Horowitz is able to play everything more than well.... But Scriabin music ask for a magician dedicated to him in a total devotion ( like Wagner and Beethoven ask for total devotion)...
He is not my favorite in Scriabin, for example Igor Zhukov is better for Scriabin but who know him ?
Physical time has nothing to do with musical time, physical time is measured metronomically or with an hour glass or a watch...
Musical time cannot be measured by a metronome, there is a "beat" in it that swing for some heart as another heart and cannot be measured... Musical time result from the encounter of the heart of a musician with the heart of another musician ( a collegue, a meastro, a composer ) then cannot be measured, it surge one moment to the next imprevisible...
It is like that Scriabin must be played... Scriabin ask for another musician because his goal was awaking humanity... On this he differ from Bach who serve God, and resemble Beethoven more than Wagner ( Wagner use an ideology on which and from which his music is born).
I discovered also that Liszt also like Scriabin is almost impossible to play for the same reason ...
I begin suddenly to be moved by Liszt now who became one of my God thanks to very few pianist able to play it...
Scriabin is born not only from Chopin but from Liszt like a blacksmith in his forge, scuplting iron in the form of blooming flower.
Here what Debussy has to say about his contemporary Scriabin:
«This is a recording from one of Debussy’s concerts. He performed this piece after traveling to the Gobi Desert. Debussy remarked once during his tour: "Even composers like Liszt, Beethoven, and Chopin could not reach the complexity brought by Alexander Scriabin." "I have never seen such genius in a piece."»
listen to Debussy playing Scriabin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wZkA-HvPUU
I must add about Debussy that i discovred him with Ivan Moravec, a god pianist also who put me to ecstasy able to play the "cathédrale engloutie" so well i see the cathédrale before me appearing... Since i bought all albums of Moravec...He is my third God pianist.
Even with the bad recording we can hear that Debussy get scriabin right. it is incredibly moving ..His playing is delicately chiseled with a timing sense extraordinary which prove out of any doubt that he understood Scriabin and not only loved him.
Compare to Sofronitsky interpretation the God pianist of Scriabin in his daughter opinion and in the mind of all Russians :
Sofronitsky and his volcanic playing :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RwdHs756l4&list=RD1RwdHs756l4&start_radio=1
Now listen Scriabin himself as "recorded" by mechanical method :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfYMFNjSMnU&list=RDVfYMFNjSMnU&start_radio=1
Scriabin is the greatest pianist with Liszt ( i discovered Liszt with Ervin Nyiregyházi my second interpreter with Sofronitsky/Scriabin)
Is this extrapolation close to what you were getting at?
BTW, I will be listening to Scriabin this week. I have a feeling that Horowitz is not on your list of people who play him well.
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@mahgister, what I am hearing from you, while listening to Scriabin played by Richter, is about how a musician can translate the composer's passion, and a large aspect of that is in the understanding of timing, or perhaps the composer's magical heartbeat. I was talking about the listener getting so involved in the music that she loses a sense of time. I think that is what passionate moments are about.
@stuartk, I will post a poem below about jazz. It might help in the understanding of the poem to know how I work. I was taught, and I have taught others, to write in images. As one of the most influential American poets, William Carlos Williams, said: "There are no ideas but in things." So poems are not about ideas, they are more about dreams and the translation of images. That approach to poetry is difficult to accomplish but also freeing. Perhaps it might free you?
Max Beckman was a pre-Hitlerian German painter who sensed what was coming and captured the distortions of Germany to come under Hitler. In Germany, as in America, jazz was considered "decadent" music. It was played in speakeasys here and in clubs in Germany shunned by conservative society.
As @maghister said, rhythm is a very integral part of poems. And I worked carefully on the lines and the way the rhythm works.
