rok2id
What hype?....many jazz aficionados seem to get "stuck" in the 1940-1970 era sax players and never give the up and coming modern players a listen. Sure I agree that Coltrane, Rollins, Dexter Gordon, Sonny Stitt et al were masters of their profession but besides a handful like Lou Donaldson (who I have seen 7 times), Wayne Shorter (2 times) they are all gone now and I don't think Rollins can play live anymore. Give the newbies a listen you may be impressed.
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
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One of my favorite “newbies”: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=obKaDCZitNs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kEupMJujIVY |
Allow me to toss Gilbert's "newbie" hat into the ring. He will be leading a sextet recreating all from KOB at a Symphony Hall in San Diego near the end of the month. Yes, I have tickets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7YfNVrg5QQ |
frogman +1 Seamus Blake As you like Brazilian singers have you heard Marta Gomez ? pjw81563 On the JC cd's I like the" Live at the Blue Note" best. But it's pricey...$24 on Amazon. May look for it elsewhere. A "newbie" I like: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OfkksJjFmYg http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JeiwfeIABTA |
frogman check out this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFLjQ1I408 I was at this show 3 1/2 years back and it was no let down!! JC, Pharoah Sanders and Odean Pope http://www.bluenote.net/newyork/schedule/moreinfo.cgi?id=12258 bluesy41 I have seen Redman and Garrett numerous times. One of the perks of living 1 hour from NYC with all them jazz venues. I was backstage with sweet papa Lou Donaldson a few years back shooting the s**t for an hour. Lou loves boxing and baseball so we had plenty to discuss. He said he was at the Polo Grounds when Bobby Thompson hit the "shot heard round the world" |
Lou Donaldson and Dr. Lonnie Smith the Hammond B3 master. By the way Lou is also a good comedian! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r6M0Pl-KqE Lou use to play all the time with Lonnie until about 10 years back. I guess he went on stage here to support the Blue Note 75 years anniversary. I asked him why he don’t gig with Lonnie anymore and he said Lonnie is nuts. I have seen Lonnie 6 times and he never disappoints. |
frogman buy the James Carter cd "Out of Nowhere" its live and the song "Highjack" alone is worth the 25 bucks. Here is a review of the album on Amazon that is spot on about JC's critics: This is probably a four star CD, but I'm giving it five in order to compensate for all the critics of James Carter who don't seem to know what they are listening to. This is JAZZ, which, my friends, is built on the tradition of individual virtuosity, spontaneity, free improvisation and group interplay ("blowin'," "chops," "blowin' sessions," "jam sessions," "saxophone duels," "trading fours," etc.) One-upmanship and proving your chops have always been essential aspects of jazz improvisation. Louis Armstrong, Dizzie Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Sonny Rollins, etc., etc., etc. were all show-offs and exhibitionists (and all the other names that are intended as insults to Carter). Now everyone agrees that Carter is the most talented and virtuosic jazz performer alive today, but somehow this isn't good enough. It's not enough for him to be the Louis Armstrong of our generation, but he has to be the Duke Ellington and Billy Strayhorn as well. The objection that Carter lacks a unified and coherent style or musical sensibility strikes me as both hollow (lack of unity and coherence IS his style) and, in a postmodern world, dated. And to those who cite a lack of feeling and emotion in his playing, I'm not sure what to say to such vague and subjective criticisms, other than that they might be confused by the wide range of feeling in his playing. |
James Carter: Being great is not easy. The greats just make it look easy. A person could earn a living just placing bets on the contents of a serious Jazz Fan's collection. We all know, at a minimum, what Miles, Trane, Mingus etc......... albums / CDs, that any Aficionado, worthy of the name, would have on his self. Can the same be said about James Carter? Remember: The Frogman's first law -- If you are unknown or under known, there is usually a good reason why. Bill Parcells - - "You are, what your record says you are". Keeping these in mind will answer all questions. Very good player, but not in the same rank of those you listed. Cheers |
rok2id The majority of jazz aficionados like I said up thread are "stuck" in the old days listening to the greats of the 1940 -1970 era. Your statement above simplifies my response. Name ONE sax player today that you think is as good as the old timers? Name ONE trumpet player? ONE piano player? ONE bass player? ONE drummer? I for example have 20 plus Art Blakey cd’s. Jeff Tain Watts, a modern drummer has a total of 5-6 cd’s recorded under his own name. Does that make Watts inferior to Blakey? Times change. Back in the day when jazz was popular the musicians were constantly in the studios recording. Miles Davis once recorded 3 albums in less the a week to finish his contract with Prestige Records to accept an offer from Columbia. Its not quantity that counts but quality. I have about 50 Coltrane cd’s counting box sets and 75 Miles cd’s counting box sets. Name ONE player in todays time that will ever put out so much material. No doubt in my mind Trane was the best with Parker,Rollins, Hawkins, Getz, Pepper et al grouped behind Trane in no particular order. But JC could definitely hold his own with many of the old timers including Sonny Stitt, Jackie Mclean, Pharoah Sanders, and yes, even Dexter Gordon. Likewise Stanley Clarke could hold his own with Charles Mingus on bass to name a modern bass representative. Jeremy Pelt and Roy Hargrove come very close to Lee Morgan, Freddie Hubbard, Kenny Dorham and Donald Byrd on trumpet Plus I get to see all of these guys live and is that not the best way to listen to jazz? |
