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A quote attributed to several different famous musicians, whoever it was who really said "there's only two kinds of music: good and bad" first was exactly right. I liked every one of the clips. Regardless of genre, honesty is the key; second even to execution. Even so, when the honesty part is not always obvious, if the execution is on such a high level, the music is good. I think George Benson is probably second only to Herbie Hancock in being able to bring such a high level or execution (jazz player sensibility) and honesty to the "pop" table that the results are great. Great guitar, great singer, great production values in that slick 70's kind of way. Same for Manhattan Transfer, but in a more (sorry) "white" kind of way.
Mars/Venus time. Mahalia and Pops: simple (in the good sense), uncluttered and from the heart; what can be said about perfection in a particular genre?
Thanks for the clips. |
Today's listen: Jackie McLean Quintet -- DYNASTY Features his son Rene. I loved this. Great Sax playing. Sort of in your face. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY02ZL3QrfoThe liner notes read like a Soap opera or a Police blotter. McLean plays with Mingus McLean gives Mingus his two week notice during a break at a gig in Cleveland. Mingus gets mad and punches McLean in the mouth McLean pulls knife and attempts to stab Mingus Someone grabs his arm and he only cuts Mingus Mingus leaves him stranded in Cleveland Mclean Pawns horn to get back to NYC Blakey asks McLean to join his band McLeans says I have no horn, it's owned by Mingus Blakey buys McLean a horn McLean leaves on tour with Blakey, did not tell Mingus Mingus comes to McLean's house banging on door McLeans wife threatens to call Police. Mingus sends telegram to McLean in Pittsburgh, on tour with Blakey, threatening to dump him in the East River. Damn!! He did say that Blakey taught him to play coherent, non-BS,. solos. Compared Blakey to a coach, and Mingus to a Drill Instructor. Said Mingus would have had even more success if he had respected his musicians. Question to The Frogman. What is a BS solo? And can you submit a clip with an example of one? I can only hope and pray that it won't be one of my favorite tunes. :) Cheers |
You are correct. "Good and Bad Music" just about says it all. Has that quote been taken away from The Duke??
Cheers |
Obviously, but who decides what is good and what is bad?
One mans meat is another's poison as also has been said before. |
****who decides what is good and what is bad?****
We each do. Some listeners just want simple pleasure from the listening experience without room for being challenged or taken outside a certain comfort zone and that is absolutely fine. For others, music is a bottomless font of possibilities and potential new discoveries. They listen with an open mind and a certain amount of respect for the opinion of others especially those who have more experience. The process is no different than determining what is a "bullshit" solo. When a musician of the stature of Jackie McLean says "that is a bullshit solo", even if it is not apparent to me right away I try to understand what he is hearing that I am not. Being a good and astute listener (and musician) demands an open mind and commitment to the idea that there is always more to learn.
Bullshit and non-bullshit clips later :-) |
OK Frogman, then why not just say whatever floats your boat? |
Because that's not what I said. That was your premise, not mine. I thought my previous comment was pretty clear. |
A "bullshit" solo in musician parlance is a solo that doesn't stay within the music's context. It is usually characterized by overplaying and being self-indulgent with too many notes, too fast, inappropriate effects, or trying too hard to be "hip" while not "saying" anything. Often, this is done to hide the fact that the player doesn't have a good command of the tune's harmonic changes and simply plays a lot of shit that doesn't fit the harmony; or, at best, fits the harmony but is not fully developed as a spontaneous composition. A great solo always keeps a connection to the melody of the tune and simply builds on it. I know he has many fans, but for me a great example of a chronic bullshitter is David Murray: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KrXIQ0_ogK0 |
Frogman, yes I see that now, I should have read it better first time. Senility is a bitch. |
Great clip of Jackie McLean, a classic non-bullshitter. First of all, fabulous contemporary alto sound. Re the subject of BS: pay attention to the shape of first six notes of the melody. A very simplistic analysis is that the third note of the melody is a wider interval (higher) than the first two, then the fifth goes back down and the sixth slightly higher; that's the shape of the tune. Importantly, and what gives the following solo musical integrity is that practically everything he plays relates somehow to that shape or to the length of that little phrase, and he goes on to expand on that and spontaneously compose a solo that has musical relevance and is not "bullshit". |
The clip of David Murray: He did seem to be stuck. The tune did nothing for me. Good to know I can recognize BS when I hear it, even if I cannot explain it. I wonder if he is the reason I never warmed to the WSQ as I thought I would. I will have to revisit them.
I only have one CD by Murray(saxmen). Played it when I bought it a few decades ago, and have not played it since. His association with Shepp and Pullen did not mean anything to me then. But, as you pointed out, he does have a large following.
Thanks for the analysis of the McLean tune. For some reason he seems to fly under the radar. Great player.
