ONE problem with you line of thought Learsfool.
It is far more important to be a good man than a great artist.
Wagner was NOT used by Nazi's ,in fact they toned down his anti-Semitism .You do NOT grasp the extent that Wagner made them possible in Germany.
Music is God's gift to man but it is not God.
That much is gray, does not make everything relative.
No one would die if Wagner's music vanished into the vapor forever. |
If you are guilty of malice than costs one child his life
it is better if you were never born if you are the greatest artist who ever lived or ever will . Wagner has the blood
of millions of them on his hands.
To justify him by his artistic greatness is sick. |
Schubert's logic is impeccable on that one. |
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Rod2kid thanks for the music!!! |
Schubert, I must protest that you go a little too far in your latest posts. Wagner never carried his anti-Semitism nearly so far as Hitler and the Nazis did. And yes, Hitler DID use Wagner's music at both his public rallies, and in the death camps (both well documented), thereby giving Wagner's anti-Semitism an even more horrific, exaggerated spin. Wagner would have been horrified by their death camps. This is of course NOT to justify or excuse or diminish Wagner's terribly racist views, but merely to say they did not go so far as the Nazis - he did not advocate actually killing/exterminating the Jews, even though he wished they didn't exist - those two things are NOT the same; Wagner never killed anyone, and his music certainly hasn't either.
Much of the anti-Semitism of Bayreuth over the years came actually from Cosima, after Richard's death, whose views were more extreme than her husband's; if you have read her diaries (which were only published in the 1980s), this is made quite clear. And it was a couple of their grandchildren who were cozy with the Nazis, against the wishes of some of the rest of the family, who were appalled, and distanced themselves, though they did not go public. There is an interesting book on the subject by one of his great grandsons, Siegfried, who has been ostracized from Bayreuth for finally bringing out in public some of the embarrassing Nazi associations of his family - at least as of a couple of years ago he is still an outsider. Unlike his successors, Wagner himself had no problem hiring Jews who were the best musicians, including Franz Strauss, the greatest horn player of his day (and father of the composer Richard Strauss). He premiered quite a few of Wagner's operas, in Munich and at Bayreuth. A Jewish conductor, Hermann Levi, premiered Parsifal at Bayreuth. Wagner did not like the fact these musicians were Jewish, but it did not prevent his artistic judgment from prevailing (despite his earlier views expressed in his bizarre pamphlet about the supposed reasons Jews could never be top rank artists).
I won't argue with your statement that it is more important to be a good man than a good artist - but that is not really the issue here. No one is arguing that Wagner was not a horrible person, and no one is trying to justify his racist views. I certainly hope you were not referring to me - I prefer to assume you were not, since I would find that highly offensive, having as I said lost many distant cousins in those Nazi death camps. Again, I believe one must separate the art from the man. And there are a great many Jews and artists who agree - Daniel Barenboim has done much great work uniting young Israeli and Palestinian musicians, in part with the music of Wagner! Controversial, yes. Effective, unquestionably. Music should heal; it should not foster more hatred.
Allow me to frame the argument in another way - should the world completely disregard one of its greatest artistic geniuses because he had some appalling personal views? Are you seriously advocating this? Are you not in fact therefore advocating censorship? Where does this line of thought stop? Is this type of reasoning any different from say someone who decides they don't want to hear Tchaikovsky, or Schubert, for that matter, because they liked young teenage boys? Or to hear Bruckner since he was supposedly a necrophiliac? Should we not listen to Gesualdo since he was a murderer? Should we not listen to Miles Davis because he used drugs? We could continue this indefinitely to complete absurdity; but to not listen to Wagner's music because he was racist does not make any more logical sense to me than any of these other examples. |
Nice post Learsfool.
I like to think of music as both an educational and healing force. Personally, I don't think enjoyment of an artists music is equivalent to liking them as a person. But liking them as a person is no doubt a plus.
My reaction in this case is to want to listen to more Wagner in probably a futile effort to try to understand the person better through his music, for better or for worse. |
Sophmoric nonsense.
You simply do not believe that any thing can be so evil that
to embrace any of it is to condone all of it. That there are any absolutes. I do
I originally said Wagner was the sole artist I would go to such lengths with.
Music is your God, it is not mine. |
Forgetting about Wagner and getting back to the original title of this thread "Jazz for Aficionados" ..... How about 1959 ? In one year, four of arguably the most important albums in all of jazz history were released. Dave Brubeck's "Time Out," Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue," Ornate Coleman's "The Shape of Jazz to Come," and Charles Mingus' "Mingus Ah Um." Oh man, what a year !! So come on boys and girls, pull out these records and treat yourselves to some amazing music. Truly, jazz for aficionados. |
No one has to read posts of no interest to them. |
Schubert .... I have no idea what you mean by your reply to my post.
