I just went from 2 channel amp to mono blocks. Is it important that I stop using 4 meter audio quest rocket 88 and downsize to 6 ft? Will there be an audible improvement?
I am using Kimber Summit Series
Bifocal XL 2.0 Meters each terminated with WBT610 CU Banana Connectors. Part # BFXL2.0MP0610Cu Between my monoblocks and my speakers which accept this connector and they split the Hi Frequency & Lo Frequency. Extremely nice. Check them out:
https://www.kimber.com/customize/BIFOCAL-XL Nearly any length you wish....I wouldn't make mine any longer. Best, Steve
@OP, No reason to be 'anxiously waiting'. Those cables are going to 'rock your world'. They did to mine. Whatever Garth Powell is doing, you can be sure it will be for the positive. Bob
Just one more comment, as a way of making an analogy.
Going from the Rocket 88 to William Tell Zero is analogous to looking at beautiful scenery through a highly transparent and very clean pane of glass. And then, opening the window. Enjoy!
@kozka, OK then, if you wish to be so picky about someone's choice of words for a description then I will restate if, just for you.
"You will be very pleased with the way these cables carry an electrical current".
This really doesn't seem to express much in the way of emotion or musical pleasure. At least, not to me. But if that makes you happy I am glad to have provided the adjustment. Please do have a safe and healthy Memorial Holiday.
I'm using a 3meter of external Biwired rocket 88 you have a 4meter pair you can send them to Audioquest to be reterminated 2meter external Biwired pair
Looking back to yesterday, I hope that everyone had a safe and healthy Labor Day Holiday. Looking back a few months, I hope you enjoyed the Memorial Day Holiday, too.
"Looking back a few months, I hope you enjoyed the Memorial Day Holiday, too."
Of which year? Hey, with you we never know.
Isn’t it strange that many places around the world celebrate Labor Day on May 1st to commemorate the American Federation of Labor resolution? At the same time, the location where it took place celebrates it in September.
In any case, Happy Valentine’s Day everyone. You pick the year.
The cables shall be calculated per DF and length. As higher the DF thicker the cable shall be. If your monoblocks are tube Amps, the cable is insignificunt as those Amps have very low DF.
If the Amps are SS or digital the DF is high and the cable's thickness is critical. It is not about the brand or the model. It's the resistance value.
Tell me what is you New monoblocks DF is and what length you would like to have (mostly a requirement per location, and I'll recommend you what the thickness shall be.
The DF is 530 (https://www.krellhifi.com/products/solo-575-xd-mono-amplifier/technical-specifications/). It’s a relatively high DF. For 6ft a #0 AWG is recommended. But why 6ft.? As your Krell 575XD is equipped with XLR input, use as long as you wish XLR to XLR between the monoblocks and the your Pre. Use as short cable as you can between the speakers and the Amps. If you would go down to 3ft (1m) you could do with #4 AWG. If you could do 1.5ft (0.5m) you could use #8 AWG. This is why monoblocks: to be placed as close to the speakers. So you better use it and go that way...
This is a cable you can work with, to connect to such banana plugs: https://www.ebay.com/itm/8x-Nakamichi-24k-Gold-Plated-Audio-BFA-Banana-Speaker-Plug-Screw-Cable-Wire... Find a US supplier, as China / Hong Kong do not have shipping because the COVID-19 blockdown. (US price: less than $10.-) Find an #8 AWG OFC cable (USA made) on eBay and order some. A simple soldering would make the desired connections (don’t use the mini screws supplied). I guarantee that this is the best and lower cost solution you may get. Even a thicker cable, won’t improve sound. Any thinner or longer, will sound less good. Tested and proven mathematically.
@b4icu, If I read it correctly, the 6 foot cables are the speaker cables, not interconnects. And, though your 8 guage wire will probably sound good, I can tell you it won't hold a candle to AQ cables, let alone the William Tell. - And, this is coming from a person who didn't believe cables could make a significant difference.- That is, until I listened to them with my own ears. Bob
At a time you believe in what you hear, I am a guy that do engineering and science. There is a way to calculate a cable’s thickness using DF and length. So I just did.
We are way beyond the acknowledgement that speaker cables do effect sound. The only problem is that you do not whay and what to do to maximize it. I do!