Question to The Frogman: Are there any BS Composers in Classical Music / Opera?? Names please. We must have names! If any, I would assume they would be 20th Century guys.
Cheers |
Frogman, I see that you are giving direction, and guidance; that is good. Just as a good musician will not play a BS solo, I have no intention of participating in a BS thread. When this thread gets back to it's original purpose and quality of posts, I will return.
I like the quality of your posts Rok, they're constantly improving.
Enjoy the music.
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The OP LIVES!!! I thought Miles' Aunt had done you in.
*****I have no intention of participating in a BS thread. When this thread gets back to it's original purpose and quality of posts, I will return.******
This statement demands further explaination. What is BS about the thread?
Cheers |
Agreed, further explanation would be good. What is BS about the thread, especially as things stand now? As the OP, perhaps you should "grab the bull(shit) by the horns". No? |
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Frogman, if this was a military operation, I would consider you second in command, and expect you to grab the BS posts by the horns.
When I spend time and effort researching material to move this conversation forward, and plumbing the depths of significant posts, only to have it all ignored while everyone goes off on a BS post that's not even related to this thread; I find that awfully disconcerting.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, "I'll Take You There"; this belongs in the category of good music.
"Disco Lady"; those were the days my friend, I thought they would never end.
"Rocksteady"; time to get on the dance floor.
"Do You Think I'm Sexy"; those disco days were a blast.
"Passion"; this one has the "Miami Vice" mystique.
Rok, variety is the spice of life; that play list had a lot of spice.
Enjoy the music.
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When/IF/ I get to heaven I'm going to ask God to spend my
vacation time in the section with this band.
Lester Young on tenor
Clifford Brown on horn
Eric Dolphly on flute
Mingus on double bass
Joe Pass on guitar
Toots T, on harp
Leader- J.S. Bach on B-3 |
Today's Listen: Modern Jazz Quartet -- ARTISTRY OF THE MJQ Early MJQ. Sonny Rollins appears on 4 of the 15 tracks. Since MJQ has never made a bad record, you know it's gotta be great. No Bullshit! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOYYaBBJr_ECheers |
CHRISTIAN MCBRIDE:
He makes good points, some of which I made 2000 posts ago. Remember I talked about the 'danger', he said the same thing, when he spoke of the 'critics' misleading the public. Just used different words.
Does all / most of FREE, and AVANT-GARDE Jazz, fall under the category of BULLSHIT?
Are there Bullshitters among Classical music Composers?
Cheers |
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O-10:
I can find no evidence that your posts have been ignored. This thread has regular contributors, and we know who they are.
There are also people that just 'make the rounds' commenting on every thread on Audiogon. I don't think they are 'into' talking about Jazz. But since it's an open forum, there is nothing that can, or should be, done about it.
However, sometimes the crap they say is so breathtakingly stupid, something has to be said in rebuttal. Hence the tangents away from Jazz.
Now, on the other hand, MY posts are routinely ignored!! Even ridiculed!! I know it's hard to believe, but it's true. Perhaps you, as the OP, can say a few words to correct this outrage. :)
Cheers |
Rok, you didn't even recognize that my very last post before this one, was in response to your play list that you posted on 02-07-15.
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Re bullshit and critics:
This has been an issue since time immemorial. It is the way it is and the way it will always be; as soon as someone is given a pulpit, personal agendas and politics of one sort or another will step in. However, there are some good critics that can offer solid guidance; and, more importantly and as with most things, it's up to the public that wants to make educated choices to educate itself and not rely only on what a "critic" says is good. Once again, THAT is the reason to learn more about the building blocks of music.
****But what I find some times in jazz is that you’ll find somebody can get up there and frankly, because I know my training as a musician, I know they’re completely bullshitting.****- McBride
It always comes back to that; assuming the listener wants to base his opinions on something other than gut or emotional reaction. Nothing inherently wrong with that approach, but it depends on how deeply the listener wants to dig"
IMO, a "danger" even bigger than the influence that a clueless critic who promotes bullshit might have is the danger of worthy music that is honestly and creatively pushing the envelope might be dismissed as bs or just noise. So to answer your question, no, not all free or avantgard Jazz is bs. There are a lot of good examples of free music that sticks to the rule of thumb that first a player needs to be able to play "inside" before he can play "outside. THAT is what McBride was saying. |
McBride:
Lord, Lord. I know he must have a grand plan.
