@stuartk :
"Perhaps Classical and Jazz live music venues-- places where music lovers typically congregate?"
That's an excellent idea! I would add all music genres to that! Perhaps some advertising & marketing before & after a performance might entice fans to have a listen. |
@oldaudiophile:
Yes-- I'm quite pleased with the results. I have no plans to ever upgrade any of my components except possibly the speakers-- but that will be simply to move to the current model.
I agree that it would be wonderful to have places where music lovers could experience at first hand the benefits of better quality audio-- especially more affordably-priced systems. Perhaps Classical and Jazz live music venues-- places where music lovers typically congregate?
No doubt, people much more astute than I have pondered this. . .
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@stuartk :
No need for apologies! I'm enjoying this insight into how different audiophiles go about their shopping and selection process or processes, as the case may be. Seems like you are going about this in a very cautious, well-informed and well-reasoned fashion which, I'm confident, many other folks who have come to eschew the conventional brick & motor thing probably do, as well. As long as you are pleased with the results, that's really all that matters. More power to you all! I, as I suspect a majority of audiophiles and budding audiophiles, simply do not have the same level of confidence in my audiophile knowledge base or expertise, such as it is, to be courageous enough to forsake the more conventional brick & mortar thing. The folks who do this successfully are obviously much more knowledgeable and adept than I am and, again, I believe most audiophiles fall into this category.
It's unfortunate that some folks who might prefer or really benefit from brick & mortar shopping are precluded from doing so because there are simply no or not enough reputable or good quality audio shops within reasonable proximity to them. Shows or audio expositions would certainly be helpful, as an alternative. I suppose developing good relationships with reputable on-line sellers would be helpful, as well. However, for music lovers struggling with this lack of relatively readily accessible variety of audio shops, music lovers who possibly are not fortunate enough to have quality multi-thousand dollar relatively high-end systems, who maybe have never even heard systems like that before, I think it would be wonderful if there were more venues available to them to explore this and on-going upgrade possibilities. Maybe a bunch of travelling mini audio expositions in the more rural areas of the country would be helpful? I think anything that can be done to support and help this hobby and passion thrive would be a good thing. |
@oldaudiophile:
"I like to think I've acquired enough audiophile smarts over the years to be able to factor in variables like different sound rooms, different acoustics, source equipment, etc. I always make a point of controlling for as many of those variables as possible when I make appointments, to the point of specifically requesting which components I want the shops to use if they don't have something exactly like what I have. I even ask them, for example, specifically how I want speakers set up in the sound room. In short, I try to replicate or, rather, approximate as closely as possible, the conditions I have to contend with at home. In this last experience, the speakers I bought actually sound better under my roof than they did in the showroom".
Sorry for implying you might need assistance-- clearly, you know very well what you're doing !
I do a lot of research as well, largely due to the fact that my budget for audio is relatively modest, which means I often look at products from smaller, lesser-know manufacturers, as they may offer more for one's dollar. For example, I first read about Wells amps in a thread about Salk speakers and came across mention of Aqua DACS in a similarly oblique fashion. Jeff Wells shipped me a demo Majestic and Alma Music in San Diego sent me a demo Aqua La Voce. When research led to the conclusion that a SimAudio 280 transport was probably the best choice for my budget, I contacted the closest dealer, who refused to send me one. However, I was able to get one from a shop in Denver. In all three cases seller's flexibility in this regard led to my buying new units.
I have monitors, so I'm never going to be wrestling with 100 lb cabinets but I can certainly sympathize with the dilemma that demoing such units at home might pose. I lack your self-confidence, however, so I'd still insist upon a home demo, rather than listening in a showroom.
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Stuartk, I understand completely and couldn't agree more! All the shops I've ever purchased any major component from have always had either a 30 day or 60 day full refund return policy and most never had a re-stocking fee for returns. So, I've always felt comfortable doing my due diligence on the reading, research and preparation end and, then, some serious seat-time in auditions before laying down serious or even semi-serious simoleans for a purchase. So far, I've never been disappointed with what I brought home.
