Killing BluRay, new Oppo BR 83

Macdadtexas,

We will have to agree to disagree - perhaps my old school perspective is clouding my mind. I have not fully warmed to mass digital storage and playback of my music collection because I am so dumb I need/like to have the jewel case / record sleeve to remind me what song I am listening to and who is actually playing what instrument. I use iTunes a lot on my laptop when I am on the go and even though much ancillary information is embedded with the music files, I still find it an inferior interface all around to hard media.

I also find streaming video downloads are currently too unreliable/unstable and I am not yet pleased with the sound or video quality I get even when they happen to work to specs. Maybe these technical problems will all be solved and the user base will grow large enough fast enough to put pressure on the content providers to solve their legal and logistical problems and abandon BluRay and other physical media right away (except LPs in your new world order) in favor of all digital video and audio on demand all the time - but I doubt it.

All the things you say will come true someday at a scale of use broad enough to replace BluRay as the next video "format", but I say not for a while. People are apparently still going to Blockbuster and they have replaced about 60% of their DVD selection with BluRay disks in my neighborhood store.

Only time will tell.

It depends on size of screen and capability of audio system. DVD upsampling is remarkable these days - especially Oppo's. Nonetheless, BluRay disc has a pretty damn stunning sound. And I find Bluray via Oppo's new machine definitely stomps upsampled DVD's on my 42' plasma. I suspect that at 32' or less the difference would be marginal.

I've never been a collector of DVD's, just rent them from Netflix. I pay a buck or two extra per month for the Bluray option. Happy camper.

"Long term", who the heck knows. Even my 80 year old aunt tells me she hears on the TV news that LP records are making a comeback!
Art

Have not read the thread, but I can tell you this. On the video side of things Blu Ray is worlds apart from DVD. Audio - including Tru HD is far less impressive and I frankly hear vey little improvement over a traditional DTS soundtrack. This is mainly because of limitations og high rez over HDMI I believe.

I've now watched several Blue Ray movies on my Oppo BDP 83.

Super short review: Image quality is best I've seen, at least resolution wise. It's speedy at accepting and carrying out all commands. Negatives: Color is not as strong as my Pioneer Elite BDP-95FD and Oppo black levels are slightly washed out.

I read somewhere (here?) that there was an adjustment for black levels and such for the Oppo. So far I have not looked into that, but I've never adjusted anything on the Pioneer Elite either.

I did not listen to the movies through my full surround, so sound comments are limited to music only. With CD the sound is slightly analytical and lacking warmth and texture, also slightly forward compared to other CD players I've had, such as inexpensive Rotel, Elite BDP-95FD and McCormack UDP-1 Deluxe.

If I can get a deal on the new Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD, I'll probably sell both the Oppo BDP 83 and my current Elite BDP-95FD.

I've still never seen a HUGE difference in video quality from BluRay, from any player, to DVD upconverted well. Yes it does look better, but not VHS to DVD better. Anyone who says that needs to hook up an old VHS player, and take a look.

I find it funny that the rabid supporters of BluRay state you need a HUGE screen to see the difference. The whole point of this post was that I don't think BluRay is going to make it as the next mainstream format to carry entertainment, that means for 99% of the population who don't have projectors or the latest, greatest, largest screens.

I'm sticking to my guns on this one, BluRay may overtake DVD someday, but both will fall away and downloads for movies will join music downloads as medium by which people recieve this content.

I believe the quality of downloads can and will improve enough to make the differnce in quality from a BluRay disc not worth the effort to go out and rent it.

Maybe BluRay will be a niche market for videophiles and stay relevant as vinyl has (and thrived actually) with audiophiles.

I'm going to go turn on a record while I download an HD movie from iTunes.

Macdadtexas, You must not have watched the Blu Ray on the Oppo BP 83. Also, some Blu Ray discs are not that much better than their DVD counterparts.
Sad but true.

But some , like Tom Petty Live and such can be awesome !!

For movies ,watch the Remastered Blu Ray of "The Fifth Element" or "No Country for Men "on the Oppo BP 83 and you will retire your DVD player.
Even the sound is fantastic!

Macdadtexas,

You said at first:

"The advenet of internet based movie downloads is already available in HD. Granted, it's only 720 and no HD soundtracks, but does anyone believe that is not coming, and quickly. I love using my AppleTV to rent movies, never leave the house, and don't have to return. Honestly, I have bought a bunch of movies that way, since I have such a big network storage capacity. I think this will be the dominant AV format going forward, both movies and music."

Then you say:

"I'm sticking to my guns on this one, BluRay may overtake DVD someday, but both will fall away and downloads for movies will join music downloads as medium by which people recieve this content."

