Jazz for aficionados
prysoWas that Herbie Mann album where he played bass clarinet called sultry Serenade? I have that album on a four album 2 Disc cd set where he plays some bass clarinet.. I think there's another person on that album who plays bass clarinet. if there if there is another disc where he played bass clarinet I'd like to buy it if it's available. Let me know. |
I missed the I missed the first 20 minutes of miles PBS special last night but saw the rest.Although I don't care for his recorded output after 1980 I have to say that I saw his band the year before he died and the performance he put on was terrific and he was in fine shape. The lighting, found, song selection, pacing, and overall performance were top-notch. quite honestly nothing really too new in this documentary that I didn't already know. This special showed all sides of miles, warts and all. I could understand if some people would be turned off. He beat his wife / girlfriends and was a drug abuser for a large part of his life. but for me it's the musical Legacy that he left behind that counts. is he the greatest Jazz Trumpeter? I don't think so. But I came away with a better understanding or his ability to convey emotion in his music.And this to me is the most important thing an artist can do. |
nsp, you caused me to do a little research and I'm glad I did. That album was "great ideas of Western mann" and he played bass clarinet on all numbers. Now I'm really bummed it disappeared from my collection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47RnXpVEvFw |
Isn’t Herbie Mann primarily known as a flutist? In the late 60’s he had recording sessions with a few outstanding guitarists. Larry Corryell, Sonny Sharock and, believe it or not, Duane Allman. The bass clarinet definitely adds an interesting sound into the music although I think he was a "supreme master" on the flute Great album cover for Herbie Mann plays Afro Cuban: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=httelW_hkpU |
Yes, from recordings I'm familiar with Mann played mainly flute. Frog might jump in with his usual musical expertise but I believe it may be more common for reed players to master more than one instrument that those in other instrument groups. Many tenor sax players also performed on soprano for example (similar fingering?). In the case of Herbie I believe he played regular clarinet as well a bass clarinet while focusing mainly on flute. Certainly that was his focus as his career developed. |
Just finished listening to the Milt Jackson Quintet Live at the Village Gate. recorded 9 December 1963. Awesome mastering on the CD. Label is Fantasy released in 1994. Not a bad song on the disc.
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Milt Jackson Quintet Live at the Village Gate: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=milt+jackson+quintet+live+at+the+village+gate |
Here is another Milt Jackson disc I ordered with Jimmy Heath on the sax: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfNB7Twid3Y |
Asking a favor of you jazz gurus.... I have been enjoying Chick Corea’s Three Quartets since Frogman mentioned it some time ago. I’d appreciate recommendations of similar compositions/recordings. I’ve not found The All Music Guide’s suggestions of similar albums too helpful. It’s a challenge to convey what about Three Quartets is so appealing. The best I can do: - It has a certain "gravitas" and despite lots of room for improvisation seems highly structured with a quasi-classical feel; - The compositions are somewhat abstract (nothing you’ll be whistling in the shower) yet accessible; - There is ample complexity that rewards repeated listening; - Musicianship and sound quality are superb. - Corea's Time Warp is enjoyable for what seem to be similar traits. Hoping these give some clue as to what I’d like to find. (Listening right now to Thelonius Monk Quartet w/JohnColtrane at Carnegie Hall...it has moments that get close.) Thanks in advance for any thought you put into this. |
Since all of the so-called 'aficionados' have quit the thread, or, are off somewhere pouting, this is the ideal time to slip in a little blues. After all, it is Saturday night in the delta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jcGY7NbaQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzr1Rfn-P4Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc0bkkKFhfI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oica5jG7FpU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd7b1Ye6Oc0 Cheers |
Ghost, do you have the original release or the CD reissue? The CD reissue contains four tracks recorded during the same sessions, but not released on the original. My LP includes only the “Three Quartets”. I bought the CD for the extra cuts. Great stuff! https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mp49RsKE5LKk65-YV8RPDW6LBkosPN1PE |
Hi Frogman...I have the reissue with the extra tracks you mention. One nice thing about CD is being able to play Quartets 2 & 3 in the proper order. I’m hoping my attempted description might generate some ideas about music with a similar "vibe". BTW - I thought enough of this music to also buy it in vinyl. |
When Herbie Mann is mentioned, there are two albums that he recorded with Bobby Jaspar (also kind of overlooked musician)and few other greats that I would like to post again... Flute Flight https://youtu.be/l_baETClbqA Flute Souffle https://youtu.be/o7LwCm0iXR4 |
