Line Magnetic 219ia vs Mc225
jkull, In the event you are unfamiliar with Brent Jesse's tube website here's a link to his 12ax7 page where he gives his insights into different brands, and it also lists what he has available should that be of interest to you (PS you can explore other tube types as well) . Only relationship is as a satisfied customer. http://www.audiotubes.com/12ax7.htm. Charles, Is there some way on the tubesusa website to see what tubes he carries , or do you just call? Txs |
I've been in the middle of a move, so I've not been on A-gon much in the past few weeks, but great to see the info on the 219 and 508!! And good see Waltersalas on hear as well!! (hey Chris!) For anyone interested in LM gear, they really do owe it to themselves to take a listen to the "new" 508ia. As posted above several times, it's just a flat out fantastic integrated amp. I consider the 518 extremely good as well, but the 508 and it's added power will really fit the bill for wider audience (and speakers). Taylor Goldprint Audio -- ***** LM dealer ***** |
Jkull, Your approach is wise in my opinion . You listen primarily to records so a high quality Phono stage is mandatory to obtain superior sound. I agree with beginning with the preamplifier and input signal tubes and then progression down the signal pathway. I lack the detailed knowledge concerning the specific tubes you mention to make meaningful suggestions. tubesusa . com is a Western Electric dealer (George is the owner and is very helpful) 516 902 3334. It's a very good starting point for information. Charles |
Charles, Al- I think the wise move at this point would be to focus my funds towards the Decware ZP3 first and foremost. This buy will restrain tube funds, so what I will do is replace the 12AX7’s for the time being, followed by the 310A’s shortly after as what Ive collected thus far relays them to be second most effective tube roll beings they are preamp stage along with the 12AX7’s. Hey Al and Charles.. NOS mullards, teles, or RCA’s you think? I want the stage to open, and the more ’smooth’ the better... RCA’s can be found for the cheapest from what Im seeing. Also. Can either of you clarify the difference in the silver plate NOS Western Electric 310A’s and the all gold ones??? Thanks for all of the help guys |
Charles, Al, thank you guys. Al, thank you for the link to this product.. While listening to a few digital file sharing yesterday without the sub on, I have to say, the cornwalls provided me with more than satisfactory bass on their own. Integrating the sub just allows the bass 'punch' and feel to fill the room out more. Without it, I get just as much punch from the 15"s in the cornwalls alone, but you have to be around the sweet spot, which is really all that matters, but $207 isn't bad.. |
Jkull, like the majority of phono stages the ZP3 appears to not provide a volume control. Therefore to be able to control the volume you would connect it to one of the 219ia’s inputs that does NOT bypass its preamp section (i.e., to one of the inputs other than "pre-in"). And therefore a 12AX7 upgrade is likely to be worthwhile. A follow-up regarding your earlier question about hooking up your sub. If you are willing to invest $207 (plus cabling) for that purpose, here you go: http://www.cs1.net/products/jensen_transformers/SP-2SX.htm And here is a link to the manufacturer’s datasheet: http://www.jensen-transformers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/SP-2SX.pdf Many other devices claiming to perform the same function are available for much lower prices, but in contrast to most or all of them the products of the Jensen Transformers company are frequently used and are well respected by high end audiophiles. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
Yes, I believe that you’re using the preamp (line stage function) section in the pathway to provide gain for your phono signal .If Al happens to be still following this thread I hope he’ll correct me if I’m mistaken.I think the 219ia allows bypassing the preamp section via a "direct" connection thus using the 219ia as a power amplifier only option. Charles |
Charles- I am using the 219 preamp section when running my oppo for digital listening right now. Question... its a pretty silly one but.. I am looking to upgrade my phono as discussed previously. I am still using my marantz 7701's built in phono, but want to order a Decware ZP3 (SET) phono. When running this phono into the 219, or any phono for that matter, I am still utilizing the 219's pre amp correct? Like, your phono does not act as the only pre (sound defining) in the chain right? Thus changing 12AX7's in the 219 is still a worthwhile move for my (predominantly) vinyl listening. The question is probably so dumb that it is confusing you. Sorry lol |