Pjw, ...'No reason to get excited The thief he kindly spoke There are many here among us Who feel that life is but a joke '... 'When Jazz ruled the world' article https://www.udiscovermusic.com/in-depth-features/when-jazz-ruled-the-world/?utm_source=ka&utm_me... |
pjw, thanks for the recommendation and clips; I enjoyed them. I heard JC live at the Village Vanguard early on and enjoyed his playing. He is even more impressive now. No question that JC could hold his own with some of the old timers. In fact, I believe he is a traditionalist at heart more than anything. When he plays he evokes the style of “old timers” like Arnett Cobb, Don Byas and Hawkins with that highly stylized and very robust tenor sound. What is unique about him is that he combines that style and sound with “techniques” on the saxophone that hadn’t been explored nor mastered to that degree by the old timers. He has great control of the extreme high register and it’s almost odd to hear playing in that range combined with the “old timer” tone approach. He double and triple tongues; practically unheard of back then. He growls and slap tongues. He plays with a tremendous amount of exuberance which, as you point out, is considered by some to be merely “showing off”. I’m not quite sure what showing off means, but that level of exuberance practically at all times is why I am mixed about his playing; eventhough he is a very exciting player and certainly knows how to appeal to an audience. A lot to be said for that. I like JC; a lot. I just wish he would do a lot less of that stuff. Moreover, I don’t believe he has the fluidity and command of complex harmony that some of the “newbies” have. A lot of what he plays is relatively simple harmonically and he is not the kind of player that can rip through “Giant Steps” the way that a player like Eric Alexander can. Different players bring different things to the table. I enjoy most a less exuberant and more harmonically disciplined way of playing. Still, I like that a player like JC is keeping alive a style that is not always screaming “Coltrane!”. Another “newbie” with a sound that evokes some of the old timers, but with a modern harmonic concept: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4gTzj1EicAU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8wnETzFQ2ok https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YebOyztBhwA |
Joe Lovano is another example of an extremely talented modern sax player. I had a chance to see him several times but something always came up. I have a few of his recordings. I saw Eric Alexander at Smoke Jazz Club NYC with Jimmy Cobb on drums about 6 years ago. Cobb signed my Kind of Blue cd plus 2 of his. Alexander was great that night running through some old standards. I have a handful of his recordings too. That night was the old school Cobb who played on KOB with the new school players. Jazz still lives!! |
By the way, Art Pepper who I mentioned above is one of my favorite "old timers" I have about 20 cd's of his including the legendary comeback box set at the Village Vangaurd. He was tormented by heroin addiction (as were a lot of jazz musicians at one time or another). I highly recommend his autobiography "Straight Life" its one of the best book I have ever read. He came in 2nd to Charlie Parker as downbeat magazines best alto player like 4 years in a row. I believe he even won it one year when Parker was in a rut from the heroin. https://www.amazon.com/Straight-Life-Story-Art-Pepper/dp/0306805588/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&a... He was strung-out as he put it, as he ran out of dope and forgot the photographer was coming that morning but he pulled himself together for the session and the photo on the cover is from that session!! |
*****The majority of jazz aficionados like I said up thread are "stuck" in the old days listening to the greats of the 1940 -1970 era.***** I plead guilty. I am also STUCK in the past when I listen to The Blues and Classical Music. Still stuck in the Mississippi delta with Muddy Waters and B.B. King et al. And for some reason I just can’t get past Mozart, Beethoven, Bach and folks like that. Hell, I still listen, by choice, to Motown and doo-wop. I wonder why that is? ****Name ONE trumpet player? ONE piano player? ONE bass player? ONE drummer?***** I think you are confusing, mastering the ability to play an instrument, with making a contribution to the art form called Jazz. Current day players are better ’schooled’ in playing music and mastering their instrument. *****Likewise Stanley Clarke could hold his own with Charles Mingus on bass to name a modern bass representative.