Do AQ cables or William cables do? I’m sure they don’t. Even the big names have no idea what they are doing. Trust me on that.
The nice thing is, that if you would like to improve that result, let’s say by adding thickness to the cable, beyond that figure I calculated, there will be no improvement in sound! 6 ft is for a short speaker cable for a stereo amp. Not for two monoblocks. If you went for monoblocks, spending the money and space, take advantage of it. Make your speaker cables as short as you can. That’s the right and best way to do it.
@b4icu, Yes, science can help determine things, but one issue is what is being measured and how it relates to human hearing. - The latter being a variable that has no one set status, as each individual has different hearing abilities. This alone renders any scientific interpretation moot. Add to this that even though your engineering and science measurements relate to something measurable (say electrical conductivity), it has no relation to sound quality. And, if you are serious about scientific and engineering, then why not put them to the test? I would be interested in your results. Bob
As audio signals are AC and hence impacted by impedance and not simple resistance, I am not seeing the technical merit nor the evidence of engineering or science of using a simple DC value for dissipation factor to determine a cable. It also only considers the source impedance but not the load impedance which are equally important in energy transfer.
If someone would like to post their reasoning so that others could analyse that would be beneficial.
Mr.
dannad I see no particular reason why would you argue over things that you never had tried, but only critic. This is beyond understanding.
Your say about AC and Impedance are all wrong! Do homework and see: Wikipedia is explaining DF as: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor) "damping factor gives the ratio of the rated impedance of the loudspeaker to the source impedance. Only the resistive part of the loudspeaker impedance is used. The amplifier output impedance is also assumed to be totally resistive. The source impedance (that seen by the loudspeaker) includes the connecting cable impedance."
You assume that the "load impedance is equally important". I say that the load impedance is insignificant in my analysis. Even though, they are called "Speaker Cables", they are part of the Amp's output stage and the load. Look at the Wikipedia / DF again. It is specifically says so.
On my side I can say that my calculations been proved many times to be accurate and be the best cable for the system. I also checked that adding thickness above that value is insignificant! It sounds the same as the calculated thickness.
However, all others: you, the big cable brands down to the last of them - have no idea what cable you need for your system. That goes down to the sals guys, that spread BS with a shovel. As you can see on my recommendation of the #8 AWG cable, it is not reaching US $50. For that money you mostly buy nothing from a big cable brand. At the time that nothing will sound better than the $50 cable at this particular system.
Do you really think and recommend to use a copper wire between your Amp and speaker as the sound tweaker (Equalizer)? I'm sorry if your taste buds would like better the sound of a poor cable over a good one. I've seen the fenomena. I was involved in a demo that the guy had some "MID" fetish. He loved his mid. As the #0 AWG cable was connected, all the sudden a deep rich bass stepped in. Like a good sub was added. He said that the #0 AWG cable killed his mid! What it did, is only enhanced the lows. The sound was clear and dynamic. Resolution was better. But he loved the mids and nothing more. From the levels of volume he liked to listen, I think he had a survivor hearing problem. But why do a calculation or a measurement, if that condition (no common sense) is the judge?
I can only assume then b4icu that you are unable to discuss and / or justify using on a DC damping factor and your level of knowledge is Wikipedia? People who know there topic well don't tend to call on Wikipedia for validation.
DF is a definition. That is all. It does not define the totality of energy transfer from an amplifier to the driver on a load speaker.
Similarly, the cables are as much the first part of the loudspeaker as they are the last little part of the amplifier no matter what you have interpreted from a Wikipedia article.
If you up can't even address the impact of cable impedance on signal transfer of an AC signal a figure which carries far more meaning than a DC DF, then how can I take you seriously?
I didn’t defined what DF is or how it is measured. Don’t blame me on that. However, we should all use it as is. You can’t go in your own way. DF is not about energy transfer. Its is about controlling the load (comlex). If you would like to compare it to a car engine, as Power of an Amp. in Watts, equals to an engine power in HP. The DF is the equivalent of it’s torque. No matter how much power your engine has, a poor torque will custrate it. So using thin cables on a high DF Amp. is like using a thin tube drive shaft that tumbles, or one made of rubber, rather than steel.
Did you ever try what I’m saying, before you go on and on arguing? From your basics misunderstanding the roll of the cables, the DF and the link between the two, I assume you just argue for the fun. No particular reason.
