Dazzdax, the logic of your statement is (as your jokes)
an enigma to me.If I understand your statement correctly
then your claim is:'the many upgrades of Linn intendend the same sound'.
The logic presupposes,if you mean 'the same' in logical
sense, that we can't make eny sense from 'upgrades'.
I must refer once more to Raul: 'If the design is sound
then why so many upgrades?'
I made some effort to elaborate on this 'proposition'
but,obviously,without eny result.
Cheers |
I suspect the answer to the poster's question simply depends on ones point of view more than anything else. |
First of all, I am certainly not an audiophile and I just bought my first Linn LP12 this evening off of e-bay. I looked at (listened to) Oracle, Rega, VPI and Thorens TTs but I chose to buy a 69,XXX serial number Linn because I liked the sound of a friend's unit when hooked-up to my amp and speakers. No, he wouldn't let me touch it or take it home. I had to take my gear to my friend's place. Anyway, for my 2 cents, it was not how modern the technology was but how I felt emotionally from what I heard. BTW my amp is only a Sugden A48 Mk III and my speakers are Spica TC50s. Some if not most would say hardly audiophile grade. Once the unit arrives, I plan on upgrading the power supply, bearing, Cirkus upgrade, new springs, the keel upgrade, a polycarbonate sound base, and if luck prevails install an Ekos SE tonearm. At roughly that point, it will be a little better than my friend's unit (he has not installed the keel yet but is planning to do so and has the Ekos 2 Tonearm). Incidentally, my old TT was a Dual 1225 with a Shure M75ED Type 2 cartridge so all of the forementioned units I tried were an improvment to say the least. The Linn was just more pleasing to me. I only hope it sounds as good in my house as my friends did in his house! |
Aguadiem, See Jazzdoc's post way above. If you are really planning on spending all that money to upgrade your Linn, you might want to consider another table entirely, like a Galibier et al. Otherwise, your system is very nice; go for it. |
Drubin, The reason that your Linn sounds pretty good is that you have left is alone. Unlike the rest of us with Linn horror stories, the original unit is a pretty nice musical player. Upgrade it and it goes down hill from their. Trust me... I know. |
Aguadiem, don't do Circus, until you are prepared to have the sound character of the LP12 vitally changed. I second Normansizemore's opinion, that a cheap used LP12 bought from the usual s/h marketplaces is quite OK, but don't touch it, or you get a result you don't like, and the price/performance ratio changes to the worse. I think 1000 USD could buy you a good condition 80ies LP12 with tonearm.
I owned several LP12 over a twenty yr. period, and finally decided against them. If you are interested in a really negative view about the LP12, have a look at my write up here: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/linn_lp12_e.html
best regards, Hartmut |
"that a cheap used LP12 bought from the usual s/h marketplaces is quite OK"
I'd go even further and say a used Axis is quite OK also. Use a good matching cartridge though. Denon DL103R on teh Linn Basik tonearm with a good phono pre-amp (and step-up device if needed, see my system for example) sounds as good as anything I have heard recently to me.
I would rather spend my time listening to music than re-configuring turntables, so if I had to replace my Axis, I would do it with something similar that I can live with without regret without having to perform major surgery on it. |
I am at an age that I regulary must ask: What is the
question?
I assume that the most members are much younger but I
suggest that thy should also ask this question.
The question as stated presupposes some acquaitance or
expirienece with both: Linn-LP12 and other,'newer', hi-
tech turntables. If one dont fulfifils both 'conditions'
how is then an answer possible?
I am perplexed to read about: (sport) car comparitions,
love and hate declarations,the questions about my lenght,
the question if I own the 'lexicon of the English
language,etc.etc.
So what we are talking about?
' |
Personally, I could never get past the looks of the Linn. It just isn't sexy looking to me. To hear that they are in the $10k range now is amazing to me. I could never bring myself to spend that on a Linn. I'm all about sound but looks count too in that price range.
My audiophile buddies and I had Sotas and VPI. In the mid-90's we definately liked the sound of our Sotas better than the Linn. But others loyally defended their Linns'. They always talk about how their Linn has so much better rythm and pace than the Sota. I have never heard that difference and to this day do not understand that comment. If the table wow and flutter is below measurable limits- how does it sound different?
