I just bought a used 6 month old Magnepan 1.7 and hooked them to my old system, which consists on a Deonon 2900 Universal player, Emotiva USP Preamp and Rotel 1080 power amp and use anticables for speaker connections, and monster cables for interconnects.
The sound is too bright for me, I used the provide 1 ohm resisters, still too bright, any recommendations.
Good call, as the W4S breaks in, you will get more bass. Not booming bass, but down to the 42 hrz range, that Magnepan advertises. I love the Bass on Maggies, especially the bigger models, it's very tight and fast.
The amps I currently use with mine have incredible bass, and the speakers have measured consistantly down to 32 hrz in this imperfect room. The kick drum always sounds great, in fact I can listen to Outlandas D'Amour over and over again, just to listen to Stewart Copelands drum work, especially on the kick drum, and the high hats on the other end.
I definitely listened to the Maggie 1.7's before buying them. Here is my recent "audiophile" history:
I was an double stack Large Advent Loudspeaker guy for about 25 years. Finally told the wife that I needed to upgrade. This is after capacitor upgrades to the Advents (which opened up the sound quite a bit).
My first upgrade was to purchase a McIntosh MA 6300 integrated at 160 wpc/4ohms. Did this because my old Yamaha 760 integrated quit working. It was the "I always wanted a Mac" purchase.
Next up was an Azur 640 CD player. That lasted less than six months but I knew that going in. I was relocating to a new job and my old player died so I bought the Azur quickly on a "good deal".
Then I upgraded to an Audiospace CD8 with tubed front end. Big improvement. Much more detail, bass, and low noise floor.
So now I am a double stack Advent guy with MA 6300 and a CD8 player. Plus vinyl which I will not go into here. This drove the Advents well but I had heard enough to know that the Advents had to step down.
Now the speaker shopping starts:
Snell J7 monitors - in home audition - too small a sound, too analytical
Klipsch towers - just not my cup of tea. Sounded too harsh and not very refined. Probably was the amp for all I know
Jamo 803 monitors - really sweet, musical sound with pretty good, big bass, but I wanted more than that
B&W - several different models including a couple of in home auditions - just too dry and analytical - very specific imaging to the point of not sounding real at all. To me, with B&W, all the sound is there but there is no life. These were through some Classe and Levinson monoblocks at the dealer as well
Martin Logan - just seemed like the bass was not right - just too much of it - like boomy almost. Too much "in your face" for me. Heard through the same Classe and Levinson monoblocks.
Ascend Acoustic Sierra Ones - in home audition - Liked the sound but really did want a bigger sound and not a monitor size sound
Paradigm Signature towers - couple different models - Too brittle, not enough real bass, no texture
Maggie 1.2' - Heard these and fell in love. To my ear they had a sort of Advent sound. One reviewer had stated about 20 years ago that Advents have a sort of electrostatic sound, so maybe I am not that nuts. I could live without the Advent bass because there was so much more detail to hear. However, it did not take long to think that the 1.2's needed more power.
I home auditioned a Krell S300i integrated with 300wpc/4 ohms that blew the Mac away - no warm, woolly Mac sound but the bass and detail were big improvements.
Then the Maggie 1.7's came out last year and I listened to them twice and puchased them last Thanksgiving - five week wait. I was somewhat apprehensive because they did not sound as musical as the 1.2's although they had a lot more detail and more bass.
The 1.7's continue to break in and now have about 250 hours on them. They sound much more musical than they did at the end of last year. Still thought that I was missing the "edges" of the sound and that is how I got to the 1000 wpc W4S gear.
The bass has improved with the location change and I suspect that it will continue to improve as the new W4s breaks in. The Maggie 1.7's will never be the ultimate in bass but the trade offs to go with Walsh Ohms or ML's, for example, seem to great too me at this time.
06-10-11: Realhifi Hate to ask but did you actually listen to the Maggies before you purchased them? As good as the M1.7's may be they are not for everyone.