MAX BECKMAN'S FACES
they were all caught
looking over
their shoulders stunned
by how easy young bodies
glide into jazz
&
the way cigarette
smoke
from a vamp
aging before our
eyes crawls
up the cheek
of an idle dandy
& disappears
in his hair
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Listening to Lee Morgan, Here’s Lee Morgan. (1960-2025 Remaster)
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Qobuz directed me to Alan Broadbent, Threads of time. Recorded in ‘24 and released in ‘25.
A new recording with a very old feel.
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An old recording with an old feel. Django Reinhardt with perhaps the greatest jazz violinist of all time Stephan Grapelli. They played in the 1920s and 1930s in the Paris Hot Club. I was lucky enough to see Stephan Grapelli live playing with David Grisman and his "Dawg Music."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTH_Nn_TtDI
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@stuartk
No I haven't heard that. I like it. I'll check it out on Qobuz. I'm still watching "Jazz" by Ken Burns. I'm getting so much more out of it than I did thirty years ago. Watching Wynton Marsalis talk about the genius of Louis Armstrong is amazing.
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I discovered jazz ready to understanding it late in my 35 years forty years ago then...
But your post remind me that i bought a Louis Armstrong album where he sang also ... I was young in my 20...But for me this album was not a door to enter into jazz, it was Louis Armstrong as a unique artist so big (the sun) then, it was more than jazz itself for me at the times because no one else compared one second in my young heart to Louis voice and trumpet...It takes 15 more years for me to discover Chet Baker ( the moon) then and others jazz artists...
Marsalis describe well in 2 minutes what i felt without knowing it at the time :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtfXf49A42Q
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@audio-b-dog
You mentioned Grisman, which reminded me of Old and In The Way and his associate in that band, Vassar Clements, who was clearly not a Jazz musician but nevertheless quite "jazzy" in his approach. I’m guessing he was influenced in this regard by way of Western Swing. I’ve always liked his playing.
On a completely different tangent, I once saw Yehudi Menuhin with Ravi Shankar and a band composed of L. A. studio players including Bud Shank and Dennis Budimir play outdoors in Ojai. It was supposed to be some sort of Indo-Jazz Fusion but I don’t remember the music, as this was back in the 70’s. You can interpret that as you will ... ;o)
@mahgister
You’ve got me curious. Which heavenly bodies do you associate with other well-known trumpet players?
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@mahgister
You’ve got me curious. Which heavenly bodies do you associate with other well-known trumpet players?
Miles Davis is Jupiter...For sure...
I had not decided who is Saturn yet and Uranus Neptune and Pluto... Too much great trumpet players to analyse and feel....
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@mahgister
I had a friend when I was in high school who introduced me to jazz. Art Tatum was the first jazz player I heard and then I picked up an Ahmed Jamal album. Ahmed played more for a jazz bar than Tatum. I just watched a piece on Tatum on the "Jazz" series and he was amazing. He blew people away with his skill. I also watched a lot of footage of Marsalis talking about Armstrong. He got on his trumpet and showed the things Armstrong invented.
@stuartk,
I have an album with Shankar and Menuhin. I think I must have seen them a long time ago either live or on TV. They're amazing together.
@tyray
Grappelli played with Django Reidnhardt whose band was famous in Paris. When he came to the states much later, he's played with a lot of people. I have a number of his albums. One with Itzhak Perlman. My favorite is with Teresa Brewer. They're like a cute couple together. I loved the Grappelli/Grisman concert I saw live. Grisman is supposedly a blue grass player, but I think he transcends that genre.
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@mahgister
I can see how the dazzling, uplifting Armstrong would be the progenitor solar body and the nocturnal, melancholic Baker, the moon, but I'm not sure about Miles as Jupiter. Perhaps because Miles went through so many stylistic shifts, I'm finding it challenging to see what remained constant and characterize whatever that essence was, metaphorically. He was creatively restless; always looking forward to the next phase. I'm not sure what his capacity for reinvention suggests in terms of astronomnical phenomenon. He was of course one of the greatest band-leaders, in terms of magnetically bringing together shifting constellations of highly gifted players into his orbit or gravitational field... so many bright bodies... Coltrane, Hancock, Carter, Williams, Shorter, Holland, Corea, McLaughlin, Jarrett, etc. Perhaps if I was more scientifically astute, your analogy would be clearer to me.