Anyway ..... getting back to the OP's original query about "must have" jazz albums...... I was four years old by the end of 1959, so I certainly don't remember these albums when they were first released. However, when I got my first "real stereo" in 1981 (Yamaha receiver, B & O Beogram 3404 table, and Mission 717 speakers), my Dad told me it was time to learn about jazz. Sure, he understood my taste in music during my high school and college days of the 1970's, and often paid for my purchases of records by Dylan, the Dead, the Allman Brothers, CSN&Y, Loggins & Messina, the Beatles, the Stones, Deep Purple, Moody Blues, etc., etc. ..... but he said that now that I had a "really good stereo system," I should start listening to jazz.
He immediately bought me my first jazz record, an Illinois Jacquet album, and then told me about the "four great records" of 1959. So, it was with records like "Kind of Blue" and "Time Out" that started me on my long love affair with small ensemble acoustic jazz. I just turned 59, and although my system is better than it was in 1981, and my music collection has expanded to almost 2000 records and CD's, I'll never forget the first time the needle hit the groove on the classic jazz albums of 1959. I'm still loving those great tunes by Miles, Brubeck, Mingus and all the boys. Thanks a lot Dad ! |
Not released until 1960, but recorded mostly in 1959, Coltrane's "Giant Steps" would change everything |
Incredible album Frogman .... I agree. Fantastic body of music ! I'm sure you're aware that, although "Giant Steps" was John Coltrane's debut recording for Atlantic Records as a group leader, he was concurrently performing and recording with Miles Davis. Did you know that within the space of less than three weeks, Coltrane would complete his work with Miles , Cannonball Adderly, Jimmy Cobb, and the rest of the boys on "Kind of Blue," before commencing his efforts on this one. Pretty awesome stuff ! |
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****Incredible album.....**** Yup! The tune "Giant Steps" would literally be a giant step for improvisers on all instruments; an amazing test of a player's ability to make music over an incredibly complex chord progression like never seen before. Even the great Tommy Flanagan struggles with the changes when he solos. He is tentative from the very beginning and one gets the feeling that he is saying "what the f&%k?", and by 3:30 simply gives up and just comps them. Hard to say wether they planned it this way, but Coltrane then takes over again like the phenom he was and finishes what should have been Flanagan's solo. Amazing stuff! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xr0Tfng9SP0 |
I love this song. I remember the original from back in the day. It was nice, but nothing like this. The first time it grabbed me was when I was watching a TV Detective show, and a Female Impersonator was singing this in a gay bar. He nailed it!! Been a favorite of mine since then. This female looks much better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmMjhoyILLgCheers |
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THanks for teh BEck/May link.
I have that JEff BEck CD. Lots of fun and really good! |
Beck was great on both clips. He always is. I confess, I was more taken with the babes!! There is a lot of talent today, they just need to sing the great songs, regardless of era. Classical players do it everyday.
Speaking of Buddy Guy, earlier today, I almost posted him with Roland Kirk, of all people. The sound quality was subpar so I didn't.
BTW, Etta James was known to threaten to kick folks' Ass for singing her songs. Esp if they did it as well as she did. Beyonce for example. But Etta is with the Lord now, so the danger has passed.
Thanks for the clip. Nice to see Buddy get his due.
Cheers |
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Schubert, I can't resist one more question - please explain to us how Wagner's music (or anyone else's, for that matter) can possibly be construed as EVIL (aside from the evil of using it torture Jews in the Nazi death camps by blasting it incessantly, but this is NOT the music's evil, nor was it the wildest intentions of the composer for it to be used in such a manner). Who is really making the sophomoric posts here? OK, that was two questions, sorry folks. Adam is right to pull this thread back to jazz.
