I can see how the dazzling, uplifting Armstrong would be the progenitor solar body and the nocturnal, melancholic Baker, the moon, but I'm not sure about Miles as Jupiter. Perhaps because Miles went through so many stylistic shifts, I'm finding it challenging to see what remained constant and characterize whatever that essence was, metaphorically. He was creatively restless; always looking forward to the next phase. I'm not sure what his capacity for reinvention suggests in terms of astronomnical phenomenon. He was of course one of the greatest band-leaders, in terms of magnetically bringing together shifting constellations of highly gifted players into his orbit or gravitational field... so many bright bodies... Coltrane, Hancock, Carter, Williams, Shorter, Holland, Corea, McLaughlin, Jarrett, etc. Perhaps if I was more scientifically astute, your analogy would be clearer to me.
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I had a friend when I was in high school who introduced me to jazz. Art Tatum was the first jazz player I heard and then I picked up an Ahmed Jamal album. Ahmed played more for a jazz bar than Tatum. I just watched a piece on Tatum on the "Jazz" series and he was amazing. He blew people away with his skill. I also watched a lot of footage of Marsalis talking about Armstrong. He got on his trumpet and showed the things Armstrong invented. @stuartk, I have an album with Shankar and Menuhin. I think I must have seen them a long time ago either live or on TV. They're amazing together. @tyray Grappelli played with Django Reidnhardt whose band was famous in Paris. When he came to the states much later, he's played with a lot of people. I have a number of his albums. One with Itzhak Perlman. My favorite is with Teresa Brewer. They're like a cute couple together. I loved the Grappelli/Grisman concert I saw live. Grisman is supposedly a blue grass player, but I think he transcends that genre. |
I was absolutely wonderstruck by Stephanne Grappelli in the Johnny Carson link. I’ve never even heard of him. He plays with such ease, panache with so much graceful swing. This is good stuff. He kinda reminds of America’s Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys jazz and blues country (western) swing. https://gpb.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/jazz-blues-western-swing/ken-burns-country-music/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okNgLm4Ilt4 Along with Spade Cooley and his Orchestra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D14M9uW5sF0
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Another "East meets West group" with violin, played by Jerry Goodman, in this case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GAN_GNDmjs And one more: Elvin Jones with Oregon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00e1wqawEMg&list=PLUQMjA4aCygThCQW6bBZ0IW1dR4UOzkSN
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You mentioned Grisman, which reminded me of Old and In The Way and his associate in that band, Vassar Clements, who was clearly not a Jazz musician but nevertheless quite "jazzy" in his approach. I’m guessing he was influenced in this regard by way of Western Swing. I’ve always liked his playing. On a completely different tangent, I once saw Yehudi Menuhin with Ravi Shankar and a band composed of L. A. studio players including Bud Shank and Dennis Budimir play outdoors in Ojai. It was supposed to be some sort of Indo-Jazz Fusion but I don’t remember the music, as this was back in the 70’s. You can interpret that as you will ... ;o) You’ve got me curious. Which heavenly bodies do you associate with other well-known trumpet players?
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I discovered jazz ready to understanding it late in my 35 years forty years ago then... But your post remind me that i bought a Louis Armstrong album where he sang also ... I was young in my 20...But for me this album was not a door to enter into jazz, it was Louis Armstrong as a unique artist so big (the sun) then, it was more than jazz itself for me at the times because no one else compared one second in my young heart to Louis voice and trumpet...It takes 15 more years for me to discover Chet Baker ( the moon) then and others jazz artists... Marsalis describe well in 2 minutes what i felt without knowing it at the time : |
Have you heard this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLJqeKHOCA4&list=OLAK5uy_k64-SZyjhnqd_DzzmgDkdDmoSBm8fICZo&index=2 RE: poetry, my poems are very much based in images. Thanks for your suggestion. |
Stephanne Grappelli and Dave Grisman introduced by Johnnie Carson a long time ago. I went to see them live at UCLA and it was an exceptionally memorable concert. They were hot together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIbL9uw139s Stephanne Grappelli and McCoy Tyner live. I’m streaming an album of theirs on Qobuz. |
@mahgister, what I am hearing from you, while listening to Scriabin played by Richter, is about how a musician can translate the composer's passion, and a large aspect of that is in the understanding of timing, or perhaps the composer's magical heartbeat. I was talking about the listener getting so involved in the music that she loses a sense of time. I think that is what passionate moments are about. @stuartk, I will post a poem below about jazz. It might help in the understanding of the poem to know how I work. I was taught, and I have taught others, to write in images. As one of the most influential American poets, William Carlos Williams, said: "There are no ideas but in things." So poems are not about ideas, they are more about dreams and the translation of images. That approach to poetry is difficult to accomplish but also freeing. Perhaps it might free you? Max Beckman was a pre-Hitlerian German painter who sensed what was coming and captured the distortions of Germany to come under Hitler. In Germany, as in America, jazz was considered "decadent" music. It was played in speakeasys here and in clubs in Germany shunned by conservative society. As @maghister said, rhythm is a very integral part of poems. And I worked carefully on the lines and the way the rhythm works.