Hello Chris, A pair of the EML XLS 300b cost 775.00 USD from tubesusa.com in New York. Their service and support is 2nd to none. The Psvane W.E Replica are 935.00 USD. Psvane does have lower cost models/series of the 300b that are good quality. The Japanese Takatsuki 300b run about 1800 to 2000.00 USD per pair. I purchased my Takatsuki pair 4 years ago,. EML offers a standard 300b for around 500.00 USD and is said to be very good (I've only used/heard their XLS versions). The Shuguang Black Treasure 300b is a good tube and is less money than the pricier mentioned choices above . I used this tube for 3 years prior to getting the Takatsuki. There's good selection of better quality 300b tubes across the price spectrum just depends on predetermined budget. Charles |
Jkull, it looks like you are on the right track. I have no personal experience with the Psvane tubes, but I have heard good things and I certainly trust Charles' experience and recommendations. I also agree with his perspective that it makes sense to get the best tubes you (we) can for an amp of this caliber. Just switching the 6SN7 and 6SL7 tubes made a remarkable difference for me, and definitely took the amp to another level. Charles, at some point, I will probably try a pair of those EML XLS 300Bs. I have a friend who really likes and recommends them. It appears that they are somewhere in the neighborhood of $1500 for a matched pair. Does that sound about right, or are there better deals to be had? I'll probably settle for the Psvane 300Bs for the short term, but eventually I will want to try the EMLs. OK. Must. Go. To. Bed.... Chris |
Jkull, The premium level DHT tubes are expensive, especially 300bs (Takatsuki or heaven forbid the Western Electric vintage types). The Psvane W.E Replica are pricey but not exorbitant and in my opinion represent excellent value given their high quality of sounnd (and reliability, important when discussing tubes). When you own an upper tier amplifier that's capable of superb sound quality they demand equal quality tubes to extract the full potential available. The good news is that the premium DHT tubes generally provide commendable longevity. For example I use the EML XLS 300b which is reported to have a lifespan approaching 40,000 hours based on early versions still in operation. That makes the initial cost worth it in absolute terms as far as I am concerned. Jkull I believe that with your amplifier both the 300b driver and 845 are very influential in determining the final sound quality. I feel that you can buy them in either order (diver first or the output 845 first). Buying these top level tubes depends on one's budget obviously. I look at it from this perspective, the 219ia cost 7500.00 as opposed to 15K-20K USD. So even with obtaining the premium tubes the total outlay is very reasonable compared to other amplifier/tube packages to achieve similar sound quality. Charles |
Chris, You occupy an enviable position at this point. You find the 508ia performance "spectacular " with the use of better 6SN7 input tubes. Experience and logic dictate that upgrading the 300b driver and the 805 output tubes will push the sonic envelope further. You’ll find yourself in situations where shutting down the system and leaving your listening room will be unusually difficult to do. This is how powerful the emotional involvement of listening to music becomes when you get things right as you’re surely discovering. Fortunately your amplifier is SET and you’ll only require one pair of 300b and 805 rather than multiple pairs. Charles |
Thanks again, folks, for your excellent suggestions. I liked the 508ia right out of the box, but after 40-50 hours, I just wasn't getting the refinement I wanted, which I (correctly, I think) attributed to the stock Electro Harmonix 6SN7 and Sovtek 6SL7 tubes. I replaced with those with a pair of Sylvania JAN VT-231s (good call, Wig!) and an RCA VT-229 and was astounded by the immediate level of improvement I experienced. I don't want to fall prey to recency bias, but I do believe that the 508ia is the best amp I've ever heard in my system, better even than the VAC Ren 70/70, which I dearly loved for several years. I am not sure that the 508 has quite the same degree of mid-range magic that was the VAC's strong suit--though with the NOS tubes, it is at least a horse race--but the bass is better (deeper, more clearly defined, etc.) and the musicality is a draw. Of course, the usual caveats apply--IMHO, in my system, YMMV, and so forth. The really exciting part is that I might have a hundred hours on the amp max, so it is probably still breaking in, and I have not yet rolled any 805 or 300B tubes to see what further improvements that might yield. I will say that I could happily live with this amp just as it is for the rest of my days, and that to anyone thinking of an audition, find, beg, or borrow some NOS tubes so that you will know what this amp can really do. It is just spectacular! I will certainly look into the fuse upgrade, and those Psvane sound like a no-brainer at $125 for a matched pair. I had an octet of KR 300Bs in my VAC Ren, and I hate to confess what I paid for those. Finally, this amp is just beautiful to look at, especially at night! |