This is what McBride said:
"But what I find some times in jazz is that you’ll find somebody can get up there and frankly, because I know my training as a musician, I know they’re completely bullshitting. And there’s always some critic who says, “Oh, he’s not bullshitting. He’s just expressing himself in a different kind of way.” And I’ll go, “That’s bullshit!” and now they’re creating a space for this person to garner an audience of confused people who don’t really know the difference: “Some critic said this guy can play. I don’t think he sounds as good as Sonny Rollins but someone said he’s a genius so I better pay attention to him.” Meanwhile, guys who are obviously greater at what they do--it’s almost as if people think anyone can do that. Now this sort of abstract, strange playing that no one can understand, some people now think that’s what they need to get with. Ahh, man".
THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF THE ENTIRE ARTICLE:
" And there’s always some critic who says, “Oh, he’s not bullshitting. He’s just expressing himself in a different kind of way.” And I’ll go, “That’s bullshit!” and now they’re creating a space for this person to garner an audience of confused people who don’t really know the difference: “Some critic said this guy can play. I don’t think he sounds as good as Sonny Rollins but someone said he’s a genius so I better pay attention to him.”
Check out the phrase 'creating space' for the noise makers to the detriment of Jazz and real players. Perfectly expressed!!!.
Cheers |
I agree; perfectly expressed and no different than anything I said. I am simply adding that it can't be stopped; it's the way it always has been and always will be. Only solution is for the public to educate itself and be able to make its own decisions. Bitching and moaning about a particular sad state of affairs seldom accomplishes anything. The "danger" that I am referring to I have seen in this thread several times. A worthy player is dismissed as a noisemaker and lumped in with the bullshitters simply because the style is not appreciated or understood. Seems to me that anyone who is serious about this music should promote its growth and appreciate the fact that it will evolve; not stifle it. The space created by the clueless critic then becomes far less relevant. Some of the bullshitters may not entirely disappear from the scene, but the good guys will rise to the top. |
People have been arguing over this since the start of Jazz. This open letter was written by Mingus, after he said, in a blind listening test, that Dave Brubeck and Paul Desmond were not doing it right. http://www.mingusmingusmingus.com/mingus/an-open-letter-to-miles-davis-I believe the open minded listener, Frogman spoke of, is more, by nature open to BS. The narrower minded person has it easy to say everything, not to his liking, is BS. I think , most of the time its like Pornography, I know it when I see it. ;) Hello O, Glad to see you! |
O-10:
I did notice your post. I just post that stuff from time to time, to have it handy when I am browsing the net. It is not Jazz, and I always indicate that it is not an official post.
The Winans and Marvis made this the definitive version of "I'll Take you There". Takes a lot, to out do Pops and the girls. Bought that one at the PX at Fort Rucker, Alabama. Don't know why it sticks in my mind.
"Disco Lady" takes me back to "The World Cup Club" in Uijeongbu, Korea. I can still see Miss Kim, Miss Park, and Miss Lee, et al, doing it on the dance floor. Those where the days.(1976) This is the city where the MASH unit of Movie and TV fame was located. The compound my unit was located on, served as the Morgue during the war.
Rod Stewart is one of the few Rockers I can tolerate. Always liked his voice. You hvae to hear him thru JBL's at volume!
I just like to watch the antics of En Vouge. Those babes act/sing, as if they are ready to throw down!
Glad you enjoyed them.
Cheers |
******The narrower minded person has it easy to say everything, not to his liking, is BS. ********
Makes life a lot simpler. And in the final analysis, isn't this what everyone does eventually?
If you want to know what you really like, ask yourself this question. What Jazz CD / LP do I listen to, the most?
I would like for all to answer that. What album do you listen to most often?
Me? The most reviled player on this thread. "Marsalis and Clapton Play The Blues." Great playing by anyone's standard!!
Cheers |
Acman3:
It's "I know obscenity when I see it." I am sure we all can recognize the other stuff. At least I hope so.
Cheers |
####******The narrower minded person has it easy to say everything, not to his liking, is BS. ********
Makes life a lot simpler. And in the final analysis, isn't this what everyone does eventually? **** ####
Nope. |
Howard Roberts, played guitar as performer since he was 15, blues in the begining, later has become a studio musician and educator. On couple occasions he recorded few jazz albums. Anybody interested in jazz guitar should not overlook his music. This album is from 1959, and aldo the cover looks 'sweet' the music is 'serious'. I have few of his albums, wish that he has recorded more jazz. http://youtu.be/I0El4NXHbWshttp://youtu.be/Oe0KKlCe-Schttp://youtu.be/gaY3oDuJ5Gg |
I roomed with a jazz guitar student in college and Howard Roberts was his idol. Very nice West Coast player. Thanks for taking me back 40 (!) years. |
Yet another example of why Jazz is here to stay; and, anyone who thinks there is no great jazz being played by new young players is simply not listening. This young kid can swing his ass off like there's no tomorrow; great player! (Oh, and don't worry too much about the bullshitters) No bullshit here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MIgAWwi4IVQ |
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I keep my car radio on the local jazz station which is owned by the Minneapolis School Board.