I agree, BluRay will overtake DVDs, and then downloads will overtake both.

I disagree that Internet downloads "will be the dominant AV format going forward..." from now on as you infer in your first post.

You can't have it both ways. Its like saying a 2 year old is a "dead person" because they will die someday. There is still a lot of life left in BluRay, and it is far from peaking. If in two years BluRay is already toast, you can revive this thread and rub my nose in my general lack of prescience.

I think blu ray looks way, way better than DVD. Much less grainy, much more crisp and detailed.

As big as the difference between DVD and VHS? No - but that is not relevant.

Streaming is annoying, there is always compression in both video and sound.

Knownothing (excellent Plato reference, btw),

I'm not "having it both ways" as DVD's go to zero, BluRay will prob still be produced, for the videophile.

Goatwuss,

Streaming gets faster all the time, and check out the speeds and available information bandwith's on the very nearly hear 4G technologies. These and other developed in in beta testing technologies should increase download speeds, and elimnate, or really more to the point, change the technology on compression.

Some others opinions.

On the software side:

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/blu-ray-disc/report-global-blu-ray-sales-jump-not-quite-enough-offset-dvd-decline-16088

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2009/05/12/best-buy-leads-retailers-in-blu-ray-disc-sales-surge/

http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2009/02/23/report:-blu-ray-disc-sales-top-100-million-year

On the Hardware side:

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6636897.html

http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2009/05/08/report:-blu-ray-player-sales-72%25-first-quarter

http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/05/06/blu-ray-player-sales-rising

And from the disks are dead crowd:

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/42950/99/

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Blu-ray+vs.+video+download+vs.+streaming.-a0200881654

The quality of Audio is better in Blue Ray because Blue Ray discs usually have lossless audio. In addition, the video bitrate is much higher than DVD. You will be able to make out the differences better if you have a large screen (50"+ screen size), and a good audio system.

Some excellent upscaling DVD players come close to a Blue Ray player in Video quality.

As has already been said, most people don't have the appropriate size monitor/screen size for the distance from which they view to appreciate the benefits of Blue Ray. As the size/price ratio value increases, as well as the acceptance of larger monitor/screens in domestic environments grows, this will change.
As Blue Ray machines near the $100 price point, they will become the natural replacement for DVD machines.
Most importantly I don't believe we'll have the universal band width for perhaps another 10 years, before hand held software is replaced.
While I don't expect the same success that DVD enjoyed, I suspect Blue Ray will enjoy a fairly healthy run for about 10 years.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10284342-1.html?tag=TOCmoreStories.0

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10288294-1.html?tag=TOCmoreStories.0

Bluray players are getting close in price to standard players, and Netflix charged just a couple bucks extra per month. Anyone with 40+ inch screen OR a high quality HT sound system would be crazy to NOT go to Bluray.
Art

I posted this on another thread but thought I would add it to this one also.

My Oppo 83 just arrived. So far it has blown away my Sony S500 BR and my Maraantz DV6400 SACD players. I know these players are not top of the line, I got them just to check out these formats. I have a few SACD's but the 83 has made me want more. With the BlueRay, the picture is much better and the loading time is now acceptable. As far as a CD player it is not to my liking. I am waiting for my new DAC to show up to see if I will like it as a CD transport. If not I may have the Oppo modded after the first year. I did take out an extended 1 year warrenty but I have blown more money on records I do not like than I did on the warrenty. I will also let it breakin for while before I decide to Mod it. I also like the fact that it has USB inputs.
Tried my XBox 360 HDdrive with no success. Thought I may be able to replace 3 players with one.

last night I rented "Watchmen" on AppleTV (terrible movie by the way) and to me it verified what I have been saying in this thread regarding the death of, not just BluRay but all disc distributed digital media.

When I first started the movie it was too dark and hard to discern details, so I made a few picture adjustments, and the picture was fantastic. My wife thought it was a BluRay disc. It was the best looking downloaded movie I have ever seen. It looked better than DVD's, even those upconverted on my Oppo BluRay player, and was fairly close to BluRay discs I have rented. Certainly close enough that I was glad I didn't drive my car to the store and rent it.

I still contend there is not a big enough difference in quality to make people go out and rent (maybe videophiles will still buy as we do with vinyl) software that can be downloaded that quickly. My movie was available in 5 minutes. As the technology continues to advance, especially 4G networks, this can and will become instantaneous, and full 1080p (and higher) video will become a commonly downloaded accurance.

I also believe that where there is demand for it, the higher resolution audio downloads will become more common. But the market for that seems fairly small right now, the common consumer is happy with MP3, and doesn't have the equipment to hear the difference. I believe that is what will happen with video as well.