Okay - the W4S SX1000 and STP SE have arrived and been listened to for about ten hours - maybe 12 different CD's - mostly jazz and acoustic rock.
Initial impressions: Yes, Maggies love power. They sound a lot better. The sound is generally fully and much more palpable at higher volume. I have played as high as 40 which keeps the STP in passive mode (threshold to active is 60). Not sure that I needed the 1000 versus 500, but if the wife is going to yell I figured I might as well make it worth it!
I am hearing much more detail such as different voices in harmonies and better resolution of instruments in a mix.
The depth of the sound stage has improved because I can hear much more front to back.
I was not sure about the bass at first. Then I remembered Magfan saying to tweak with what you have. I started moving the Maggies in one inch increments and improved the bass in fullness and texture. I would have never thought that two different amps would require respositioning the speakers but I believe it now!
You can try repacing every component in your system like i did and after years of doing so never be copletely happy with the maggies. look how music is recorded sound wise .The main thing is the room in recording studios. Have you ever seen a music hall that the room was not treated . It is such an important aspect in hearing music and sound. Treat the room . It will amaze you like nothing else .Forget switching this cable, that amp, this dac ,that pramp for now and get some bass traps ! Yes bass traps will improve the highs !
Hi, have been playing with speaker positions and working on the room, sold the Denon and bought a Marantz DV9500 on Ebay and added a 2 ohm resistor. Overall the sound is warmer but not quite what I want yet. My old speakers with POLK LSi 15.
Yeah, I think it all depends on the system synergy. I've become a total advocate for tube-pre, and ss amp. For instance, my office system is a Cambridge Soundworks Model 12 for amp and sub, with Gallo A'Divas for the speakers. It was very involving, but a bit too revealing for my taste.
I added the 283 tube buffer, and all I can say is that the sound is so satisfying now, that this will likely be my permanent office setup.
I bought the 283 MKII for my main system, and I've done an A/B comparison, and for my system it works wonders. I'm actually about to order the new $300 tubes from Psvane for it.
Having said that...once I buy a new preamp and class D amps for the main system, it may no longer make enough difference. Time will tell. :-)
For what it is worth, I tried the Grant Fidelity tube buffer between a Azur 640 CD player and a McIntosh MA6300 integrated amp driving a double stack of Large Advents. Could not tell a difference.
I would change the denon first and spend as much as you can as this is your main source then change the pre which I have had and buy a tube pre which will open up everything from a good source then the amp and the maggies will sing.
Good mods. I'd do it a little different...not necessarily better, but different.
Just 2 examples:: I won't use a rigid, mechanical, bridgework style stand for my panels. Living, breating wood is where I'll head, and as light and rigid as I can design. Minimum metal. I'm designing them in Google Sketchup for construction in a wood working class.
Inductors? Since my 1.6s have only ONE, I'll wind it myself using simple 14ga wire and a form made from standard PVC sizes. My design has the same number of layers as turns per layer, so the coil itself is square in cross section and the entire coil is just over 4" in diameter.
Capacitors? The worlds SECOND largest can of worms! Followed, perhaps, only by the 'bypass or NOT' discussion. I don't have deep pockets and may have to compromise with a cap from the Clarity line....SA, maybe. The stock Solen caps are good value, but easily bested.
Magfan, my MGIIIA's were "modded to their limit" with:
-replacement of all xover components with Solen air-core inductor coils (Litz for the ribbon and midrange), and bypassed MIT capacitors.. -everything outboard in a well dampened wood box, with attention paid to the placement and orientation of the coils for minimum interference. -all wiring was Siltech pure silver, completely hardwired. Not a single mechanical connection after the amplifiers' (Manley) binding posts. -fuses bypassed (living dangerously) -custom stand/frame for rigidity -removal of the speakers' socks -Harmonix Tuning Dots
I am sure some would not consider MIT caps to be "the limit", but very good nonetheless.
