Dave b, I noticed that you at one time had the newer s300i. Why did you decide to stick with the 400xi over the newer model?
I have not been able to check one out but I have heard rumours that it is a bit polite and not quite as dynamic as the 300iL/400xi models. |
Dave b, I noticed that you at one time had the newer s300i. Why did you decide to stick with the 400xi over the newer model?
I have not been able to check one out but I have heard rumours that it is a bit polite and not quite as dynamic as the 300iL/400xi models. |
It sounded very fine indeed when I heard one a ways back driving Martin Logan and Focal Profile speakers at a local Tweeter.
If someone trashed it it was probably in a mismatched system somehow or else it was a defective unit. Quality control on some of the Krell stuff is not a slam sunk for me. There was also a Krell CD player in that system that was quite quirky. And I've heard other Krell setups that should have sounded good and did not. |
I still have the 400xi and love it! The Stereophile review does an extreme injustice to the 400xi, which must have involved a defective unit. I've driven Krell resolution 2's and my maggie 3.6R's at concert levels with no strain, compression or distortion whatsoever. In fact, I've never heard a better rendition of high frequencies. The Soundstage review nailed it on the head...word for word, that review captures what the 400xi can do and does for me:O) |
Never have I ran across a more polarizing subject than the Krell "sound".
I have tried out many, many fine integrated amps and a few separates by Bryston, Parasound and Proceed. I ended up keeping my Krell KAV 300iL as somewhat of a cost performance compromise.
Some of the bashing that the 300iL/400xi take is completely out of line. I have owned products that I really disliked but will never badmouth. I will state my experience, associated equipment and make a hopefully coherent opinion on the products pros and cons.
I am using the 300iL to power my Dynaudio Contour 1.3 SE monitors and feel that it is a beautiful match-up. I was reading another thread and the bash was abouth the "small" transformer. I called Krell and was assured that the transformers are 800 VA. Now that is not huge but but adequate for the power rating into 8 ohms. The power consumption is 1100 watts. These figures are far from inadequate. Look at the numbers of comparably priced and powered integrated amps and check out their numbers. There are a great number of supposedly very powerful amps out there utilizing 350 VA, 400 VA transformers, yet they are not bashed.
I have read the now legendary Stereophile review of the KAV 400xi as well as the measurements by John Atkinson. Always mentioned is that it did not double its power into 4 ohms but 350 wpc is none the less very impressive and the 290 wpc clipping power into 8 ohms is never mentioned, not once. Also J.A. didn't do the dynamic power output test that he so fond of doing with many amps. This begs the question: Why not?
I am not a Krell guy, an NAD guy, a Bryston guy, but a music lover. It seems that Krell has taken the place of McIntosh as the brand that audiophiles love to hate. I am not out looking for the flavor of the week, latest and greatest, outdated old and moldy next week product. I enjoy fine sounding, well engineered products and the Krell KAV 300iL/400xi meet those criteria for ME. YMMV.
You see, my results may have been different by far if I owend B&W 805s or the such. The sound depends on the WHOLE system! Dynaudios are known for their smooth treble, low efficiency and lightning fast transient response which to me makes them and Krell a great match. If you want to say that a product sounds like crap at least take the time to state your associated equipment, other than that your opinion is less than useless.
My equipment experience: Krell KAV 300iL,Definitive Tech. BP-10, Dynaudio Audience 52, Dynaudio Contour 1.3 MkI, Dynaudio Contour 1.3 SE, YBA YA201, NAD C320BEE, Bryston 2B, Parasound HPA1000, Proceed AMP2, PS Audio 4.6, Cambridge Audio 840A, Creek 5350SE, NAIM Nait5i, Arcam CD73, Pioneer BDP-51FD.
