Looking for amp advice (punk, rock & reggae edition)
Records over gear is the sensible answer... too many nerds here w/ a 20K system and a lonely copy of Steely Dan’s ‘Aja’ and like 20 other records. I recommend Bend Sinister ‘Tape2’ LP https://homelessrecords.bandcamp.com/album/tape2 |
Source isn’t changing this year. Speakers stay. Spent $1500 on power amp (A-A/B @110wpc) Once funds are available: $1600 on preamp (tube hybrid?) Schiit Sys will fill in until funds make the preamp happen. After amp burn in I’ll change speaker cables and source interconnects (most likely a flavor of either Belden or Cardas). Only interconnect looking at now is to connect amp and pre. Should be complete by end of the year. I feel confident this will be better than anything I had been pondering for the last 6 months. |
WARNING: i am a dealer. It is a matching issue sonically. Focal are bright and Marantz is grainy and thin. All digital amps are for that matter, Add to the fact that Audioquest has a metallic sparkle in the top end throws fuel on the fire. Amps that will fix this. (I only sell half of these brands to be fair) Parasound Halo Odysee Wells Audio Musical Design (don't be fooled by the simple design) Older Classe before the curved face plates VSP labs Bedini (don't be fooled by low power ratings) Jeff Rowland (over priced but a good match) Lazurus Meitner David Berning Ayre Stay away from Krell, Levinson, Aragon, Theta, Proceed, Adcom, Pilinius, newer Coda, Threshold, and anything digital. |
@gochurchgo: So you bought a new system .... what system? sorry I did not see this thread before. Hope you get what you are looking for, but will add my 2c. I know this sounds ...... but in order to improve your system and really get the most out of it, it is recommended: 1. Budget: 25% on source, %35 on Pre/Amp, %25 on speakers. %15 on cables. Budgeting $2500 on pre/amp for $800 speakers and $50 cables is out of whack, generally speaking. Most ppl balance the SQ of their system from source to speakers in order to optimize the flow of a HIGH QUALITY electronic sound signal. What I have learned in 10 years of this hobby is that you cant squeeze blood out of a rock. Your system will ONLY sound as good as the weakest piece of equipment in your audio chain from source to speakers. 2. The quality of your music will not get better with a limited-quality TT, phono preamp, or Amp. I have the Ortofon 2m Blue, that is good, probably your Pioneer deck is fine, but not the quality to match the Focals or the new $2500 amperage you are paying for. 3. Recommend spending more on a higher quality source (yes, i know, your phono pre is a giant killer, that is good) but then it is running through some low end AQ cables. That is probably why you are getting high frequencies that are bright to your ears and fatiguing to listen to. Get better cables. If you like AQ, that is fine, but move up the chain. The cables are constricting your sound from the TT/phono. You could use a $10k TT and run them through a $50 AQ cable, and it will sound like crap. Apply the same concept from Preamp to Amp and Amp to speakers. there has to be a constant flow of a HIGH QUALITY electrical signal. if the signal diminishes along the way (cables, phone, pre, etc) then THE SIGNAL WILL NEVER GET BETTER BEFORE IT REACHES YOU EARS. It will only degrade, or change flavors depend on other electronics in the chain of sound to the speakers. 4.The Focals are good, but the Marantz is small potatoes with 45 w Class D. I have listened to it, I was not impressed, it was weak, boggy, poor detail retrieval. BUT, BTW, Class D will run those Focals as said above, but you have to have the right Class D. Takes research. Bel Canto. NuForce. Red Dragon. check them out. They will give you base in spades with a slightly warm sound that will still make your skin crawl even when you throw on the Dead Kennedy’s. 5. Solid state amps: When I read your post, I heard distant screaming: "SimAudio". known for clean, robust amplification with a full bottom end. This is what they are known for in the industry. their Amp sound used to be more clean and "clinical". BUT not the amps of the last 5-8 years: sound is clean, clear, but has a fluidity that it never really had before. that is why I think that it would mate well with the slightly warm vocals. Consider a integrated Naim amp, "only 50 watts", but they have conservatively rated their power output for decades, more like 100 watts +. you can get a 5s-i or 5s-2 for a paltry $800 and will last forever, though might need to be "recapped" with capacitors after a decade or two. Naim sound is as clean and clear, highly resolving, like the SimAudio, but more balanced sound from top to bottom, but not a little extra bass like the Sim. I’ve owned all these amps. Sim would be like the 220 model or the 340 model. e.g If I used the Naim in your system I would ’warm up’ the source a bit (and get rid of those AQ cables, sorry) then run through the sim in to the Focals to balance the sound and get a little bit of warmth that you said you wanted. 6. Tube amps: yes, will work well, but synergy is the key. Perhaps a PrimaLuna integrated? The Dialogue Premium Integrated would do well, but it is $3300 new. could find a used one for probably $2200. I recommend this amp b/c I have its Big Brother version, the HP/High Powered amp. But they have other lower cost integrateds that would be very good as well, check out Upscale Audio website for more info. One of the owners of Upscale is part owner of PrimaLuna. I liked the suggest of the Vincent hybrid 237, and would second that. A hybrid system would work well with the Focals. But not the early Pathos hybrids- they lack the guttural "AttacK" that you need for punk, rock. i dont want you to second guess your recent purchase, but the next step would be to upgrade your source and cables, otherwise you are bottlenecking the SQ of your system. best of luck. let us know what you decide |
