Jazz for aficionados
Strateahed, your evaluation of Lee Morgan and Miles was the best anyone could have written; while Miles couldn't "out blow" Lee, he conquered "time", which is something relatively few "jazz" musicians conquered; there are so many Miles Davis's that you can have a small collection based on any one of them. Enjoy the music. |
Interesting discussion here re Davis, Morgan, and Brown. This is more up my alley, being a professional brass player. As Frogman has said, the removal of Davis would have changed the development of jazz much more than the other two, and I think this would have been true even if Morgan and Brown had lived as long as Miles. I am about 99% certain that if I surveyed all of my trumpet playing colleagues, that they would say Miles was by far the most influential. I am tempted to do just that over the next couple of weeks and see what they say, and to ask them which was their personal favorite as well. I'll report back if I do. That said, all were fantastic players, and I don't think anyone is saying otherwise here. All three are decently represented in my collection. |
Strateahed, Somehow I don't get this statement, " As Frogman has said, the removal of Davis would have changed the development of jazz much more than the other two, and I think this would have been true even if Morgan and Brown had lived as long as Miles." Beyond Diz and Bird, I don't quite get this development of jazz. Jazz musicians I've known were such staunch individualists, that I couldn't hear how they were affected by Miles one way or the other. It could be said that Miles led jazz in "fusion", but not all jazz musicians were into fusion. The more I think about Frogman's and Learsfool's statement, the less I get it; I need help on this one. |
@orpheus10 first, I can’t presume to speak for @frogman or @learsfool . They’ll have to weigh in themselves. But what I can say is when we
look at jazz, unless we accept the premise that it encompasses more than bebop
and hard bop, then there is no need for further discussion. “Bird was the giant among us. He was our musical and spiritual leader. Bird died before I had a chance to let him know his message got through to me.” Sonny Rollins, in a snippet from interview on local jazz radio station 4/15/17 Miles carried a message too. What Sonny’s statement says is that Miles’ legacy was through how he influenced other musicians. By the way, I feel that’s an important distinction between Lee and Miles. Morgan was a better bebop/hard bop trumpet player; Miles was a superior musician. That was reflected in how Miles interacted with Gil Evans on big band and larger ensembles, in addition to Miles’ many groups … including his two great ensembles . Many would say they were perhaps the greatest groups ever assembled: Coltrane, Cannonball, Bill Evans, and Paul Chambers; then Shorter, Hancock, Tony Williams, and Ron Carter. So, there were 8 other musicians – each considered a virtuoso in their own right – who Miles drove to their better selves. Then you have Red Garland, Philly Joe Jones, and JJ Johnson. Adding to that list, we have those who became part of the electrified era. True, it was the forerunner to “fusion”; but I certainly wouldn’t put it in the same class as so-called “smooth jazz” [please don’t get me started!]. How about Chick Corea? The most amazing thing about “Kind of Blue” is that each cut was done in one take. It was an intricate expression of a type of jazz based more on scales than chords. That was Miles. He communicated his vision of what he wanted to the group, laid it out, and then they jammed. I think the result speaks for itself. In the DVD “Herbie Hancock: Possibilities” Herbie talks about Miles’ influence on him and his stable mates and how they all learned to create on the fly and to exhibit exceptional artistry while staying “in the moment.” Miles’ view of jazz was that it was always changing and evolving … pushing the limits. He was not alone in that. There was the “free jazz” period, with the likes of Anthony Braxton. [I walked out on folks like Oliver Lake and Archie Shepp]. Years ago I went to see Cannonball at the Both/And Club in SF. Joe Zawinul was on keyboards (he would later collaborate with Miles on” Bitches Brew”). A couple of years later Zawinul teamed up with Wayne Shorter to form Weather Report. I went to check them out not knowing what to expect. Was it mainstream jazz? No. It was something different; and I liked some of it. Isn’t that all that really counts? |
Strateahed, I'm from St. Louis, and I've met just about everybody in Miles family. The people who loved Miles and his music in the beginning, still felt unwavering love for Miles the person, but privately, they felt he could leave some of his new music on the doorstep when he came to visit them, which is something they would never admit publicly. Miles brother and I have similar tastes in jazz, and his taste couldn't change to accommodate some of Miles music after "Bitches Brew". I have seen and discussed things from the very opposite point of view as you presented. But when you think about it, if your brother were a musician, and fell to banging on garbage cans, you would love him no less. My point is, I have known a number of Miles "original" fans who have a negative view of his music after "Bitches Brew"; Miles knew this would happen after he made radical changes in his music. |