I don't think you want to play this game with me. Given you need to use Wikipedia for validation, I don't think you are qualified to go down this path.
From your basics misunderstanding the roll of the cables,
True DF, not just DC DF, is not constant. In fact, most people don't use DF in a blind DC fashion, but refer to DF as a variable that changes with frequency, and it most certainly does, sometimes a huge amount over frequency depending on the amplifier architecture.
Of course, there is the simple fact that the "load" is much more complex than just the two terminals on the speaker, and if you are talking "control" there is quite a bit between those terminals and the air moving, and that load is not constant either, but changes with frequency.
And yes, it is about transferring energy, and you can't control the load, unless you are transferring energy, and as it turns out, the point of maximal energy transfer is a good approximation of best load control. Ultimate load control, i.e. lowest distortion movement of the speaker element, is not at all guaranteed at the lowest damping factor / speaker cable impedance. In some cases, some resistance is a good thing as it damps speaker movement so it stops in a controlled fashion as opposed to ringing. Think of overly stiff springs poorly matched to shocks and you will get the idea.
Of course, when you realize that voice coil resistance and component impedance can be several ohms, and varies with manufacturing and temperature by several percent, that talking about resistances of 0.01 or less becomes somewhat meaningless.
You spend so many words for nothing. Did you ever tried my way? So many did and the results were fantastic. Lets try this one: Tell me what is your Amp's DF and speaker cable length. I'll calculate for you the required #AWG. Than you implement it. After listening to the new cable (thick), compare it with the old
cable (thin), we can return to this conversation. Till then, you are just wasting our time. You are arguing for no reason, about something you didn't try nor understand. It's an absurd to continue this. Sorry.
Mr. dannad
From study of the cables relation to load (speakers) and drive (Amp), My analysis point of view is that I need to look into the Amp's output through the speaker cables. As so, the speakers are not a part of it. It proved to be true, when I used very easy speakers to drive (Klipsch Forte-II) with 99dB/w/m SPL with a 250W Carver Amp. Or a B&W 802 D, with a 250W PASS LAB. On both, speakers were ignored (as my analysis suggests), cables calculated, tested and proven to be correct. The definition of DF is for pure resistive values. The cables are part of it. A thick copper wire has such a low resistance, that the other C and L are irrelevant. So why AC?
Well you can come up with a theory, but it also need to work in reality. Mine do. What about yours?
I need to show you nothing. Parasitic capacitance? My cables are singles. To have capacitance you need two cables (plates).
Parasitic capacitance
do not apply for my solution. You didn't answer my question! when you do, we can continue.
1. I was not answered properly. So till then, you can post questions...for others. I’m not in your game.
2. The cable’s parameter to go with, is not Fr. nor C and L. 3. Even though you wish, I’m not going to play your game. 4. My cables are not 5mm apart. they can be at any distance as they are separate. I have 4 cables for 2 speakers. they are individual. I've told you that already and you do not listen, or ignore it deliberately.
Mr. dannad I’m still waiting to your answer: What is your Amp’s DF? What is your cable length?
As for your claim, if 5mm apart = 0.4ohm, and 4’’ (10cm) = 1.2 ohms, than a 1 meter apart, that cables would become a high value resistors... I don’t think so! The AWG table say nothing about it. a #4 AWG, 3m long is 0.00243 ohms. It can drive 60A @ 650Hz. At 1.8A it will have a full BW of 21 kHz. At that Fr. you never reach 1.8A...
Mr.
dannad It was a dubious conversation. We started out with short and thick cables between monoblocks and speakers, ended up with orchestrated BS. You was kind enough to draw the conversation off tracks as far and low as possible. Sorry, but none of the stufe is relevant. Just like so many with speaker cable salesman and makers, you think that snake oil is the solution. Well, NO!
You should go to Snake River Audio website, his interconnects and speaker cables are hands down the best I've heard, for bi-wiring he uses a true shotgun style cable (which means no stacking of banana's or doubling up on spade connectors at amp end) his top of the line models uses three different precious metals wbt connectors, well built and impressive sound.
@lolroyy4, Uneven speaker cables are generally considered a no-no, especially when using them at long runs. There might be issues with capacitance, as well as cable artifacts. Perhaps eric squires will chime in?
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