I tend to be very compulsive with my reading & research. My friends love to bust my chops about that and just can't understand why sometimes my reading & research will go on for the better part of a year, if not more, before I pull the trigger on something I want. They give me the same grief about my seat-time or shopping habits. Prior to upgrading my speakers a few years ago, I logged somewhere around 19 to 20 hours of serious critical listening time with around 18 different pairs of speakers and, yes, of course, that was in 5 different high-end shops in 2 different states. I like to think I've acquired enough audiophile smarts over the years to be able to factor in variables like different sound rooms, different acoustics, source equipment, etc. I always make a point of controlling for as many of those variables as possible when I make appointments, to the point of specifically requesting which components I want the shops to use if they don't have something exactly like what I have. I even ask them, for example, specifically how I want speakers set up in the sound room. In short, I try to replicate or, rather, approximate as closely as possible, the conditions I have to contend with at home. In this last experience, the speakers I bought actually sound better under my roof than they did in the showroom. I'm blessed with a living room that has good acoustics. I just can't imagine doing anything even close to this by buying a bunch of stuff on-line. I don't trust whatever audiophile skills I think I've acquired to make that kind of educated guess, especially when it comes to speakers. I think I'd be more comfortable doing something like that for an amp or a turntable, if I had to, but I would try to avoid that if I possibly could. However, as you've said, that's just the way I roll. |
It all sounds like a great idea to me but the only problem is all of the unfamiliar rooms, components, speakers, and music involved in such situations. the good thing is that you could compare different components on the same system, but if there is component interaction that is not good you will hear bad sound. A lot of the time a system has to be made to sing and switching out one piece will destroy the magic, it all comes down to assembly and balance to truly achieve a great system, and when you do you will know it.
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@oldaudiophile - I have auditioned by way of purchase multiple large amplifiers (like Lamm M1.2 monos and Clayton M300 monos - each about 100 lbs per amp), many preamps, and also digital front end gear. There is certainly a cost and risk in shipping them but also a savings in purchasing used. With speakers, I had a better handle on what I wanted so I have not needed to cycle through multiple heavy speakers. Your other best options are to listen at audio shows or go on the road to various dealers since it would be rare to find a single dealer who represents a large selection of speaker manufacturers. |
@oldaudiophile:
The more expensive the gear, the less likely I'd be to base a purchase on an in-store demo, with no chance of return. I would never lay down $2500, let alone $10,000 on any component that I could not first hear in my system, in my room. But that's me-- I'm neither sufficiently wealthy nor sufficiently enamored of risk to embark upon such an "adventure".
On the other hand, millercarbon appears to have developed strategies that enable him to make repeated successful gear purchases without demos of any kind. Perhaps he'd be willing to share this info with you.
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So, all you folks who believe the time of brick & motor shops have come & gone, please help me understand this.
By way of example, lets say you were in the market for a new pair of speakers and had narrowed your contenders down to... say... 3 or 4 or maybe even more different pairs you thought would sound really great with your system, room acoustics, etc. And lets say each one of those speakers weighed around 100 lbs. or more and each pair had a price tag of around $10,000.00 or so. Are you saying you would systematically buy/order each pair of those speakers from an on-line seller(s), have them delivered to your home, audition them there during the return policy period and send them back until you arrived at your final choice? And, if that final choice happened not to be the last pair you ordered & auditioned at home, would you then re-order the ones you wanted and have those re-shipped back to your home? I suppose, if money isn’t an issue, one could order/purchase everything in one fell swoop, have it all shipped to your home simultaneously, audition everything at the same time and then ship back only the speakers you didn’t want.
Speakers are probably not the best hypothetical example, here, since most of them need a good amount of break-in time to sound their best. Maybe amps, pre-amps, etc. would be a better example but most electronic stuff like that needs some burn-in time, as well. I suppose if one had good relations with on-line sellers that could deliver demo equipment that was already burned-in or broken-in, this could speed up or make the in-home auditioning process easier. Is this what you folks do or do you do some reading & research and order things you’re reasonably assured will work well at home? I can see how this approach might be feasible for things like cables, interconnects, maybe a DAC, etc. But, for major components like speakers, amps, pre-amps? Really? |
I fail to see the value in brick-and-mortar audio stores in today's world.
Auditioning a component is a misnomer. Does anybody really believe they can hear what an amplifier sounds like and filter out the effects of the source, the cables, the speakers, the mains conditioning, the acoustics particular to the room, etc. etc? I have a bridge to sell you if you do.
Online purchasing and shipping have improved dramatically. Online payments are secure. Delivery timelines have improved.
Other than seeing the component in the flesh, which admittedly is pretty cool, there is no value in going to physical store.
Like so many other things, the time of audio brick-and-mortar stores have come and gone. |
MillerC, your post just reminded me of a line from "The Producers" (1967) where Zero Mostel yells: "If you've got it, baby, flaunt it!". Not sure I'd go that far but, nonetheless, enjoy!