Ultra high end? No. Esoteric? No. Very good? Yes! |
i'm glad it has come to the end now... appraud... Nice Presentation all ^^v |
I see Audiofool is up to his usual nonsense on this thread also. As an authority of everything, he knows no limits. |
I did some homework on capacitance, inductance and energy storage in electrical devices (such as crossovers) and cables. Even conventional cables store energy, as do crossovers...ENERGY!! The musical signal is in the form of a flow of electrons, which tend to build up potential energy within devices (crossovers) and cables...even under normal, non-networked(MIT cables) or high capacitance crossover design (Krell ACT), conditions. In other words, Audiofeil's slam of my understanding regarding energy storage or anything else audio for that matter, is an expression of arrogance and ignorance. Being old and an owner of an audio distribution outlet does not equate with valuable advice or knowledge apparently. Next time you slam someone or dismiss them out of hand, make sure you have first hand knowledge or experience with a product or concept! Now pick out a select qoute from the archives and then offer a vague condescending rebuke (minus anything substantive of course). |
Dkzzzz, it is spelled Ayre and it is a fine product even though it's power rating is low. Very transparent and fairly dynamic with a neutral presentation. The 400xi is bolder, more dynamic and extended with tons more drive and a sense of "you are there" like none other near it's price range...several reviewers who have managed to set their units up properly have agreed:) |
Ayer Integrated > Krell KAV |
Dkzzzz,
Surprises me from your description of what you are looking for that you did not care for the Krell at all. Maybe just lack of synergy...ie not a good fit with the rest of your system? No blown tweeters or anything like that right?
This is a just speculation. As I mentioned in the other thread, I think a trip to Sound By Singer which I am familiar with and/or even Stereo Exchange from what I've heard in lower Manhattan is the best solution. There has to be something there that can fit the bill. You should plan to spend time listening to the recordings you are not happy with on a system similar to yours, hear what you hear, and then determine where to go from there. |
Elberoth2, I did further investigation with krell and there are multiple oversized polypropelyne capacitors in the ACT crossovers of the Resolution series speakers for maximum current handling and power delivery...happens to lower inductance as well. Do not capacitors store energy? |
Exactly, the Avalon/Boulder combo has a great sense of aliveness and dynamic contrasts not unlike what I've experienced with Krell components and many great speaker systems. I must admit i wish I still had my FPB600...that was glorious:) |
The music had a nice and I recall very distinctive energy to it regarding overall dynamics with the Krell on the Focals and even on the Martin Logans. Not sure I could equate it exactly to anything else I've heard...very unique. IS that the "Krell" Sound?
Would like to a/b it someday with some other amps in order to get a better handle on exactly what it was about it that sounded distinctive. I think it was resolution and good dynamics, but not certain.
Closest other system I've heard recently to compare was perhaps Avalon speakers with Boulder amplification, which also had a very unique and detailed sound to my ears. |
I have found the krell to give you a garbage in garbage out effect...darkness is not endemic to the unit either. It IS rather dependant on the ancillaries and cabling. As for the volume control issue, I have always sought out a preamp/gain stage that utilizes 50% to 75% of it's range. This allows for maximum dynamics and transparency while rendering exceptional low level detail. |
Also I was under the impression that all amps produce a lot of heat when operating in class a mode? Nothing surprising there. |
I've heard the Krell integrated with Cambridge 840c source, decent audioquest cables and with both larger Focal Profile and Martin Logan speaks on several occasions.
Liked it a lot with the Focals. Not so much with the MLs. The sound was too dark and clinical for me, though the transparency imaging and soundstage were excellent with both.
I recall the gain had to be set to high values but it had no trouble driving either speaks to realistic volume.
I liked it enough from what I heard that I would give it serious consideration for my system at its price point, pending further listening.
Popular things often draw a lot of critique,both good and bad, just because they are popular.
Seems like Krell does have a lot of strong competition these days. |
Elberoth2, I was told that they tended to store energy. Perhaps what my dealer meant was that they pass on the signal more efficiently thereby acting as if they were providing more energy on demand. I have noted that they seem to be easier to drive than most speakers and handle loud peaks on complex material extremely well with only my 400xi driving them. Below is a list of the components I have owned:
AMPS
Levinson 332 and 336
ARC VT100, VT200, VS110 and HD220
Krell FPB600, 400cx, 350Mcx's and Evo 402
BAT VK75se and VK500
Mcintosh 501's
PREAMPS
Levinson 380s, No.32 reference
ARC LS25, LS26, Ref2 and Ref3
Krell KCT and evo222
Mcintosh C46
BAT VK3i and VK5ise
Speakers
Wilson Watt/Puppy 6's
B&W 801N
Dunlavy SC-V's
Martin Logan Odyssey's
Totem Wind, Forest and Hawk
Dynaudio C4's
Krell Resolution 2's
Cables
Transparent Ultra and Reference MM
MIT Magnum and Oracle V2.2
HT Truthlink and Magic cables
Mapleshade various on trial
Geortz Veracity
XLO
Synergistic Designers Reference
Tara The One
Signal Cable
Shunyata various on trial
memory fades on the rest!
