lowrider,
In a late night daze, I ordered a pair of Fmods, made by Harrison Labs. I got them in a couple of weeks ago and they've been sitting in my truck ever since. With all of the talk of crossovers and such, I guess I thought I'd give them a try. Since getting them, though, I've decided that my little Minuets sound really good run full range, so here the Fmods sit, still in their package.
The ones that I have are the 70hz high pass model with a 12db per octave roll off on the low side. If you want to give them a try, I'll send them to you for the whopping price of the shipping. They were only $30 or so new and not worth my time trying to sell them.
If your setup can accommodate them, they just go inline between the pre and amp (or I supposed you can use them through a tape loup). Cutting the lows going to your amp might just be the ticket for you. And cheaply. |
I will give a bump to the Totem Rainmakers. I use them in my bedroom system with an HK990, and absolutely love them. I was using a pair of Quad 12L Active speakers, which were also excellent. Either of these will go down to 40hz cleanly, and can be purchased used within your budget.
The Magnepan MMG recommended earlier is also an excellent option.
Enjoy,
Mot |
thanks, Tonyangel for the explanation. Agree that an active crossover would work in a particular system. I understand that we're just tossing out ideas. |
Lowrider, I'm not talking about a passive inline crossover. This is just something that someone else brushed upon in another thread and the use of an active crossover was brought up.
Given B_limo's situation, it just seemed that adding an active cross over to the his system might allow him to side step getting rid of his speakers in favor of something that doesn't go as low.
Of course, we're just talking here and most of what I'm saying is just speculation, but whether a crossover will limit the flexibility of his system will depend on the roll off of the crossover.
If he goes with something with a steep roll off, like 24db per octave, it seems to me that high passing his speakers at 50 or 60hz would get him what he wants for his particular problem.
Believe me, I'm no expert on the subject, but it also seems to me that a steep crossover would not limit anything, but would possibly be a solution to his rather unique situation.
This thread just got of parallels something that I was discussing about my own system. |
Tonyangel- if you are talking about an inline passive crossover (which is an interesting thought), wouldn't this limit the flexibility of the bass roll-off in his system?
50 Hz sounds about right, but maybe 80 Hz would required. Maybe a "try and buy" type deal? |
Thanks Larry! I agree with what you said and maybe I should revisit the maggie idea as Elizabeth had another good point about them not putting out the kind of bass that really travels through walls so much.
I guess I could also check into a pair of crossovers; necer thought about that...
I did try plugging my ports but that didn't work so well.
I guess I could think about a pair of speakers that would just sound really good at low volumes.
I'm just confused at the moment about whats going to work best.
Hey, Tony, thanks for the input on the different silverlines! I appreciate the info. I'll check for your pm. Thanks! |
Larry makes an interesting point. If you have speakers that you like, why not just add a crossover. I was just looking into the model offered by Hsu.
I'm guessing that maybe the 50hz high pass module would do it. |
If you like your speakers, what you should be considering is some sort of highpass filter, or electronics with tone controls, to reduce the really low bass output.
As far as speaker choices, you should not necessarily be looking for speakers with restricted bass, but rather, you should be focussing on finding a speaker that sounds good to you at low volume. Some candidates include: The smallest Spendor monitor (preferably an older model), Proac tablette and the small Totem speakers. If you have room to place them correctly, the Magneplanar MMGs would be great for your purposes (dipole speakers, such as the Maggies and electrostatics do a better job of concentrating the sound in the listening area and reducing the amount of sound that bleeds into other rooms and are great for apartments, provided you have enough room).
I tend to like a number of high efficiency speaker systems (horn drivers and single drivers) for this purpose too, because these types of systems deliver a very lively midrange that is great for low volume listening. However, most decent systems of these types are WAY beyond your specified price range. If you or a friend have any DIY skills, a full range system built around the full range Tang Band driver would be pretty nice. |
Alright B_limo,
The "low bass?" confused me.
For less bass, you are all set with the amp/pre-amp/source.
Just get any pair of speaker between 82-88 db sensitivity and you should achieve the goal you are looking for. |
If you're looking at minuets, there are three models floating around. The latest are the Minuet Supreme Plus. The models before that were the Minuet Supreme and the then there is the first model, the plain old Minuet.
They are all ~9" tall and 5" wide. The original came wrapped in a vinyl veneer. The Supreme has a wood veneer. The original and Supreme are ~7" deep. The Plus added almost another 2" to the depth, making them go a bit deeper.
There were a couple of other adjustments. Listening to them side by side, you can tell minute differences.
