Rinpoche,
Absolutely logical explanation and response. It isn’t "always" necessary to take baby steps. Your Wilson and Rowland system have you perched at a pretty high level in the realm of High End Audio . Finding a highly regarded cable (that’s needed to complete your system connection ) for a very attractive price makes nothing but good sense. The Mogambi suggestion was made in part to satisfy my selfish curiosity. You have good ears and I would have been interested in your listening comparison.
Charles, |
Have you heard Peter, Paul and Mary sing All My Trials!! So gorgeous!! |
Loving Jennifer Warnes at this very moment!! |
Rinpoche, You've tested out the waters pretty well. Not much else to do now but enjoy. |
P. S. I am Canadian. We all dive right into the water/deep end. The water is way too cold to wade in slowly. LOL |
Hello,
I hear you, Mapman, and I agree. Here's the thing — with Guido's wise words — it seems that the DAC and amp will do splendidly on their own without the immediate need of a pre-amp. It might be fine forever that way. So, the only thing missing in this set up is a cable. One interconnect XLR. I budgeted for that. My x-dealer raved about the cable I found on Audiogon, and it was a great deal from my point of view. Less $$ than the Transparent loaner, which I found to be a bit blah. So, I can love it or list it -- as they say, and break even. Nothing to loose. Only experience is gained. Win win situation I think. If it doesn't work, I can always try the Mogami cable. The Dac has a new fuse, a new cord, and so on — it came that way from my nephew for free. What more is there to add? How might the thing be improved? I had no other plans. |
Its never a good idea usually to dive right into the deep end when swimming or buying, especially with consumer electronics where there are so many options both good and bad at so many price points. One almost owes it to themselves to try something well accepted and affordable like the Mogami pro wires first. What is there to loose? You can keep it as a spare or sell it easily for little loss if a comparison or change is desired. You’ll never know what is possible at various price points unless you try. Or in some cases money does not matter which is fine. But every dollar put into cables, fuses, amps, speakers whatever is a dollar that might be used to better effect elsewhere. It does require some time and patience to follow an orderly process that efficiently leads to good sound for reasonable cost. Also I understand that time is precious.. Just my two cents.... |
Thank you Charles, and everyone on this discussion. You helped me more than you know. I did take instruction and advice to heart. You are a great bunch and I am so grateful I started this in the first place. It is my first time doing this and it has been incredible, I think. Also, you all seem passionate and engaged in your own musical experiences and that is what comes through loud and clear. |
Hi Rinpoche,
I think it'd be fun and educational if you got 1 pair of the inexpensive Mogambi Gold Studio XLR cable for comparison to the esteemed AQ cable you're buying. I'm curious to read how much of a difference you'd hear between them. It's easy to make these suggestions with someone else's money. 😊 For record I feel you've assembled an excellent audio system.
Charles. |
PERFECT!!! Thanks Almarg! R |
You see, there is a 1 m Wel for sale also. But, of course, it is a bit more money. Other than resale, there is no point spending more as far as I can see. I agree completely. In fact spending more for the 1 meter WEL could very conceivably be sonically counterproductive. As I see it, in general the goal should be for a cable to have as little effect as possible on the signal it is conducting, and to convey the signal it is provided with in as accurate a manner as possible. In the case of cables conducting analog audio signals, it follows from what I have said about the relation between cable effects and cable length that a shorter cable will provide greater accuracy, and introduce less coloration, than a longer cable of the same type. Best regards, -- Al |
Hello,
Thanks, that helps.
You see, there is a 1 m Wel for sale also. But, of course, it is a bit more money. Other than resale, there is no point spending more as far as I can see. I trust the cable will be fine. I will get it, connect it, and leave it. And probably not think about it again until I buy a preamp down the road. Unless it sounds terrible , that is — but again I have few comparisons. I only have this loaner Transparent that to me sounds a bit blah to my ears. Buying the Wel means I won't buy the Crystal Cable interconnect or any other cable. I will just leave it in the system and hopefully be happy. |
Hi Rinpoche,
Apologies for my post not being stated more clearly.