CD/SACD
Sony SACD-1 and 777es
Levinson 39 and 390s plus 37 and 360s combo
Wadia 860se
BAT VK D5
Musical Fidelity A5
Krell SACD Standard MKIII and Evo 505
ARC CD2
Probably forgot something but should qualify me as more than a neophyte:) |
Dave - you cannot "store" a musical signal in a cap. This, quite simply, is not possible from the technical point of view.
I know the concept behing Krell crossovers, since I have spoken about them with Dan-the-Man himself. My understanding is that they use over-sized components (like inductors wound with very thick wire) to make them "less-limiting", so to speak. |
I promote none of my products here Davey boy. I go out of my way in not doing that. Please pay more attention.
What you have experienced directly is a very narrow slice of the audio world and that is quite evident.
One need only to do a posting history to understand this.
In closing please understand I've owned more components than you've heard. |
Audiofeil continues his generalizations while not getting directly involved in the topic at hand. Call MIT or Krell and ask them yourself. Again, I state that Audiofeil is all about Audiofeil and what he has to sell. By the way, many excellent reviewers and audio industry veterans have had similiar experiences to mine. Audiofeil attempts to build a sort of "Guru" mystique for himself while standing on one foot..er, while listening on one pair of speakers, or do you have another brand to offer now. I embrace all things audio and keep an open mind. I talk about what I have experienced directly. Audiofeil's elitist and dismissive discourse speaks volumes toward the degree of merit one should place upon his remarks. |
MIT Oracle cables are a completely different animal than Transparent. I've owned both myself. The Oracle speaker cables do have caps in them and do store energy for quick release per my discussion with one of their representatives. The Krell crossovers work with an amp to pass on the energy to the drivers...it is called ACT and was/is a registered trademark. My dealer said they assist an amp by temporarily storing energy and reducing the load an amp experiences while driving the speaker. I'm not an engineer, but the ACT crossover design exists/existed in the resolution series speakers...I've seen the crossovers as well and they look like freakin amplifiers themselves. |
You'll have to forgive him Elberoth.
He really has no clue.
Check his posting history for verification. |
Dave,
I'm not your next Krell basher. In fact, I have owned some of Krell gear in the past, and I still use KAV-400xi/280CD combo in my office system. But what you have said is simply not true. This is some marketing mumbo-jumbo. I have toured Krell factory last year, and have seen those crosovers. Apart from the fact that they use lots of oversize components (like inductors the size of a big grapefruit) there is no magic here. There is absolutely no way (from the technical point of view) to "store" any energy in there.
Same goes for MIT cables. I have not toured MIT factory, but have toured Transparent Audio (which uses similar technology) and have seen those boxes beeing made. Also no magic here. Only a simple LCR circuit. |
Elberoth2, by WHAAAT? do you mean you do not grasp the concept or that you were not aware of the ACT patented crossovers in the Resolution speaker line from Krell. The crossovers were briefly mentioned in a krell promotional advertisement which can still be accessed under the krell archives on their website. |
The Res 2's have Amplifier Capable Crossovers which help the amplifier drive them...massive energy storage in the crossovers that is released as needed without having to wait for the current delay from the amp. My Oracle V2.2 spkr cables also operate on a similiar principle in that they have caps that store energy for immediate delivery to the speakers as needed. WHAAAT ???? |
2chnlben, forgot to answer the question regarding the Res 2's and power...yes, the 400xi performs amazingly well with the speakers and I listen at concert level or above much of the time! The Res 2's have Amplifier Capable Crossovers which help the amplifier drive them...massive energy storage in the crossovers that is released as needed without having to wait for the current delay from the amp. My Oracle V2.2 spkr cables also operate on a similiar principle in that they have caps that store energy for immediate delivery to the speakers as needed. |
I would love to hear the suggestions...
Which design in your opinion is better then most. Stock - not modded .....big difference.
My interest would be 250 to 500 watts for up to 3-4k used.
Personaly , I like Pass, Edge and BAT. Love the BAT but 6K used is a bit much..... |
Hey Dkzzzz,
You mentioned that you listen to LP's almost exclusively? What type of Phono Pre-amp are you using? What are your other sources. I can't argue with a person not liking his/her purchase but it is strange that you mentioned highs and low's as I've almost had the opposite experience. I found the bass to be light in comparison to previous Krell models and house sound. I thought the mid-range was open and honest and I had to pick a side I'd almost lean towards a darker presentation then a lighter. I think others have agreed with me.