Great advice here. I offer a small addition. I had a similar issue with my Mirage OMD-28s, and solved it by spending less than $200 on a Grant Fidelity Tube Buffer. I run it between my DAC and Preamp. It gives you some of that tube warmth and dynamic nature for a tiny investment. Worth a try, as its cheap and easy to resell if you don't like it.
Also, get the book 'Get Better Sound', as your room is uber important in sound quality. Good luck.
GREAT question! What WERE the last set of speakers!? I Hadn't thought of that!
Have you flipped 'em around yet? That tamed mine. And Yes, I'm a magnepan veteran. Close to 30 years now, but only a few amps. I've never been an equipment swapper and simply don't have the deep pockets it would take to do extensive experiments.
I'd like to hear what Frogman thinks 'modded to limits' means.
If you've been around panels a long time, you know they swapped sides sometime in the '90s....this to me, made 'em brighter sounding.
FYI, I lived with Maggies for many many years. About a dozen different amps; ss and tube. Used the Maggies in stock form and heavily modifed to their limits. Having said all that I am inclined to agree with Madactexas; the amp is probably the issue. However, everyone (specially you; obviously) has left out a key part of the equation: WHAT WERE THE SPEAKERS THAT YOU USED PRIOR TO THE MAGGIES, THAT (PRESUMABLY) WERE NOT TOO BRIGHT FOR YOU? Answer that question, and the advice will have some significance, instead of everyone stabbing in the dark. "Brightness" is a difficult thing to describe to someone else. I have often heard equipment described as "bright" when I would describe it as thin or harsh; and definitely not "bright". Very different things. Having said all that, I have a strong suspicion that if you stick with these speakers (I would), you will ultimately find that a decent tube amp is what will make you happy.
Rockguitardude has it right Try the 1.5 ohm or Evan higher resistors which Magnepan can provide Try tilt back and play with toe in tweets on inside Let them run in for at least 100 plus hours at low volume Plug all AC gear into the wall not a cheese box computer strip Best Johnnyr
Be careful with 'd' amps. The Krell sure cooks, doesn't it? Maybe better ventilation? I tested 3.6s with the xi400 integrated and it sure got warm, and I didn't even try to abuse it. In my less than perfect space for amp, I'd kill it in a week.
Anyway, back to 'd' amps. The ICE modules are NOT whatever power FTC rating. No 1 hour at 1/3 power preconditioning and STRICT time limits at full power. The ASP module used in the kilowatt amps is ONLY 30 seconds at full power. My 500 watter is 60 seconds. Figure the efficiency at 100% power is about 83%, plug to speaker. That is a lot of power ALL going to heat. Go to the B&O website and look at some photos. Not much heatsink in any of those modules. That doesn't mean they don't work in to REAL loads with MUSIC. Especially since music will only consume a fraction of an amps power with the rest being dynamics...at which the 'd' amps excel. The take away here is to take the power ratings with a grain of salt.
You may like the panels flipped around. I spend a lot of time.....maybe 15 or 20 minutes per session tuning my speakers. When I got 'em where I wanted, I carefully documented and MEASURED the location. I used the wooded side stiles as marks and carefully drew my room in Google Sketchup and place the speakers.....A little trig and I know where the speakers 'cross' and the angle at which they are toed in.
You have a nice space. The ONLY red flag is the length being about 4x the height, but this is made better by the characteristics of panel/dipoles.
If I had really.....reallly deep pockets, I check out a Pass INT-150 and make whatever accomodations necessary if it sounded right. Maybe end up sleeping in the garage.....and eating rice and beans for a couple years.
My Maggie 1.7's are in a room with 9 foot ceilings, 35 feet long and 15 wide. Fully carpeted with couch, loveseat, and chair. Palm trees behind the speakers. The room is on a lower level with stairs near the listening end and an el around the back so it opens up behind the listening position.