New system sourced. Over budget but since I elected to go separates I’ll try to be patient (ha) and pick things up one at a time. Firm game plan: Staying with same brand for amp/pre for synergy. Schiitt Sys is on its way to stand in for the preamp (figured this will be valuable should I decide to make a preamp upgrade down the line). Power amp ordered. Before end of year I will have a better system than I would ever conceived. Excited. Researching a decent interconnect to tie the prea and amp together under $150. I want to set it and forget it. After break in, I'll start upgrading cables to "finish off" the system. Then enjoy it without pouring paychecks on it. In a few weeks the Marantz is going to be listed. Good amp, didn’t work out for me I guess. Live and learn. I’ll be happy when everything is in its right place. I’d rather buy records than gear. |
I would advise u to get a class"A" bias amp. They run a little hot, but the pay off is great. Think of a dragster on the start line. You rev the motor up to a high RPM, then pop the clutch. Now think of a car on that same starting line at idle. Thats one difference in a class "A" amp. A class "A" amp amp is always "wide open", vs a class b or class d amp. You can get a used one on this site, at times. You can never have too much power. Most listening is done with lower wattage, but u need that extra high current/high wattage, to reproduce those snare drum cracks and cymbal crashes. Look for an older Krell KMA 160, or something along that line. Those are monoblocks, which u can place close to your speaker and have short speaker cable runs. The caps may need replacing, which can run into high dollars, but if u try them, don't think you'll ever be disappointed. High current and quick response is what you're looking for. |
I recently heard some Focals in DC. Agree with your asses,ENT about the sound. I listened to them with a Naim Uniti Star, 70 wpc. It was lovely and detailed but I prefer a more relaxed sound. I have Wyred 4 Sound ST500 mk II. It is class D which may rub you the wrong way but I have thoroughly enjoyed it. 250 wpc. They also make a 500 wpc version. I listen to all kinds of music with it. Ska, electronic, jazz, acoustic guitar, rock, whatever my 8 & 10 year old daughters want. I have some KEF LS 50s which can be hard to drive. No issues. Way below your price range too boot! Made in USA. If if you want a step up from there they make SX 1000 R monoblocks. TAS editors choice two years in a row if you care about accolades. Reviews are pretty compelling. Finally, if you want to go integrated they make that too. Finally, finally, have fun! |
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So the fact that the speaker impedance is at its lowest in the midbass (4.2ohms at 118hz) and that I am not getting the mid bass I feel I should be getting is not related?Yes. As I mentioned earlier, the speaker is an easy load for a tube amp, and I would *expect* that a solid state amp would be able to handle low impedances better than a tube amp... IME experience many less expensive class D amps like the Marantz just don't do bass very well so its my opinion that is what you are hearing. The Big Clue is that it starts to sound better when you turn it up. If it really couldn't handle the load, if anything it would get worse as you turned it up. |
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It may simply be that you don't like how your amp sounds on this speaker, but the idea that it does not drive the speaker correctly is simply not true. So the fact that the speaker impedance is at its lowest in the midbass (4.2ohms at 118hz) and that I am not getting the mid bass I feel I should be getting is not related? |
Huge punk and reggae fanboy and here is what rocks my office daily for about 6 hours a day (get ready to laugh but it works): - TubeCube 7 _roughly 7 WPC from the 4ohm taps ($180 standard tubes & power cord) - Energy A3+2 (free from a body of mine) - Maverick Audio Tube Magic D1 ($250 with upgraded tube and OpAmps) When the weather is cool enough, I break out the Dynakit ST-70 for a few hours (KT 88s). Both setups hit the mids you are looking for. |