No I was definitely not saying that the 0.5 meter cable would not sound good. As I indicated, "I’d feel pretty certain that the AQ cable will work fine."
In the post just above mine Guido expressed interest in learning from your forthcoming experience how well the AQ WEL synergizes with the Aeris and the 625 S2. When I said "I’d be hesitant to read too much into such a finding" I was simply saying that given the AQ cable’s short length, and given (as I said in that post and also earlier in the thread) that the degree of most (and probably almost all) sonic effects an analog interconnect cable may introduce is proportional to length (meaning that the degree of the sonic effects of an analog interconnect will be proportionately less for a short length than for a longer length), and given that the cable(s) you are in a position to compare the AQ with (the Transparent and perhaps the Crystal) were probably significantly longer, the data point your findings will provide relative to his question will be less than conclusive.
Best regards,
-- Al
|
Hi Almarg, Would you mind translating this for me? Are you saying that .5 m cable is not good in terms of sound? And what do you mean by 'but given its very short 0.5 meter length I'd be hesitant to read too much into such a finding'? I am not sure what you are saying?
Also, the DAC is definitely broken in, and I think the demo 625 is well on its way. I don't know for sure how many hours of operation.
R
|
I'd feel pretty certain that the AQ cable will work fine, but given its very short 0.5 meter length I'd be hesitant to read too much into such a finding. Given also that the Transparent cables and perhaps also Crystal cables that were used initially were probably significantly longer (the degree of most analog cable effects is proportional to length, as I had mentioned), and break-in of one or both components may be ongoing.
Best regards,
-- Al
|
Not sure what Bodhidharma might have enjoyed, as he seems to have decamped some 1500 years ago... But I might ask my cousin Luca about it.
As for WAL, I hope that RIMPOCHE will let us know soon about its synergy with Aeris and M625 S2... As far as I know, this might be a World's first application in this particular context. Saluti, G. |
|
Bodhidharma would enjoy the emptiness of this moment. So will I. |
I offered 1500 for the .5 m Wel and he accepted it.
|
WBY is "Wild Blue Yonder" which is the full name for the AQ Wild cable
WEL sounds so much better than Wild, if you are going to get a cable hold out for the WEL. The Wild for sale has no box which is a major no no with a used cable, easily reduces the value by 10% -- there is no reason it should have been sold sans box. My guess is based on the look of this pair is that they were cut down (by AQ, which is fine) from a longer set, the condition looks just like the way AQ returned my 12M WEL when I had it cut down to an 8M and two 2M cables
Of the two WEL for sale one (the 1M one) is odd. I have never seen a pair with a silver finish XLR, most are gold. Check the AQ price books to see what they should look like. This to me is fishy. I checked all the AQ pricebooks I have and none show a silver finish XLR. The newest with this old connector is Nov 2011. By 2013 they had switched to the newer connector so maybe around 2012 they used a different finish which would accord with the four year age but definitely worth a question and maybe contacting AQ. Also I have never seen one in this box (should be a fabric inner box with a flock finish outer like the 0.5M one, again maybe things changed more recently but this is the finish of all the ones I have seen and owned)
The second 0.5M pair looks good and is I believe a dealer demo (that's why it has the little plastic sleeves on the male end). Again no issue but check if the seller is the first owner and where they got it from
An issue with WEL XLR cables with this termination is that the XLR plugs can become disconnected. They are cold welded (basically screwed tight) to connect and if someone twists the connector relative to the cable the connections can be broken. You can fix this by taking the cable apart, or of course send back to AQ for re-termination (about $250 if I recall)
So net net if you can make 0.5M work in your setup then go for the 0.5M one, and offer closer to 25% ($1500) as a start for negotiation
|
Folkfreak, can you tell me what WBY means? And would it make sense then to go with the Blue yonder which is 1 m over the .5 m Wel?
|
Needless to say, the Devialet trade is terrible. I totally agree. And if I gave the impression otherwise, I am sorry for the confusion.