***** No one thinks ’Bass player’ when Mingus’ name is mentioned.. He was so much more than that. Ellington: Piano player? *****Jeremy Pelt and Roy Hargrove come very close to Lee Morgan, Freddie Hubbard, Kenny Dorham and Donald Byrd on trumpet***** Surely you jest!! No one, and I mean No one, can touch Wynton Marsalis playing the Trumpet. Greatest Jazz trumpet players? The list would have to be very long for him to be on it. But, he is so much more to Jazz than a trumpet player. It’s not about how well you can play the instrument, it’s about what contribution did you make to the art form. Miles once said, there is nothing a person can do on trumpet that Louis Armstrong has not done already. This means, making a significant contribution gets harder as time goes on. No one is stuck. We are there by choice. Cheers |
frog, and others in this discussion, what qualifies as a "newbie"? Some of this seems like anyone still alive! ;^) One of those Lovano links was 23 years old! He was born in 1952!! For me, and this is arbitrary, I'd say someone not yet past their 20s and who has not been on the national stage for more than about five years. |
Good question and I personally agree with your criteria. However, as concerns this particular discussion, since it was pjw who first used the term and who suggested that aficionados were stuck with players from the 1940-1970 era ........ **** many jazz aficionados seem to get "stuck" in the 1940-1970 era sax players and never give the up and coming modern players a listen. Sure I agree that Coltrane, Rollins, Dexter Gordon, Sonny Stitt et al were masters of their profession but besides a handful like Lou Donaldson (who I have seen 7 times), Wayne Shorter (2 times) they are all gone now and I don’t think Rollins can play live anymore. Give the newbies a listen you may be impressed. **** |
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"No one thinks ’Bass player’ when Mingus’ name is mentioned.. He was so much more than that. Ellington: Piano player?" Now if you include the word influential when describing great jazz artist I see your point. Ellington, Mingus, and Thelonious Monk, who you left out (surely you jest) were highly creative and influential composers in which you cannot say that about all jazz musicians. Bird played mostly standards but he was one of the greatest all time with that alto. Duke Ellington had to be creative and influential. He had a club to run and shows to put on every night. Again, different eras. So yes, I understand what you mean but only a small percentage of the "old school" jazz artists were unique, creative, influential, ect. The ratio of standards/originals that most of the older jazz artists had on their albums was the same back then as it is today. As far as jazz artists post 1970 - Do they sell a lot or records? No. They love what they do and keep jazz alive for those few of us that still know what it takes to be jazz artist. They also do way more session work as hired guns then the old timers. It helps them get by. The most influential musician of all time,with just 4 released studio albums, who was also the best on his instrument was Jimi Hendrix IMHO. But your point was made and taken. |
pjw I second your recommendation of Art Pepper's "Straight Life" autobiography. Very candid & open about his life, warts and all. He WAS a huge drug addict and unfortunately, due to prison and drugs was off the scene for about 15 years. What a waste. We are lucky he made a comeback and was creative for the last few years of his life. Very powerful emotional player in those later years. You were lucky to see Jimmy Cobb live I am not sure if he plays live concerts anymore. If you don't have them I recommend Cobb's cds "Cobb's Corner" & "Jazz in The Key of Blue" with Hargrove. I think frogman stated it very well in his post : "Different players bring different things to the table" . I say if one person likes an artist and another doesn't so be it. As players bring different things to the table so do we, as consumers . We all hear differently , have different life experiences and come from different backgrounds. I feel there is room for all musicians. If I don't like it I don't listen to it or buy it. I am always looking for new jazz artists/groups and that is one of the reasons I come to this site. If it turns out that the artist is someone who recorded before 1970 and I have overlooked him/her than that is still a plus. BTW i've seen Stanley Clarke live and he can play the hell out of the upright bass But I do agree with rok2id about Charles Mingus. I do not think bass player but I do think composer,& bandleader . Cheers |
Gorgeous day here in Central Texas. Stopped by Barnes & Noble to check out the latest music magazines. When I looked at the latest issue of Downbeat, I thought they had received the issue destined for Eastern Europe instead of the USA. Not a recognizable name in sight. I guess it is all passing me by. Oh well, I was here, and young, during the best and most creative part. Jammed to this: Love the trumpet playing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojAUGPZ39Dk Cheers |
pjw, I believe this was the second time you referenced current (newbie?) artists not selling many records. "As far as jazz artists post 1970 - Do they sell a lot or records? No." Well, I've read that not even rock or pop artists make much from record (including CD) sales anymore. Some of that may be due to poor contracts, but I suspect most is because of the decline in software sales, meaning actual LPs and CDs. And apparently payment from downloads is miniscule. The decent money nowadays comes from touring. The whole scenario has changed so much in the last 10 to 20 years, let alone going back to 1970. I do see a lot of interest by and for young (<30) jazz artists locally which pleases me. Whether any of them become influential, well, only time will tell. |
