is this jazz being improvisation or classical being scripted?
https://x.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1853683665647124680
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
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«Well if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn’t play like Wynton.» Now reading this quote by Chet Baker about Wynton Marsallis, i imagine that each one of these 4 great musicians will say the same thing about each others... The reason for this is certainly expressed the best by the late Quincy Jones : « Excellence isn't an act, it's a habit
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“Q” was one of a kind. Did you say “old school Jazz from the ‘50’s and ‘60’s? https://youtu.be/ldYen3sYVUc?si=VR9WOalPMY_Ctn6z https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBJenJIJrq0zehq8tKd8teZiOSjk2bBG2&si=sqOHv-LqUf-EP3MB A side of “Q” rarely mentioned: https://youtu.be/rnKZ_PEdXcc?si=1blHXiy7xuDG25zx
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Sad News.. R.I.P. Quincy Jones
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Ah -- "hint of..." -- my mistake! Yes; I can definitely see how Lovano and Potter differ. This isn't the case regarding Potter and Brecker. I'm not disputing the parallels you draw, it's just that I haven't listened much to Brecker. I'm generally not a fan of whatever one calls electrified amalgamations of Jazz , Rock, Pop and Funk (as distinct from early "classic Fusion" ala Mahavishnu) and Brecker seems to have recorded an awful lot in that vein. I have heard a few examples of Brecker playing in straight ahead all-acoustic settings and while I admire his "iron" chops and intelligence, I don't find him particularly emotionally engaging. I'm aware that Potter has released some more commercial-sounding recordings but I haven't heard them. The recordings I have heard by him have not left me feeling emotionally unengaged. For one thing, he displays a lyrical bent at times that seems very different from what I've heard so far from Brecker. I know -- "Ignorance of the Jazz is no excuse" -- I shouldn't be so constrained by my tastes. Although they sound like quite different players to these ears, I'll take your word for it regarding Brecker's influence on Potter. |
@stuartk , Thank you for your post. You are a very astute listener (I believe you are also a musician). Your posts make it obvious that you have very good ears and understanding of the music, so no apology necessary for your discernment. Quite the contrary. I always appreciate your posts as well. A couple of “fine tunings” to what I wrote previously. I did not at all say that Potter’s style has a “dominant Jazz/Rock sensibility”. I wrote “hints of a Jazz/Rock sensibility”. Btw, to have some Jazz/Rock sensibility is not a negative at all in my book. It is the reality of where the music went over the course of the last four or five decades. If one listens to Michael Brecker, broadly considered to be the greatest of the post-Coltrane tenor players one can hear a similarity in Potter’s tone and more subtly in his inflections. (Brecker, who was very prominent in the Jazz/Rock and Pop genres as well as mainstream Jazz was a huge influence on tenor players of the last five decades or so). As opposed to, for instance, Joe Lovano, a contemporary of both Brecker and Potter who has a decidedly different tone approach. Warmer and less aggressive and at times ethereal as opposed to the “horn about to split at the seams” tone approach that characterizes most post-Coltrane players. Early(ish) Brecker with the recently posted guitarist Jack Wilkins. This record was posted here a couple of years ago: https://youtu.be/WyqcP03Mj9s?si=DXk4HxfmSZz_PiB1
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Thanks for your response. I'm always learning something new from your posts ! Perhaps my ear is simply not sufficiently acute to perceive the dominant "Jazz/Rock sensibility" you pick up on in Potter's playing. Or perhaps this is simply a result of my not having heard him in enough settings to form a more rounded opinion. As far as abstraction is concerned, it was not atypical for the Dave Holland Quintet (live at least) to venture "outside". The music could get fairly Free during such interludes. You might have disagreed with me had you been sitting in the venue but at such times, but what was played did not in my ears/brain, evoke associations or parallels with/to Jazz/Rock's harmonic language. More like Freed-up New Orleans style simultaneous improv. I now see I misunderstood your original comment. I didn't consider whether Miles would've found Potter's playing in synch with his vision at the time Shorter was enlisted. I'm sure you're right that Miles was not looking for a Coltrane disciple at that point. Finally, regarding the link, Shai Maestro's playing sounds quite Pop-influenced to me. That's not something that, to my ear, figures strongly in Dave Holland's compositions, so I wouldn't expect Potter to respond the same way. Having said that, I'm not a professional musician. No doubt there is much that is obvious to you that I miss!
