Hello, I am new to this forum but I have a question. I am trying to pair an amp + DAC with my Wilson Sabrinas. I have listened to Jeff Rowlands integrated with the Aeris DAC. And the VAC Sigma integrated with the Aeris DAC. Price is a factor and so is space. Does the 625 need a pre-amp? Any suggestions or thoughts?
Hello Ricred 1, I don't have another amp at home. I bought the JR 625 and I love that everyone on this discussion has been so supportive and helpful. I am very happy.
My Wilson dealer just got the Coda in. I have a friend who is looking for a used amp. So, sorry if this was confusing. It isn't for me -- I have already made my decision. Now I am on to cables!!! And next year or if I win a lottery (LOL) I will add a pre-amp to complete the system and have many hours of happy listening.
Rinpoche, If you had the JR 625 S2 at home and are still considering other amps, I just don't understand? No, it's not my money, everyone hears differently, and has different priorities. If the JR 625 S2 is played within it limits, there aren't too many amps that will better it. Yes, there are amps that sound different, but after listening to many, many amps I don't understand what you're looking for?
However I see that the link at their site for the specs on the 15.5, while going to specs that are stated to be for the 15.0, indicates an input impedance of 50K unbalanced/1K balanced. And the link for the manual for the 15.5, while going to a manual that is stated to be for the 15.0, indicates an input impedance of 50K unbalanced/10K balanced.
Presumably it is best to use the balanced outputs of the Aeris. The Aeris may or may not be able to drive an impedance as low as 1K with optimal results, but more often than not a preamp (if you were to eventually purchase one) would not be able to. And many preamp designs, especially those that are tube-based, would not be able to handle 10K with optimal results, either.
Yeah, excellent move. Rushing to spend $1000 or more for a cable that might not be the best choice would make little sense. I would be happy to hear that Mogami balanced works great, but more likely something more expensive will be required. The biggest difference between DiMarzio and Purist was in the midrange, though both the bass and tremble were better too. Still, that DiMarzio was very clear balanced and dynamic. And the difference was bigger with digital. If Mogami is similar to DiMarzio it should also be something like that, that's good but not good enough.
rinpoche, if you need 1 meter length and want to buy yourself time to look around and decide upon what you really want without having to rush into a purchase I have an extra pair of unused balanced Silnote Audio Morpheous ICs that you can have and be yours to keep at no cost to you. If you're interested in my offer send me a message as I'd be happy to help you out; if not no problem.
Okay, so my dealer just emailed to say that I have to return the loaner to the shop. Now I need to really decide. I will figure something out. Does anyone know anything about Siltech 770i (Or some such number)? There is a used pair for sale. And/or I can get the same Crystal Cable at a not too too bad price for sale. Or, buy something -- dare I say it, new?
Yeah, why not try Mogami too, it costs nothing? However, pro-audio and audiophile audio are not the same things. One of the differences is that they would try to save every cent to increase the profit, we would not. I tried DiMarzio cables, something very popular with musicians as guitar amp cable. Yngwie Malmsteen comes to mind. Good cable, no match for Purist. I did try RCA though.
Thanks, Mapman. On June 11 and June 12 I had posted the following in this thread:
Regarding interconnects, if I recall correctly all of the equipment possibilities that have been mentioned would be suitable for use with balanced XLR interconnects. While opinions about cable selection tend to be all over the map, as you may have seen in any number of other cable-related threads, FWIW my suggestion is that initially, at least, you simply purchase some inexpensive Mogami Gold Studio balanced cables. And who knows, despite their modest price you may find them to be suitable for use permanently.
Those cables, by the way, are the de facto interconnect of choice in professional recording studios worldwide....
... Regarding the interconnects that would be used at the output of the Aeris DAC, I note the following statement in the Aeris’ description:
Transformer balanced XLR line outputs provide outstanding output common-mode noise rejection, eliminate potential ground loops, and ensure compatibility with other equipment.
I also note that it has a 120 ohm output impedance, which although not especially low is considerably lower than in many other designs.