Did someone ask about Young Lions? Other than Gilbert (who was their producer) everyone here is under 20. How about a 13 year-old bass player?!? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rw9S2VQ1pU&list=PLvAKXY9HywaQTz-CRd2hJJ1wII61u9SpJ |
BTW i've seen Stanley Clarke live and he can play the hell out of the upright bass But I do agree with rok2id about Charles Mingus. I do not think bass player but I do think composer,& bandleader . Agreed nsp. I saw the Return to Forever reunion tour about 10 years back with Clarke on bass of course plus 2 more x at the Iridium and Blue Note. He can compose and does have many originals but he is no Charles Mingus when it comes to composing/band leader! |
Witness for the defense re Clarke's upright bass skills... Corea, Clarke, White - Forever Track 1 On Green Dolphin Street. Patience rewarded beginning at around the 4:20 mark... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X88kOfVzQk |
When I posted this brother Clarke a year or so ago, everyone started cries of outrage, boo!!!, hiss!!!! etc....... even worst than with the Bey Sisters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en6kmiX0SDc Now he is beloved by all. Go figure. Cheers |
Blame it on my youth, but I have just to say, that biggest difference between 'old' and 'new' jazz, for me, its not in the skills or creativity that 'new' jazz generation has, but in the 'sound'. For what reason, it seems to me that I could tell, even if they would play note on note, what is 'new' and what is'old' sound. Do I need to tell how much I prefer the 'old' one? |
pjw I saw Stanley Clarke in the 90's at Westbury Music Fair when he was touring with Al Dimeola and Jean- Luc Ponty. Great concert , top shelf talent who interacted well with plenty of solo space for all. Nice article on history of saxophones in Jazz Times. BTW -flipping through Amazon I found 2 JC discs I want- "Chasing The Gypsy" & " The Real Quietstorm". Ghosthouse- I was not aware of the live reunion discs by RTF-nice stuff. Thanks pryso If there are more 15 yr. olds like those in Gilbert's group then the future of jazz is in good hands. The singer's scatting was good but would have liked to heard her actually sing a song. J Pelt & J Jackson http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zv8jIwydR_E |
**** When I posted this brother Clarke a year or so ago, everyone started cries of outrage, boo!!!, hiss!!!! etc....... even worst than with the Bey Sisters. Now he is beloved by all. Go figure. **** I recently mentioned how much I love Elis Regina for the absence of affectation in her singing. Rachel Ferrell’s singing is the opposite of that. I seem to recall that the issue back then was not Clarke; it was Ferrell herself with her over the top vocal histrionics. From the archives: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/jazz-for-aficionados?page=39 Also in that page from the “archives” can be found commentary about how musical tastes change over time. So true. Back then (the archives) this comment (re Wynton) would have been unthinkable: **** Greatest Jazz trumpet players? The list would have to be very long for him to be on it. **** There was a time that ANY criticism directed at Wynton’s jazz playing was met with a lot of resistance. Rok, not picking on you, but just using this to make a point about the “old vs new” (old timers vs newbies) issue and that of changing tastes. If anyone of us thinks that our individual assessment of a jazz artist’s ultimate worth or standing in the grand scheme of things (overall history of the music) is not influenced to some degree by what that that artist REPRESENTS in ways other than strictly musical I think we would be kidding ourselves. **** But he is so much more to jazz than a trumpet player **** Exactly. As nsp pointed out: **** We all hear differently , have different life experiences and come from different backgrounds. **** Music from different eras represent different things to each of us due to the above. A certain era in the music’s history may give us a sense of nostalgia. It may remind us of what our parents listened to (could be a negative or positive) or what was going on in society as a whole at the time which may be something that has special significance to us. We all know that jazz is sadly less popular today than it was in the past. However, I submit that if one considers today’s level of overall activity in jazz to that during its heyday, the number of players making “significant contributions” (to quote Rok again) to the music and who are pushing the envelope of its evolution is, percentage-wise, about the same as it ever was. As has been pointed out many times jazz evolves whether we like where it’s going or not. Some of us like where it’s going and some of us don’t; this based on the factors mentioned above. Nothing wrong with not liking where it’s going or with being “stuck” (I don’t mind) in a certain prior era. I think the important thing is to not be dismissive of the current era and its great players as necessarily “inferior” to those of the past when in many cases it is a matter of their being different and appealing to a different sensibility. Imo, to not appreciate and embrace this simple fact is, ironically, to not understand something very