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@audio-b-dog
I agree that Grisman transcends the genre, as do Tony Rice, Mark O’Connor, Chris Thile, Jerry Douglas, Sarah Jarosz, Bela Fleck and numerous others. Grisman’s pioneering Dawg Music led the way into a rich and fascinating cross pollination of acoustic genres that is ongoing. This new frontier attracts many gifted young players. I suspect many Boomers who complain about the supposed lack of high quality music at present are totally ignorant of this segment of music. Such a shame!
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Jupiter protect the solar system of jazz music... After Armstrong Sun birth , i think the most influential trumpet was Miles second only in influence by his creative size to Armstrong the sun ...No other trumpeter can be or had been bigger than these two by their archetypal influence ...
It is just subjective metaphors not something i felt to justify in debating.. You get it or you dont...
Chet Baker is the moon for me because his most of the times introvert playing is completely complementary in energy to extrovert Armstrong, and the two luminaries sing as they play in the same way, which is unique among trumpeters...
I spoke also about trumpeters if you remind not of other instrumentists when i use these planetary metaphors to describe my subjective impression of trumpeters in Jazz.....
I will not try be more "scientifically astute" and you dont need too ...Sorry.. I am not a musician...You are... Then the metaphors spoke to you or not, they are only the means to convey a subjective impression (mine) ...
I like the trumpet as much as the piano in jazz... This is why speaking of trumpeters in jazz i thought about these metaphors evident for me about these 3 giants.........
I can see how the dazzling, uplifting Armstrong would be the progenitor solar body and the nocturnal, melancholic Baker, the moon, but I’m not sure about Miles as Jupiter. Perhaps because Miles went through so many stylistic shifts,
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@mahgister
It is just subjective metaphors not something i felt to justify in debating.. You get it or you dont...
FYI, I wasn’t challenging you. Just wanting to understand more clearly where you were coming from, which you did address when you said:
Chet Baker is the moon for me because his most of the times introvert playing is completely complementary in energy to extrovert Armstrong...
This makes sense. Thanks.
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@stuartk,
I forgot to mention, and you probably already know this, that Ken Burns also did a series on country music which I enjoyed. I believe that all music influences all other music. Musicians are people and listen to the world of music.
I pretty much listened to classical music until I went to college and then the "crowd" pulled me into other kinds of music. We were going to bars and the Fillmore and dancing, and you can't do that to classical music.
A woman at a party I went to last night mentioned Alban Berg, so I'm now listening to him because he's a classical composer I don't know much about.
You are right about Baby Boomers, but I think it's true of all groups. They stop learning about music after they settle into adulthood. I am constantly trying to find new things but it's difficult to adjust one's musical understanding.
My friend who goes to jazz concerts with me loves Billy Strings. I've tried him but wasn't drawn back. You seem to know a lot about bluegrass. A lot more than I do. I've just kind of picked a few cherries off the bush.
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@audio-b-dog
I am envious of your luck, growing up in the Bay Area in that era!
You are no doubt correct about each generation tending to focus upon whatever music they happened to grow up with.
I didn’t see that K. Burns Country series. I will look for it.
I don’t actually know much about Bluegrass but have been exploring what I simply call "new acoustic music" that often includes Bluegrass influences for some time. I’m happy to PM you with some recommendations if you are interested. There is much to explore in this territory where various genres overlap/intermix and there are some very fine players/singers who’ve found a home there.
FWIW, Billy Strings doesn't really grab me, either. He's a fine player but I simply don't find his material very engaging. Same goes for Molly Tuttle.