I have a suggestion for Frogman. If you were to suggest several albums to showcase/illustrate the development of jazz improvisation, which would you pick, and why? To clarify, I am not asking for a favorite list, or a top ten list, but a selection of albums for the study of improvisation and how it is done and how it has developed at the highest levels in jazz. Would others also be interested in this as a topic for this thread? |
Learsfool: I understand some folks, but I am surprised that you would consider this Wagner thingy anything but silly. Has nothing to do with him being a nice person. Has to do with him being dead 50 years before the Nazis came to power. A few facts: Prior to the war, Germany was considered the most progressive and liberal nation in Europe with respect to "The Jewish Question". They prospered there like no other place. You want balant anti-semtism, try France, Poland and Russia. When the Nazis, before the war, started "mercy-killing" of German people with mental defects, the German church community protested, and they stopped it. Hitler never did anything that he felt would anger the German people. No German soldier was ever punished for refusing to commit murder or any other atrocity. Many refused to go on the massacres by gun fire, and were not sanctioned. However, there was never a lack of willing volunteers. EVERY country that was occupied by Germany, provided SS Divisions to fight with the Germans on the Eastern front. France, Belguim, Holland, Norway, Russia, Croatia,Italy, Romania, Hungary. The European mind set of that time was Communism = Judaism. And the fought to "Save" Europe. The last soldier fighting in Berlin to defend Hitler's bunker, was a Frenchman. He survived the war. By 1944, the SS was only about 50% German. The Germans had local government help, in every country, in rounding up Jews. They could not have done it without this help. The most Obscene picture from WWII. They often did this to save bullets. One would kill baby and mother. http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM2.N.SHOOT.WOMEN.JPGMaybe the soldier had just been fired up by a performance of "Die Walkure". What should be the take away from all this? Hitler and Wagner, didn't kill anyone. But still there are 50 million dead! Who did it? EUROPE did it!! Europe committed the Holocaust. And no one there, regrets what happened, to this day!! Cheers |
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So is no one interested in the topic I proposed? |
I'm game. Good idea; if there is interest. |
I am stoked as we enter into 2015 and await the Jazz offerings for this new year. The last few years have been especially excellent for Jazz music. Happy Listening All! |
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Very cool Frogman ... Very cool indeed. Thanks for sharing this awesome tune with us ! |
You're welcome. Recorded in 1961 and close to the magic year 1959; an amazing time for jazz. 1961 was also the year that Oliver Nelson's "Blues And The Abstract Truth" was recorded. It's interesting to note how much Hubbard's solo on "Society Red" sounds like his solo on "Stolen Moments" from "BATAT" as an indication of where he was at in his development as an improviser. Dexter was at his peak and sounds incredible. Glad you liked it. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RbaGDDbpcQ4 |
And as I'm loving the tune as done on "BATAT," here's a nice version of "Stolen Moments" as interpreted by Ahmad Jamal .....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HClD5wy7K5s |
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Orpheus, or anyone else, do you know more about organ and piano player Billy Gardner? The other day I was listening some Chaarlie Rouse album, and piano player was great. It is the same man that played with Grant Green and Lou Donaldson as well, but little is known about him. Could someone tell more, please? Link, if somebody is interested... http://youtu.be/HfVmSOlw4WAhttp://youtu.be/_I3WXYncRrAThanks |
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I have this one by Roscoe Mitchell. Tracks named 'Sound 1' and 'Sound 2' and two named 'Ornette', should tell you what to expect. I know this is good stuff because Stereo Review said it was, and they never steered me wrong. I just have to grow into it. It's a lot more 'accessible' today than it was when I bought it. I'm getting there! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJST92-UNVEHave several by Threadgill. Still coming to grips with him also. Very interesting clip. When you can see the music being created it does make a person appreciate it more. I had no idea these guys were still alive! I expect this sort of thing from NYC. Never considered Chicago much of a cutting edge Jazz town. I noticed it's recorded on the great Blues label, Delmark. Cheers |
Thanks Frogman! That was great, although so many of my heroes are getting old.
Rok, I am impressed. Keep at the Threadgill, there is a lot there. Not always easy to see. |
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Interesting piece tonight on the BBC World News "witness" segment.
They interviewed Jimmy Cobb, the drummer on KOB. He said that the KOB session was just about done in one take. The tape was only stopped once, on 'freddie Freeloader'.
He said they did not anticipate the reception from the public, that KOB received.
Cobb is in his 80's but looked as if he could be in his 50's or 60's. Nice to see a Jazz guy have a long and apparently healthy life. He is still playing.
They also interviewed the guy that created the phone service centers in India, to which all calls for assistance from the U.S., are now routed. I would have thought this guy would be in Jail, for crimes against humanity, or at least on the run from Interpol!!
Cheers |
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Unbelievable! 86 yrs old and still playing like that; I'll be glad if I can still pick my nose at 86. Nice clip. |
Frogman, with the US life-expectancy on a steady downward turn, you'll be lucky to still be breathing at 86.
I read an article lately with a graph showing the age convergence points of the average bodily pesticide load of German and American males.
Lines crossed at 78 for the former and 23 for the later.
