@erik_squires I’m running class d now and it’s not working out.
Looking for amp advice (punk, rock & reggae edition)
My current amp isn’t doing it for me. Marantz pm6005 which is class D @45 wpc. Speakers are Focal Chorus 807V. It’s very detailed but a little clinical, my biggest gripe is a lack of midbass. According to Stereophile the impedance curve dives to 4 ohm between 100 and 200 hz which is where I think I the problem lies. All indications are that more power is needed to corrrct this which seems plausible as the more volume I give it the more it fills in in that range. The problem is that apartment living doesn’t allow 100db listening sessions.
So, I’m looking for an amplifier (separates or integrated) that has the current needed to round out the sound. The speakers are staying for many more years so replacing them isn’t a viable option, plus I love the sound.
Im interested in going tube but I have no experience with tubes. I have so many questions regarding tubes it could probably be it’s own thread but it seems to me that people love these more than SS on the whole. I’m open to any suggestions though.
My budget is $2500 (used ok but prefer new)
I listen to punk, post punk, lots of reggae (specifically dub), some electronic, a little jazz and some jangle pop (think REM).
Im looking for a warm side of neutral sound with good detail that can keep its composure with fast music yet be gentle enough for jazz. I like bass, if there’s an 808 or that dubby bass guitar, I want to hear it. These speakers do a nice job when the signal is right.
My analog front end is a PDC with a 2M Blue through a Lounge LCR MKIII. All interconnects are AQ Evergreen.
Thanks
So, I’m looking for an amplifier (separates or integrated) that has the current needed to round out the sound. The speakers are staying for many more years so replacing them isn’t a viable option, plus I love the sound.
Im interested in going tube but I have no experience with tubes. I have so many questions regarding tubes it could probably be it’s own thread but it seems to me that people love these more than SS on the whole. I’m open to any suggestions though.
My budget is $2500 (used ok but prefer new)
I listen to punk, post punk, lots of reggae (specifically dub), some electronic, a little jazz and some jangle pop (think REM).
Im looking for a warm side of neutral sound with good detail that can keep its composure with fast music yet be gentle enough for jazz. I like bass, if there’s an 808 or that dubby bass guitar, I want to hear it. These speakers do a nice job when the signal is right.
My analog front end is a PDC with a 2M Blue through a Lounge LCR MKIII. All interconnects are AQ Evergreen.
Thanks
Showing 38 responses by gochurchgo
I wish there was a “like” button here. Some really good suggestions. @uberwaltz I’m definitely to look more at the Hegel. You’re the second to recommend and you have had them with my speakers so that put them higher on the list. so much more to research haha. Awesome. My OCD is in overdrive. to those who suggested Hegel, how would you suggest the Hegel house sound? |
The way you describe it sounds like its more of a room problem. Have you tried moving the speakers a bit?OMG yes. Every way I can even if it was an idiotic arrangement for a living room. I did everything but glue speakers to the ceiling. The biggest difference was starting the speakers 30" from the front wall and moving backwards in 2" increments. The thing is that I have a wall 3' on the left side of the left speaker but the right wall is 22' away (dining room). I know this drastically affects things but there's no way to fix that. Also, I had read that if you stand directly between the 2 speakers you'll hear what they are putting out and then you need to make changes to their position to get that same sound in the sitting position. The hole in my midbass is evident when standing between the speakers. They are easy to drive but the impedance curve drops to just above 4 ohms in that frequency range. The Stereophile review was done using a 100wpc tube amplifier so I have been looking at more power to fill in the holes. |
So like mine, yours dive from the lower mids through to the bass. I have bass. But no midbass (until I start getting volume north of 90db). I don’t think I have a power issue so much as a current issue. Whats your take on it? Stereophile reviewd your speakers with a min 75 watt amp. Stereophile did mine with 100 tubes. If that makes any difference. My amp currently is 45wpc at 8 ohms and 60wpc at 4 ohms |
I measured the Focal Chorus 807V with its grille removed. Its voltage sensitivity on the tweeter axis was significantly higher than the average I have measured over the years, at an estimated 90dB(B)/2.83V/m, though this is a little lower than the 92dB specified. Though its impedance drops to 4.1 ohms at the bottom of the midrange, and there is a combination of 5.8 ohms magnitude and –40° electrical phase angle at 120Hz (fig.1), overall the speaker is a fairly gentle load for the partnering amplifier to driveThis is from Stereophile if it makes any sense. So what do I do here? |
Try moving each one in 8 inches. I’ve moved them from about touching to 30" from the front wall in 2" steps. I’ve moved them closer together. Further apart. On a different wall. The closer to the front wall the more boomy the bass gets but while there is more midbass its woody and muddy sounding. I literally cannot think of a place shy of the bathroom where they haven’t been. I mean that seriously. |
There are two options I have that I think would be great matches with your budget and speakers: Thanks. Why would these be a good fit? Have you heard them with my particular speakers? |