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@stuartk
Please PM me with suggestions. I have a triple album of Allison Krauss and some of her CDs, but really don't know anybody else. I like the jazz-influenced Bluegrass and love jazz violin when it swings. I used to listen to Joe Venuti and Jean-Luc Ponty but don't have any of their recordings. I think you'll enjoy Burns' Country Music series. In later episodes he talks about California (Bakersfield mostly) country music. I was in elementary school in the mid-fifties and we had to learn square dancing. There was a strong country influence here.
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@stuartk
PBS _ Jazz and Blues in (Country) Western Swing
And just for shiggles and gits:
It’s my impression that the Spanish-Western Tex/Mex/Cali contributions to country music was and has always been way, way under credited and appreciated to that genre of music. Miguel Aceves Mejía, "Malagueña Salerosa"
And Malagueña Salerosa, also known as La Malagueña and not to be confused with Roy Clark - Malaguena -1969 who indecently was also a country and western entertainer/musician, written by Ernesto Lecuona of Cuba. Originally the sixth movement of his Andalucia Suite.
And check out Linda Ronstadt - ’CANCIONES DE MI PADRE’ {{H.D.}} (Complete) -1989
@audio-b-dog,
Yeah I knew who Django Reinhardt was. When I first started to take a deep dive into George Benson I was rather shocked actually to find out his favorite guitar slinger who I knew nothing about, at the time, was Django Reinhardt instead of Wes Montgomery! Needless to say I had to take a deep dive into his music, but at the time I didn’t have the musical wherewithal to take a deeper dive into the study of some of his bandmates as I was smitten by his broken fingered playing.
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@tyray
Thanks for the links.
Love Ray Benson.
So, is Malagueña Salerosa Mariachi or some other style?
I love how Ry Cooder incorporated Ranchera music into his Chicken Skin Review. There was a great interview in Guitar Player back in the 70’s where he described how he’d heard Ranchera on the radio in LA and was moved to buy an accordion and learn to play it. Then he tracked down Flaco Jimenez and eventually managed to convince him to join with Ry’s Gospel singer buddies in a new group. Who would’ve imagined such a stylistic mash-up would be successful?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uiq61V_HPgg&list=PL5D5ADD135428963F&index=6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyCtEDGG_jI&list=PL5D5ADD135428963F&index=1
One of my all-time favorite groups.
Oops-- I've managed to stray from Jazz again!
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@stuartk,
Yes! It’s been many, many, many years since I’ve even thought of Ry Cooder! What a treasure, a (modern) human version of a consequential ’Bluesman’.
So, is Malagueña Salerosa Mariachi or some other style?
To me ’Cancion Ranchera’ or Mariachi, absolutely, to me anyway.
Oops-- I’ve managed to stray from Jazz again!
I think it’s ok cause Bob Wills not only incorporated jazz into his music but certain aspects of Mariachi/Cancion Ranchera also.
And one thing I know about musicians, they will steal each other’s licks. Don’t tell me Grappelli didn’t steal some licks from those American GI’s in France from them Southern boys (black and white) in WW1 and some from Grisman too.
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@tyray
Yeah -- it seems such "theft" is one of the defining characteristics of American musical genres, including Jazz !
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What’s that story about Charlie Parker? He’d go into a diner and play Hank Williams Sr’s music/songs on one of those old booth table top record players over, and over and over. He called it (white man’s) blues. A prime example of an audiophile if you ask me?
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@tyray
I hadn’t heard that story but ’ol Hank sure enough had the Blues... no doubt about it.
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@stuartk,
My computer is being fixed and I'm using my wife's. I can't find how to find PMs on here. I'm starting my writing day. If I have time and energy later, I'll poke around some more. But that's why I'm not answering.
I like that cut by Charles Lloyd. I'll Qobuz him and look through my collection. I might even have a recording or two.
Yes. I was lucky in many ways when I grew up. Once I received a college degree, I didn't really have to sweat finding a job. I ended up in complicated high-tech sales and was able to make a decent living. A couple of other little addendums: I saw Benny Goodman play at Disneyland but I was too young and ignorant to appreciate him. When I went to my father's AFLCIO union picnics I sat at Pete Seager's feet as he played. I went to Shelly's Manhole before I could appreciate it. And I grew up with jazz around the house. I remember Ella Fitzgerald sings Gershwin.