I sent you a message. |
Yeah, I' gotten more recomendations for silverline minuets than any others. Guess I should pull the trigger on pair... |
KInd of like my suggestion with the Martin Logans "adequate" bass? |
I think we get it. I'll bet your system has enough gain and the small speakers suggested such as the Totem and Minuets would do well. They'll have tight bass and crossed-over higher that your towers. No low-end boom or rumble.
perfect example...
"Tonyangel
Since I just got into a couple of pairs of Minuets, I have to give a plug for the Silverlines. They have good bass, but they don't go low." |
Thanks for the help guys!
I'm a little confused about whether I am confused, or you guys are confused.
My amp has a sensitivity rating of 1.15v and my speakers are in the 90db sensitivity range; I really like the way my system sounds.
What I'm looking for is a pair of speakers that image well, have lots of detail, BUT THAT DON'T HAVE MUCH BASS OUTPUT!
I'm moving soon and don't want to bother my neighbors with bass transmission through the walls, so I'm trying to get good suggestions on speakers that image well, have lots of detail, AND THAT DON'T HAVE MUCH BASS.
I'm not trying to say that my current speakers don't have enough bass, what I'm looking for is a pair of speakers that don't put out much bass.
Please, no more suggestions on how to get more bass, I'm looking for some speakers that image well, have lots of detail, AND NOT MUCH BASS.
Image well, yes, detail, yes, Am I looking for more bass, no, AmI looking for less bass, yes!
Less bass, good, more bass, bad. |
B_limo,
We are again coming back to the "gain" topic. Trust me, I have seen what gain can do and why people complain about dull, lifeless music with passives. Once you balance the system with the right gain, you will be thoroughly rewarded with great music. Unfortunately, to do this in your system, it means changing your speakers or the amp. If you get a amp, make sure it has a max sensitivity of 1V. If you change the speakers, make sure they are at least 90+ db. There are many sensitive speakers - just research them. I would say at least 92+ db speakers will fit nicely in your system. |
I'm not saying to replace anything; what I mean is some of the techs on this thread have voiced this concern and maybe they can offer advice since it's all about system synergy.
(with more gain, you would get higher efficiency and not less bass; that's not the goal; you would have more control). |
So what you're telling me is that if I had more gain I'd get more detail, better imaging and less bass? Because that's what I'm after. And do you know how much gain I have in my system? Should I just replace my lightspeed attenuator, one of my favorite pieces? Ummm, okay... |
B_limo, knowing all the facts now I think most important is having enough gain from your system and damping the room as you have wisely decided.
I've lived in apartments (new construction) where neighbors complained about my TV thru their walls. |
Soix, thanks for the input regarding bass transmission, as I was thinking that the triple layer, green glue would help with bass. I think really what I need to do is just wait until I move in and then do some sound tests with my music playing and then go down in there bedroom to see how bad the situation is going to be.
I really don't get why home builders (especially custom home builders at the price point that this home is; $800-$1m?) don't spray insulation in the floor joists in an attempt to help withnoise transmission through walls, floors and ceilings. It sure would help homeowners enjoy thier homes more if thier teenagers pounding techno music (or in this case, my pounding techno music) throughout the whole house. I love techno / house music but I can totally understand how utterly annoying it is when all you can hear is "boom boom boom boom boom". |
B-limo,
Just wondering, why not simplify system since moving into smaller quarter?
Get an excellent quality integrated amp with tone controls ~ (adjust bass as you wish) +
loudness boost (for late night/low level listening) + built-in headphone amp (ready when
adding one). This, I believe will suit your purpose better, whilst giving more flexibility and
less clutter too (happy fiancé). Only then on to speakers later ~ when/if still needed.
Something like a Luxman / Accuphase / Mc Intosh unit would be nice. Just saying..
*Btw. House music with little bass is like living with no soul. So you still do need that bass
reserves for when no one's looking! ;) |
Now that you've upped your budget I think a used pair of Joseph Audio RM7XLs would be very worth consideration given what you're looking for.