Folkfreak (I really like your user name), the choice is Blue Yonder 1 m for less $$ and newer cable, or Wel .5 m for more $$ but both are a good deal. Thing is, I don't really need more than .5 m. The DAC sits on top of the amp?
Ricred1, I agree but I am not in the market just yet for the preamp. It will come. Maybe in 6 months to a year. I will look to see if there are any good used preamps that will work with the 625. A Corus perhaps, but how often do they come up? A tube amp, perhaps? Maybe a demo. I would like to hear some with the amp but first want to spend sometime getting to know it as it is. So, a good cable makes sense, no?
|
Re the AQ cables -- I am a very satisfied user and buyer/seller of lots of WEL. WEL will beat WBY any time. As to the connectors don't worry, the old ones are fine. You should expect to pay no more than $2K (give or take) for a used 1M WEL interconnect. In general avoid 0.5M cables as they are a) the most expensive per 1M length, b) least useful in most setups and as a result c) hard to sell. AQ price books can be obtained from the AQ web site and typically expect to pay 25-35% of new price for a good quality used cable
AQ also stand behind their cables very well and will re-terminate or change the length of your cable at a reasonable cost
Finally if you are buying new you should expect at least a 20% discount, any dealer that is not prepared to offer a discount on AQ cables is having you on
Needless to say the Devialet for WBY trade is a dog |
Based on my experience I would limit how much I spent on cables and invest in a preamp. No absolutes, this is based on my system: JR 625 S2 amp, JR Aeris DAC, JR Corus preamp, Bryston BDP2, and Monitor Audio PL500's. Besides speakers, adding the Corus preamp was the most rewarding change that I've ever made. After speakers and the Corus adding the Torus power conditioner had the most positive impact on the sound. |
Sorry, that was very confusing. I see a pair of Wel on sale used elsewhere for a lot less money. They are older but does that matter? It was before the new connectors were implemented. I did not mean trade the Devialet for cables -- that would be a BAD deal. Very bad. But used AQ Wel might be good? No?
I also can buy CC Ultra from Croatia for a good price. |
Seems like the dealer knows the Devaliet is in fact worth more than the wires. It sounds like a bad deal. |
My dealer loves them with the Wilson's.
I think this seems to be a good deal — used — and so if I didn't like them — for whatever reason, I could always sell them again.
|
rinpoche,
The only thing I can say regarding your question above as to whether or not the 2 AQ cables are real or fake is that both members have good buyer feedback so one likely can expect that they are trustworthy.
Also, to your point, it is your ears and your budget and therefore your decision , not that of someone else that offered "direction"
|
Uhrn... Mayhaps Rinpoche is a "student", but in the sense of being a questing scholar, not in the sense of being in a subordinate position akin to the child who is expected to follow the teacher's ex cathedra pronouncements. So, let us share our experience, bering in mind that we are not the keepers of the "Trueth"... Lest we could start writing for Pravda.
|
Al,
That was pretty emphatic. So much for hypothetical musical utopias LOL.
Charles, |
Hello,
Okay, so explain this to me. My dealer says that AQ Wel and/or Blue Yonder costs more than $8000 CAD for a 2 m XLR interconnect. And on Audiogon there is a .5 m Wel with dbs for $1895 and a Blue Yonder for $1360. Now are they 'real' of 'fake'. How does one discern this? Even AQ suggests there are fakes out there. They look real from the pics. I am not stuck on AQ by any means, but wouldn't this be a good deal if it was authentic.
Also, a guy in Poland is selling a Crystal Cable Ultra interconnect for a reasonable price. I am a bit nervous (yes, it's true) about this deal, but it is a great product at a good price?