Frogman, Miles continued to gain new audiences, but I believe this discography will certify when he left his original audience behind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_Davis_discography My most current CD's by Miles are nothing but dust catchers, but before then was "Live Evil", which was heavy fusion, and then "On The Corner". His sense of aesthetics left me behind, and I found other artists to be more pleasing. I suppose if I had listened more intently I could have gotten where he was coming from, but I refuse to put forth a lot of effort in regard to understanding and enjoying music; either it grabs me or it doesn't. Why don't you post the most current music by Miles that you like. |
Last night ,by chance, I tuned in archived hour of Marian McPartland’s "Piano Jazz " . I never listened to her much in the 40 years she did the programs as I wasn’t much into jazz then . The conversations she had with virtually every one who was anyone in jazz must be the greatest treasure of jazz knowledge in the world . I ended up being up to 3 AM listening to a half dozen other programs . Most fun listening that I have ever had . Programs are stunningly archived on Minnesota Public Radio . As they were NPR i imagine they are on other NPR stations as well . I can’t imagine any lover of jazz not being overjoyed with both the talks and the music , the girl could play a bit , wonder on changes .Duos with guests are wonderful as well . One guy played "Blue Monk" on a French Horn and explained how he harmonized notes to do it . Almost dropped my dentures ! As Dizzy and Lennie Tristano said" If you can sing it you can play it ' . |
Been without Internet for a week. I survived just fine and it's always reassuring that it IS possible, still, to be without it. Good comments re Miles and I relate most closely to strateahed's point of view about him. Miles Davis exemplified what is arguably the most important aspect of the spirit of jazz; it's always evolving. His conviction to that idea was, by itself, an important influence on other musicians and on modern jazz. As far as the more directly musical influences are concerned there are probably very few young(er) trumpet players playing today that one can't point to while listening and say "aha!, that was a Miles'ism". I don't typically hear nearly as much "Lee Morgan" in younger players. While there have been many extremely individualistic players in jazz, I don't think there have been any who don't show the influence of players who came before at least to some degree. I love Morgan's very fiery playing and particularly that unique swagger that he had in his time feel. However, he was squarely in and pretty much stayed in a hard-bop bag. For Miles hard-bop was one rest-stop on his way to his next stylistic move. My favorite Miles is with the classic "60's Quintet" and I find that music more interesting and more harmonically advanced than most of what I have heard from Morgan. As an instrumentalist he was kind of unassuming. His tone could be "casual" sometimes and without that always full and confident tone of Morgan's; but, that was an artistic choice imo and he could play with fantastic control and delicacy when he wanted to. He didn't play with the obvious fiery quality of Morgan; but, was more subtle and much less predictable. When Morgan phrases it's much easier to anticipate, at least to a degree, how he will end a phrase; when I listen to Miles the sense is that he is always surprising the listener. Of course, his prowess as a band leader who encouraged inventiveness is well known. I understand why some listeners lost it when he went electric; although I don't agree that he lost all his previous listeners. But, I think it's always important to remember that one's reaction to art from a great artist usually says something about ourselves as much as about the art; and, to "get it" one has to consider the complete evolution of the music and not just one or two evolutionary periods. Miles' electric music was exactly where he needed to go as an artist if one considers the sequence of stylistic moves that he made leading up to it. Morgan's total output doesn't have that kind of breadth and, for me, even in a hard-bop bag his playing is certainly different but not "better" than Miles'. Btw, a correction: Morgan was 33 when he died not 20. Still and sadly very young, but not as young as Clifford Brown who died at age 25 and who is considered Morgan's main influence. Some listeners may prefer a more traditional and comfortable approach to playing a familiar melody; but, for me, what Miles does with this melody is incredibly beautiful and unusual and the ensemble playing is fantastic. My favorite quintet: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NRHK9psKK7I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x_whk6m67VE |
Thanks for the links @frogman ... good stuff indeed. I agree with what you said and how you described the differences between Morgan and Miles. I'm torn between the two great groups though. BTW, if you haven't already gotten it, check out " '58 Sessions" featuring the "Kind of Blue" ensemble. To me "Bitches Brew" and beyond went a little too far. I went back and looked up some history too ... like that Miles was already 30 when Clifford Brown died. Having kicked his heroin habit, he was poised to ascend to the throne; and here comes this newcomer. Listen to Lee Morgan's solos on Blue Train ... recorded when Morgan was just 19 years old. Man, talk about blazing! @orpheus10 I really get your Charlie Parker/Lee Morgan sax/trumpet comparison. Little wonder Lee was never mentioned by Miles. He was not likely to offer any praise; and criticism would have come off as jealousy or bitterness. At least that's my take. +1 with @schubert . Marian McPartland was a great personality and an elegant lady. She was one of my wife's favorite artists. We had the good fortune to be stage-side for what would be one of Ms. McPartland's last performances. She had to be assisted to her seat, and still put on an excellent show. I'm glad our local station continued to run her recordings of "Piano Jazz." |