.
Macdadtexas, do downloaded movies come encoded with hi-def DTS, or Dolby True HD? What type of sound are they encoded with? What was your experience with the soud quality?
.

No HD soundtracks yet. They come with standard Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtracks. Sounds very good though.

Macdadtexas, I still think things are years off before the internet will provide the quality the present Blu Ray disc does.
Also, my computer and my internet provider are not reliable enough to have the quality I am seeking in video/audio.
The fantastic video/ sound quality from Blu Ray can not be duplicated from the internet at this time.

Macdadtexas,

I will not agree or disagree about the future of Blue-Ray, or how many people will feel that BR makes enough difference to "invest in". I will, however, make an audio analogy: just as with truly great/neutral speakers one will hear differences that would otherwise be masked (and unappreciated), the same is true for video. The better the display (and associated audio system), the more one will appreciate BR. Just my two cents.

I've opted not to pursue BR. I just can't stomach investing in yet another format.

I picked up a very inexpensive Denon upconverting player, the 1940ci, which is just fine for my 40" display. I'll add an external DAC down the road, it see if it holds its own as a transport. SACD and DVD-audio are great, depending on the mastering of the disc, of course.

After that, I plan on converting all of my CD's to FLAC. I've already begun purchasing video content via Amazon VOD. Running a 2-channel rig, the picture is good and the audio acceptable.

As much as I hate to admit it, I have to agree with the OP in his assessment.

Just played a SACD DSD recording through the OPPO 83 outputting DSD.
It has a different sound than my Cary 306 SACD player but it is a very pleasing sound. The bass is clear and defined with pinpoint imaging.
I cant really decide which I prefer.
That is saying alot comparing a $499 Universal player to a $9000 dedicated CD/SACD player.

Even if you only use the OPPO for rented BR discs, the Video is fantastic and the SACD is reaaly great!

Parasound63, you do know that the BR players are backwards compatible?

Personally I think even inferior quality digital distribution will defeat blu-ray. The convenience factor of on demand downloading is tremendous.

Yes I do. I have nothing against BR per se- my decision was based on economics. I totally understand that the Oppo 83 is superior to what I ended up buying. It's also $410 more, and I can't justify the cost considering the size of my screen and lack of Blu-Ray content.

I for one don't want to waste my time watching downloaded movie over a good copy of blu ray. Same reason I don't listen to MP3 over a good CD or SACD for mere convenience. Each proponent has their reasons, mine is quality over qty and convenience.

Kenobi

I'm with Kenobi on this one.

Parasound63, that's a different kettle of fish, no?

Unsound- not sure I understand what you're referring to...

Parasound63, not that it's really important, but the reasons your recently offered for your opinion were a little different than what you origianlly posted. No big deal, if fact I see your point of view better now.

Thanks! I really respect your point of view, especially since you can be contrarian with a sense of humor. You certainly help keep my conflicting thoughts honest.

-P

For what it’s worth, happened to spend some time kicking about all these arguments with a relatively senior guy at Toshiba North America about the time that Toshiba decided to bow out of the old format war. The general thinking from the folks with a whole lot of $$$ on the line was that winning the war of attrition for the next physical disk format would be a relatively short-term phyrric victory. Trust me, I was first in line hoping for a victor so that I could sign up for the next format – but it took so long to actually shake out that, by the time it did, the next paradigm shift (to downloadable) seemed so close on the horizon that it just didn’t seem worth the bother. Toshiba, with infinitely more to gain or lose in the process, essentially made the same bet. I won’t claim any more insight than the next guy, but from where I’m sitting, seems like a prudent call.

That said, not sure that the same reasoning necessarily holds up on an individual consumer level. Sure, replacing a big DVD library with BR seems like a silly proposition. But, I generally rent and am not buying DVDs any more either. Purchased my Oppo before the BR version came out, and it suits me just fine. But had I waited for it, I’m sure I would have gone with the BDP 83 instead because: why not? No one disputes BR is better on both the picture and sonic front, so why on earth, if purchasing a new player anyway, wouldn’t I throw that in as an option for rentals? If software is rental-driven, the “investment” required to open the door is relatively negligible. Yet, having already recently thrown down for an upscaling universal (minus BR), I see no reason to re-upgrade just to include BR.

Seem to be coming out somewhere about a middle ground. My two cents, at any rate.