Edcyn, thanks for the tip on the Cognac. I'll have to try it. I'll probably know, right off the bat, from one sniff, whether or not I'll like it. Got really sick... 3.5 day I wanna die hang-over kinda sick... following a slam bang celebration one night when I was living in France, many years ago. WAY too much celebrating! As Jimmy Buffett would say: "I pushed the fool button" that night. The culprits were Hennessey, Champagne, vin mousseux, red and white wine. The locals told me, later, one should never mix red & white wine when celebrating with a vengeance. Too little, too late! Anyway, it took me almost 3 decades after that before I could even stand the smell of Cognac. Remy VSOP was the first one to crack that barrier. |
@oldaudiophile -- If you like Cognac, give the Delamain brand a try. Even their cheapest offering (which ain't so cheap) is a glimpse of heaven in a glass. |
The lava lamp started out as a lava lamp. But look close you can tell it is now a magma lamp. Either way, seismic, like the sink, that became the Townshend Pods. Look closer, the magma lamp is on a pedestal, precursor to the Podium.
Cable elevators relate to the elevated level of the owner. The fine wine collection is surpassed only by the spirits, featuring a superb selection of the finest genuine Russian vodkas.
A common theme running through it all is a complete lack of concern for the approval of the crowd. The same "I don’t care what the snobs think" that allows me to buy Tekton also favors Grand Seiko Spring Drive over Rol cough ex. Cough.
So yeah, a case can probably be made for stuff like this reflecting the personality of the owner. Vast majority posting system pics have put a lot more effort into how it looks. I put a lot more effort into how it sounds. Too much red? Don’t care!
This carries through to the sound. Way more full and liquid than anything I ever heard anywhere. Anyone reading that would be forgiven for assuming it can’t be that detailed. Yet one of the more recent listeners, incredulous, said, "How much more detail can you get?!?!" Massive insane detail. Smooth as silk.
But yet when called for, cuts like a knife. Just like me.
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jrw1971, off-topic notwithstanding, I love that kind of thinking! Don't know how diagnostic this is but I love MAC amps and don't care much for CABs. I lean more toward Merlot, Cotes du Rhone, Chateaux Neuf du Pape, Bourdeaux (from Gironde), Pinot Grigio, Sauvignon Blanc, Tavel, Bass Ale, Harpoon Ale (definitely ale over beer), Cognac (Remy Martin only), fine single malt Scotch, etc. MAC lover? I love lava lamps! Child of the 60s who grooves on 60s music? Maybe. Wouldn't it be hoot if the Stenheim crowd are Bud Light drinkers? LOL! Audiophile psychologists should really study this!
Your post reminded me of a recent speaker upgrade 2 or 3 years ago. I sought some guidance by posting some very specific information about my sound room, equipment and a few other particulars on Stereophile. Music preferences weren't very helpful because I just love too wide a variety of stuff! I was floored when Kal Rubinson chimed in with a little guidance. To make a long story short, Kal and another professional I respect and had a separate back & forth with during this time, Doug Schneider, pretty much predicted what my ears would eventually choose. Guess that's why these guys are professionals. Kind of like audiophile fortune-telling. After several months of serious seat-time with somewhere around 18 different pairs of speakers, I brought home a pair of Revel. Despite my respect for Kal and Doug, I can assure you their guidance was nothing short of professional and objective and my ears definitely made the decision without any subconscious influence because of my respect for their expertise. In fact, there was, actually, a pair of speakers I liked more but my amp just didn't/doesn't have the juice for them (i.e. Aerial Acoustics). The person who traded those in went home with a pair of Steinheim Alumine Three. Get the picture? I've never heard the Steinheim but I can assure you the Aerial Acoustics are amazing! Of course, as we all know, this is just an opinion. |
This is off-topic, with apologies. Miller's lava lamp has reminded me of a recurring, non-serious thought: Do you think you could determine what kind of sound a person might like based on other preferences? Like, if you enjoy a red lava lamp, you'll like X. If you like a blue lava lamp, you'll like Y. It's more fun with wines, though. Can't you picture that guy who loves big, expensive, high alcohol content fruit bomb CA cabs also liking Mac tube gear? The Pinot guy might like ARC+Maggies. The Champagne crowd digs CH Precision and Soulution paired with Stenheim, with a Goldfinger cart. And the dude who loves Port also loves CJ+JBL+Koetsu, but only their vintage stuff.