The speakers are four feet from the front wall (15 foot wall) and about seven feet apart. I sit about ten feet away (which is too close to get the full effect of different instruments in space). This means about 20 feet behind me. I would like to move to 3.6's or 3.7's but do not think that they will fit given the current room setup. (Mancave to a point but with a healthy dose of WAF!)
I have the tweeters oriented "in" which helped with focus and imaging. Moving them around inch by inch impacts the bass. Mye stands (new used on Audiogon) have made a noticeable improvement in bass.
The speakers have been used for about 350 hours. They seem to continue to improve in the richness of the sound. They started out a little analytical and bright but have mellowed. An improvement.
I have not made the plunge to any special interconnects or speaker wire. Using "no name" stranded wire for the speakers that is thicker than lamp cord. My interconnects are home made from a Walmart out door patio cord with soldered RCA connectors and heat wrap.
I listen to some vinyl, but mostly CDs through a tubed Audiospace CD8.
I run a 300 wpc/4ohm Krell that can play quite loud when I am in the listening position. The volume goes from 0 to 150. If I go above 90 it will overheat and autoshutdown occurs. When the wife comes to talk I have to turn the volume down to about 50 which is a loud background level in order to hear her. We have a bar at the far end of the room and when I sit there I want them louder. Also, I think that 300 wpc into 4 ohms is not enough to carry the peaks.
So...Wyred4Sound SX1000 and STP SE are on order from Underwood Hifi.
By the way, Wally says that Wyred4Sound is contemplating a "reference" line of amps that can be played in digital or tubed mode. They will have better asethetics. Price will be much higher than SX series and the digital side of the sound will not be any different.
A good tube pre under $500 maybe a bit hard to find. Two budget unit with good review comes to mind are the AES DJH and Mapletree 4 SE. But both of them is in the $700-$800 price range. You can keep an eye on those if you can stretch your budget a bit.
Having owned Emo gear I would say replace the pre amp first and also then the source for something with tubes or try a tubed pre amp. Personally Emo has always sounded bright to me whenever I've used it and I will not use it ever again in two channel due to this.
If your looking for budget run a Jolida ect if you wanted to get started in tubes and not have to output a lot of coin. Also not sure about cables but I would try the pre amp first as to me cables do make a difference but the pre will make more. Also the source before cables. IMHO.
I think if you had mentioned the room size in your original post the majority of the replies would have stated that the room is too big for the 1.7s, in addition to other info.
My room is 22ft by 32ft and 12 feet high, I have the speakers in the middle 12 feet apart, and 3 feet from the rear wall with 3 inches of toeing with the tweeters on the inside, I have a large rug and a pair of bookselves behind the speakers and I sit about 10feet in the middle. I have ordered some 1.5 and 2 ohm resistors. I will play more with positioning and tilting and will experiment with a vinage Dynaco PAS - 3 tube pre amp that a friend is willing to lend me. Any other recommendation on a used tube pre-amp under $500 will be appreciated.
I just might get those cheap ferrite power cords and a basic AC filter from radioshack.
The 'not enough power' carp is, IMO, a red herring. That is, unless you crank it up....lots. EVERYONE without exception that buys panels and has lesser amps still likes them. The also all, without exception report better results with more power. Even my RB1070 of 130x2 at 8 and NO 4ohm rating...unless you count the bridged 8 ohm rating as 1/2 of that per channel into 4ohms, did OK until pushed. It was replaced with a 'd' amp of 500x2 which for sure gets the job done. However, I've never measured more than maybe 12vac to the speaker terminals. Even allowing for the fact that it is a 'slow' meter, I'm sure I've not exceeded say.....24vac which is nowhere near 'redline'...... Personally, I'm not into the Rotel house sound so I'm not the best judge.
Work on the 'cheap' stuff before starting down the 'swapping stuff until you go broke' path. I'm not a big fan of the tilt back, either. Image is impacted in a bad way. The panels when vertical just sound right, to me. Especially when I listen to the pole piece side. Tilt back brings more ceiling/floor bounce into the picture. don't forget that the way low sensitivity of the panels is mitigated by the line source / dipole behavior.