I still prefer the suspended table (Sota) sound over the fixed mass (VPI) myself. My VPI buddy like his TT but would admit the Sota sounded good to him too.
It comes down to what each of us likes and how willing we are to part with our hard earned cash for something intangible to normal, everyday people. |
The difference between suspended and non-suspended seems to me like it would be a huge point of difference, but I don't hear people talking about it that much. Do most of you clearly favor one approach over the other? |
Well, I just spent the last 8 hours spending time in a jazz club in San Fransico, then over to Symphony Hall in Chicago, to another jazz club in New York, another symphony in Boston, then over to London, then Venice, and back over to Copenhagen for some more jazz. Literally around the world in just over 8 hours time thanks to my Linn LP12, Naim ARO, Wood bodied Benz, and Pink Link DC Battery Power Supply.
Is it competitive or better than the modern super tables of today? I don't know. What I do know is that during this last 8 strait hours of listening, I didn't once think about what a new table would sound like. I was immersed in the music, the tone and timbre of the instruments, and felt like I was in the concert halls of the symphonies being played and that many times the likes of Ben Webster, Clark Terry, or Dizzy or Ray Brown and countless other jazz greats were in my listening room performing just for me!
So, those are the good points about the Linn. The cons are that either you need to learn how to set up the Linn correctly (which isn't hard, it just takes patience and gets easier with practice) or you need to know someone that can do it for you. I don't mind doing it. It's part of the hobby, the nostalgia of playing vinyl, if you will. Also, it is a misnomer that you constantly have to keep fiddling with the deck. That is simply untrue, unless you keep moving it from house to house.
I think that there are probably a great number of decks out there that can make music. You simply have to go out and listen to as many as you can and then one will "strike a chord" with you and then you'll know. |
|
Yeah! 60ies Jazz is the genre, that the LP12 works best with, indeed.
best regards, Hartmut |
Norman, the more your dealer touched your 'table, the worse it sounded. Thousands of people with a different dealer have loved the upgrades. Further proof he doesn't know much about it. I really don't care what anyone thinks of the LP12, but misinformation is not helpful. BTW, I do not use an LP12 as my main deck. |
NO_regrets said:
"I didn't once think about what a new table would sound like."
I feel the same way even with my lowly Axis.
The Axis is not any harder than most table to set up correctly. You just need to use the standard paper cartridge mounting templates that Linn provides. These can be downloaded over internet and printed on any decent black and white home printer. Couldn't be easier or cheaper....
What is it about the LP12 that people seem to think makes it such a beast to set up properly? I don't see it with the Axis. Maybe the answers for those fed up with LP12s is to step down to an Axis, if you can find one.
I did spend a lot of time mounting various cartridges on various tables I sold working in various Hi Fi chains many years ago, which might give me an advantage over many that at most may do it once in a blue moon at most these days. Practice does make perfect with getting these things right. |
It's not mounting cartridges that's tough with the LP-12, it's getting the suspension properly balanced. That's what makes people nuts. |
"It's not mounting cartridges that's tough with the LP-12, it's getting the suspension properly balanced. That's what makes people nuts."
That's never been an issue for me with my Axis. I've had it for over 20 years.
Normal stylus wear is the only issue I've had to deal with in all that time.
An Axis can be had for much less than an lp12. It's said to have the larger Linn's best attributes in a simpler and more user friendly package. |
Why is this "to get the suspension right thing" so difficult with the Linn? Are there tools to have this set up properly or is it a matter of "intuition"? It's like magic sometimes...
Chris |
As a "past" user, it can be as good as anyone. even better..
just that it takes a lot of trial and errors, and maintenance is high in terms of time...
but great thing is you have a big community to support you and endless routes to upgrade/?downgrade, if you're handy and willing to do open box work, it's a good choice.