@tyray,
I think Django got a couple of fingers of his left hand shot off during WWII. Another thing that makes him amazing. If you watch Richie Havens in that Woodstock film he plays with one finger barring the fret board. I have no idea how he tuned the damn thing. Maybe @stuartk does.
Also, Ry Cooder uses a bottleneck, which I guess is like one finger. I have always loved Ry Cooder. He's one of the few musicians whose guitar I recognize without having been told it's him. Same with Stevie Wonder's harmonica. He makes a very distinctive sound. A sentence diversion: I have most of Stevie Wonders albums.
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@audio-b-dog
I believe Django damaged his fingers in a fire.
Richie Havens was playing in an open tuning. Don’t know which one, offhand. As the open strings in that tuning produced a major triad, he was able to play major triads up and down the neck by barreing. . Playing minor triads is not nearly as easy, although completely do-able with a bit of practice. I don’t know whether Havens never learned or whether it was a musical preference but at times he would cover songs that included minor triads (as originally written) and play them with all major triads. BTW, his extended Woodstock performance of "Freedom" was made up on the spot, because the next scheduled act was not ready to go on and the festival organizers asked him to play more after his set was finished. Turned out to be one of the highlights!
Ry Cooder has used open tunings a lot and not just for slide. He’s often played rhythm parts in open D. He also occasionally used a 6 string bass to play rhythm parts! Open tunings can be a lot of fun. BTW, Dylan wrote/played most if not all the songs on Blood On the Tracks in open D.
I will reconstitute the list I sent you via PM here, once I get back from walking the dog.
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@audio-b-dog
This covers a wide range. A few aren’t solely acoustic but all clearly draw from acoustic genres.
Instrumental:
Strength in Numbers: Telluride Sessions
Douglas, Meyer, Barenberg: Skip, Hop and Wobble
Daryl Anger, Mike Marshall: Woodshop
Tony Rice Unit: Devlin
Chris Thile: Not All Who Wander Are Lost
Celtic "plus":
Solas: The Words that Remain
Mick McCauley and Winifred Horan: Serenade (Horan is a very accomplished, Classically trained violinist/fiddler)
Bluegrass "plus":
Newgrass Revival: Hold to a Dream
Sarah Jarosz: Sarah Jarosz
Peter Rowan, Tony Rice: Quartet
Stray Birds: Magic Fire
Steel Wheels: Live at Goose Creek
Old Timey + Jazz
Lindsay Lou and the Flatbellys: Ionia
Folk "plus" :
Birds of Chicago : Live from Space
Aoife ’O Donovan: In the Magic Hour (really uncategorizable -- strong Classical influence)
Bluegrass + Jamband:
Railroad Earth: Last of the Outlaws (check out the suite-like middle portion)
My categories are loose. There may be much here you don’t like. Taste is so subjective. But start with the first group and also check out Edgar Meyer and Mark ’O Connor discographies for more Classically inclined genre mash-ups. Check out Bela Fleck for Jazzier forays. Jerry Douglas solo recordings go in various stylistic directions. Jazz is by no means a constant factor but does show up here and there.
Perhaps you will find one or two titles that draw you into deeper explorations.
Thanks to our fellow jazz thread regulars for indulging us, here.
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No thanks needed. It is interesting and kept the thread alive...
I thank you because i learned a lot...
I am silent as many others but we read the posts ...
Thanks to our fellow jazz thread regulars for indulging us, here.
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@stuartk, mahgister, curiousjim, tyray
@stuartk Thank you for the list. I will dig into it.