They put high school jazz ensembles on air that are unreal
good players.
Jazz is alive and well in the Twin Cities, you can catch local trios etc which are well worth hearing 7 days a week
and the famous Dakota Club is usually full.
ALL kinds of music do well here, I think the fact that this is the epi-center of the world in Choral music has a LOT to do with that. |
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Frogman, on the NPR program "Performance Today" this day there was a stupendous live performance by a student Sax Qt. from the Jacobs School at Indiana University.
They play all genres but today did the Bach Italian Concerto
BWV 971.
All the contrapuntal elements were there, the lines as well
and the barry laid down a ground that I would have thought impossible on a Sax.
They go by "Kenari Qt." and have a download on PT as well as a click to listen on right side, at least for today.
It would be a real treat to hear what you think of them ! |
*****This young kid can swing his ass off like there's no tomorrow; great player!******
The problem is, as I have said 3,025 times, Right next to 'Paterson' on the CD rack, is Peterson, Powell, Previn and even Don Pullen :) etc......... Why buy Paterson?
To compete against that group, You gotta be exceptional, and be exceptional more than just once.
This is something ALL artist face in this age of recorded music. Esp Jazz and Classical composers. The Masters never go away. Never die. They are as near as your computer / Amazon.
Cheers |
Schubert, it really is amazing how the bar had been raised by students in conservatory today. I have not heard that particular saxophone qt., but I am not surprised given what I know about the music program at IU. I will try and find a recording by them and report back. Your post is particularly relevant because I was going to comment on a post that you made in another thread about Bach being the most non-bs composer ever. I totally agree, and the proof for me is that I have never heard Bach played (well) on ANY instrument that it did not work; not something that can be said about most composers even great ones. Bach lends itself particularly well to the saxophone qt. as that ensemble has a sonority not unlike an organ. |
****The problem is, as I have said 3,025 times, Right next to 'Paterson' on the CD rack, is Peterson, Powell, Previn and even Don Pullen :) etc......... Why buy Paterson?****
Huh? I must have been on a different thread all those 3,025 posts, but seems to me that what you have been saying all this time is that there is no (or little) good jazz by new young players. Jazz is alive and well, and young players need our support and encouragement to raise the bar and push the envelope while letting the music evolve. I see no point in the constant negativity about the state of jazz. Using your criteria then, what is the point of buying Salvant or Marsalis? What has either done as musicians that has not been done better by many previous masters? And in the case of Salvant, not nearly as close to the standard which IMO Paterson approaches. |
Frog, you can download it from PT show and/or listen to it
on the second hour bar of listen today , just click on Bach Concerto.Just click on the photo of the QT and they start another piece,these guys are really special.
I know many musicians retire in Bloomington and IU is drawing top students from all over the world. |
Schubert, I listened to the Kenari Qt. on PR. Very impressive quartet by any standard; and especially for a student group. As has been mentioned it is really amazing the level achieved by young players today. They are truly an ensemble in that they listen to each other very well and do something that eludes many young players: the seamless continuation of a musical line, particularly in the fast tempi. Their intonation is excellent. Nitpicks: typical for a young group, they really shine with the fast tempi with nice forward momentum; somewhat less so in the slower tempi when they move a bit too quickly through some of the phrases and especially the ends of the phrases. The musically strongest players are the soprano and baritone and this is also reflected in a bit of imbalance with the soprano being a little too prominent at times; one wishes for the two inner voices to fill out the harmonies a bit more. This may be in part a result of the way the group was recorded. All in all a very impressive group. Thanks! |
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Just in case you missed this part. :)
A big misconception about Jazz is that you need to know something about it to enjoy it.
The truth is when someone hears music with this sizzle, crackling with suspense, and breathing like a living entity, it will stop you in your tracks. In fact, this applies to all forms of music. It’s the reason why some music grabs you and some doesn’t. Duke Ellington said there are two types of music: good and bad. It’s that simple. Jazz at its finest is like really great sex, or the best food in the world, you will want more and you damn sure wont be texting anyone in the middle of it.
Cheers |
Nothing new under the sun here. The bullshit cliche about jazz and the classroom is just that, bullshit and a cliche. Sure there are some players who sound that way; so what? There are plenty of players who learned jazz in the street who sound like shit. Why do you insist on lumping those in with the good ones with your blanket statements? Rock, it's pretty obvious by now how you will react when backed into a corner. Your generalizations simply don't hold water. Look, no one is saying that you need to "know" anything to enjoy jazz. But, if you think that Paterson sounds like he learned jazz in a classroom (whatever that means) while continuing to extol the virtues of an emotionally dry player like Marsalis, all I can say is that something is wrong. Cheers. |
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