For TD124, you can add a little more from the above points. |
Mapman, i have an Axis that i have owned for nearly 20 years too and it has always been good and very fuss free. 3 years ago i bought a late 80's LP12/Ittok from EBay for what would have been about 1000 dollars. I live in the UK. I set up the lp12 myself from manuals on the internet and the the deck has been sounding wonderful ever since. In fact it is sounding better than anything i have ever heard and has needed no further tweaking. Compared to the Axis which is still set up on the same system, the LP12 is punchier, much more focussed with better treble extension and has a much blacker background between notes. It also appears to almost literally throw instruments around the room with its dynamics and soundstage presentation. I know there must be better decks around, especially nowadays with all the development that has gone on but for what i paid it is an awesome turntable and thoroughly stomps over any of the CD players that i have tried on my system, including a Lin Karik/Numerik mk111. |
I have a large room- 24 feet across so lots of room on each side of my speakers. When listening to CD's the sound stage rarely goes beyond the speakers, I think I have just one or two CD's that extend a little bit beyond. But when I play records on my Sota, the soundstage nearly doubles in size. The sound stage, on a few exceptional records even goes almost wall to wall. |
Redhunter,
I'm curious what cartridges have you used in comparison between Axis and LP12 and with which tonearms and corresponding phono pre?
IS it an apples/apples comparison of equally well matched cartridge to tonearm in each case and playing through same system otherwise?
I always wonder when tables sound different how much is the table itself as opposed to the overall synergy among table, cart, and tonearm, which is always very key IMO. |
Hi Mapman, i have used a K9 and a Goldring 1042 in both decks and the results are pretty much the same. The LP12 sounds better. The arms are Ittok LV11 on the LP12 and Akito on the Axis. The 1042 sounds great on both decks by the way. Recently i tried a Denon 103R on the LP12 and it was pretty good but in some ways not as good as the 1042. This was replaced after 4 months by an Audio Technica AT33PTG after i broke the cantilever on the 103R. The AT33PTG is definitely the best cartidge i have owned and really sings on the LP12. I will not try to fit it to the Axis because the headshell on the Akito is quite small and it would be a very tight fit, as was the Denon 103R. The Goldring is now back on the Axis and still sounding good with a newly run in stylus but the LP12/Audio Technica is a lot better. I was very happy with my Axis and bought an LP12 to satisfy my curiosity with all the hype, having wanted one for 25 years!. I drove 200 miles to pick it up, to avoid damage in transit, and i was dissapointed at first listening. I set it up over a few weeks and changed the oil and have never looked back. I keep the Axis to play 45's and to play less than perfect records on but always actually listen to the LP12.
My phono stages are all home made. I have 5 or 6 of them, all battery powered. One is moving coil only but i also have built a moving coil step up stage that can be used with any of the other moving magnet versions. I have to say that they all sound very good. In this case the phono stage is not the issue as i have swapped them between decks many times during their development. |
Eee3 Your arrogance stands a head above all other linn owner's. I have just finished reading the posting from uktel, about Linn's unfair marketing advantage in the UK, by not allowing their table to be compared with other's.That should say it all, yet this will never convince the linn devotee out there that his linn has become an anvil being held up by blind sentiment. A product that still uses an outmoded science with backward technology. A company that refuses to investigate to use of better materials that continues to use the same old suspension system developed 35years ago.That even to this day is susceptible to "FOOT FALLS", and all are given the same tired story of "just follow the tune". |
Redhunter,
I have an old Goldring cart of some kind on my old Dual 1264 on my second 2 channel a/v system and it too sounds really good in particular with the phono stage on the vintage Yamaha cr-420 receiver I have been using of late. Prior to the Yammy, when used with built in Tandberg and NAD phono stages, I always thought of it as just OK. Synergy was everything in this particular case. IT absolutely sings like never before now and though it sounds different, I find it equally enjoyable in its own way as the Axis/Denon combo in my main rig. |
Schipo, The last time I checked, we live in a free enterprise society(at least in the free world)
What that means is you have the option to buy a product or not to buy! Linn is not putting a gun to anyone's head making them buy their turntable.
Based on the responses you've read on this forum thread, you should have by now gathered that people who buy linn tables and keep them do so because they like the way they sound, which is the bottom line in any audio purchase. Folks are not interested in whether or not its the latest technology.
If that were the case, tube amp sales would not be flourishing and have been doing so for the last 10-15 yrs.
Again, its old antiquated technology but folks that like the tube amp sound buy them for that reason period!!
Folks that buy a linn table from a reputable dealer I'm sure have the opportunity to demo it and if they don't like it they can bring it back. I don't consider that an unfair marketing advantage.
Finally, if you don't like linn tables(which is obvious) that's fine but what's not fine is you trying to make everyone else not like them just because you don't.