I suspect that those factors will result in that DAC having somewhat less sensitivity to cable differences (at its balanced analog outputs) than would be the case in many other circumstances. Especially if the length that is necessary is only 1 meter, as most analog cable effects are proportional to length.
Regarding the comments about low capacitance in my posts earlier today, the capacitance per unit length of Mogami Gold Studio is somewhat higher than in the case of most of the cables Guido suggested, but the short length that is required should make that difference inconsequential.
If its a standard balanced IC that is needed in particular, where sound differences among wires should be minimal if any, I would forego all the high end audio brands and look at pro audio vendors for a good quality wire for reasonable cost and call it a day. I bet Almarg knows some good candidates there.
I have not heard the newest Purist cables, only older ones. If you pushed me to take my somewhat educated wild guess, I would say that without spending too much the current Aqueous Luminist edition for a little over $1000 should be about right. If this is too expensive - probably Poseidon. Nothing lower than that, that's for sure.
Rinpoche, if you consider Purist I strongly suggest you talk to member albertporter and also perhaps to Jim Aud, Purist designer. Albert has a wealth of knoweldge of high end audio. He is currently also Purist Audio and High Fidelity cables dealer. This should not affect his objectivity much. He might be able to send you some demo cables to try and would give you a very good price on new cables. There is a reason why there are many Purist models. You would be unable to figure out by yourself which one would be best for you unless you try them all. If Albert cannot answer your questions he will contact those who can.
For whatever it's worth , since brands are being tossed about I'll recommend a non-mainstream brand to possiblly consider - Silnote Audio (can check Agon listings for some); haven't found them to be equipment brand partial with any equipment in either of my 3 systems.
P.S. to my post above: Even if pins 2 and 3 were interchanged relative to the usual convention in the Aeris and the 625 S2, it wouldn't matter as the two reversals would result in the correct overall polarity. And that would continue to be true even if a preamp were inserted between them, assuming the preamp's polarity convention is the same at its output as at its input.
These are all very good suggestions. I will ask around and keep my eyes open. I do hear good things about the Shunyata Zitron line up. And will also consider Purist. However, there seems to be quite a range of cables in their line? R
From an experiential point of view, I found Nordost Valhalla II, Shunyata Z-tron and CX, Cardas Clear Beyond, as well as Furutech Evo II and bulk wires to be "goldielockian"... That is, the wires are extended, musical, have significant harmonic exposure, but do not give preferential treatment to any particular section of the audible frequency band. Furthermore, they are all wires that do not easily intermodulate high friquencies... This means that they are not clinical but are immersive instead, and do not easily create yield a jarrying sound in complex treble parts.
Inna, according to rear panel photos I've seen of the Aeris and the 625 S2 , those models conform to the XLR convention that is standard in the USA, Canada, and many other countries of pin 2 non-inverted and pin 3 inverted (with pin 1 being ground). You are remembering correctly that some of the older JRDG designs did the converse.
Exactly. That's what you want to add to the sound of your system. I will make last statement regarding cables. Take it with some scepticism. We, Purist Audio fans, are not idiots and generally have good hearing. Whatever else in our systems we change, one thing almost always remains the same - we keep using Purist Audio cables, though sometimes change the model. Tube equipment, solid state equipment, hybrid equipment - no difference. Digital source, analog source - no difference.
Does Jeff Rowland now use standard XLR pin configuration? I think, I read that in the past that was not the case. Unless I read wrong. Someone here uses Wireworld cables with Rowlands. There is inexpensive Eclipse balanced cable for sale. This should give the impression of the brand. If you don't like it - throw it away if you don't want to deal with selling. In high end audio one should prepare for some losses, they happen.