@everybody else
This three minute recording of Coleman Hawkins playing Body and Soul, according to the Jazz series, is supposed to be the first time a jazz soloist has established a melody and then left it behind and created a remarkably beautiful improv. Previous jazz masters would always return to the melody.
https://www.google.com/search?q=coleman+hawkins+body+and+soul+1939+youtube&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS945US945&oq=coleman&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgAEEUYJxg7MggIABBFGCcYOzINCAEQLhjHARjRAxiABDIMCAIQLhgKGLEDGIAEMg0IAxAuGK8BGMcBGIAEMgcIBBAAGIAEMgcIBRAAGIAEMgcIBhAAGIAEMgcIBxAAGIAEMgcICBAAGIAEMgcICRAAGI8C0gEKMTI1MThqMGoxNagCCLACAfEFiv39GTJNXdM&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:5e28de6f,vid:zUFg6HvljDE,st:0
Coleman Hawkins must have influenced Coltrane on his improvisation on "Favorite Things," my favorite Coltrane piece. I do not understand the intricacies of music, but this sounds to me that it requires more virtuosity than "Love Supreme," but not as much soul. This is my favorite period in jazz:
https://www.google.com/search?q=john+coltrane+my+favorite+things+youtube&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS945US945&oq=&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgDECMYJxjqAjIJCAAQIxgnGOoCMgkIARAjGCcY6gIyCQgCECMYJxjqAjIJCAMQIxgnGOoCMgkIBBAjGCcY6gIyCQgFECMYJxjqAjIJCAYQIxgnGOoCMgkIBxAjGCcY6gLSAQk1MDQxajBqMTWoAgiwAgHxBU_dwMDkadxG&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:9cf76dde,vid:rqpriUFsMQQ,st:0
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@audio-b-dog
Coleman Hawkins must have influenced Coltrane on his improvisation on "Favorite Things," my favorite Coltrane piece. I do not understand the intricacies of music, but this sounds to me that it requires more virtuosity than "Love Supreme," but not as much soul.
Perhaps @frogman will opine on this topic...
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@stuartK,
Yes, the distinction between soul and virtuosity. On the Jazz series, they talk about Billie Holiday's lack of a strong voice. Her range spanned just a little more than one octave, where other singers might span three octaves and have a more "pure" sounding voice. Holiday's had deep soul.
I have heard that also discussed with classical musicians. Horowitz was much loved by classical music lovers, but he was not supposed to have had the strongest technical abilities.
I heard Itzak Perlman interviewed and he said that the most difficult students to teach are those with the strongest technical ability. It is hard to teach them the emotional aspect of music.
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This distinction between the soul expression and the virtuosity potential are very important...
Billie Holiday as Chet Baker playings and singing has soul way more than virtuosity...
Some had the two... Armstrong and Marian Anderson are natural self made virtuoso but way more master of our souls...
Yes, the distinction between soul and virtuosity. On the Jazz series, they talk about Billie Holiday's lack of a strong voice. Her range spanned just a little more than one octave, where other singers might span three octaves and have a more "pure" sounding voice. Holiday's had deep soul.
I have heard that also discussed with classical musicians. Horowitz was much loved by classical music lovers, but he was not supposed to have had the strongest technical abilities.
I heard Itzak Perlman interviewed and he said that the most difficult students to teach are those with the strongest technical ability. It is hard to teach them the emotional aspect of music.
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@mahgister
I think in all the arts, it's a question of having something to say and choosing an art in which to say it. Again, in the Jazz Series, musicians talk about other musicians telling a story with their music. I think in an art like poetry it is most difficult to say something because words get in the way. How does one get past words by using words?
Back to music and jazz. There are very talented musicians who really don't have much to say, or at least have less to say than the very deep musicians. One might pick up an instrument at a very young age and find that she has great ability, but later, when she has mastered the instrument, she really doesn't have much to say. Whereas Billy Holiday or Chet Baker or Coltrane (who had mastered his instrument) have much they want to say about being human.
We must remember that music is a very old human art. It most probably began with the beginning of humanity. I think some arts explicate, but music congregates. People love to be together "getting" the music as if they are one. It's a tremendously joyous thing to be among people who like yourself can understand this most abstract of art forms. I cannot imagine being human without there being music.