Also, I don't think tripling the wall thickness will do much for your bass problem although it may help a bit with the mids and highs (especially if you use something like green glue between the layers). The walls will still be attached to the studs, which will still vibrate with the bass and transmit to the wall on the other side. Plus, depending on construction the beams in the floors and ceilings will also continue to transmit bass to the other room. Unless you're willing/able to install something like resilient channels in your walls and, significantly more difficult, also isolate the floor and ceiling I don't think you'll be able to attenuate the bass transmission enough to allow you to crank the music very loud if it contains significant bass. Sorry to be a bummer but that's my understanding of it and don't want to see you waste $$$ on something that won't work, but maybe others have suggestions. |
At the Newport Audio show the Silverline Minuets were displayed right next to the Prelude Plus models and though I only heard the Preludes, if the MInuets can play anything like their bigger brother, then your search has narrowed down quite a bit. All of the Totems I heard at the show did nothing for me, but most rooms didn't sound that good, save for a few. In fact, stuff that I know sounded good last year didn't hold up that well this time. The one room that completely floored me was the Pioneer room. Yes, the Pioneer room. This small floorstander was designed by Andrew Jones (think TAD) http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Speakers/Home+Theater+Speakers/SP-FS52 and had no right to sound as good as it did. Sure, it didn't do everything but they were musically satisfying and made me wish they were around when I first started this hobby. All the best, Nonoise |
Now you are in Green Moutain Europa territory...good place to be |
How good is the guys hearing? Maybe Totem Hawk or I do like the Silverline. Verity Tamino but I haven't seen them used in a year or so. Never heard the decapos but I think I'd like them. |
Oh, add to that short list 3a mm decapos. As you can see my budget is increasing. Lets just say $1500 or less! |
Thanks Everyone for your input! Much appreciated. I do read and consider all input; I know some posts take a bit to type out and that much thought and knowledge is given, silo thank you!
So, to answer a couple questions: my current speakers are kef qx5's and I've finally gotten my system all dialed in; it sounds great! Only problem is, in three months I'm getting married and will be moving in with her and she lives in a guest area of a home. She helps a man who is in a wheelchair, get ready in the mornings, and in return, he is gracious enough to give us a place to live, rent free! The room where we will have the stereo set up shares a wall with ghe home owner and we are on the second floor so sound will travel through our floor into the homeowners hallway ceiling also. Yhis is why I am looking for a nice pair of speakers WITHOUT MUCH BASS!!
I'm thinking Silverline Minuets (supreme plus??), Triangle Cometes (30th anniversary??) or kef ls50.
I think that I'll just go ahead and pay the $500 to triple up on the sheetrock between my back wall that is shared whit the homeowners bedroom wall just to help with bass transmission. |
B_limo,
I'm assuming that we're talking about an apartment environment. Right? What speakers do you have now? Is size a consideration?
I don't know about the LS50s. It seems that many of the reviews and owner comments revolve around the amount of bass that the LS50s produce, which is something that the OP is trying to avoid.
I recommended the Minuets because they are small, and thus, are limited by their size in the bass department. I do, however, have to qualify this by saying that although the Minuets are small, they are not, in the least, bass shy. No, they do not go low, but they do produce what they can with pretty good authority.
Maybe your answer would be to get a pre amp with tone controls so that you can dial down the bass. Or perhaps you could check out some of NHT's offerings. Unless I'm mistaken, they offer a couple of smaller models that are of the sealed variety, although the models that I've tried didn't even come close to the quality of the music coming from the Minuets. |
Other than the $700 budget, the OP's requirements practically scream for the KEF LS50. Stereophile rated this a Class A (limited LF) recommended component. This is unprecedented for a $1500 (list) speaker. Basically it is a true Class A performer from around 80 Hz on up, and with the inherent dynamics limitations. But in everything the OP is looking for--clarity, detail, imaging, soundstage--the LS50 is just about state-of-the-art (according to the reviews). As for whether it has too much bass for his room, you can't know that until you try it. The LS50 may have been too bassy for Seikosha's room but not necessarily for the OP's. As for bloated bass in a ported speaker, that's pretty easy to attenuate--stuff a sock in it! Or, more accurately, roll up a small towel or wash cloth and put it into the port. You can attenuate the bass by how loosely or tightly you stuff the port and also by how far you place the speakers from the wall behind them. And if you shop around, you can get a pair for close to your budget. Read the Stereophile review. They compared the LS50 side-by-side with the Rogers LS3/5a and B&W CM5 and they exhibited more clarity than the Rogers in upper bass, less total bass extension than the CM5, but equaled or bettered both in imaging, soundstage, and midrange, especially in both male and female vocals. Reviewer John Atkinson said in part:
At the start of the review period, I was in Los Angeles producing the vocal sessions for the opera Cooperstown, composed by Positive Feedback Online contributor Sasha Matson. At the end of the review period, Sasha sent me a CD with some test mixes. Listening to our two sopranos, Julie Adams and Carin Gilfry, and comparing what I was hearing through the KEFs with my memory of what I'd heard live at Bill Schnee Studio, I would go so far as to say that the LS50 is one of the finest speakers at reproducing female voices that I have heard—for less than what you can pay for a set of high-end interconnects!
|
Oh, I forgot to mention System Audio 505s. Another tiny pair of speakers, similar in size to the Minuets. I ultimately traded those for a pair of Minuets because they were a bit picky about placement. Well, maybe not picky, since I can't consider a speaker not wanting to be on a shelf picky; but they didn't like being in an entertainment center.