********* I’m hoping my attempted description might generate some ideas about music with a similar "vibe"********** If you are looking at strictly quartets with one brass instrument added to the standard piano - bass - drums trio give the Cedar Walton "Eastern Rebellion" albums a try. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuYeeMcyCIk |
****the style of music performed is the more critical consideration******* Then may I suggest a trio session led by Chick Corea: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chick+corea+now+he+sings+now+he+sobs Check out his rendition of Thelonious Monk's "Pannonika" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRqcobYcDoc |
prysoThanks for the posting of the Herbie Mann bass clarinet album . enjoyed listening. I also liked the trumpeter on the session, Jack Sheldon. I think he was primarily a West Coast player, having done sessions with Harold land , art pepper and Shelly manne, among others. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRVvP1IcbqY |
pjw Enjoyed the Herbie Mann Latin video you posted thanks. With regards to Jimmy Heath I have a double album live art farmer session where Jimmy Heath is the only other horn player. It was recorded in 1967 and released on CBS records . Don't know if it's available on CD .here is a cut on YouTube I found: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDkXPZFV6wM |
pjw - Thanks for your further efforts on my behalf. I was somewhat familiar with Corea’s "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs". Will have to re-visit it based on your suggestion. Trio-wise, I’ve spent time with his first "Trilogy" recording (Christian McBride and Brian Blade). This is impressive music-wise (though, for me, not all of it is equally "gripping") and sound-quality-wise, especially given it is made up of live recordings. The preference for quartet or even quintet format is based on the greater variety of "voices" available for solos. Regarding, "style" or (more correctly, genre) I enjoy post-bop much more than the traditional jazz standards. Thanks again. Does Keith Jarrett get talked about much here? |
Awsome Blues clips, Rok. Blues royalty. Thanks for that. Re recent talk on the bass clarinet, flute, Herbie Mann and pryso’s request for commentary: A little known fact is that Adolph Sax, the creator of the saxophone was, if not solely responsible for the design of the bass clarinet, the main contributor to it’s design as it is known today. This, BEFORE the creation of the saxophone which Sax invented as his answer to the demand from composers for an instrument that could be a sonic “bridge” between the woodwinds and the brass in an orchestra. The design of all instruments has evolved (and continues to evolve) over time and the first examples were often very crude and even impractical for actual performance. The first known significant use of the bass clarinet by a composer was in about 1830 or so. The saxophone, the most recent major instrument invention has probably seen the least number of major design revisions. The design was patented in 1846. It is true that in Jazz and other popular music saxophone players have often “doubled” on other members of the woodwind family. This has been (and is) either by choice as when a player is looking for a new instrumental “voice” as a soloist; or, by necessity as in the case of a player who is a member of an ensemble in which the composer of the music wants the wider tonal color palette that the various woodwinds offer. Clarinet has always been the most common “double” for saxophone players. In some respects the two instruments are the most similar, but in other respects the most different. The flute as a “doubling” instrument would come later. While the flute has a fingering system that is almost identical to the saxophone’s the fact that, unlike the clarinet, it is not a reed instrument means that it requires an entirely different method of tone production making it a significant challenge for saxophone players who want to double on it. It should be noted that some saxophone players, especially those who go on to become significant Jazz soloists, choose to not double on other instruments; or, when success as soloists allows them the luxury to focus on only one instrument. It’s a personal artistic choice and some players find their musical identity in the variety of “voices” that doubling offers. While all woodwind instruments pose their own unique difficulties, bass clarinet is uniquely difficult for most saxophone players. First, like the soprano (regular) clarinet, the fingering system is very different from the saxophone’s. There is a certain logic to the fingering system of the saxophone which has helped a great deal in promoting certain stylistic “saxophonisms” that a listener would, generally speaking, recognize as something rather unique to the style of most Jazz saxophone players. This logic makes it a very facile instrument which allows the lighting speed musical runs and patterns that one hears from players like Bird and Trane. The clarinets not only lack this kind of logic in the fingering system, but also lack the much more “free” quality that the player experiences when blowing into