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@mahgister , @audio-b-dog
Interesting and important topic!
Question for both of you: is soulfulness the sole measure of "something worthwhile to say" as opposed to cold displays of technique?
Can there also be music that, for example, is not overtly emotional but delights the mind/ear? Could this still be described as "saying something about being human"?
@audio-b-dog
Seems to me, the fact that poetry utilizes musical elements is what allows it to rise above mere words.
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@mahgister , @audio-b-dog
Interesting and important topic!
Question for both of you: is soulfulness the sole measure of "something worthwhile to say" as opposed to cold displays of technique?
Can there also be music that, for example, is not overtly emotional but delights the mind/ear? Could this still be described as "saying something about being human"?
For sure you are right, we can experience musical meaning through our own soul in contact with vibrating sound sources or instrument which are not mean to convey first pure soul emotion but instead to modify the world and Nature itself : gong, gamelan,Moog synthetiser, African drums or throat singing or harmonic chanting etc...Or any instrument also played just for fun... Anyway it will provoke a reaction in our soul...
But the way some "vibrating sound source" be it a singer body or a violin for example inform us about the soul state of the player or singer may touch us way deeper than some other more easy to enjoy musical sound (music for escalator)...
In the two cases of these vibrating sound source, the timbre of the instrument vibrating or the timbre of the singing voice will touch us...
But in one case we are more informed by our own soul state through our evaluation/perception of one vibrating sound source( escalator music favorise a soul state proper to elicit purchase in the consumers).
In the other case (Billie Holiday or Marian Anderson or Bill Evans) we are also informed by the soul state of the player here or of the singer and not just informed about the timbre state of an instrument (virtuoso)..
Classical music is as visceral as Jazz in his own ways and jazz is as soulful as Classical but in his own ways...it is true also of Eastern music not just western one.
Musical time is not metronomical time nor acoustical time and in classical as in Jazz, the interpretation of what is written by the musicians or their improvisation together, together with or without a director, must create a time dimension of its own, out of physical time (Einstein time) where our soul/body meet rythmically.
Music experience of any cultures is rooted in "timbre" experience and is universal. Our body participation as players or as listeners to the vibrating sound source resonate as a new timing and time dimensions...
Rythms are the root and timbre is the tree whose branchs are many new time dimensions or fruits. Concentration/attention are born in our body, as real or virtual response gestures to the music perceived and/or created by other men or/and by nature.
Attention focus is itself a rythm and a gesture...
The substance of attention is not a void, a waiting time, but a music, a dedicated gesture...
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Seems to me, the fact that poetry utilizes musical elements is what allows it to rise above mere words.
You are right again...
Language lives in multidimensional time scales... (micro-seconds/ years/centuries).
A "word" life extent reveal an inside life (phonems motivated meaningful sounds) the poetic/mimetic dimension and at the higher more conscious scale the syntactical/logical dimension an external life where the meaning evolution is easier to trace (in an etymological dictionary).
At the origin of mankind there is not music on one side and speech on the other side, but one body set of gestures at two scale, the members dance and the throat response which are a direct answer to nature speaking musical gesture. Music is not art at origin but a social survival tool in direct dialogue with Nature.
Before any artist was born, the shaman and magician created sound to affect Nature voice and soul ...
Even today great artist has not forgot that...
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@mahgister, @stuartk,
IMHO, art delights the mind and the soul to varying degrees. Critics and Historians can view historical periods through the lens of art. In the eighteenth century, I think writing and music were more geared toward delighting the mind. If we take a look at the great Haydn, he had a lot of wit in his music meant for the mind. Bach, who preceeded him, was much more soulful.