So, guys, what do you think? |
If the Odin loom were found to be truly ’" mind blowimg" transformative in your system would you be tempted to part ways with the Porsche? Think about it, a lover of classical music with "mind blowing " music reproduction in your home. Nope. No chance whatsoever. And I can always go to a live classical concert for even better sonics, in most cases at least. But that’s just me, and I recognize that it comes down to individual preferences and value judgments. Best regards, -- Al |
In this situation I'd sell the Devialet and use the money efficiently as possible i.e, bang for the buck approach. I agree wholeheartedly that there'd be enough money on-hand for both a very high quality preamplifier and sufficiently high quality 1 pair of interconnects.
Al, ,back to the hypothetical . It the Odin loom were found to be truly '" mind blowimg" transformative in your system would you be tempted to part ways with the Porsche? Think about it, a lover of classical music with "mind blowing " music reproduction in your home 😊😊
Charles, |
One thing I do agree with is that "we are headed in the wrong direction". While I do listen and learn and value all of your suggestions, in the end it is my ears and my budget at play. So, there have been many suggestions given throughout this 9 page discussion. Some great, some good, and some .....
I am listening and learning. As I keep telling you all (especially Inna). I am a Canadian and as such I use a Canadian audio site to sell stuff so I do have a very good profile with positive feedback. I don't use Audiogon because they charge a fee and shipping from Canada is expensive. The Devialet is on sale — it sells for 9999 new. I have had few real offers or I would sell it. I would never sell it for the price of a 6000 cable. I just wanted you all to know.
As for AQ, I used them in my last stereo and at the time (15 years ago) they were fine. Now I have Crystal Cable (for very specific reasons — it had synergy with the Devialet). The loaner Transparent sounds muddy, so I will not keep it and have to return it.
However, one of the kind people on this thread is sending me a cable so the immediacy of getting 'the right one' is not as urgent. And, you all know, it is a personal subjective thing — I think we could agree on that? I have been looking at the brands you suggested but have not found anything used for sale. I love used. I am a woman. Oh no, maybe I don't fit the stereo-type (no pun intended!!).
As for being able to differentiate between Vedic Sanskrit and Middle Persian, I am sure you could tell by the script that they are different. But I have to say I found that to be very funny.
One thing I can't digest and yet I respect and appreciate are the technical specifications. I remember when I heard the Sabrinas. Peter McGrath from Wilson was there. So, too, were about 10 men who had gathered for the audition. For the first hour all they did was talk and talk about 'specs' and tweeters and so on. Finally I asked, 'do you think we could listen to them?'. Peter laughed and said, 'oh of course.'
The thing about used gear is that you might not always find what you are looking for!! And I really don't think that goes for houses. I mean, who only buys new houses?
I am a student on this discussion. I have listened and acted on some of your advice. But, I am not bound by it either. R |
There might be a few things that complicate the matter.
Rinpoche is a professor. It is hard to be a student when you are a professor. She is a student here. Listening to advices is one thing, following them is something completely different.
I also believe that she doesn't want to deal with private sales, dealers are probably okay, so there may be a problem of selling that Deviolet amp. She might not have Audiogon feedback either. Selling something like that with zero feedback would be very difficult even at lower price.
She might not want to buy used, especially privately. Some people, more often women, don't buy anything used including houses and cars. Used is used, you know, it belonged to someone else, and in a sense still does.
But really, Rinpoche, there are Mogami studio XLR 1 meter pair cables on Audiogon. $95. You would do us all a favour to get them. Yes, I don't believe this will be enough, but I may be wrong. Please. $95. |
I agree completely with the foregoing comments. While I perhaps worded my Porsche/Odin comment more subtly than I should have, my main point (in addition to providing a bit of perspective on the cost of some of the cables that have been mentioned) was that I would not expect the proposed trade to have much likelihood of being sufficiently transformative to make sense. And I would expect that likelihood to be even lower in this case than in many other circumstances as a result of the technical characteristics of the components that are being connected, as I indicated earlier, and by the short length that is involved.