a saxophone. The bass clarinet offers a lot more resistance to the player blowing air into it, especially in the middle and high registers. It is also a bit@h to keep the instrument in good working order due to a key mechanism that is more complicated than the saxophone’s. It was Eric Dolphy who blew it (pun) open for those wanting to play Jazz on the bass clarinet. He was the first to demonstrate that it was an instrument that could be played with the same level of expression as the saxophone. Up until then (and for the most part still today) most players wanting to play Jazz on the bass clarinet, IMO, relied to some extent on the novelty aspect of the instrument while not really saying anything truly new or unique on the instrument. To a much lesser degree, some of the same can be said of the flute. Few Jazz players have achieved the level of mastery on the flute that they themselves or other players achieved on the saxophone. That Eric Dolphy was able to achieve that level of mastery on flute as well as bass clarinet and saxophone is remarkable. I have to admit that I have never been a huge Herbie Mann fan. This is personal opinion only and admittedly colored by the fact that I play the instruments discussed. The music itself can be a favorite of some listeners and a subjective call. I like a lot of it, but I love very little of it. The bass clarinet record, while interesting in that it is bass clarinet, leaves me feeling like the playing is kind of insipid. For me, it’s kind of my reaction to a lot of scat singing. If the scatting doesn’t at least approach what can be done by a great instrumentalist, then what’s the point? His flute is a different story and I like a lot of his playing even if I am not always crazy about the material. A couple of favorite Jazz flute players: The great Joe Farrell: https://youtu.be/lnd45moc7EQ https://youtu.be/sEhQTjgoTdU Hubert Laws: https://youtu.be/KisK2wqQ-7I (On piccolo and alto flute) https://youtu.be/2NaXlmDSDcw And, of course, Dolphy. If Coltrane’s “Giant Steps” would become a litmus test for tenor players and what was possible on the instrument (up till then), Dolphy’s “God Bless The Child” would become the prime example of what is possible on the bass clarinet in Jazz: https://youtu.be/yOf-sRYI_XM |
My only Herbie Mann CD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WkbHr9zEIo Have 'Memphis Underground' on LP. Never thought of him as a serious Jazz player. One of the many that came in and out of Jazz over the years, as fads came and went. Cheers |
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Love Dolphy. Took me years. More Dolphy. I know he's in there somewhere because the liner notes say so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OCrWScxtmA Cheers |
Thanks frog, I expected you would come through with good information. I'd wondered why the flute was included with the reed instruments since it doesn't have a reed. But that was my mistake, it belongs to the broader woodwind family. For instrument families the real confusion comes with the piano. Some define it as a string instrument while others label it percussion. Guess it can be either. After listening to that Herbie Mann album again after many years absence I think I understand why I no longer have it. I liked the "sound" of the bass clarinet, but agree the playing was kind of insipid. That's interesting that something can sound pleasant, meaning nice to hear, but not all that enjoyable or stimulating, meaning I want to hear it again, if that makes any sense. Yes, Dolphy's examples are a whole other ballgame. |
pjw81563 I've had more time to listen to Cedar Walton's Eastern Rebellion. I'm very impressed. Virtuoso playing. George Coleman's work on Naima is incredible. I'd like to see a transcript of his solo(s) on that...probably look like a blur of black across the ledger lines. ("Yes", I realize it's a Coltrane composition.) Also like very much Coleman's composition "5/4 Thing". That's a good example of the kind of music I'd like to find more of. Thanks again. |
I had planned on going on a permanent "hiatus", but those plans have changed; after listening to some of the best music that I've ever heard in my entire life, the least I can do is respond to it. Mary_jo, I had forgotten how good "Mr. Magic" by Grover Washington sounded; maybe that's because 76 was a magic time for me. It is not written that I have to live in the present, and I wont. As long as there is music that can take me back to a better time, I shall live in that time. Never heard of "Nino Ferrer" but I liked his music, and I would like to blow that album cover up to life size. Michelle Gurevich; what planet is she from? It seems that I went there in a dream; her music reminds me of a time when there were places called "head shops" that smelled of many different kinds of incense, and had wild and unusual "psychedelic" posters on the wall, plus a multitude of pipes to choose from which to smoke the rarest blends of Turkish tobacco. I absolutely must have some of her music. |
Pjw, I've got a ton of Herbie Mann, he runs the gamut in music; I must say that I like his "Afro centric" albums best, although he has a lot of other music I like as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tWAEPllOZc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw0ckq36BiA |