Life is about options and everyone has the option to buy whatever they want. And please don't talk about arrogance because anyone who has read your responses surely can see who is exuding arrogance. |
Schipo wrote, 2-16-09
"...Linn's unfair marketing advantage in the UK, by not allowing their table to be compared with other's..."
Just wondering how they are able to do this? How can they keep ANYONE from making comparisons?
I must not understand this statement correctly...
|
By not allowing dealers to carry better tables to be compared to side by side is that so hard to understand? Linns been using the same marketing ploy using the follow the tune bs. Do you really believe if you had the choice of side by side comparison between a Goldmund or a Linn, you would have chosen the Linn. I dumped my linn in 86 after hearing the Goldmund studio at Lyric HiFi. |
Lrsky
Actually it was me that made the statement regarding linns policy.
My nearest audio dealer here in the UK is Billy Vee sound systems,Take a look at thier website and you will understand a little more about my comments.
Then take a look at Walrus systems who are a genuine analogue shop for turntable lovers,You will see no Linns here because Linn will not want to be there and they wouldn't want Linns anyway?
The vast majority of audio retailers in the uk are just like Billy Vee.
I do not hate the LP12,I used various incantations of it over a five year period and am fully aware of its strengths and its weaknesses.
But I do hate the marketing machine that has led many people down an expensive path that ultimately wasnt the path that was for them. |
Uktel: I thank you for opening my eyes even more. I just left the Billy Vee site and was shocked that I did not even see a Rega TT nor a mention of the new WTA table. I hope all who have chastised me, will understand that I do not hate the Linn table. I just know like so many that there are now and then better tables compared to Linn. Heck I know that back in the mid 80s when I compared it to the Goldmund studio and even WTT. |
Now that everyone's heated up,let's look at some more of the "Linn picture".
Back in 1983, I opened an audio store. I wanted to carry the 'best'.
I selected, from products of the era, what I thought to be among that 'best'.
One product that I wanted to carry and did, was Linn Sondek. They did have very stringent requirements to become a dealer. At the time, caught up in the moment, I agreed to their requirements, thinking, 'hey, it's their product, they have the right to have input as to how and where, and with what other products, they are marketed.'
Very soon, after spending a full two days with the 'installation' of their product into my store, I began to rethink my choice. It all began with the revelation having another pair of speakers in the listening room would affect the sound. OK that's reasonable, 'excite the woofer, and send energy back through the crossover' and into the room, I get it. So, I'll lug speakers back and forth all day long to have that single speaker demo room. Work, but I am no stranger to hard work. Then the other shoe dropped. "Wearing a digital watch in the listening room will also ruin the sound."
Hmmmmm. Hmmmmmm....(Me pondering that one)
My wife had to hide her laughter from them. Knowing what a fanatic I am, she was gracious and didn't say anything.
OK, well, maybe the 'digital watch thing' could have some merit...maybe, but how much could it really effect the totallity of sound?
(The sound you heard was more shoes dropping, not the digital watch 'ruining the sound'.)
Then the theology that, "If someone runs in from the outside in desparate need of using the restroom, or wants to buy a postage stamp, or needs a drink of water--sell them a turntable.
My principal speaker supplier, which I won't name, was friends with Linn's people, but even they expressed serious doubts about the Linn choice, knowing that thier business model was one of exclusion of all other products.
They feared the I, because I decided to also carry one other English product, would be seduced to 'the dark side' of Anglophilism.
Let's think about this--if they won't allow dealers to carry other turntables along with theirs, that's their choice. They can set their distribution pattern in whatever light they wish to. The dealers have the right to decline, I know I had that right.
Let's fast forward some 17 years, and see how Linn came back to haunt me.
While working as VP of Sales and Marketing for THIEL Audio, I was teaching my "Eleven Hard Earned Lessons" to our dealers sales people.
In one store, while 'role playing' I told the sales person I wanted to hear the CS6. Two hours later he, without any regard to my protests, was STILL trying to sell me a Linn Sondek.
What chance did THIEL have in that store, if all the sales people, apparently from some contrarian training, behaved the same way? Seriously, it was actually spooky, it was as if they were involved in some 'cult', for want of a better word.
This whole scenario is Linn's option, again they can market however they chose. Its up to customers to make comparisons and then decide.
Also, Linn is not alone in this 'exclusivity' bent. Many small audio companies are protective of 'instore' competiton. Most dealers would rather present 'choice sale' rather than a 'yes or no' do you like it sales event, but that's not always their option. |
Wow, interesting stories about "big brother Linn".