FDA allowance for pesticides level on Organic veggies are higher that EU standards for normal status . |
While browsing my CDs today came across this CD by Quincy Jones. I love this music. I think he is awesome!! Highly intelligent and an unbeliveable talent!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF-3Ru2N8eQI know he is the greatest something, but just what, I can't answer. Hell, he even made Rap sound interesting. I got this from Wiki. High praise, but it causes my BS alarm to start quivering. Although, he was one of the players that led me to Jazz. From Wiki: "Among his awards, Jones was named by Time Magazine as one of the most influential jazz musicians of the 20th century." Could this be true? Perhaps The Frogman can enlightened us. Cheers |
You are correct, Quincy Jones is awesome and an amazing talent. Great orchestrator, composer and band leader/conductor. Great examples of this are Sinatra's "Live At The Sands", his work with the Basie band and movie scores like "The Pawnbroker" among many other accomplishments; not to mention something like 25 (?!?!) Grammy's. My undertaning is that he was also a pretty good trumpet player. ****"Among his awards, Jones was named by Time Magazine as one of the most influential jazz musicians of the 20th century."**** I would have to agree, but with a caveat. He was definitely a jazz musician and he was one of the most influential musicians of the 20th century; but, his greatest influence was not in jazz. Quincy's greatest talent and influence (and not to take anything away from all his other talents) was as a producer; particularly in the r&b genre. As a r&b producer he probably has no equal. His work on his own and Michael Jackson's (among others) records was pretty amazing if you are into that kind of stuff (I like it). He brings an accomplished jazz musicinan's sensibility to the r&b table which combined with a masterful understanding of what is technically possible in a recording studio yielded results which are pretty amazing. I really like "The Dude". I also like "Sounds,,,,and Stuff Like That". One of my favorite cuts on that one is Herbie Hancocks' "Tell Me A Bedtime Story" on which he takes Herbie's improvised solo and multitracks the transcribed piano solo with a violin "section" (one player). His use of voices and horns to create textures is amazing. I particularly like how he uses the rhythmic handclaps as practically the only changing, and tension building, aspect of the music which, with the exception of Herbies's solo, is pretty repetitive. First it's one handclap per measure, then on two and four, then on every beat, then on upbeats and downbeats. It's kind of a cliche, but he truly uses the studio as his instrument. If you like that kind of slick studio sensibility, it's great stuff. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=utuIBp-YwSc |
I referred to Q Jones in the past tense a couple of times; obviously those were typos he is still with us and doing great work. |
"He brings an accomplished jazz musicinan's sensibility to the r&b table which"
Excellent point. Sort of like the session musicians that backed a lot of the MOTOWN groups. No garage bands there.
I have many of his records on LP including 'Sounds'. I remember where I bought "The Dude". At a Record store in Nuremberg, Germany. There are quite a few CDs / LPs that I remember that way. Don't know why.
"I referred to Q Jones in the past tense a couple of times"
I refer to them all in the present tense. To me, they are still with us, and will always be with us.
Thanks for the clip and the breakdown on his music.
Cheers |
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The Soul Train Clip: I think Quincy just liked to be around young babes errrr I mean young musicians. Maybe he thought they kept him young. What ridiculous hairdos!! Never did like the Brothers Johnson. I felt that era was sort of sterile, music wise.
Cheers |
Today's Listen: Benny Goodman -- LIVE AT CARNEGIE HALL Historic. Goodman's attempt to bring the great unwashed into the Jazz fold. Problem is, I think he succeeded!! Numbers do count. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq6mwozI-MsNow you know why it's called Swing. Cause it do!! Why do I have two of these. Different album covers and order of tunes, but the same concert. Have I been snookered? Cheers |
I may be nuts, in fact I know I am, but two jazz musicians that have received great acclaim sound unable to keep time
to my ears.
Benny Goodman and Diana Krall. |
Rok, My father who would have been in his 20s at the time of that concert falls into that category. He grew up poor and relatively uneducated though brought up on good ethics on a farm in rural Pennsylvania. Benny Goodman was the only jazz performer I recall him having an interest in. He was not a record buyer but did like music and had a record of that performance which was my first exposure to big band music as a kid in the 60's as I recall. |
Mapman:
My Father would have been about the same age. He was more into the Delta Blues and R&B. But my Mother and Aunts were crazy about all the big Bands. Goodman, Ellington, Basie, Miller and the Dorsey Boys. And of course, Harry James was the 'bees knees'! I remember reading the labels on all the 78's.
Goodman is a seminal figure in Jazz for many different reasons. One of the good guys!!
Cheers |