MAX BECKMAN'S FACES
they were all caught looking over their shoulders stunned by how easy young bodies glide into jazz & the way cigarette smoke from a vamp aging before our eyes crawls up the cheek of an idle dandy & disappears in his hair
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Horowitz is able to play everything more than well.... But Scriabin music ask for a magician dedicated to him in a total devotion ( like Wagner and Beethoven ask for total devotion)... He is not my favorite in Scriabin, for example Igor Zhukov is better for Scriabin but who know him ? Physical time has nothing to do with musical time, physical time is measured metronomically or with an hour glass or a watch... Musical time cannot be measured by a metronome, there is a "beat" in it that swing for some heart as another heart and cannot be measured... Musical time result from the encounter of the heart of a musician with the heart of another musician ( a collegue, a meastro, a composer ) then cannot be measured, it surge one moment to the next imprevisible... It is like that Scriabin must be played... Scriabin ask for another musician because his goal was awaking humanity... On this he differ from Bach who serve God, and resemble Beethoven more than Wagner ( Wagner use an ideology on which and from which his music is born). I discovered also that Liszt also like Scriabin is almost impossible to play for the same reason ... I begin suddenly to be moved by Liszt now who became one of my God thanks to very few pianist able to play it... Scriabin is born not only from Chopin but from Liszt like a blacksmith in his forge, scuplting iron in the form of blooming flower. Here what Debussy has to say about his contemporary Scriabin: «This is a recording from one of Debussy’s concerts. He performed this piece after traveling to the Gobi Desert. Debussy remarked once during his tour: "Even composers like Liszt, Beethoven, and Chopin could not reach the complexity brought by Alexander Scriabin." "I have never seen such genius in a piece."» listen to Debussy playing Scriabin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wZkA-HvPUU
I must add about Debussy that i discovred him with Ivan Moravec, a god pianist also who put me to ecstasy able to play the "cathédrale engloutie" so well i see the cathédrale before me appearing... Since i bought all albums of Moravec...He is my third God pianist.
Even with the bad recording we can hear that Debussy get scriabin right. it is incredibly moving ..His playing is delicately chiseled with a timing sense extraordinary which prove out of any doubt that he understood Scriabin and not only loved him. Compare to Sofronitsky interpretation the God pianist of Scriabin in his daughter opinion and in the mind of all Russians : Sofronitsky and his volcanic playing : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RwdHs756l4&list=RD1RwdHs756l4&start_radio=1
Now listen Scriabin himself as "recorded" by mechanical method : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfYMFNjSMnU&list=RDVfYMFNjSMnU&start_radio=1
Scriabin is the greatest pianist with Liszt ( i discovered Liszt withmy second interpreter with Sofronitsky/Scriabin)
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@maghister, I applaud you for writing about music. So few poems attempt to. I'm going to try to dig a little deeper into your poem as well as your wonderful talk about music and time. Since you mentioned Leibniz who was a mathematician as well as a philosopher, I am going try to take a step further into your discussion of time and music. In Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, he discusses time a lot, talking about the human experience of time. In my mind, however, human is an example of consciousness. We need the concept of consciousness so that we can talk about "experiencing" time, which I think you are talking about in regards to humans listening to music. Just to review some basics. A person traveling fast enough will age more slowly relative to a person "standing still." A person closer to a gravitational source will age more slowly than a person farther away. This time differential had to be taken into account in order to make gps work. Since the satellite is farther from the earth's gravitational field, it's time ticks a tad quicker than cars on earth. If the differential is not taken into account, cars would be running into trees. Einstein also talked about basic human conscious experience. A rollercoaster distorts our conscious experience of time, as do other intense experiences. Although this kind of distortion cannot be measured against a clock. It's more of a feeling of time. Yet I think I can safely say that our human consciousness is intertwined with time. If a person is looking at a spaceship traveling close to the speed of light, time is moving more quickly for the viewer. And thus, the twin experiment in which one twin is on the spaceship and returns to earth younger than the twin who was "standing still." Getting back to music, I think you are talking about certain music--music which does not move to the ticking of a metronome--interacting with the listener's experience of time. And perhaps this is why some of us like music that does not accentuate a regular beat. I'm going to take a step here that I haven't heard others on this forum take--sex. I have never seen people grin so much and so deeply as jazz musicians on a stage. Often these grins seem to come from the bass player and drummer, the guys in charge of time. And when they get off a regular metronomic beat, they grin all the more. The only other place I have seen such an all-encompassing grin is having sex, which also distorts conscious time to a great degree. Most of the things I can think of which are "fun," like rollercoasters (not at my age, though), sex, and