An approach that stands a much greater chance of being sonically rewarding, IMO, would be to sell the Devialet 200 integrated amp (which the last time I looked had a list price in the USA of just under $10K), and applying the proceeds to or toward the combination of a preamp and much less expensive cables.
Just my $0.02. Best regards,
-- Al
|
I can barely differentiate Vedic Sanskrit from Middle Persian, but one thing I am sure of. From slightly different perspectives four brands have been recommended to try first - Mogami, Purist Audio, Wireworld and Shunayata. Chances are that at least one of them would work really well, or perhaps all of them giving a little different presentations. |
We are headed in the wrong direction, I think. Whatever we say Rinpoche appears to return to one brand - Audioquest. Who can say why? Anyway, $6000 buys great used tube preamp, be it VAC or Lamm or something else. Or new Herron, as an example. No cable in any system is worth that much money until the system is complete. This one is not. Of course, if someone just must do it it's not really our business, but I certainly wouldn't be able to applaud it.
|
Yes wires worth that amount should trounce anything from Mogami. No way to know unless you try. You could end up better financially by spending less on wires and investing that money elsewhere in your system down the road if needed.
Its pretty senseless in my mind to drop a fortune on something based on retail price without any real basis for comparing its performance to other more affordable high quality options.
|
Porsche or Odin system loom? This would actually be an intriguing proposition "only" if the Odin caused a stunningly transformative improvement in your system’s sound quality. Al, I’m mean genuinely astonishing / sublime effect of which you’ve never experienced. Quite the the hypothetical situation. ☺☺
Charles, |
My suggestion about the proposed trade: Tell the dealer that before deciding you’d like to borrow the $6000 cables so that you can compare them in your own system to a 1 meter pair of Mogami Gold Studio, selling new for less than 2% of that amount. If she were to agree, and you do that, let us know the results.
Opinions will differ among different audiophiles as to the merits of the proposed trade, of course. But personally I’d no sooner trade my Porsche, which I love, for a pair of Nordost Odins :-)
Best,
-- Al
|
I could listen just to hear what it sounds like? Will I even be able to tell? |
Hi Rinpoche, I am not familiar with the Blue Yonder.... I am thinking that before you go for the swap, you give the cable an in depth audition.... In general it does take 300 to 500 hours for a new IC to yield its best.
In the end, you will be able to determine quite reliably on your own if the Blue Yonder is worth your Devialet in trade in, or it is not. As usual, trust your ears, and listen to our pronouncements solely with the proverbial "granu salis". Cur verba volant, sed sonus manet.
G.
G. |
You don't need $6000 cable. I suggest you refuse. |
You might not believe it but a dealer offered to trade my Devialet for an Audio Quest Blue Yonder intereconnect which in Canada sells for over $6000. Is this possible? |
rinpoche,
By all accounts, the Wireworld Platinum cables ricred is using with his Rowland gear are excellent and that should be a solid bet.
Don't let anyone turn you off of the Audioquest interconnects though. I use Niagara's which are a recent vintage AQ silver cable that are detailed, smooth...just great. They can be had at bargain prices when purchased used. The WEL cables you mentioned should be better by a good margin and are showing up at near 80% off here occasionally. They would be hard to beat.
|
Rinpoche,
Sorry, I was confused also. I'm glad you settled on the amp. Take your time putting together your system and enjoy the ride. It took me a very long time to get to this point. What helped me was going to RMAF last year. I'm came away with a real understanding of what sound I preferred. Not what was best, but what my preferences were. |
I kept the demo. It was new and is still breaking in. This is it.
Hope that helps to clarify. |
I was under the impression that the dealer's demonstration unit was purchased by Rinpoche.
Charles, |
Hi RinPoche, is the M625 your own unit now, or is it a demo that you need to return to Angie, and then will receive your own unit in the new year?
Sorry... Slightly confused. Guido |