That's the kind of dealer event I'd attend, with each room pairing audio gear and a certain booze. |
@jehab:"Forgive me for speaking for edcyn, but I think he was serious, though meant it in a different tone than you perceived due to his word choice. Try substituting "eager and aspiring" for "itchy-fingered wannabe" to read it another way. I dare to comment thusly because I consider myself such an audiophile, having never set foot in a high-end retailer."
I'm not convinced you're accurate in your genereous interpretation of edcyn's post, but I do appreciate your motive. There is, unfortunately an undeniable element of elitism/snobbishness in this hobby that I dislike intensely. No doubt my growing intolerance for it has a tendency to color my reaction to certain posts, here.
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Times have changed and if you are not in an area where you can easily access audio shops to audition equipment, then your options may include: -
Attending audio shows,
- In-home auditions from direct-purchase manufacturers,
- Joining an audio club where members host meetings and compare gear, and where manufacturers are invited to display their gear, and/or
- Purchasing gear on-line and reselling items you do not want to keep.
This hobby will be kept alive and well by manufacturers and listeners who are passionate about listening to music on an accurate sound reproduction system. Anybody who is in it solely for the money would be better served spending their time elsewhere. |
Good eye. Classic red lava lamp. Perfect amount of light, endlessly interesting patterns. Takes about the same amount of time to warm up as the system. ;)
stuartk- you seem to think I was addressing my remarks to you. Thanks, always enjoy a good sense of humor!
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Interesting points of view, all! Truly appreciate hearing or, rather, reading how other folks approach this!
I completely understand how one can never really know what a major component will sound like under one's roof until you actually get it there. However, for major pieces like speakers and amps I still find it instructive, after all the reading & research has been done, to go out and audition the prime suspects, regardless of all the variables one cannot control for after communications with the shops involved (e.g. different sound rooms: source components used; etc.). I don't think I could ever feel comfortable spending a lot of cash on components like that, sight unseen, sound unheard. Plus, I find the auditioning and shopping fun! I'd like to think I've acquired enough audiophile smarts, over the years, to make some relatively good educated guesses as to how things are going to perform at my place, versus any given shop's sound room; especially after a good amount of serious seat-time with contenders. So far, anyway, I've never felt the slightest inkling to return a major purchase within a return policy period. I'm sure there very well might have been something, along the way, that might have performed a little better at home than what I ultimately chose via on-site auditions. However, I'm one of those folks who does not relish the prospect of re-packing, re-boxing and toting stuff, especially heavy stuff, to wherever for shipment back to on-line sellers in order to audition things at home. I guess I'm just lazy that way. I'm comfortable purchasing things like cables, interconnects and stuff like that on-line. I even bought my present turntable on-line but only because I couldn't find a shop near enough to avoid booking a flight to the nearest dealer. I was tempted to do the same for a CD player I bought many years ago. However, I'm glad I did some auditioning because the two I had narrowed the choice down to sounded very different under relatively well controlled auditions.
I suppose if I ever hit a lottery big enough to join the 3% I could task the servants or hire folks to do all the tedious stuff I abhor related to auditioning a bunch of stuff at home. That would be fun! Unfortunately, I don't play the lottery and I don't have any rich old uncles or aunts who love me and have possibly included me in their last will and testaments. So, I guess I'll keep on auditioning.
Millercarbon, I checked out your system. Truly impressive! Was that a lava lamp I saw? |
@stuartk Forgive me for speaking for edcyn, but I think he was serious, though meant it in a different tone than you perceived due to his word choice. Try substituting "eager and aspiring" for "itchy-fingered wannabe" to read it another way. I dare to comment thusly because I consider myself such an audiophile, having never set foot in a high-end retailer.
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@edcyn:
"...the rise of mail order and the web have democratized the landscape and have made it so any itchy-fingered wannabe audiophile can enter the game".
Just wondering... is this meant to be a joke or are you serious?
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I truly enjoyed haunting audio stores when I lived in a large metropolitan area. And if I was truly impressed with what I heard and I had the lucre, I'd bring the stuff home, too, for at least an overnight. The same went (even more so) when it came to musical instruments. The thing is, high-end retailers have always been a rare breed. And I got to say it, the rise of mail order and the web have democratized the landscape and have made it so any itchy-fingered wannabe audiophile can enter the game. |
oldaudiophile, this is what audio shows are for now. Even in the old days the speakers I like would rarely if ever be on display. After 50 years of doing this I know what I want in terms of speakers and electronics. The only risk taking is with cartridges which are inexpensive enough so that if I make a mistake it is not too painful. Speakers are the hard part where auditioning is important if you have not learned what you like and why. I now have Sound Labs speakers which I chose purely on the analysis of the design. I never heard them before I set up mine. But, I have been a diehard ESL person for decades. I got exactly what I was expecting and looking for.