Don't forget there are 4 ways to place your panels. Tweeter in/out and pole piece front/rear.
Tweaking your room surroundings is good advice but on it's own that will not correct serious deficiencies in your upstream components. (a really poor room can ruin very good components, but in your situation it's the system matching of your pre amp and amp that is most likely causing 95% of your problem). I've auditioned the 1.6's and 1.7's extensively in my room and titling the panels back on their vertical axis should make a positive difference. If your amp is running out of power then the sound will harden and get bright. And, as I mentioned above the Emotiva is definitely bright.
I ultimately went with the 3.6's because they were a better match for my larger room and I felt that their top end was smoother overall than that of the 1.6's.
The Maggies are fantastic speakers and a true bargain at their prices (especially when you buy them used), but they absolutely require the best amplification and properly matched components.
1. Use the spacers on the stand screws to tilt the panels back. If you do not have the original spacers provided by Magnepan then use a properly sized washer. Angling the panels back a bit will help with the hot top-end
2. ABSOLUTLEY replace the Emotiva; this piece is too bright and forward to use with Magnepans. Switch to a well-balanced tube preamp if possible
Confirm that your power amp can and will double-down it's output power into the 1.6's; if it does not, then switch to an amp that will. All Magnepan speakers need high current and an abundance of watts to sound their absolute best.
NOBODY has suggested the cure which worked for me.
My 1.6s were bright, too. And very beamy. Too much toe and the highs were nearly unbearable, while the center image was razor sharp and little sound extended beyond the outside edges of the speakers. Tweeters in/out didn't make much difference. Toe OUT until the balance was right and you could get a hole in the middle effect.
The cure? 15 or so years ago, Magnepan started shipping with the Mylar forward, to the listener. I kid you not, when I suggest FLIPPING THE PANELS around to listen to the pole piece side. This will improve dispersion to the point that a wider toe angle will be fine.....I am at about 10 or 11 degrees which is about 3 1/2 inches difference between measures of inside and outside of the speaker to the 'front' wall. Widening the toe will take you out of the tweeter 'hot spot' on axis and improve image while providing fine center fill and a near wrap-around sound field.
Save all that expense of cable / amp / dac / seance stuff until you finish experimenting with speaker orientation and placement. At that point, some diffusion BEHIND and BETWEEN the speakers works wonders. At least you aren't running your Ferrari on Firestones.
Your problem is simple,you have Ferrari speakers running on WalMart tires.Providing you have the financial resources you most definitely should replace the source and the amp.Cable upgrades will help but improvements will be less than dramatic. I agree with others that have recommended room treatments. I've owned several Magnepan speakers and I can provide you with some recommendations for equipment upgrades if you care to flip me a pm.
There is a lot of good advice and good ideas here. The take home message is that most of what you have may not be the best match with the 1.7's.
I'm with Macdadtexas on the importance of good clean power. I use CAD 500 MB's with my Maggies. Unfortunately you are not going to spring 3-4K on an amp right now. You are trying to work on the cheap, so here is my hierarchy using mostly suggestions from the threads. Buy used to save money. Each one of these will help. 1) < $200 Deaden the corners, floor to ceiling. Glue Auralex panels to blue insulation pannels. You may be very surprised. 2) < $500 Promethius TVC volume control. I use a Promethius Ref 4 with my Maggies. You will want to watch the length of your IC's and use an amp with a reasonably high input impedence if possible. 3) < $700 I like the Eastern Electric DAC suggestion above. I've had Denon players with Maggies before and they were not a good match. 4) As Macdadtexas points out, you can do all of the above and still not completely fix the problem. But it sounds like you may need to wait a while before you can really get an amp that will do justice to the maggies. Just keep in mind that you are going to need to get the amp replaced at some point.
If you read all of the string, and know Maggies, the problem starts with the amp. Positioning et al is not going to change the fact that there's not enough juice to run the panels, and the other gear tends to brightness anyway.