Ha! Guess that base is well covered! Maybe a different amp is what you need. Not necessarily more power though. I was thinking that an amp that doubled its wattage at 4 ohms having more current vs more wattage. I went to my local Focal dealer and the only word that dude new was "McIntosh". Zero help Clearly buying a speaker everyone says is very good but no one seems to have was a mistake. |
@kosst_amojen I have to ask: while searching in the speaker forum here you commented about these speakers needing "good class a power to make them shine" and also: " Robust solid state power is what those speakers like, especially class A power. I’m driving my 936’s with 40 watts, but the F5 will keep doubling it’s output until the outputs melt. Might this be the position I am in? Not so much wattage but current deficit? Also, in a few other Focal CHorus threads, people like @georgehifi and others threw out suggestions, all of which were minimum 180wpc. Not trying to argue, just sort of trying to translate what I'm reading. :) |
@uberwaltz That being said they were never ever driven with less than 150wpc amps with current to spare........ I am currently eyeing an amp thats 150wpc but my concern is how much louder it will be like once you leave "0" on the volume haha. That company also makes a 100 or 110 watt amp thats not as sexy but probably more realistic. When I think about it though, the extra 40-50 watts its only 3db more right? My amp: 45wpc amp1: 100-110wpc amp2: 150wpc Wouldn’t amp 2 be pretty much 10db louder? If so then, when I clean house I am usually playing around 85db max. Sounds like a touch of overkill but not too bad. My speakers are rated 25-175wpc after all. |
Well, according to this link I need 47 watts https://geoffthegreygeek.com/calculator-amp-speaker-spl/ According to this one I need 130.4 http://headphoneaddict.com/power-calculator/ According to this one 90-300 watts if I understand correctly http://rftech.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/24/~/determining-power-needed-for-speakers Focal’s recommended power rating is 25 - 175 wpc. The second one makes sense both by the way its laid out and that it would put my need in the center of the suggested wattage by the manufacturer. I don't think wattage is the issue though. Wattage is loudness. It gets plenty loud. I think its current as a large section of the impedance curve is closer to 4ohm than 8 ohm. The little power supply here isn't faring well with the impedance curve and the phase angle (-40degrees according to Stereophile). |
No.... You're not understanding this problem right at all. Stop thinking about this as a wattage problem. Wattage is an abstraction and those calculators you linked to are not at all telling you what you need to know. Focal speakers are designed to be driven by a voltage source. That's how their sensitivity is described. Efficiency per watt is a very useless measure except for very, very benign loads. For the purpose of this discussion ignore watts completely. We're talking voltage source amps for voltage driven speakers so let's talk voltage and sort out the current next. Once you understand your voltage demands based on the speaker's sensitivity, then we can plug in it's impedance and determine the current demand. Only after we know the voltage and current requirements can we calculate the wattage, which may or may not make any difference based on the class and topology of the amp. OK, I'm with it. So I need to know the amp's voltage delivery and the speaker's voltage requirement right? Here is something interesting, a spec sheet thats different than the one I got in the box. https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/chorus_807v_w-specification_s... Interestingly it has a RMS wattage rating which mine does not (not to harp on wattage - this is interesting though). I can't find either of these two metrics for either product. But I did learn the RMS for the speakers is 110 and thats more than 2x what I'm giving it. Also that the lowest impedance point is 4.2 ohms at 118hz (mid bass!). AM I on the right path? My thought has been all along that its the bottoming out of the impedance at 4.2 in the mid bass spectrum thats to blame for this. And from what I've read (right or not) is that the only way to combat the impedance is to drive through it with more current, not necessarily wattage. |
It may simply be that you don't like how your amp sounds on this speaker, but the idea that it does not drive the speaker correctly is simply not true. So the fact that the speaker impedance is at its lowest in the midbass (4.2ohms at 118hz) and that I am not getting the mid bass I feel I should be getting is not related? |
New system sourced. Over budget but since I elected to go separates I’ll try to be patient (ha) and pick things up one at a time. Firm game plan: Staying with same brand for amp/pre for synergy. Schiitt Sys is on its way to stand in for the preamp (figured this will be valuable should I decide to make a preamp upgrade down the line). Power amp ordered. Before end of year I will have a better system than I would ever conceived. Excited. Researching a decent interconnect to tie the prea and amp together under $150. I want to set it and forget it. After break in, I'll start upgrading cables to "finish off" the system. Then enjoy it without pouring paychecks on it. In a few weeks the Marantz is going to be listed. Good amp, didn’t work out for me I guess. Live and learn. I’ll be happy when everything is in its right place. I’d rather buy records than gear. |
Source isn’t changing this year. Speakers stay. Spent $1500 on power amp (A-A/B @110wpc) Once funds are available: $1600 on preamp (tube hybrid?) Schiit Sys will fill in until funds make the preamp happen. After amp burn in I’ll change speaker cables and source interconnects (most likely a flavor of either Belden or Cardas). Only interconnect looking at now is to connect amp and pre. Should be complete by end of the year. I feel confident this will be better than anything I had been pondering for the last 6 months. |