music, (also some drugs), seem to have the effect of altering our consciousness of time. And I think maybe that is what you are getting at in your poem and your writings about Scriabin, music, and time. As for the primal, we know that upper Paleolithic people (40,000 plus years ago) played music, because we have found musical instruments that old. From my studies, I believe that art and spiritual practices were one experience beyond distinction for the ancients. I also believe that womens were their shamans and leaders, but that's another story. What was the essence of these primal people's "celebrations"? I think it was an ecstatic yowl that they existed as part of the universe. And now I will take a step that cannot be proven (although there is certainly evidence) and say that the universe itself is conscious. If primal people celebrated their existence as part of the conscious universe, then they were ecstatically crying out from their souls about being part of the entire creation. I don't think they believed in a creator yet. In my opinion that was a bad turn and led to metronomic time. Is this extrapolation close to what you were getting at? BTW, I will be listening to Scriabin this week. I have a feeling that Horowitz is not on your list of people who play him well. @frogman, Would I being going too far astray if I were to say that the melodic aspect of jazz came from Euro-Americans? In most of the American art I am familiar with the artists want to establish an American voice. Would this not also be true of jazz? |
To my fellow poets, @mahgister and @audio-b-dog , thanks for your contributions! I don't currently have anything to offer in this vein, currently but perhaps your work will inspire something... ;o) |
It also sounds like he’s playing solo...Interesting |
Thanks frogman for your appreciation which means much to me... This is my favorite version of the same piece of Richter by the greatest Scriabin disciple (who wed his daughter) Sofronitsky. I was not a fan of Scriabin till i heard him. After Scriabin became one of my musical god. ( Josquin des Prez. Bach,Brucker,Scriabin) As an anecdote Richter and Gilels were the young disciple of Sofronitsky and some night drunk with their master they heard him saying you are geniuses but they protested to him claiming he was anyway a god... The expressive power of Sofronitsky is unmatched save by few like Heinrich Neuhaus and his son Stanislas,Igor zhukov, and surprizingly but badly recorded the Italian master Michael PontI . I say that because in my experience almost nobody can play Scriabin as it should. We cannot whistle Scriabin then playing it suppose an understanding of each chord meaning very few are able to understand with the heart and hands.Id you did not enter ecstasy listening Scriabin it is because of the pianist not Scriabin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_OcCeVVdZE&list=RDK_OcCeVVdZE&start_radio=1
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Fantastic post, @mahgister ! It is generally acknowledged that Jazz, at its most basic, is a blend of African rhythmic elements and European harmony. As you suggest, in the absence of time/rhythm, however obtuse (“Rite….” is a good example), harmony becomes almost pointless. Thanks for the “The Bad Plus” clip, @acman3 . One of the best “non traditional” takes on “Rite of Spring” that I have heard; and there are many. It should be noted that Russian and French musical traditions are closely intertwined. Both Stravinsky and Scriabin were heavily influenced by French musical ideas and traditions; particularly Russia’s ballet tradition (“Rite…”). It was common for French musicians of note to be “imported” to Russia to teach Russian students. Sounds rather French to me, not to mention simply beautiful: https://youtu.be/C6LhXzKs0rY?si=PAVJABEgqrKsEtFA
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Thanks tyray i am happy to be useful ...
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i just wrote this to convey my Scriabin impression:
I created the past that never was The instant of perception Out of any tune
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+1 @acman3 Bravo! If you can find me something of Scriabin with musicians of this same ilk playing in the same type of venue with similar instruments or close too, I would be grateful. This brings me to mind of Duke Ellington. This is refreshing, for me...
Thank you for this....Very musically informative for me.
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@mahgister, here is a poem I wrote many years ago about Stravinsky's Rite of Spring: Stravinsky
Such a leap from an oompah band to the dark primordial marshland sprawling beyond sight or imagination in an absolutely secret expanse finally brought to light. He grabs it by the neck, that captured goblin, & will not yield to its wailing & incessant rhythmic kicking, until it quiets & whispers ageless secrets in his ear / about fear & sensuality long forgotten. |
i think that jazz is more primal than classical...But some classical music are more primal than some jazz... I was speaking in my post above about the way musical time is understood in Jazz and classical... Scriabin is primal as jazz is for example for me ... Stravinsky was searching the "primal" you are right but he reach it in an external way...His concept of time seems imposed on the music ... By contrast Scriabin musical time is born from the chords and not imposed on them ... Scriabin , in his piano music impossible to play anyway by most pianist save very few unknown pianist in the West, has an internal experience of musical time more intrinsical so to speak than Stravinsky... The difference is the difference between the real Orient in Art and the Western evocation of the East in Western Art (orientalism)...