I agree with Djcxxx. For example, if the bass is not right, that may cause them to sound too bright. Make what you have work to the best of its ability before you spend any money.
Well you sort of opened a Pandora's box when you asked this question. My advice, don't spend any money right now, especially on cables or power cords. First play w/ the speaker position and the see what you can do about the room interactions. Post the dimensions of the room, where the speakers stand in the room, and what you have behind the speakers. Start with the room and speaker placement before you buy anything else. You've got a speaker, for better or worse, that is sensitive to what's driving it; however, even w/ very high end equipment Mangepans can still perform well below par if they are not placed correctly. With some more detailed information about your room the folks here will help you optimize your acoustics, first priority.
I'm partial to Cary tube pre-amps, but I think the Prima Luna's are among the best deals in all of audio. Great, warm sound, at a reasonable price.
Also, older ARC and Mac gear that is less expensive sounds stellar as well. I like maggie with a tubed pre, and powerful amp. Mellows out the sound with the tubes and gives you great bass with the powerful amps.
I understand every system is different. In my case, I don't have luck in SS preamp. I always feel the sound is too bright and sometimes harsh. I tried upgrade cables, no significant improvement. I tried to change to another SS amp, no luck. I tried to add a DAC with tube buffer, no luck. Until I change to a tube preamp, I start to see the improvement. So, I would suggest to get a nice tube preamp. I am not sure what is your price range, tried to search for the thread for best tube preamp under $1000. I remember some of the suggestions are Mapletree 4 SE, AES DJH, PrimaLuna Prologue 3. I am using a PrimaLuna Prologue 3 now, very good preamp. But you need to pay attention to its very high output impedance and 12dB gain. You need an amp with at least 100k ohm input impedance.
Thanks for all the interesting suggestions, I guess I have at least a few weeks project ahead of me, experimenting.
If I were to change one of the electronics, to make things a little warmer, cd player / pre-amp / power amp which one would be the best bang for the buck, I cannot afford to change all three at present.
I would look at your source first,then I would dump the emotiva I had one for two weeks and sold it my old hafler sounded much better its not the maggies.Try and find a tube pre after looking at your source first.Do not bother with cables they can be changed later.I wish I had the maggies they are fantastic much better than the ones I had.
I took me two years to get my 1.6 set up . First i hung floor to ceiling curtains behind the speakers. This helped.Next i added "superchunk" bass traps in the 4 corners. Finally a full 4" wall treatment of OC panels behind the speakers .This tamed the highs significantly.Cost me around $200 for materials .$700 w bass traps. I had the anticables at one point and found them bright.Kimber Kable hero interconnects work well.Also 12tc speaker wire from KK.
Wow, I don't agree with any of these suggestions, and that's odd on A'gon. Your amp is bright, and not powerful enough to drive the panels. I suggest you try and find a used innersound ESL or a Wyred 4 sound 500. Also when i have heard the Emotiva gear it has sounded VERY bright.
1- new power cables - try shunyata viper only 100 bucks 2- new speakers cables - try regular radioshack cables 3- panels for sides and front wall - or heavy drapes on front wall 4- try hifi fuses on the speakers - I use them and love them 5- get a thick rug 6- make sure the sub is set properly sometimes its set to take the lows at too low a rate meaning have the sub only take on 40 and below pushing the lows to the speakers 7- change the size of the speakers in your denon - either from large to smallor or small to large 8- add a second sub
Of course all cables may sound different on different systems, however, I find Anti-Cables very flat in frequency transference..as a matter of fact, I tried almost every cost no object cables in my system, and Anti-Cables were the best. Magnapans are hard to drive and if the Rotel is having problems and clipping than you will hear what could be a bright sound. Replacing the Anti-Cables with Cardas for instance will get you a more mellow sound, but increase the "mud" along with it. Rotel amps are good for the money, but not the last word in performance. Maggies ARE good for the money AND in the upper reaches of performance.
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