In music, writing, and the visual arts, the beginning of the nineteenth century is the beginning of the Romantic period. Beethoven writes music extremely soulfully and Romantic composers who followed were writing for the soul more than the head. The visual arts were no longer about Christianity or lords and ladies. We begin to see paintings of peasants and landscape art. That led into the Impressionists and post-Impressionists like Van Gogh who were extremely soulful.
In the 20th century artists begin breaking all the rules. Painters no longer have to paint representationally. Classical music turns from symphonies to tone poems and wild ballets by Stravinsky. Bartok studies folk music to find the soul for his music. Abstract expressionists found ways of expressing deep emotion without any recognizable forms. Jazz music begins and gets deeper and deeper into the soul.
I think artists in the mid-20th century became so deep that people wanted a relief. In the visual arts we find "Pop-Art" which is whmisical and appeals to the mind. Classical music is no longer appealing on a visceral body level. It's pretty much all for the mind. Poetry loses rhyme and meter which move sentiments. It is more aimed at the mind.
I think the best artists in any of the arts are the ones who find a perfect balance, and they are few and far between. Shakespeare is both heart and head. Beethoven is perfectly balanced. Louis Armstrong finds a way to bring blues (which by definition is for the soul) into a structured music. Art critics name Picasso and Matisse as the greatest of the 20th century artists, but I'm not sure.
I think some people prefer the head over the heart and others heart over head. As people understand art more, I think they see the genius in perfect balance--yin and yang.
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I concur with Audio-b-dog post about the necessary polarity balance between heart and mind...
The last century has seen the decline of the West precisely because we had lost this balance key between polarities..
Polarities as heart and mind or yin and yang are not mere dualities or opposition, they interpenetrate into one another ...Coleridge and Owen Barfield wrote about this...
The human body is a third factor embodying the heart and mind this is the key : embodiment...
Our culture with A.I. actually has lost any link between heart and mind because we are virtual ego flying over our own body in a virtual digitalized trance...
Our music industrialized is a merchandise...
We had forgotten our roots and the root of music too...( generally speaking for sure because musical geniuses exist today but not in the collective front part of the theater they are an unrecognized marginalised exploited minority)
I think the best artists in any of the arts are the ones who find a perfect balance, and they are few and far between. Shakespeare is both heart and head. Beethoven is perfectly balanced. Louis Armstrong finds a way to bring blues (which by definition is for the soul) into a structured music. Art critics name Picasso and Matisse as the greatest of the 20th century artists, but I’m not sure.
I think some people prefer the head over the heart and others heart over head. As people understand art more, I think they see the genius in perfect balance--yin and yang.
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@mahgister, stuartk,
I think what is happening is societies around the world, including the U.S., is terrifying. People get in touch with their bodies for violence. I agree with @mahgister in regards to the use of his word embodiment. Girls and women have a much easier time with their bodies and sharing emotional responses. And that would take me back to what I'm writing about.
I feel like three or four of us have taken over this thread "Jazz Afficiandos," talking about a lot of things related to music without boundaries. I was wondering if anyone is interested in starting a new thread talking about music without genre lines, and other things related to music. For me, it is a primal topic.
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Start it and i will participate...
Here it is supposed to be jazz recommendation and reflections ...
I feel like three or four of us have taken over this thread "Jazz Afficiandos," talking about a lot of things related to music without boundaries. I was wondering if anyone is interested in starting a new thread talking about music without genre lines, and other things related to music. For me, it is a primal topic.
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@mahgister
After a fair amount of study, I believe that art--all art, including cave paintings, music, bodily adornment, was indistinguishable from spiritual practice when Homo Sapiens evolved from previous Homo species (erectus, etc.) For the earliest people they were one. And if I could PM you, I'd give you a quick argument on why I believe the first shamans were women.
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Start the new thread...
I prefer discussing in a thread publicly not by mail...
I think already that the first shaman were women...
I read Gimbutas... Among others...
The best thinker i know about the consciousness history and evolution is Jean Gebser...
His works is astounding and influential but in an undergrounded way because of amplitude over all fields :
" the ever present Origin"...
A masterpiece...
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