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@stuartk , Chris Potter is an amazing tenor saxophonist. A technical wizard who in recent times was bested in that department probably only by Michael Brecker. Amazing technician who is also very creative as a soloist. I like him very much. As you point out he “can certainly handle very slippery timing and harmonically ambiguous settings” (great comment, btw). However, I hope we can agree that not every player is great in every musical setting, even if they can “handle” each setting’s particular musical demands. When in settings established by an artist on the level of a Miles Davis, to be able to handle the demands is simply not enough. There has to be a compatible style and creative vision that causes “the whole to be greater than the sum of its parts”. Great leaders (Miles) demand that. Potter plays in a decidedly post-Coltrane style and like Brecker shows hints of a Jazz/Rock sensibility in his tone and inflections. He did play with Steely Dan for some time, after all. Personally, I think he owes quite a bit to Brecker, stylistically. He is very assertive. Some would say aggressive. While he has amazing command of the instrument, harmony and rhythm, as you point out, I don’t hear a lot of command or use of the abstract. Miles’ music during the Second Great Quintet period could be VERY abstract. Would he have been what Miles was looking for in a tenor player at that point in his career? I’m not so sure. A post-Coltrane sensibility is probably not what Miles was looking for at that point. For his later electric period? Much safer bet. I hope this explains my reasoning (just one man’s opinion). I love this: |
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I couldn’t agree more with your sentiment, Stuartk. I don’t think it has been suggested otherwise. Having said that, for me, the “analysis” or learning of things like the reasons for why great players like Miles make the personnel (and others) choices they make enhances the listening. Can’t imagine Porter in the Second Great Quintet, ‘though 😊 |
Re: Shorter vs. Coleman, as a listener, for me, it comes down to the mood I’m in, on any given day or evening. I don’t want to listen to Shorter’s Blue Notes or the 2nd Great 5tet all the time, even though these recordings are among my all time favorites. If I couldn’t listen to Coleman, Jordan, Gordon, Lovano, Potter, or any other tenor player without thinking "Well, Miles would rather play with Wayne than this guy", that would not be a good thing. I want to be able to be fully present with whatever I’m listening to in the moment without interference from the left brain’s fondness for analysis, comparison and judgement. As much as I respect giants like Miles, Tony, Herbie and Ron, I don’t want to share my listening chair with them!
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Thanks i will investigate his output.... Seems interesting to me...
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@scalar9 Wow...This is nice. And that backing band, umph. I love the staid tempo. |
Here is an estimable artist who may not be known by many jazz fans, the guitarist Jack Wilkins. Check out his deeply felt rendering of John Coltrane’s classic, Naima: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyAk4pCvZAo&pp=ygUSamFjayB3aWxraW5zIG5haW1h |
Ohnwy61, couldn’t agree more re Shorter the composer. One of the most important modern Jazz composers. Some would say the most important. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k_S9vI2ODPguv7DmtgAJ8frd1yj5dSGgA&si=R3g6Eo64dAJgGfPG |
Frogman, as always an excellent point. Let's not forget Wayne Shorter as a composer. It was always Mile's band, but in a group with Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams and Ron Carter, Shorter was effectively the co-leader. There's a wonderful documentary on Shorter called "Zero Gravity". It's about his childhood, his spirituality, drinking, composing, death of loved ones and a lot about working with Miles Davis. Highly recommended. |
Wayne Shorter was indeed magical. I would take that assessment a step further. One of the reasons that he was magical was that he fit Miles’ creative vision in that the music had to always move forward stylistically; to evolve. If one looks at Shorter’s work over the course of his career this stylistic evolution is amazing, from his early work to hard bop, to that as cofounder of Weather Report, to “World Music” and his later solo work. Coleman, on the other hand always stayed firmly in a hard bop/post bop vein. |
The 6 albums Blue note is one of my favorite Hammond box....
I cannot live without it... Larry Young so different he plays than many others Hammond players is efficient, musical, self restraint, and servicing the music more than himself. I love him. All musicians with him are great especially here. Hypnotizing relaxing music so well done than we are less surprised than moved and then immersed...
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I like George Coleman. A lot. On the other hand, it’s hard to argue with the perspective of Miles, Williams and Hancock. 😊. I think I get what the issue may have been for those guys. As much as I like his playing, I am seldom surprised by what Coleman plays. I suppose it’s possible to not be “right” without necessarily being “wrong”. Setting is key. https://youtu.be/nuYeeMcyCIk?si=n8UEmpQ5G6oxwqtX
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I’ve never warmed to Sam Rivers, in any of the settings I’ve heard. I need a bit more consonance. Nothing wrong with George Colemans’s playing with Miles, from my perspective. "My Funny Valentine" remains one of my favorite Miles releases, several decades after I first heard it and Maiden Voyage is still one of my favorite Blue Notes. |
’And they said in 1956 tv and rock and roll was killing big band jazz...They’re swinging so hard, it sounds not only easy (to listen to) but nasty (jam session) too!’ You can definitely hear the ’nuances’ between say a Benny Goodman arrangement Count Basie or Duke Ellington arrangement. And that’s taking nothing away from Benny... |
And they said in 1956 tv and rock and roll was killing big band jazz...They're swinging so hard, it sounds not only easy but nasty too! |
Nice! @acman3 |