How is it that I see high end shops these days carrying the Linn line as almost entry level high end products aside many other competing even more highly touted lines?
Also I recall the dealer I bought my Axis from back in the 80s also carried Rega, in fact I bought the Rega Planar 2 first and then went to the Linn because I didn't think the Rega was any better than the Dual I had before that or the Philips 312 I had before that.
That dealer must have been one valiant sole to dare resist the Linn police and sell another line. |
Mapman: are you still using a Linn as your prime analog source,and if yes why? |
Schipo,
Yes.
Why:
- It's the best table I have ever owned
- It's been extremely reliable (20+ years and still going with no down time)
- in its current location on carpeted solid concrete foundation and massively heavy wood table, I have absolutely no issues ever with noise or feedback.
- Despite having a large record collection and growing and liking the sound, I only listen to vinyl maybe 20-30% of the time. My digital has always been competitive sound wise and when I have time to listen, I do not want to spend time manipulating vinyl. Since adding a music server, this is more the case than ever.
- when I do play records these days, it sounds even better than ever with other recent upgrades including DL103R cartridge and ARC tube pre-amp with phono section.
Basically, as long as it keeps working, the Linn is a non-issue for me. It sounds fantastic and nothing else I hear really sounds any better to my ears.
Basically, if it ain't broke, I ain't looking to fix it.
If the Linn does go up someday, I would most likely consider a different table mainly for just a change of scenery after all these years and mainly to perhaps provide a higher mass tonearm option for the low compliance DL103R cartridge, because I think that might work even better. |
Yeah, but you should have seen the analog shi* hit the fan when I picked up SOTA a couple of years later.
They could abide my carrying Rega and a couple of 'lower fish' along with the Linn, but wow, it wasn't pretty.
Of course I'll never forget what a jerk the guy at SOTA was when I first called. I'll quote him, or at least paraphrase.
"Send me the price of two tables, I'll massage it for a while, (I swear to God he actually said this) and then call you when we're ready to ship."
Now, at the time, I guess, at least in the US market Linn was IT. Sota was maybe the first to take a serious pot shot at them. Oracle, I don't think was established yet, or at least I hadn't heard of them, and names like Thorens didn't compete. The 'Walker', not sure, came along about '85, and I sold a few. But SOTA hit the ground hard and posed at least a minor threat.
But don't get me wrong, in my neck of the woods, virtually every manufacturer was overly protective of its dealer base and took it personally if you took on a competitor of thiers.
Ready for this??
I hosted a coctail reception at my store in 1985/6 and had just taken on the SHURE surround sound processor, the first one I'm aware of...and I had it playing in one of my demo rooms. A speaker manufacturer came into the room and quietly said, "Turn that off", I didn't come here to compete with a Television."
They were slow to take on the marriage of audio/video, but have, and now market many successful ceiling, front, center etc speakers.
Wow, 24 years is a LOOOOONG time, and it changes practically everything. |
Mapman..well I am glad that to your ears it's sounds the best. But when placed side by side next to the Goldmund there was no contest. I will admit I wished Goldmund would have used the JVC motor from inception but it still is to my ears a better design all around. Now that was over 20yrs ago and I beleive their are now many better tables then the Linn. |
Schip,
I wouldn't assert that it (my Linn Axis) is the "best". I'm sure it can be improved upon if desired.
I only state that I am satisfied with the sound, performance and value it has awarded me over the years, so I am not compelled to change.
I also have a $100 Skagen watch that keeps perfect time, and looks sharp that I am not likely to give up until it finally dies. I know there are "better" watches out there, but I have no need. |
Mapman to say that you have no need to explore another table is fine, if your satisfied with the sound of the one now being used. I say now has I did over 20years ago the Linn is then and now superseded by better designs. |
"the Linn is then and now superseded by better designs"
Wouldn't surprise me after 20+ years.