Come on, guys, I suspect some of you have a bunch of spare cables in the closet. Why don't you send them to the lady for audition? I don't have balanced cables. If you add tube pre-amp later, the interconnects you get now may not work well, besides you will need another set. Furutech was not a bad idea but may not be good enough for you, perhaps worth a try, I don't know. Personally, I don't touch Cardas, Nordost and Audioquest. Their very expensive models could be good in some systems, though. If the cable manufacturer is serious, even the least expensive cable should be okay in any system. Wire is not just a wire, but first of all it is a wire.
Hello, I don't really have interconnects yet between the Aeris DAC and JR amp. I totally agree that when the amp comes (next year?), I will consider seriously adding tubes or at least hearing the system with tubes. As of today, however, I need an XLR interconnect from the DAC to the amp. I only have this older Transparent as a loaner or I have to purchase it. I think I can do better. But what is the question?
There are some used Audioquest Wel and Blue Yonder on line as well as Nordost Valhalla (not sure which ones, maybe II?). Right now my dealer was kind enough to lend me Transparent until she finds something used that would be right. I got the demo amp so it has some hours logged on it already. And I am doing my best to listen as much as possible. Thanks for the informed advice. R
A few thoughts. If the system sounds good enough now, there is no need to change anything, certainly not untill the question of adding preamp or upgrading speakers is answered. At this level I would not mix brands of interconnects and speaker cables unless I wanted to experiment with hundreds of brands. The fact that Rowland is wired with Cardas and Wilson with Transparent means exactly nothing from audiophile perspective. This is a digital source transistor based system, I would think that it needed some 'tubes' in the chain, that's neutral enough but full bodied cables that would bring out colour and texture, as opposed to coloration and additional digital artifacts. Are we talking about XLR balanced or RCA cables, by the way? If balanced, it's easier and less expensive.
Wires are often a potshot even for the best informed.
My advice is buy in a manner that enables you to experiment without taking a loss each time you might want to change. There are some vendors who offer generous return and exchange programs I hear.
Myself, I tend to always buy wires used and not overpay so I can then resell and try others as needed.
My other suggestion is do not assume cost indicates performance or best sound with wires. There may be some correlation but certainly no guarantee. I'd find something less expensive and suitable first and then experiment with others from there if needed but avoid the trap of paying a lot for new wires and then taking a financial beating if you decide they are not for you.
Excellent inputs from Guido, as usual. Some additional comments:
Many Nordost and Cardas wires are often thought of as having intrinsic sonic characters that are in opposite parts of the spectrum, with some audiophiles being of the opinion that Cardas tends in the direction of excessive warmth, and some audiophiles being of the opinion that Nordost tends in the direction of a colder and more clinical sound. Of course, different models within each product line will differ in those and other respects, as Guido noted in the case of the Valhalla and Valhalla II.
My main point in responding, though, is to point out that with the exception of the Cardas Clear and Clear Beyond speaker cables, what the Cardas, Nordost, and Furutech cables Guido mentioned all have in common (including the Cardas Clear interconnect) is very low capacitance (between 8 and 20 pf per foot in all cases). Which would seem to say that if other cables are considered, preference should be given to those having similarly low capacitance.
Unfortunately, though, many and probably most manufacturers do not provide capacitance specs for their cables on their websites (Cardas, Nordost, and Furutech happening to be among a small number of notable exceptions). But in those other cases perhaps an email to the manufacturer would unearth that information.
On the other hand, in the case of the Cardas Clear and Clear Beyond speaker cables (but not the Clear interconnect), capacitance is very high (278 and 446 pf/foot respectively). Presumably that is a consequence of those cables having been designed to provide extremely low inductance. The impedance of the Sabrina speaker rises to relatively high values (around 10 ohms or so) in the upper treble region, which is where inductance primarily matters, and that kind of impedance characteristic makes having low cable inductance relatively unimportant. So my instinct would be to avoid those particular speaker cables in this case.
BTW, here is a link to a very nicely written review of the Furutech cables which Guido did a while back:
Hi Rinpoche, here are some pointers about wire products with Rowland gear.
Jeff Rowland in his factory's demo system uses almost exclusively Cardas Clear and Clear Beyond, as well as Nordost Odin II. Internally, all Rowland products are wired with Cardas wires. I have heard Jeff's system connected with Cardas wires and it was amazing.