If you can find some 505s used, they go for about $400. |
Bvdiman, sorry, I only sell ton. No kgs. That is low volume :-) |
Milpai, he doesn't want ton. Few kg's are enough. ;) |
B_limo,
I was out the rest of the weekend and could not reply earlier. I have exactly understood your question. But since I have gone through the same experience, I still feel that it is the "gain" you are missing. A good gain makes "night" and "day" difference during listening. Most of Niel Diamond and Joni Mitchell CDs that are very well recorded, did not have "body" in my system, till I got the correct gain. Now there is ton of body and bass! |
Depending on your room...you probably could get away with small 5in type monitor...Dynaudio 42, BBC/Spendour variations, Proac, etc...European/UK models tend to fall in this group...quick but somewhat lean bass...which beats overly warm, bloated bass in my book...Sonus Faber Concertino from a few years back would be my first choice in your range used...or the Monitor AUdio Studio 2 from the same era...good luck |
rega rs1 sounds like they're just what you're looking for. |
Hi B_limo,
First thing about the LS50's is that they are way over your $700.00 budget, even on the used market. Out of the speakers I have right now, they are probably the most inappropriate for your requirements. They like to play a little louder than the others, they sound the "biggest" and they have the most bass. They also seem to be fairly room sensitive as well, not so much for tonal balance but for proper imaging; getting that center image "spot on" for me is trickier with the LS50's vs. others. Quite possibly it's my room though and not a trait of the speakers.
They are certainly very nice speakers, and I wish I could hear them in a different bigger room than what I have. Compared to the Harbeths they do have a lighter more direct presentation and every once in awhile, I wonder if they are just the tiniest bit bright but then other times I think..."this is a great implementation of a metal tweeter, it sounds so natural" Driver integration between the tweeter and the woofer is really really good too. Lastly as the music gets bigger and louder, the Kefs do best (out of my speakers) of going along with the demands.
As I mentioned previously, there are a lot of good small speakers out there and system interaction, rooms and personal bias' will determine what's best for you and what one person loves, just might not hit your buttons as much as something else.
Hope that helps, good luck and let us know what you decide on. |
Seikosha, you mentioned ls 50's which is one I forgot about but also am intrested in; how do those stack up against minuets? I'll check into those omega super 3's also, thanks for the tip!
Seems like minuets keep coming up...
I'm a little surprised triangle cometes didn't come up...
House music: booka shade, hernan cattaneo, james zabiela... |
The sound it makes as it settles in the night. |
|
06-02-13: Nonoise
I just got back from the Newport Audio show and if you can stretch your budget another $100, there was the Martin Logan Motion 15 that made more than adequate bass and sounded pretty good for a monitor. Actually more than pretty good. ...
The sound attracted my from out in the hall and at first I thought it was their electrostatic panel speaker with the built in sub playing. The Martin Logan Motion series uses the same type of folded ribbon tweeter as the GoldenEar products. This is a very extended and natural sounding HF transducer, and works well in both products. Emotiva also uses them in their powered monitor Pro series, but since you have a Classe amp, I didn't mention them. Point being that this 21st century realization of the Heil air motion transformer is gaining some traction in speaker design. |
Tekton should be on your list to consider. |
Magnepan MMG!
$500, money back guarantee with return, purchase direct from manufacturer!
Will not disturb people next door! Plenty of detail, imaging, and great midrange.
A no brainer choice! |
I just got back from the Newport Audio show and if you can stretch your budget another $100, there was the Martin Logan Motion 15 that made more than adequate bass and sounded pretty good for a monitor. Actually more than pretty good. I don't know how it would sound in the long run but if you can audition it, it might be worth it.
The sound attracted my from out in the hall and at first I thought it was their electrostatic panel speaker with the built in sub playing.
All the best,
Nonoise |
All the stars are aligned with your electronics for you to just pick the speakers you want, we just had a shoot out yesterday at our monthly Ason audio society meeting of a hand full of small book shelf speaker from $400 to $4.5k and the Silverline Minuets came out on top, judged by a around 25 people, all so called audiophiles. I was surprised just how full bodied they were for the size.
The sensitivity 2.1v of your Z dac is a great match for your Lightspeed Attenuator and the Classe's input impedance 75kohm and sensitivity of 1.5v so you will have an abundance of spare gain, it is also a great match for the Z dac and Lightspeed combined.