Psvane is really a good quality current production tube and generally seem to be a step above comparable Shuguangs (although some of their offerings are quite good). If Psvane ever makes a W.E.Replica version of the 805, go for it! This is sonically their top tier series of tubes. Waltersalas, not everyone is not convinced on the idea/use of upgrade level fuses and I don’t know where you stand on the issue. I’m in agreement with Wig in regard to their positive contributions. In my and a close friend’s experiences with our systems they have consistently benefitted DACS, preamplifiers and power amplifiers. Obviously this matter is a personal call. I’ve just had rewarding experiences with changing tubes, capacitors and fuses over the years. Anyway that is my 2 cents worth, I can appreciate the joy the SET 508ia has brought to your audio system. Charles |
Watersalas- Congrats on your new LM 508IA! It's a fantastic amp and what I'm using as well completely rolled with Psvane 805, Sophia Mesh Plates 300B, Tung Sol Round Plates 6SU7 and many 6SN7. In regards to the 6SN7, it's going to be a trial and error on which you like best in the circuit. Sylvania VT 231s and Ken Rad has always been my favorite go to tube, surpassing my Sylvania W, Raytheon smoked glass but I like the Sylvania WGTA in this circuit, it has both clarity and body the other 6SN7 have clarity but didn't sound as good. The Psvane are a nice improvement and at $125 for a matched pair from Aliexpress, you'll gain improvements across the board. Happy Tube rolling... Also, change the stock fuse to Synergistic Research Black Fuse; Big improvement in SQ and experiment with fuse direction. |
Earlier I connected the oppo via XLR L channel analog output, into the SVS and something was NOT right. I got signal through to the sub but it was clearly audibly wrong with what I was hearing. I felt like I was hearing highs and miss [mids?] come out the sub as well...the sub has L and R inputs.The only thing I can think of that might account for that would be if the sub’s menus are set such that it is expecting its input signals to have been subjected to bass management, which I presume the Oppo does not provide. If so, you should be able to resolve that by changing various settings in the sub's menus. i cannot see it necessary to manually adjust my sub when adjusting my 219 volume. That sounds primitive and odd to me???? I would rather not use one if It cannot correlate in volume as I adjust the 219... ughAgreed. That would be very undesirable. Adjust the oppo volume is a no go as well.Then I guess the only remaining possibilities are not using a sub, or buying a different sub that provides speaker-level inputs, or trying to find a suitable speaker-level to line-level converter. Regards, -- Al |
Al. I have an SVS PB13 ultra. No speaker level outs, just rca and XLR. I have the oppo RCA analog outs connected to my 219. Earlier I connected the oppo via XLR L channel analog output, into the SVS and something was NOT right. I got signal through to the sub but it was clearly audibly wrong with what I was hearing. I felt like I was hearing highs and miss come out the sub as well...the sub has L and R inputs. should i try the 'SW' labeled RCA out of the oppo into the sub instead?? i cannot see it necessary to manually adjust my sub when adjusting my 219 volume. That sounds primitive and odd to me???? I would rather not use one if It cannot correlate in volume as I adjust the 219... ugh Adjust the oppo volume is a no go as well. The volume control on them is useless. It is not like a normal volume control and should be at 100 at all times. Decreasing it sucks the life out of the sound terribly. Oppo likes to pretend the 105 can be used as a pre amp. Not even close. |
If the sub provides speaker-level inputs (some do, some don’t) you would connect it to the speaker terminals of the 219ia, together with the connections to the main speakers. If the sub provides only line-level inputs, since the 219ia doesn’t provide pre-outs (line-level outputs of its preamplifier section) the likeliest alternative would be to connect the sub to the Oppo. Either RCA outputs of the Oppo, using a splitter if necessary (so that those outputs could be connected to both the sub and the 219ia), or XLR outputs if they are provided. You would then have to adjust the sub’s level control each time you change the 219ia’s volume control, to keep them in sync. Or, alternatively, if the Oppo provides a volume control you could use that control to change volume, and perform a one-time determination of a specific volume control setting on the 219ia and the sub that would always be used with that approach. This assumes that the sub provides inputs for both left and right channels (if, as it appears, you are using just one sub rather than two). If you are using one sub and it only provides an input for one channel you would have to use a mixer of some sort to sum the left and right outputs of the Oppo together, with the output of the mixer being provided to the sub. Another possibility is that you might be able to find a suitable speaker-level to line-level converter. I’ve seen such things offered over the years, at low cost, although I have no knowledge of their technical parameters or their sonic quality. Regards, -- Al |
