended up at 680 ohms. Lowering it beyond that thinned out the sound too much<<

That's rather odd.

In most cases lowering the value makes the presentation more thick, muddy, or congested.

YMMV

I have the Benz Glider SM and have experimented with the loading using a Phonomena. FIRST of all I should mention that you should set the arm level or slightly lower at the back end and the playing weight correctly BEFORE you play with the loading. If you do not you end up trying to correct a VTA related issue with the cartridge loading!!!

The Benz spec sheet has a huge window from 200 ohms to 47K so obviously that is not much use. The 47K gives a lot of width but it falls down in complex passages of an orchestra you lose a lot of the individual instruments in a hodge-podge of sound. I ended up at 680 ohms. Lowering it beyond that thinned out the sound too much.

Sounds great.

HI All,

After a lot of switching around of loads I have settled in the 80Ohm or 100 Ohm setting. %0 ohm seem too thick and slow and 80-100 seemed spot on. As I went higher 200, 300, 400 and 500 Ohm the sound became more "shrilley for my likings". I prefer a more "meat on bones sound". At higher loadings the sound was a lot more detailed but to me more "harsh".

This is on my Kontrapunkt A cartridge which has a recommended loading of 50-500 Ohms.

Thanks again all.

Cheers
Che

My experience with many different cartridges, and preamps over the years has been that I tend to prefer 47K loading for MC's. Anything much lower than that has usually (not always) made the cartridge unnaturally thick sounding, with loss of fine inner texture to the sound. As Audiofeil says, it is really a matter of personal taste in the context of your particular system. If your system tends to the bright/thin side, you will probably prefer a lower load value.

My experience as well with Titan i and others in the past.

Here is the Manley Steelhead manual. You could check out their options.[http://www.manleylabs.com/PDF/HIFI_Manuals/Hi-Fi/STEELHEAD.pdf]

The option leaves the OP of this thread to choose any cartridge he would like. We're not saying he needs to do this. He is not stuck with 47k only, in other words.

I agree with Frogman. The loading values for an MC are listener and system dependant, however, it has been my experience, especially with the Benz LP and LPS, that wide open at 47K sounded best. Loading at 1000 seemed best for me while the MC was breaking in, however, I experimented with other load values and decided that wide open (47K) sounded the best.

Ciao,
Audioquest4life

Look at Audiofeil's answers very closely. Perhaps I am mistaken, but your OP suggests that you don't understand how loading a MC cartridge works. Running a cartridge into a "wide-open" 47K load, means that the cartridge sees less resistance than at 200, 500, 1000, etc. ohms. My experience with many different cartridges, and preamps over the years has been that I tend to prefer 47K loading for MC's. Anything much lower than that has usually (not always) made the cartridge unnaturally thick sounding, with loss of fine inner texture to the sound. As Audiofeil says, it is really a matter of personal taste in the context of your particular system. If your system tends to the bright/thin side, you will probably prefer a lower load value.

Thats it. I used Dale RN 65 resistors. Not too expensive and not noisy, used by some fancy pants designers. I like the one piece body Y adapter as it is a shorter path and makes for neater wire dress made by monster and others. Post your results Id like to hear what you settle on.

That's the idea. I looked around for pics, and couldn't find any that were good enough to make your own from. Same link.[http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=355531&highlight=parallel+loading]

Hi All,

Found this link showing the load plugs.....will definetly be giving this ago.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.phpt=355531&highlight=parallel+loading

Cheers

Thanks RCCC for the help.

I'm trying to imagine how your plug in will work?

If possible, can you email me a diagram and I will rig something like this up.

Cheers

Get a couple rca y adapters (2fmale to 1 male) and some cheap rca connectors from radio shack. Make yourself a few load plug ins by soldering resistors onto the connectors and the y adapter will put them in parallel with the input. This is a cheap fast way to sample different loading. Use good resistors. If you find something you like you can fashion something more permanent or just use the jig. There's no hard and fast rule its different with every cart, pre, system, combo.