Cheers George |
Since I just got into a couple of pairs of Minuets, I have to give a plug for the Silverlines. They have good bass, but they don't go low. Just for reference, when I run a sub for music that would benefit from it, I run my sub crossed over at 55hz, although I have been running the Minuets without the sub for the most part.
The funny thing about the Minuets is that you can spend time with placement, setting them up to sound their best; but I've also found that I've been really hard pressed to make them sound bad. They sound good no matter where I put them. Mine are sitting on shelves in an entertainment center.
I've had Paradigm Studio 10s and 20s and in my room, the Minuets sound much better. They put out a nice sound stage and have yet to hear them get edgy. I know that this is said a lot in reference to small speakers, but these really do sound a lot bigger than they really are.
For your budget, you can get a pair of Minuet Supreme Pluses brand new. You might also want to consider the ERA D4 and D5. |
I've been through quite a few models of bookshelf speakers over the past few years. I've had a couple of NHT models, a couple of PSB's the Epos Epic 1 and for the past few months, I'd kind of settled with 3 speakers that I was rotating in and out of the system, the Harbeth P3, the Kef LS50 and the little Silverline Minuets.
The Minuets are fun speakers. With the right music, they really can do some magic, but you have to be aware that they can fall apart fast with the wrong material. When I have them running, it's not uncommon for me to put something on, smile, shake my head and just think...nope, they are just not going to pull that off. Remember, this is a little 3.25 inch driver in a very small cabinet. However, with most stuff and within volume limitations, they can produce some wonderful sounds with a nice little sound stage and tight imaging and that is what has driven me to keep them despite also having the Kefs and Harbeths.
Just this past week, I've had a new speaker come in that is starting to give me everything the Minuet does but on a larger scale. It's a single driver Omega Super 3XRS. The speaker is still breaking in, but it's really starting to sing and I'm starting to think that this may be the one that brings me to selling all the other speakers. It's that good.
Being a single driver design, it does run out of steam earlier than the Harbeths or Kefs, but can handle bigger and louder music than the little Silverlines and would be a great speaker for those not looking to bother their neighbors. The detail and imaging of them is the best I've ever heard in my room by a good margin. If you have a way to hear them locally, I think they'd be worth a listen as they do make models in your price range.
That said, one thing I've learned is that the state of small speakers these days is so good, it's not hard to find something that sounds good, in fact, it'd probably be harder to find something that sounds bad as long as you go with one of the well recommended models. |
|
You asked in your other thread about the Totem Rainmaker. Audition them if possible; 4 ohm but easy to drive, detailed, tight bass, very impressive. About $1000 I think. |
I recommend auditioning the GoldenEar Aon 2. They retail new w/warranty at $800/pair, so you can probably get them within budget, but they need stands. They are a good match for your needs in several ways, including your driving electronics: o Unlike most small speakers, they are fairly sensitive at 89 dB. The passive preamp shouldn't be a problem to get reasonable listening levels. o Their recommended amplifier power is 10-200 watts, so they can absorb a lot of power from your Classe amp. In addition, they have a fast but extremely smooth folded ribbon tweeter responsive out to 35Khz. This indicates a very fast rise time, which translates into upper treble detail that helps define images and soundstage, not to mention getting the full spectrum of overtones that define timbral accuracy. The GoldenEar tweeter is a revelation; it is so devoid of overshoot and ringing you'll realize how much of these distortions we've been trying to ignore up to now. The bass/mid driver is likewise very fast and responsive. The front of the speaker is small and tapered to make for better imaging. The cabinet has no parallel lines to minimize cabinet resonances. All these factors contribute to better detail and a lower noise floor. They are capable of good bass without being gassy, and stand-mounted speakers will not leak bass to the neighbors as easily because the bass waves won't be reinforced by--and travel along--the floor so much. Rave reviews abound for these speakers. Many are for the big brother Aon 3, but they share the same design and exact same tweeter. They are also widely distributed so you should have little trouble getting auditioning them. When you do, however, make sure the dealer hooks them up to high quality electronics; the speakers are so affordable some dealers hook them up to a mass market receiver, and when that happens, the Aons reveal the shortcomings of the receiver. |
There are a pair of Paradigm Studio 20s active version (built-in amps) that would be *perfect* for your needs. All you need is a preamp or universal player with volume control to drive them, Seller is asing a very reasonable $800 for the pair...
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/monitors-paradigm-reference-active-20-black-finish-2013-05-04-speakers-75087-heath-tx
-RW- |
"With a budget of $700 for used, I would recommend you listen to some smaller Proacs, maybe some of the Tablettes and if you can find a 1SC (great speaker) near your price level."
That would have been my first choice but I think it will be hard to come by used and within budget. |