I've got a rather simple question. I have been listening to vinyl since getting the 219 but have just been trying some digital through it as of last night with my oppo. My question is, I am running the oppo direct into the 219 and using its pre amp. Prior to the 219 I was running my marantz 7701 with XLR running out of it into my sub. Now that the 7701 is out of the mix, how am I hooking the 219 up to the sub? I have no idea lol.. someone fill me in here with this simple answer please thank you |
Listened to my Original Epic pressing of Pearl Jam’s Vitalogy the other evening. The 219ia smothered any mention of what my previous 500watt SS monoblocks could make of this album. It’s a great album to use as a basis as the songs are dynamic and have a lot of ups and downs in power and presentation. its funny to see how the discussion of the 'first watt is the most important' is a such a true statement. |
The comments from reviewers and especially owners of the Line Magnetic SET amplifiers is noteworthy. Consistently there is praise for the very high standard of built quality, fit and finish. LM is serious about the quality of their output transformers and power supplies. If country of origin were Japan they'd easily be 3x the cost. Line Magnetic is unquestionably legitimate High End in design, execution and performance. Charles |
Watersalas- Similar situation. I didn't even hear a 219ia until I plugged my own in. I heard the 216 which was loaded with gold lion kt88's through lascalas, and then heard a 518ia through cornwalls. I decided it would be the 219 or the 508 from there and was pretty sure either would be great and wouldn't really matter, 805's vs 845's both being praised tubes when paired with transformers that drive them properly. I'd love to hear the 508. |
You’re welcome, Chris. I would not expect there to be any compatibility issues when using a 6SN7GTB in any 6SN7 application. And it would be very unusual for a 6SN7GTA to not be substitutable for a 6SN7GTB (or one of its modern counterparts which might not have any suffix), although based on the information I see in my Sam’s Tube Substitution Handbook it is conceivable that there could be a few oddball designs in which that might be a problem. The possibility of an issue would mainly arise, though, if a 6SN7GT (or its VT-231 military equivalent) were substituted for either a GTA or a GTB (or their modern counterparts which might not have any suffix), due to the lower voltage and power ratings of the GT. Especially in a power amp or integrated amp application, where the tube may be driven at higher voltage and power levels than in a preamp or other line-level application. Also, FYI my GEs are from 1958; I have no knowledge of GEs from other eras. Enjoy! Best regards, -- Al |
Hi Al, You make an excellent point. I am investigating the amp's design to see whether are any compatibility issues with any of the 6SN7 types. Thanks for the reminder. Thanks also for your tips on specific tubes. I'll scout around for a pair of GE tubes, once I determine if I can use them in the 508. Who doesn't love great tubes at a low price? Charles, This is my first experience with the 805 tube as well. I will look into the Psvane. Don't they also make a highly regarded 6SN7 tube? jond, Thanks for the recommendation. If the 508ia can work with this type, I will give it a whirl. They look nice and the cost is not prohibitive. jkull, I have no doubt that the 219 is spectacular. I would have loved to hear it head to head with 508, but circumstances did not allow. Also, the 219 is a bit beyond my budget, although I think the LM amps represent great value at all price points. Like you, I listen to all kinds of music, so I need an amp that can accommodate a wide range of music. With the right tubes, I think the 508 is going to be just the ticket. It is still clearly breaking in, but the soundstage is beginning to open up and the bass is gaining depth and focus. I have no doubt it will continue to get better and better over the next few weeks. I appreciate everyone's posts. |