An anecdote : The mother of Stravinsky comparing Stravinsky music to Scriabin preferred Scriabin who was considered a god in Russia.
The reason for me is evident so genius was Stravinsky and he is one of the greatest Russian composer, Scriabin is more revolutionary, transforming piano playing into a "primal" musical time machine which goal was putting us in a trance. He succeeded. By the way in jazz Sun Ra is our Scriabin so to speak....
The mastery of Stravinsky was the witchcraft by which he could use all musical stylistic languages of all musical history in some patchwork way... The mastery of Scriabin was creating a unique writing style whose goal was recreating music itself...The greatest piano composer after Liszt in my opinion ...
«Medtner HATED Stravinsky’s music and the course of 20th century music in general, he loved early and mid Scriabin, but considered him a mad butterfly in his later works. Rachmaninoff thought Medtner perhaps the greatest of ’contemporary’ composers. The two were close friends.» is it necessary to say that this is not musical knowledge but only my listenings impression ?
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@maghister, I agree with your distinction between jazz and classical. One appeals more to the head and the other to the heart and soul. Jazz is primal. I would like to make a few distinctions, however. I think Stravinsky, for example, was searching for the primal in his ballet "Rite of Spring." Its rhythms are primal. When it was first played in Paris in 1918, people booed, threw things, and walked out. I love it. |
Many ordinary musicians can play classical and enjoy playing jazz. But playing in a band of many versus with two or three or four with a "timing" born from the unwritten play versus a "timing" imposed by the written play ask for a different time feeling... Music is classical or jazz, rythms of time and timing... There is no time in mathematics... But there is not so much numbers in music as thought Pythagoras and Leibnitz after him but more timbre explorations and timing time investigations... We hear a vibrating sound source which "inform" us and we vibrate ourselves in response in a timing way, transforming our body and the instrument or the vibrating phenomena into one event. It is Speech creation already with music. Here in speech, as in music, time is not external to the event but on the opposite created by it and born from it.( poetry unlike prose can gave us this birth of creative memory again) Jazz is the root by which we can remember the birth of music and speech again by recreating musical time and timing in a new way compared to classical western music. The black African root of jazz was a gift. "its rolling" as said to Randy Weston his African master friend. Time is born with music again. |
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@stuartk, It probably sounds as if I am saying jazz musicians aren't as good as classical. I'm not at all saying that. I am saying that they are judged by a different standard. Probably the most important point I made is that jazz musicians are judged by their individuality, their "voice," and how much emotion or intellectual satisfaction they get across to the audience. I can think of a number of jazz musicians who weren't that great, but audiences liked them for a while. I have too many of their records in my collection and never listen to them. Their shelf life was short. John Klemmer is a good example. In other words, there is a great variety of musical tests that jazz musicians must go through to rise to the top. Obviously some meet the classical criterium. Although, a number of jazz musicians who play classical music are soloists, like Wynton Marsalis and Keith Jarrett. Soloists need to have more individuality than memebers of an orchestra, to whom I was referring. Classical musicians have to meet extremely rigorous vetting. The daughter of a friend of mine had a classical music education in flute. She was excellent, but could not get in a classical orchestra, even though she was taken under the wing of the L.A. Phil's lead flutist. So, simply being educated in classical music does not make for a classical musician. Anyway, I think I've hit the end of my rope on this topic. I am judging from the standpoint of an uneducated audience memeber. I stand by my logic, but admit it might be faulty. I think I need somebody who knows a lot more about the subject and that would probably be a musician who has played in a classical orchestra and a jazz group. Benny Goodman comes to mind, but he is dead. |
Very nice! I would suggest that both Aldana and Redman display both masculine and feminine aspects in their playing.
Seems to me Coltrane needed first to "please" himself. After all, it was his own extremely high standard that drove him to work so hard. And "pleasing" the players with whom one is performing must also necessarily come before pleasing an audience. I’ve never played Jazz but this has been true playing Rock and Blues, in my experience and given its highly collaborative nature, this would, it seems to me, be no less important in Jazz.