I think its current as a large section of the impedance curve is closer to 4ohm than 8 ohm.Current is not the issue here. If the amp can make the power, the current is present. This is because power cannot exist without current. The power formula is Power = Current x Voltage. Now the idea that the speaker is 'voltage driven' is verbal shorthand for the fact that the designer of the speaker expects the amp to behave as a voltage source (otherwise amps would not be called 'power amps'...). The amp does not need to double power into half the impedance to be a proper voltage source!! If the amp has sufficient negative feedback (and it does) the amp will simply be limited to 60 watts in the 4 ohm portions, and the higher impedances will see less power; half of that if double the impedance. It may simply be that you don't like how your amp sounds on this speaker, but the idea that it does not drive the speaker correctly is simply not true. IOW your amp has plenty of current to do the job. The current is not the problem! In that regard, a class A amplifier is a good suggestion, not because it might be able to make any more power or have more 'current'; it might simply be that it sounds better. Many (cheaper) class D amps don't do so well in the bass as far as sonics go, while all the time having the specs needed to drive the speaker! If you are on a budget and 30-40 watts is enough power, you might want to try a tube amp on this speaker and see what you think. A Dynaco ST-70 should do the job and they are not particularly pricey. You may find that tube amps make better bass than you thought- I've seen many that put many class D amps to shame. |
Good discussion. Speaking of class A amps, I just bought a tube integrated that runs in class A and with only 10wpc it delivers a dynamic full-bodied lush sound driving a pair of 90dB/1m/1w speakers in my small listening room. Something about the circuit running full-bore all the time that just sounds warm and full. It does get hot so it needs to live in open space. I would not however recommend this set up for your type of music. I think an amplifier that doubles the power as the load is halved should work for you, class A or AB, and almost all solid state class A amps can do that trick. |
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No.... You're not understanding this problem right at all. Stop thinking about this as a wattage problem. Wattage is an abstraction and those calculators you linked to are not at all telling you what you need to know. Focal speakers are designed to be driven by a voltage source. That's how their sensitivity is described. Efficiency per watt is a very useless measure except for very, very benign loads. For the purpose of this discussion ignore watts completely. We're talking voltage source amps for voltage driven speakers so let's talk voltage and sort out the current next. Once you understand your voltage demands based on the speaker's sensitivity, then we can plug in it's impedance and determine the current demand. Only after we know the voltage and current requirements can we calculate the wattage, which may or may not make any difference based on the class and topology of the amp. OK, I'm with it. So I need to know the amp's voltage delivery and the speaker's voltage requirement right? Here is something interesting, a spec sheet thats different than the one I got in the box. https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/chorus_807v_w-specification_s... Interestingly it has a RMS wattage rating which mine does not (not to harp on wattage - this is interesting though). I can't find either of these two metrics for either product. But I did learn the RMS for the speakers is 110 and thats more than 2x what I'm giving it. Also that the lowest impedance point is 4.2 ohms at 118hz (mid bass!). AM I on the right path? My thought has been all along that its the bottoming out of the impedance at 4.2 in the mid bass spectrum thats to blame for this. And from what I've read (right or not) is that the only way to combat the impedance is to drive through it with more current, not necessarily wattage. |
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Well, according to this link I need 47 watts https://geoffthegreygeek.com/calculator-amp-speaker-spl/ According to this one I need 130.4 http://headphoneaddict.com/power-calculator/ According to this one 90-300 watts if I understand correctly http://rftech.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/24/~/determining-power-needed-for-speakers Focal’s recommended power rating is 25 - 175 wpc. The second one makes sense both by the way its laid out and that it would put my need in the center of the suggested wattage by the manufacturer. I don't think wattage is the issue though. Wattage is loudness. It gets plenty loud. I think its current as a large section of the impedance curve is closer to 4ohm than 8 ohm. The little power supply here isn't faring well with the impedance curve and the phase angle (-40degrees according to Stereophile). |
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A little while ago I moved up from a 2x45 watt Quad 303 to a 2x140 watt Quad 606-2 (both driving relatively inefficient Quad 2805s in a pretty large listening room). The biggest benefit was a cleaner and more dynamic sound. The old Q303 had clearly been asked to do more than it was made for. It has persuaded me to put a pair of 2x260 watt QMP monoblocks on my wish list. Unless you are into boutique amplifiers, power does not necessarily cost much. Take a look at the excellent Pxx00s series of Yamaha Pro Audio amplifiers. The series has now been discontinued, so with a bit of luck you can get a real bargain. See here for an exhaustive test of the 2x350 watt P3500s: http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/amplificateurs-de-puissance-haute-fidelite/mesures-ampli-yamaha-p... |