Hi Chris (Waltersalas), Regarding 6SN7 upgrades, a point to be aware of is that depending on the specific design of the amplifier in which they are used vintage 6SN7GT tubes (as opposed to GTA’s or GTB’s) may or may not be suitable. If you were to consider a vintage 6SN7GT I would suggest asking the distributor if it would be suitable for use in the 508ia before making a purchase. Specifically, the vintage 6SN7GT is rated for a maximum plate voltage of 300, while the GTA and GTB are rated to be able to handle 450 volts. Also, the maximum plate power rating of the GT is 5 watts per tube and 3.5 watts per section, while the GTA and GTB ratings are 7.5 watts per tube and 5 watts per section. Some and perhaps most recent production tubes that do not have any of those suffixes conform to GTA/GTB specs, so depending on the specific design a vintage 6SN7GT might not be a suitable substitute for a recent production tube identified only as a 6SN7. Also, I believe the VT-231 that was suggested is equivalent to a 6SN7GT, and does not meet GTA/GTB specs. Finally, FWIW I had used a matched quartet of 1950’s Sylvania 6SN7GTB’s in my VAC Renaissance 70/70 for a couple of years, with great results. One of them eventually developed a microphonics problem, and I replaced it and its counterpart in the other channel with a matched pair of 1950’s General Electric 6SN7GTB’s, which I have found to be excellent performers despite their low price. Along the way I’ve also tried Raytheons (pretty good), CBSs (yuk), and initially a new set of VAC-supplied Chinese tubes (one abruptly shorted out in a rather spectacular manner after two hours of use, and I haven’t let any of the others get anywhere near my system ever since). Best regards, -- Al |
Hello Walter, Some people say that the VAC REN 30/30 may be a bit sweeter and organic than the more powerful 70/70 (if you don’t require the additional power). I can’t comment on that comparison but I believe that both are terrific amplifiers . The Coincident Frankenstein is superb for my needs however I feel that the LM 508ia is also superb and a wonderful match with your Daedalus Ulysses speakers. A friend of mine had the Absolare Passion Signature 845 PSET mono blocks and we listened to a variety of 845 tubes. NOS RCA,Elrogs, Shuguang, Psvane Hifi and their W.E.Replica version. The best sounding were the Elrog and Psvane W.E.Replica, these two stood out without question in our opinion. Elrogs are Uber expensive and can have some reliability issues. The W.E.aren’t nearly as costly (although they aren’t cheap either) proved to be very reliable and sound excellent. Overall in terms of value and absolute sound quality I enthusiastically recommend this tube. Your 508ia is high caliber and will exploit the top quality tier of tubes. Charles |
@waltersalas I can't speak for your Line Magnetic amp but in my own amp a PP EL34 I picked up some Sylvania 6SN7 GTB's from seller realdeal on here back in March and they sound fantastic. He seems to have more for sale: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tubes-sylvania-6sn7-gtb-nos-platinum-matched-octet-2016-11-27-acce... No affiliation other than having made a satisfying purchase. Happy listening and congrats to Jkull on your new amp have fun rolling those 12ax7's! |
Chris- I know I am not as well rounded and experienced in the variety of amplification out there. But I can tell you that everything I've read about these amps is displayed with this 219ia. I listen to everything from jazz, to Fiona apple, to behemoth. It is doing is all with grace. You read a lot about single end triode amps being magical with vocals and acoustics, and this is so true. However, I am loving how amazing something like speed metal sounds at lower volumes. Seperation in instruments, cutting midrange that is smooth, and the worry of bass control with it is out the window. Bass is great, and that is even with NO negative feedback (I prefer it off). I am considering rolling some tubes now. Not the 845's but maybe the 12AX7's. I'm open to advice on where to start! |
Hi Charles, I had and loved the VAC Ren 70/70 for several years, but sold it along with the matching preamp and then bought the Devialet, which sounded "good" but in the end just did not engage me emotionally. In short, I missed that old tube magic and just was not spending any time listening to music. At that point, convenience and technology are beside the point. Eventually, I would like to find the VAC's little brother, the 30/30, but until then, this LIne Magnetic appears to be a real winner. Once it breaks in, it will be fun dialing it in with the right tubes. It is a powerhouse, that is for sure. I really wanted to hear those Frankensteins of yours, but couldn't find anybody nearby who had them. Luckily for me, there is an LM dealer just a few hours down I-40. Have a good evening. Chris |
When I used to tube roll with my PP amplifier’s 6SN7 drivers the RCAs and Sylvanias from the 1940s-1950s were very good. Waltersalas ironic your experience with amplifiers. You preferring 1930s technology (SET) to the state of the art (the future is here now) Devialet. Nonetheless I thoroughly understand your choice. I believe that the 508ia will keep you happy for many years. DHT 300b driving DHT 805 in a minimalist pure class A circuit supported by a robust power supply. Some things in audio are just timeless. Charles |