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'Flute Soufflé' album from 1957. https://youtu.be/BKb9zDH_LRc?feature=shared more of Bobby Jaspar https://youtu.be/Te-3Q_OZPrM?feature=shared
The Ultimate Adventure 2007 Full Album.Chick Corea lideró este concierto sobre el escenario que recupera el espíritu flamenco del álbum "Touchtone", grabado en 1982 junto a Paco de Lucía. Éramos nuevos compañeros pero viejos conocidos; Yo, Jorge Pardo (flauta y saxo), Carles Benavent (bajo), Rubem Dantas (percusión) y Tom Brechtlein (batería)". |
**** As a classical musician, they aren’t allowed to have their own voice. **** @audio-b-dog , with respect, this could not be further from the truth. In keeping with your comment about being able to “tell Coltrane anywhere”, it is, likewise, very easy to tell, for example, William Kincaid from, say, William Bennett. Now, if one finds oneself running to Google to find out who those two gentlemen are/were this proves my point. They are two of the greatest and most influential orchestral flute players (speaking of flute players) that ever lived and whose sounds and artistry can be identified immediately by any listener who has spent as much time listening to their artistry on recordings or live as that listener may have spent listening to Coltrane. It is a matter of the amount of exposure to specific players regardless of genre among other factors. It is true that orchestral Classical musicians have to express their artistry (swagger) within narrower parameters than do SOLO Jazz players. To say that they have to sound “like the conductor wants them to” is an exaggeration. Yes, an orchestral conductor may have a certain “vision” for what the particular music being performed should sound like, but the players do have latitude when it comes to the expressivity, phrasing, tonal color (and more) of a solo or ensemble passage in a composition. It is a matter of nuance within potentially narrower parameters since the player (and conductor) has to, ultimately, honor the written composition; the composer’s intent. In fact, there is sometimes tension between a player and the conductor when it comes to certain nuances of interpretation. When it comes to chamber music the players have even more latitude since the players, not a conductor, make all the artistic choices in the service of the particular composition. In the case of solo artists, even more so. Classical musicians need to have tremendous technical proficiency because that ultra high level of proficiency is required to execute that repertoire, especially modern works by composers who test the limits of what is possible technically on any given instrument. The point of my diatribe is that the ability of Classical musicians to be expressive and/or soulful should not be underestimated. Our own and personal musical preferences as listeners and level of “understanding” of those musics are formed for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which is simply amount of exposure to a particular genre, Ask any one of the players that you mentioned as examples of players who are both Jazz and Classical players and they will tell you that at the end of the day (hate that expression 😊), from the players’ perspective, the similarities are greater than the differences. Apology for rehashing this frequently quoted and very true adage: ”There are only two kinds of music. Good music and the other kind” - Duke Ellington
BTW, a minor factoid that may interest you. Orchestral players do not “have to audition every year”. Yes, the audition process is very rigorous, as it should be given the demands of the music. Once a player “wins” the audition process then there is typically a one year “trial” period to determine whether the player is a good “fit” artistically and personally within that particular group of musicians. Then, if all goes well, the player is tenured. There is actually relatively low turnover within most major orchestras. What are your thoughts about Mr. Dudamel leaving LA for NY? Regards. |
@stuartk, @frogman, @tyray, First, Lew Tabackin's flute sounded beautiful to my ear. Second, I think Andre Previn is in a very special class because he ended his career as a great conductor. I have just ordered a record of him conducting Debussy. He was also a bit of an enfant terrible, famously leaving his wife Dori (who wrote a song about him) for Mia Farrow. Although, a number of other jazz musicians are also classical musicians, Keith Jarrett, Benny Goodman, Wynton Marsalis, just to name a few. Still I think there is a distinction. Classical musicians go through a rigorous review to be chosen for an orchestra, especially to be the lead musician. Every year they have to audition for their job, and I have seen much change over my years of watching the L.A. Phil. Jazz musicians pretty much just need to please an audience. How do I put it? They have jazz in their blood and they need enough technical precision to express that jazz. I know jazz musicians like Coltrane were perfectionists and studied all the time, and that was one of the reasons he was one of the greatest jazz saxaphonists. And perhaps today jazz musicians need to be technically better because so many of them come from schools like Berklee where they had to audition to get in. But for just purity's sake, I think classical musicians are chosen on that basis. Also the nature of jazz and classical musicians are very different. Jazz musicians come into their own when they find a voice. I can tell Coltrane anywhere, even if he's playing a piece I haven't heard before. Classical musicians must play Beethoven one day and Philip Glass the next. They have to adapt to whatever the conductor says they should sound like. As a classical musician, they aren't allowed to have their own voice. Although, I admit there can be a kind of swagger when they are totally into Bartok or Brahms. |