Nordost wires are incredibly expensive, thus unless you have an uber-generous budget, you will likely not consider them.
In my own system, with a variety of Rowland components, over the last 18 years, I have had best results with:
Nordost Valhalla II -- Not the original Valhalla, which sounds thin, but the 2nd iteration, which is still marvellously extended, but is also harmonically rich throughout the audible range. But once again, the problem with Valhalla II is the same as with Odin... The cost of ownership is very high.
* A variety of Shunyata wires... Helix, CX, and the original Zitron Anaconda. Absolutely phenomenal wires... I have not heard the very latest iteration, but have been told that the newest middle-priced Z-tron Cobra might exceed the performance of all previous Anacondas.
If you were seeking wires that are even more moderately priced, I have found the Furutech Evo II to be exceptional price performers, and some of the Furutech bulk wires to be even a little better than EVO II. Furutech wires can be ordered and custom-terminated by Elite Audio. You can contact Scott Markwell at Elite...
Having said all of the above, until your M625 stabilizes, any audition of wires will yield unreliable results... They will emphasize or overcompensate any temporary performance anomalies of M625 S2. Only after equipment is stable, auditioning wires is a useful exercise.
I believe that the situation when power amp outclasses speakers is better than the other way around. It is probably not easy for any speakers to outclass Lamm and Gryphon, so those amps could be for life. For this life, I mean. Unlike listening rooms, philosophycal space is unlimited, as far as eye can see. Or as far as ear can hear.
This was the second time I've tried Transparent Audio. When I had Wilson Audio Sashas I tried Transparent cables. "In my system" they didn't sound natural and I purchased a cable by Silver Audio. Some say Wilson's are great with Transparent and feel they're a natural match because Wilson's are wired internally with Transparent cables. Still many others prefer other cables and that's why you need to audition them!
Yes, Transparent Audio Ultra, Shunyata Cobra, and Cardas Clear. Audioquest Wel Signature cables are way more money than I'm willing to spend on cables; therefore I've never auditioned them.
I understand. The problem is how do you try out various cables, especially if you are trying to buy used to save some money? I take your recommendations seriously. Thanks, R
Guido, That was very funny. Luckily, I don't think I have Audiophrenia Nervose but given that it is all about the music, it is hard to know if I have upgraditis? I mean, what I think happens, at least to me, is that my listening plateaus and I want to go deeper and deeper into the music. I am a professor of Indian philosophy and I use music as a way to open to writing and to meditation. So, it is very important to me. But, the technology is a means not an end. I must keep that in sight. Still, I have to say I do want to keep growing and sometimes that means upgrading and tweaking — just not YET. R
Hi Rinpoche, looks like you are a real lover of music instead of an obsessive audiophile... Stay the course... Enjoy the magic of music... And do not fall prey to Upgraditis Furiosa -- an extreme form of Audiophrenia Nervosa, whose perils are discussed in the seminal article linked below...
The speakers are fabulous. And they really fit with the JR amp.
During this whole process I contacted a JR dealer in the US. He said, "I think the Sabrinas are the absolute best speaker on the market in their price range." Now you might not agree and that could cause a whole other discussion (and maybe even a contentious one). Also, I can't say since I don't know that many speakers, but from the things I have heard while auditioning the various amps, they are (to my ears) excellent.
Also, so far they sound wonderful with the JR. They might be small and of course I could go bigger, but size is an issue in my home. For now, they sound really really really good. I am very happy with them.
Of course there are always better pieces out there, but I really need to just settle in to this for now and be happy. And I am!! You should hear them. They are very sweet. Thank inna.
Hmmm. Inna didn't you suggest that rinpoche explore Lamm and Gryphon with her speakers? Now you're suggesting that the Rowland might outclass her speakers. Help me understand why you recommended those and not something a step down from the Rowland given your comment above; I'm not quite tracking - txs
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