Very interesting forum...I'd be curious to see industry data on how quickly BR is proliferating. I suspect, for many of the reasons that Macdad posits, that the growth rate of BR is slowing and will shortly plateau.
Personally, I think the question for most people is not whether BR is qualitiatively much better than DVD (it is), but whether the difference is cost justified. Especially as the price of BR players keeps dropping, the industry will charge a substantial premium for BR media. As consumer spending habits have been (permanently?) changed by our current economic malaise, and people have gotten into a Depression-era mindset, I don't think most people will pay the premium.

i think the question should be:

are any BR players superior to CD players using redbook as format? obviously cost considerations are relevant. if i thought that , say, a $1000 BR player would be superior, sonically, to a CD player i own, i would be motivated to acquire a BR player. at this point, i am not.

OK, I just downloaded a video my kids wanted to see that I couldn't find on DVD or iTunes from Amazon. It downloaded in 30 minutes in HD (only 720) and watched it on both the computer, and was able to get it onto my 52" Sony LCD through the network pretty quickly.

That is the death of discs. Just as downloads are the death of CD's.

I think people will still buy vinyl, but I can't see any reason to use a disc anymore for a movie. Rent it online through your cable/satellite company, or Roku or AppleTV.

I won't post to this thread anymore, I am beating a dead horse. But, every day I believe that my original contention that BluRay will not become a dominant media format has already come true.

For those of you thinking about buying disc players of any kind, spend the money on a good DAC, or more media storage (for Movies) instead.

Macdadtexas , So you were able to download a 720p video and standard audio from the internet in 30 minutes.
Big Deal.
Thats not Blu Ray quality!!

I am still going to rent Blu Ray discs and play them in full 1080P and fantastic surround sound on my Oppo Blu Ray.

Macdadtexas,

So what you are saying is that the downloads are good enough for you now, and that it will probably be good enough for everyone else soon... end of (your) story.

I honestly think that there is a lot of work needed to make high quality downloads as user friendly as plopping a disk into a player and pushing the "play" button. The downloaded audio is nowhere near the same level of resolution as BluRay, where the difference can even be detected by non-audiophiles listening to very modest Theater-in-a-Box BluRay systems, let alone listening to the Oppo or higher level players feeding a modest to extravagant audiophile system.

But the real issue here is video quality and many more people are able to detect and care about differences in video resolution compared with audio resolution, why I think BluRay has a better chance in the marketplace vs downloads than SACD vs iTunes. For now, BluRay is 50% higher video resolution (1080p) than what is available from downloads (720p at best), noticeable even on modest sized HD screens (except I will grant you that the smaller Pioneer plasma screens at 720p have such great color and image depth, you might forgive them their lower level of resolution).

For the occasional viewer of movies, a decent 40" or larger screen with a BluRay in-a-Box theater system, both available from Costco for well under $1500, playing a BluRay disk will provide the highest level of enjoyment per ongoing $ invested hands down - without the added HD download subscription costs. Increase the quality of the playback components from there and BluRay totally kicks a$$. The question you will ask is - who cares?

I suggest that the combination of familiar technology (disk and player versus download and local storage) and noticeably higher video performance will create a useful product life cycle for BluRay. Interestingly, the BluRay format will likely receive the greatest support, at least initially, from opposite ends of the consumer spectrum. High level consumers who want the very best audio and video performance will or have already opted in, and those entry level consumers who are least comfortable with computers, networks and online services or who don't want or can't afford the extra expense of HD downloads services will choose BluRay. What I will call here the "iPhone generation" will gravitate to downloads first because they are A) comfortable with networks, downloads and attracted to shiny new gadgets and formats, B) accepting of low resolution video and audio as long as they can get it "NOW", and C) tolerant of or oblivious to exorbitant monthly subscription charges.

Finally, even if the majority of people eventually go to downloads as the preferred source for regular viewing, they will want a system to view disks and share media (it is less rewarding to wrap a gift certificate with a download code and put it under the tree in December) and with DVDs being replaced on store shelves with BluRay disks, that will be the format used for fixed media going forward into the foreseeable future.

I think movie download will have the same issue DIVX had. After a while the companies will want more money. They will start adding date codes to the downloads. People downloading will have so much time to watch what they download then they will have to pay to watch it again at a later date.
If you loose the harddrive and want the movie again you may have to pay again. If someone hacks codes the companies will start sueing people like they are for CD downloads. Keep very good records of your download purchases. All they need is your name from another computer good or bad to come and take all you have. If I have an original disk they can do nothing.

To each his own.

Holy Moly - Bluray quality kills DVD - And I'm not just talking about Video - First Thats 1080p Vs. 480i or 480p with progressive scan - BUT ANOTHER HUGE DIFFERENCE are the new AUDIO Formats - Dolby True HD & DTS Master Audio - These offer uncompressed Audio and are absolutely Fantastic - They Blow DVD Audio Out of the Water - No Question about it... You will However need a receiver or pre/pro that can decode it if you bitstream via HDMI or get a BD player with on board decoding of the new formats and run analog to your existing system 5.1 or 7.1 inputs -If you have not heard these formats - YOU SHOULD !!