Its still a classic and a long time reference standard though! |
I doubt if many people still believe that the LP12 is the "best" even if it ever was. But i always wanted one because every review that i read seemed to describe the type of sound that i was looking for and whilst expensive it was not totally out of the realms of affordability. I prefer a presentation that sounds like music to me even if it is not absolutely accurate. I am not a musician and i never listen to classical or jazz but on rock/pop/blues and folk the LP12 gives a convincing impression of a live event, unlike any CD player that i have heard. Like Mapman i bought an Axis (all i could afford) which has served me well for nearly 20 years. It too has a lifelike sound to me, but to a lesser degree. I have had an LP12 now for over 3 years and love it. It is by no means the latest spec. but sounds so good that i dont feel the need to upgrade it. I think Linns upgrades are ridiculously overpriced. I do tend to buy things and keep them for a long time anyway. If money was no object then i would probably have something other than a top Linn but i would would certainly audition one just to see where it stands against others. |
I think Linn is predictably trying to play it both ways with their expensive upgrades.
1) Their tables are a well established reference standard, for better or for worse, for many, so they keep it unchanged and market that. Who can blame a company for keeping their flagship product around?
2) There's lots of money to be made selling upgrades to the long time reference standard as well, so they gladly do that as well.
Nothing strange here that I see. |
Schipo, give it rest already.
Lrsky, your stories are wonderful -- keep them coming! I wish there was a way to create a thread for you, which didn't allow comments, which you could add to whenever you like. |
Drubin: As long as there is a forum here on the Gon for me and others to speak, we shall speak as we wish. Also as I see it Lrsky is saying the same as I about Linn. |
I don't have an issue with the discussion of Linn's marketing practices, What I was referring to was your seeming insistence that we all concede that you are right, that Linn is not the best. |
Drubin:What makes you think that I was trying to convince you? I read your postings, and you were saying the same as I. |
Thanks Drubin,
Sometimes, actually, most of the time, I wonder if I sound like some old geezer on a park bench, or worse yet Forrest Gump telling these stories.
They're from my perspective to be sure, and I try to be complely faithful to the truth. What's wierd is that some of them sound so outlandish--but when I think about it, it's because they are outlandish that I realize, at least I hope people realize that that's why they're true. I have a vivid imagination, but I couldn't make these kinds of thing up. It's funny the amount of information one acquires in 25 years in an industry, from all perspectives,
Hobbiest, Store Owner, VP for a Manufacturer, Designer, and manufacturing company owner.
Stay tuned Drub, I'm sure a dead brain cell will spit another out when prompted by a thread. |
I have a mid 80's Sondek 12 with a Basic tone arm and a Nagaoka cart and love the set up. Works very well with my Cary tube amp and Cary tube preamp. Good bang for the buck. |
Ok but what about the original question , Thorens 124 or Linn 12??? |
Ok but what about the original question , Thorens 124 or Linn 12??? The LP-12 and the TD-124 are both supremely well-executed examples of completely different approaches to building a turntable . . . the comparison is like Porsche vs. Ferrari . . . a practically unanswerable question. Edgar Villchur's original AR turntable was designed to address many of the specific problems of mid-20th-century idler-drive turntables (rumble, motor noise, and acoustic feedback), and it did so very successfully. The LP-12 is based on the AR design . . . and one thing it's hard to fault Ivor Tiefenbrun for is his persistent, dogged determination to improve it, little by little, year after year. And just like the Porsche 911, the people that never liked it . . . still don't like it. Tiefenbrun himself is also a polarizing personality, and many people don't like him . . . and dislike the LP-12 out of proxy. The TD-124, on the other hand, exudes all of the attributes that we value in a piece of fine machinery, and because of this it's satisfying to own, work on, and operate in a way that the LP-12 simply cannot match. Those negative attributes that define the performance of most idler-drive turntables are very effectively dealt with in the TD124, mostly by sheer manufacturing prowess. And the traditional Achilles' heel of a traditional suspended turntable - variation in pitch with suspension movement - is completely absent. In the end, if one's looking for the turntable of their dreams . . . both of these machines are "required listening". |
I'm the hundredth poster, Do I get a prize? Let me sum this up, the Linn still makes music and can make you happy. I finally bought one this fall because I found one that had been for sale for years in great condition with a Grace 707 and F9E for $400. Does it sound as good as the Scoutmaster I have set up? Probably not, but how could you tell, different arms and cartridges. I sure hope that the new Aries I have coming with 12.7 arm and most of the goodies sounds considerably better but I don't think that the Linn will be totally embarrassed by it. The Linn is still a good table that can work in a top system, Martin Colloms still uses one and so do many others. |