I can say the same for the source, if your source player is digital and is etched then it surely won't be hidden by the Krell. Some would argue the Krell house sound is simply gain, I always thought of that as the best compliant you could get from an amplifier manufacture.
Audiofeil,
While I agree Dave_B can be off the charts with his praise and suggestions I would also like to point out that much of what you've cited is inaccurate. Krell is doing quite well, it is easier to dismiss one brand when not pinpointing a name in comparison. Krell sucks in comparison to the rest of the industry is vague at best. I'd like to know what you think is 'cutting' edge. I suspect there will be 100's of bashers with regards to your brands. Surely you influence your customers. If you aren't a Krell dealer then it would be ideal for you to play off the Krell name. This has been done for years with McIntosh, Wilson Audio and B&W. The fact that there are so many Linn, Naim, Krell, Wilson Audio, B&W and MAC bashers only suggests their dominance in the market place.
I think when comparing price-points in relation to competition the Krell name will be up there save their source players. |
I state my preferences, as do you, Audiofeil. Perhaps you missed the parts where I mentioned my lack of enthusiasm, and subsequent sale, of my Evo system. That's honesty, not chearleading. I talk about what I have found to be the best for ME...YOU pontificate about things audio as YOU see it. We ALL express bias: it is up to the reader to decide what information they should hold dear. |
THe KAV400xi is a fine amp for two channel, has excellent mids and bass, and sounds fantastic. There is something wrong with the thread author's system. Krell is on top of their game and this whining is simply more of the same stuff I have been hearing for several years now. They make fine gear, enough said.
Something is wrong with your system, my friend Dkzzz. Either that or you have colored it to death over the years and now your ears require some recalibration, which is also called accuracy. I would not be so quick to judge the amp until you let it settle in, at least three weeks. Gosh the need for instant gratification in this day and age at all costs will be the death of us all. BE PATIENT! |
>>I have been one of the biggest critics of krell here on A'gon<<
Not true.
You've been one of the biggest cheerleaders.
Also with MIT and Transparent.
Check the posting history. |
Dave, your callous disregard of DKzzzz's findings and name calling are the issues here, not my inventory. That is totally irrelevant and not germane to the thread.
Your attempt to dismiss what he hears as folly only reflects the myopic and narrow minded view you have regarding high end audio.
As I stated earlier, audiophiles have wised up and moved away from the overpriced and overrated brand you coddle and find so interesting. If you had the opportunity to hear and audition as much gear as I do in a week's or month's time you'd understand more clearly.
Instead you sit back and continue to believe your Desoto is the only transportation on the road.
Go figure. |
One further note for the record...I have been one of the biggest critics of krell here on A'gon, but I am fair minded enough to give quarter when it is warranted. |
Dave I forgot to list the cables that I used with krell. They are copper 16AWG. Do you think that might be a problem? Do I need to use something like "Super braided anaconda triple jaguar cables"? Or "Viking Axe Armageddon transparent" power extension cord?
I would take Audio refinement Complete amp over Krell any time of the day. Krell KAV400 with all its useless power consumption and output has no meat in its sound. High pitch treble and happy bass cover everything in between. Listen to orchestral works on it you hear bass and soloist the orchestra is a moshpit. Well this is a typical Home-theater sound. Actually Krell states their application goals for Krell KAV400 right in the manual. While you running to read it please don't skip a big paragraph where Krell has a special message for you Dave about powercords. They should have put it in red block letters for audioprofessors like you. |
Yes, the 400xi doubles it's power output into 4ohms. It's very odd when someone attacks a brand so feverishly. Especially when the attacks are broad baseless remarks. I like the 400xi at it's price point. Any number of other products exist that can generate great sound as well. What's the problem? Components are only as good as the system and environment allow...just as many people will line up to praise one component as another. Audiofeil is all about Audiofeil and whatever his inventory holds. FYI, several reviews of the 400xi have been done over the years...check them out and listen for yourself. If you don't like it then go elsewhere. DKzzzz seems suspicious to me based upon the lack of detail put forward in his rantings. Normal individuals who review something explain their results, mention how they used a component and even note what music helped them to make a decision. I believe DKzzzz owned or owns Sonus Faber speakers..funny he should bad mouth them. By the way, the Krell KAV400xi offers unprecedented power and control for it's class with a pure Class A pre-driver stage, Current Analog Signal Transfer, a massive toroidal power supply, fully balanced circuitry, surface mount circuit design and remote operation...gee, I geuss it isn't innovative at all is it! I'm sure some standard old fashioned, underpowered, conventional tube unit from some online hack would be far more innovative. |
Dkzzzz is right.