Not really the right person to ask on indepth technical stuff. Yes you get a 3db increase every time you double the power in theory, everything else being equal So amp2 would not be 10db more, in theory, 45 doubled to 90 would be 3db, then 90 doubled to 180 would be 3 more db. So 150w would be more like 5db extra I think.......... Please correct me if that is incorrect |
@uberwaltz That being said they were never ever driven with less than 150wpc amps with current to spare........ I am currently eyeing an amp thats 150wpc but my concern is how much louder it will be like once you leave "0" on the volume haha. That company also makes a 100 or 110 watt amp thats not as sexy but probably more realistic. When I think about it though, the extra 40-50 watts its only 3db more right? My amp: 45wpc amp1: 100-110wpc amp2: 150wpc Wouldn’t amp 2 be pretty much 10db louder? If so then, when I clean house I am usually playing around 85db max. Sounds like a touch of overkill but not too bad. My speakers are rated 25-175wpc after all. |
If you really want to make those Focals sing I would seriously look into a Pass INT30A but it is a bit beynd your budget (around $3500 used). I used one for awhile driving my 1008Be's before moving on to a pair of Pass xa100.5's and it is excellent. Before the Pass I used a Cary SLI-80F1 hence my recommendation and it did a fine job but not as good as the Pass. Chuck |
@gochurchgo. I know you say you have experimented hugely with position but here is my experience of the 807v. I must have spent at least 6 hours moving them in tiny increments to get the best possible sq in my listening seat. This includes distance from walls, toe in and critically the upright angle. The latter may have been because I had raised them onto 2" thick maple blocks which them subsequently raised the tweeters in relation to my ears. But after carefully lowering the front adjusters on each speaker i was able to dial in a really sweet spot that really was by means of very finite 1/2" adjustments in position, yes they were that finicky to set up in my room. However the rewards were well worth it. That being said they were never ever driven with less than 150wpc amps with current to spare........ |
@kosst_amojen I have to ask: while searching in the speaker forum here you commented about these speakers needing "good class a power to make them shine" and also: " Robust solid state power is what those speakers like, especially class A power. I’m driving my 936’s with 40 watts, but the F5 will keep doubling it’s output until the outputs melt. Might this be the position I am in? Not so much wattage but current deficit? Also, in a few other Focal CHorus threads, people like @georgehifi and others threw out suggestions, all of which were minimum 180wpc. Not trying to argue, just sort of trying to translate what I'm reading. :) |
There are two options I have that I think would be great matches with your budget and speakers: Thanks. Why would these be a good fit? Have you heard them with my particular speakers? |
There are two options I have that I think would be great matches with your budget and speakers: Dayens Ecstasy III - 100 WPC integrated that offers refined sound with a natural ease to the music. Retail is $2,200. https://www.audiothesis.com/ecstasy-iii MastersounD BoX - 35 WPC single-ended el34 tube integrated that is about to release. It includes remote and phono. Retail is $3,000. http://mastersoundsas.it/1/integrated_amplifiers_4432640.html |
Ha! Guess that base is well covered! Maybe a different amp is what you need. Not necessarily more power though. I was thinking that an amp that doubled its wattage at 4 ohms having more current vs more wattage. I went to my local Focal dealer and the only word that dude new was "McIntosh". Zero help Clearly buying a speaker everyone says is very good but no one seems to have was a mistake. |
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Try moving each one in 8 inches. I’ve moved them from about touching to 30" from the front wall in 2" steps. I’ve moved them closer together. Further apart. On a different wall. The closer to the front wall the more boomy the bass gets but while there is more midbass its woody and muddy sounding. I literally cannot think of a place shy of the bathroom where they haven’t been. I mean that seriously. |
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I measured the Focal Chorus 807V with its grille removed. Its voltage sensitivity on the tweeter axis was significantly higher than the average I have measured over the years, at an estimated 90dB(B)/2.83V/m, though this is a little lower than the 92dB specified. Though its impedance drops to 4.1 ohms at the bottom of the midrange, and there is a combination of 5.8 ohms magnitude and –40° electrical phase angle at 120Hz (fig.1), overall the speaker is a fairly gentle load for the partnering amplifier to driveThis is from Stereophile if it makes any sense. So what do I do here? |
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