Even if a store is not in your neighborhood you can still have an excellent relationship with it. I have two shops on opposite ends of the country I deal with on a first name basis and both take care of me when I order equipment.
Another interesting point is that from a tonal perspective you can make a speaker sound any way you want with Digital Signal Processing. You might even be able to make them image. Some will never image by design. |
@millercarbon:
First of all, I don't buy from big box sellers.
More to the point, I'm not an engineer by profession, sensibility or inclination-- I'm an artistic sort who has little interest in why/how a given component works. What I do care about is how it sounds. . . to me. . . in my system. . . in my room. The most reliable strategy I've found for such research is to hear it at home. If demoing gear in this manner disqualifies me from membership in the elite echelons of audiophilia, I really don't care.
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I’m not paying showroom prices. I’m way past other peoples speakers.
I like what I like.
I have what I like and have made.. I’m pretty lucky..
I sure couldn’t afford to buy what I use to make for someone else.
The commercial speaker I liked went out of business, VMPS
I use to buy his cabinet and modify the front baffle. (FF3, I think) Over 250 pounds for bass columns and about 200 for the Monitors with Strathearns and BGs for the highs or EMIT drivers
Maybe one more final set of Strathearns after "The Elixir" project is finished..
I like going to CES or shows.. But showrooms.. No thanks.. Last one was Texas for me because of the SNOB in CA. I flew to Texas and spent 30k cash 25-30 years ago. No speakers involved. Different story.. Mac dealers.. Fine folks in Texas.. Not so fine (at the time) in CA..
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The sad fact of the matter, a glass half empty kind of guy will always see the world as half empty. The CW was and still is that auditions are essential, and preferably in-home auditions. Back in the 90’s this made a lot of sense. Or so it seemed. In reality we soon discovered even all the stores up and down the I5 corridor from Portland to north of Seattle, none of them could touch the one dealer who helped me the most. Or maybe better to say all of them together had nowhere near as much worth buying as this one. Who worked out of his home. By appointment only. All the big box stores have one very big in fact insurmountable problem in that they must generate massive profits in order to cover their massive overhead. This is why they are driven to one of two extremes: either they are Best Buy moving volume, or Definitive selling Wilson and other famous dreck to their unsuspecting but loaded customers. If you want to keep audio alive and flourishing oldaudiophile, which you should and I applaud, then you should focus your efforts where they will do some good. The big box stores are never gonna be the place. They will for the reasons above never be the place. Ignore them. Treat them the way they treat me when I go in there: ignore. Put all your time and energy into supporting the quality manufacturers selling direct. Tekton, Decware, Raven, Herron, and others here in the USA, but also Townshend, Origin Live, Audio Hungary and the like overseas. Doing this is a two-fer. Direct sales eliminates huge dealer markups, puts you directly in touch with the maker who has a direct stake in your satisfaction, and more directly supports those who are really doing the work that advances the hobby. Oops- make that a three-fer! Forget your audition requirement. I haven’t auditioned a single thing in more than a dozen years, and I have done just fine. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 This system is to die for. Not one thing there was heard in any store. Not one thing there is even carried in any store, not within a days drive anyway. Yet it is all fantastic stuff. Not a single disappointment. In a dozen years. If I can do it, anyone can. So learn to read reviews. Search the interwebs for user comments. DYODD. Support direct sales. And when you find your gem, share your impressions. Write your own reviews. That’s how you will help keep audiophilia and the love of music alive and well. |
I guess I'm in the minority but I refuse to buy expensive gear based solely upon a showroom demo as part of a system that is different from my own, in a room that is different from my room, with no return policy.
And I don't lament the demise of shops employing this business model.
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I quit using audio stores years ago, seemed less useful as I became more knowledgeable. Brands I'm interested in not available, I'm into SET and high efficiency speakers, not too many dealers into this. Easy availability of buying and selling used equipment meant doing auditions need not cost a lot. Finally, I'm a diy kind of guy, know what I want. Too many dealer salespeople assumed I was novice even after conversing in knowledgeable manner.
Having said that, there was one local dealer back in the day who took in lots of used equipment, let me compare and contrast in store on my own, no bother from him. Also let me take equipment home for audition with small deposit. Arnie was that one in a thousand dealer!
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