While I have no experience with Line Magnetic integrateds, I have tried numerous 6SN7's in several VAC amplifiers and a two different Modwright digital sources. While I wanted to love NOS Tung Sol's, I found them a bit hot sounding on top. The best I have found and currently use are 1940's vintage RCA VT-231's. I bought mine from Brent Jessee Recording and Supply. They will run you about $200 for a pair. |
After a failed experiment moving from tubes to a Devialet-based system, I punted a few months ago, sold the Devialet, and have painstakingly rebuilt my system. I am currently auditioning the 508ia as the final piece of the puzzle. The fit and finish of this amp are astonishing at this price point, and even with less than fifty hours on it, it is clear that this is a special amp. For those of you who have rolled in NOS tubes--especially the 6SN7 and 6SL7 tubes--what have you tried? As you would expect, the stock tubes--Electro Harmonix and Sovtek--are a little bit on the hard or rough side, although some of that is no doubt due to the low number of hours on it as well. I'm thinking some good old Sylvania Bad Boys or Tung Sol round plate black glass might just do wonders for this amp, but I would love to hear what others are trying and liking. |
Couple days in and I am loving the amp. Currently running off 4ohm taps with the negative feedback off. Cornwalls crossed over at 40Hz to the sub. The amp sounds great at low levels, and as i increase the volume the amp does not cause fatigue. I admit, my ’new’ listening room is not optimal right now, nor treated by any measures. 14x16, 8’ ceiling, very dense jatoba hardwood floors, and a 3x5 window on one wall. I’m still sitting on the floor while listening! I have a 6x8 throw rug down. I’ll be putting a couch in there later this month. I will also be adding some sort of fabric wall decor of some sort above the couch to help absorb. All of this should help with reflections to a noticeable degree in a rather square and ’hard’ surfaced room. I am most of all considering the decware ZP3. If a chunk of what I’m liking about this amp is the result of being a SET circuit, I feel like I mine as well stick with a SET circuit for my phono pre amp. Majority of my listening is records, so a good phono is important. The decware stuff maintains its value well anyhow. One just went for sale on the 3rd of this month however, it sold that day so.. Goes to show. I don’t think I could go wrong with it.. Meanwhile I have a confession. This is like I said a ’new listening room’. This being said my amp is sitting on a 2.5" thick wood cutting block with thick cloth feet lol. My friend will be ordering lumber to begin construction a 2 tier custom shelving system out of either walnut or tiger maple, with spike isolation feet on the bottom and between the two shelves. Amp and turntable will go on the top shelf obviously freeing them from any vibrations. im just rambling...! |
I have to agree with jkull regarding the looks and sound of the 219 vs. the 518. But regarding the appearance of the 219, no matter how many pictures you see, and from what angle, seeing this amplifier face to face is really an experience. I think that anyone who is interested in 2 channel audio, tube lover or not, will get chills. It is just a thing of beauty! Even if you don't consider it beautiful, I still think you might get chills. What a design! |
Migueca- Thank you. If you dont mind the price difference, go with the 219ia. It is the flagship of the line, and has its massive transformers and beautiful midrange. It also is a true dual mono design. Is the 508 as well? I know the 518, 218 etc, are not, and believe, that the 508 is not as well. Im happy with the pre amp in this thing as of now. Maybe down the line Ill think about sampling some others in the mix. Id probably upgrade the 12AX7’s in here first for a while. If looks matter to you, that's another thing. If looks matter, I give the 219 the edge, between the silver finish, and large wattage gauge display, it is a beautiful piece, glowing in your room with the lights off (I always listen with the lights off. Makes you focus more on the music IMO).. however, to each the own, the choice is yours once you listen |
jkull, Congratulations and happy listenings! I haven't decided yet which model to buy - 508ia or 219ia - but will get one soon. I am also planning a visit to Line Magnetic factory, I'm very curious to see how they make these beauties (I live nearby). One thing that most of the people advise is to connect a good preamplifier to the 219ia. Apparently the sound improves a lot! I can't tell because I've always listened to it "solo". You have many possibilities to try different arrangements, just enjoy! |