I talk to dozens of customers and potential customers every week and virtually nobody is interested in Krell anymore. With the influx of new and more innovative manufacturers and products, Krell has lost its's position as a premier brand. Nice home theater but dinosaur high end.
Edsel
Corvair
Oldsmobile
Krell
You can cry and piss and moan and whine all you want Dave but that's the reality of the situation.
Of course when all else fails and you have no substantive argument you can always start calling Dkzzzz names again.
Works for you. |
Properly set up my system? You mean with proper fuses and power cords? :)
Dave why are you stocking my thread? Please troll somewhere else.
P.S. Is Maple really the best for isolation platforms? lol
As I mentioned before Krell is a dream machine for people with Home-theater goals. For anyone interetsed in 2-channel audio this amp is useless.
Let me put it this way. If you think that Sonus Faber or B&W are great speakers then Krell is a great amp for you. Krell KAV400 is Bose of high end audio. Highs and lows and nothing in between. |
Dave,
Does the Krell double the output as the impedance halves? Do you find the 400 watts into 4 ohms sufficient to run your Resolutions 2's? |
I only regret the spelling error, FYI. As for the comments from DKzzzz, it's obvious from his remarks that he is either blowing smoke or is unable to properly setup his system. Until he posts his system we can only guess as to the reasons for his less than stellar results. I respect opinions of others who present themselves with intelligent and well thought out reasons for their likes and dislikes. Many manufacturers make quality components. I have enjoyed a wide range of products over the years...DKzzz's rantings sound suspicious and biased. Me thinks he might not have purchased a 400xi at all! If he did, it was most likely used. |
>>DKzzzz, you are either a liar, a fool or an imbicile<<
Why, because he doesn't agree with you?
Appears to be the pot calling the kettle black.
BTW, it's imbecile not imbicile. |
Dave, He must have bought the 400xi used and got a defective unit. |
DKzzzz, you are either a liar, a fool or an imbicile! Of course it is also possible that you are all three. Please post your system so I can make a determination for you...wouldn't want you to suffer any further disapointments. I care about you man:) |
BTW just to add there is no mid range some highs and tight bass. I highly recommend Krell KAV 400 if you have your ears growing out of your rear and if you have cold house . Oh yes that peace of US engineering will save you money on heating.
Where is the music ,well it is not coming from this amp.
I am selling it after 15 minutes of owning this junk. |
I just hooked up Krell and it is awful. I have to turn the volume dial to 75 to get the same volume as my 50W YBA gets in 1/5 of the dial.
Krell gets 57C in about 20 minutes. How is this electronic marvel designed that it heats up just from being plugged into AC?
I switched back to YBA and heard more information and more treble believe it or not. Krell was only good at bass. |
My Krell is now 1.5 months old from new. I REALLY know I made the right choice. I was looking at a very different int. amp when I bought this. I KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT.
I think it is great for the price. It saved me money.
I go by how musical it sounds. It is the most balanced int amp in this price range you can buy. I do not mean just the balanced output. It puts every part of the music in the right place, without excessive detail to one instrument and not hearing another. This is hard to find.
More cd's sound good, instead of this one is great and
well this one goes to the bottom of the pile until I get something different.
THANKS FOR THE FUSE TIP DAVE !!!! |
DKzzz...you did wake up afterall! Enjoy the unit and don't forget some of the tweaks mentioned. |
I decided to go with Krell KAV400. MF from what I gather is a smooth sounding amp. I hate smooth sounding amps, speakers and people.
No surprise I don't like YBA or Audio Refinement or Tubes (tubes lol).
What surprises me is that people who have 30% of their treble hearing gone due to natural aging prefer equipment that has all those high frequencies, they cannot hear in a first place, electronically limited (rolled off). That is one subject to ponder for physiologists.
I'll make sure to update this thread with my review of Krell KAV once I set it up (plug it in that is). |
Fuses were purchased from the cable company..call Robert Stein and mention my name. He may even allow a trial..not sure:) |
I have never owned either, but one Minor point.
The Krell runs pretty warm...hot even. I listened for about an hour at the local emporium. The Krell was hooked to Magnepan 3.6r speakers, 4ohm and I don't know how bad an actual load. Within 20 minutes, the Krell was cookin'.
If you DO get the Krell make sure you have a Well Ventilated space. |