Agreed on the new audio formats. I think the difference will be obvious on even a modest home theatre.

I have Oppo bluray player - my third Oppo - and think the video is spectacular. I've always loved their upsampling on standard DVD and bluray is great bonus.

Sound is superb via HDMI to my Marantz AV receiver. (I've not tried the analog outs and don't plan to.) The sound quality of the new bluray format illustrates something to me that I tend to forget: a LOT of the money, perhaps most of the money we spend on high end audio gear is really just making up for the mediocre quality of the media and sound engineering. I think you get high end sound out of a modest home theatre when you play the bluray sound formats.

1080I or P is approximately 6 times the amount of data od standard NTSC. VHS could resolve about 240 lines of resolution (in the same 525 scan lines that DVD has, but DVD can resolve about 500 lines of resolution on the same horizontal scan line). So it would seem that numerically, Bluray is a bigger jump from DVD than VHS was to DVD.

I did watch some blurays on a 42" 1080P set, and thought too that the difference was not so great, but then getting the player home on my close to 14 foot screen, there is simply no comparison. Now that I have the BDP-83 I was excited to see the DVD upscaling, and while good, is no way anywhere near the quality of bluray.

moderate sized LCD's simply don't reveal the HD signal in all it's glory.

I am not yet listening to the uncompressed HD audio tracks, but even Dolby digital on bluray uses higher bitrates, ans the audio improvement is evident on 2 different players I have used.

As far as higher resolution than HD, Red ray is a 4K distribution format on disk that will be meant for digital cinemas, not the home consumer.

I resurrected this thread to say:

HA, I told you so!!!

Very good. So, what's the best advice today? Newest Oppo or ?
What level DAC... Alpla? Best Formats for hi-res music?
Best interconnect for the near future? Tech advances in the pipeline?

Macdadtexas, what exactly did you tell us?

Read this link for an update on the format wars:

http://hometheater.about.com/b/2013/08/06/blu-ray-disc-sales-up-15-percent-for-the-first-half-of-2013.htm

Basically, it says Bluray player and disk sales are up and disk rentals are down. On-demand and streaming are both up, but still a small part of the total market. So more people than before are buying Blurays and players, less people than before are renting Blurays and DVDs, and while more people than before are downloading or streaming content, more people overall still get their kicks from disks.

On a personal note, since this thread was started in 2009 I bought a new Bluray player, a mainstream Panasonic BDP that I basically use as a disk transport and Internet media server for my AVR and TV. My two grown kids don't even have a cable TV account, but both stream Netflix and Hulu off the Internet and both rent disks from RedBox. My 20 something son actually owns a Bluray player too, while my daughter uses her laptop to watch disks.

Knownothing, I just saw your response. So your kids are the one's who still used discs?

The percentage of discs bought, or rented, compared to download is minuscule.

Blu-ray is not even the only disc, they still, somehow make DVD's. Neither of which are important.

BluRay was the LaserDisc of formats, a non-important pause. Cloud storage has even made home downloads unnecessary, digital downloads are THE only format that matters at all.

Once again, I told you so.

You said streaming is the future. I never really disagreed with this, I tried to support your point above by saying that my kids generally get their entertainment from streaming/downloads/cloud supplemented with disks. My son is a budding audiophile, has no dedicated two channel disk spinner in his system, and only uses disks in his car, mostly his girlfriends old CDs. He does however recognize a difference between the audio quality of a well engineered soundtrack on BluRay compared with what is available to stream.

My original point was that BluRay was/still is a valid bridge to the day when equal quality streaming is routinely available, and that in some cases, owning a physical copy may make sense indefinitely.

You said BluRay is dead, I said it is dying. I pointed out again above that while the currently available statistics tend to support my point, my children's behavior supports your thesis:-)

PS - since the original post, I upgraded my HT system and find it is used about 60% for music, 20% for movies and 20% for TV programming. I still prefer the sound and picture quality I get from BluRay over streamed content. My system in my office is entirely computer based. While the sound quality is good, I find it a clunky interface and have so far rejected the time necessary to set up similar in either of my home systems beyond connecting to my iPhone for non serious background listening, FWIW.

kn

What did you tell us? The difference between DVD and VHS is about the same as the difference between Blu Ray and DVD. Either is a transformative leap. I would never take streaming over Blu Ray on anything I cared about.