basic about what the art form is about. Players like Stanley Clarke, Chick Corea, Joe Lovano and others are phenomenal musicians who in some ways are or have taken the music to places that the greats from the past never did nor could have and I frankly don’t see the point in always comparing the new to the old at the expense of appreciating what it is that the new are bringing to the table. Again, re the issue of what players REPRESENT: **** Miles once said, there is nothing a person can do on trumpet that Louis Armstrong has not done already. This means, making a significant contribution gets harder as time goes on. **** It probably does get harder, but it continues to happen. However, Miles’ admiration for and understanding of Armstrong’s huge contribution as one of the grandaddies of jazz and all that this REPRESENTS caused him to utter one of the biggest bits of hyperbole ever. We all know how great Louis was. His playing was like a distillation of all that is what jazz is ultimately all about: telling a story with music and he did it with a simplicity (“absence of affectation”) and swagger that still sets the standard for some. But, the truth is that there is much that players have “done on the trumpet” since Louis that he could not even get close to doing. He couldn’t have played bebop like Dizzy, nor the blues like Lee Morgan nor abstract like Miles himself. It sounds nice to suggest that he did, but it’s not so. Music reflects the time of its creation and in many ways it was a simpler time back then. Rok, send me the royalties bill for quoting you so many times 😊 |
alex, I agree. We tend to love what we grew up with. That rationale was identified for the resurgent interest in muscle cars back in the '80s, those who had been teenagers were 20 years older and making enough $ to afford the dreams of their youth. My interest in jazz developed during the late '50s and '60s, so no surprise that is what I still love best. At the same time, I try to be open to what fallowed, right up to the present. nsp, I agree about the young singer, I had the same reaction. |
Jazz is not the only genre in trouble. I think they all might be. Listen to this woman. She is not talking about Jazz, but she is talking about Jazz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5AKiC7QLV4&app=desktop Just substitute the names with Jazz greats. Cheers |
frog, I like this one better (but again I can blame it on my youth) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcZUPDMXzJ8 Speaking of which, this is admittedly not PC, but as a youngster it was my favorite song in the movie and I loved it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v2exWrsGOc |
We love music and it makes no difference the era. I love Mingus, Ron Carter, Paul Chambers, Ray Brown, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t feel that my brother Christian McBride isnt the greatest upright bass player I’ve ever heard. Pay homage and respect for our legends but give love to the new musician who have to fight like hell to keep this dying art form alive. And I agree Stanley Clarke is a musical savant and got to see him at the legendary Jazz Alley in Seattle and he absolutely brought the house down on the upright bass. If you get a chance check out a new young lion Mr. Ben Williams. Cheers |
nsp- "I second your recommendation of Art Pepper's "Straight Life" autobiography" His drug addiction antics, although they seem funny when reading the book, were actually very sad. Stan Getz' autobiography also is filled with dope antics. Getz never did any significant jail time like Pepper did. San Quentin and hanging out with gangsters while serving years all in Art Peppers book! frogman- "Music reflects the time of its creation and in many ways it was a simpler time back then" Just quoting your last sentence that was an overall excellent post frogman. pryso- " My interest in jazz developed during the late '50s and '60s, so no surprise that is what I still love best. At the same time, I try to be open to what fallowed, right up to the present I did not start listening to jazz until 2002-3, when I turned 40 but of course my first few years I collected the material of all the "old school greats" then started hitting the jazz clubs in NYC and really digged most of the bands I saw so I like the old and new equally. bluesy41-"but that doesn’t mean that I don’t feel that my brother Christian McBride isnt the greatest upright bass player I’ve ever heard. I saw McBride once I believe he was playing bass at a Jeff tain Watts show I saw about 8 years ago. It would be hard to choose either him or Stanley Clarke over one or the other. I saw Esperanza Spalding at the Apollo Theater and she plays electric and upright bass awesome. She is almost at the same level as some of the male greats plus she can sing really well. And don't forget about Jaco Pastorious or Victor Wooten when talking about bass players!! |
Jafant I was curious about your impressions of the new Miles Davis/John Coltrane The Final Tour. How are the solos and what about production/ sound quality. It seems that I have read Coltrane had already left Miles but agreed to stay on for this tour. I was wondering did Coltranes style already evolve tothe point where he didn't fit Miles concept ?Was the music taken from various dates or from one concert? I have a 2 fer lp set from Stockholm in 1960 and do not know if this latest lp is just a rehash of that concert. Anyone else h ave any impressions/thoughts? |