I don't know where the idea that Miles never mentioned Lee Morgan came from (myth?), but here is at least one time when he did (not much, but he did 😎: http://www.erenkrantz.com/Music/MilesDavisInterview.shtml |
The 58 Sessions were more to my liking; nothing is more beautiful than this "On Green Dolphin Street". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrVnm66joQk Each artist's solo takes me sailing off on a cloud. A lady fan of Miles introduced me to this LP; I like recalling sweet memories. There was a club that played this on a big outside speaker to drum up business, and I can recall how sweet Lucky Thompson's solo sounded, reverberating off the buildings on a foggy or misty night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMW3RloxEyA Enjoy the music. |
Thanks @frogman for clearing that up. Time to let go of the myth. I was going by past limited experience with just a few interviews that I've read. Never thought to look into it further. The piece you shared shows him giving props to pretty much everybody; and then there's this: http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_4.html Happy Listening! |
Fabulous and classic Miles, O-10; those are two of my favorite jazz records. Strateahed, the Downbeat Blindfold Test has always been an interesting peek into the mindset of the musician being "tested". No question, Miles sure was one supremely opinionated dude; and uncompromising. It's also tempting to point out that, by today's political correctness standards, he was also more than a little bit racist. However, tempering that and the key fact here is that this was 1967 and if one considers what was going on in this country as concerns race during that time it is not surprising and even understandable. This leads back to the subject of Miles' genius. It has often been pointed out that great art always reflects the time of its creation. Wether a listener likes what it is reflecting or not is besides the point and not what makes it good art or not; how well it reflects the time is the standard. It's hard to understand how a musician can produce the beautiful music in the clips that O-10 posted and then six years after that Downbeat Bildfold Test produce this record. Panned by just about every critic at the time, "On The Corner" is now considered one of the most influential records of all time in all of music. This was 1973 (!) and the problem was that it was so ahead of its time. When listened to today, in the context of ALL the music around us, it sounds like it was recorded yesterday. The mistake that "critics" made was thinking that it was a jazz record. It was not; it was a record of "street" music recorded by a jazz musician trying to reflect what was going on during that time. The music, the sounds and the recording techniques were a precursor to the funk, hip-hop (I know, I know) and "world-music" that would follow over the next few decades. It shouldn't be listened to as a jazz record. Like it or not (I like it .....sometimes) it is without a doubt a great example of Miles' genius; or, at least, of his always-evolving attitude: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0ka1tY5yg |
"What the holy smoly is this?" is what I thought when I put it on the turntable; however, had I known what it was supposed to be, I might not have taken it back to the record store. Regardless how some rave about it, I can still live without it. I guarantee he did not carry one original fan along on that trip. Miles was Miles; what else can you say? |
**** I guarantee he did not carry one original fan along on that trip.**** O-10, I "guarantee" you are wrong with that assertion. He lost many without a doubt. I don't know what constitutes an "original" fan. Someone who was alive and listening all the way back when Miles was with Bird? I'm not THAT old. Someone who has listened to all of Miles' music including music from his period with Bird? I'm one of those and, as I have said, that's far from my favorite Miles; but, I "get it" and I can tell you that there are many more who do and some of those were listening to Miles as he was coming up (older than me). As always, nothing wrong with not liking something; but, that kind of absolutist comment seldom holds water. **** Miles was Miles **** Thats the point. |
I knew a guy who went to school with Miles, and had every record he had ever recorded as late as 66; he was an original fan. I'll bet $2.00 to a donut, that he didn't like that record. That was the worst selling record Miles ever put out, his career took a big dip after that record. The only people who got it, were those who came on the scene long after that record was released. |
For years and years Miles made a lot of beautiful, and exciting music that I bought and liked. This went on until his obsession with "different" led him to strange audio lands; they were too different for me anyway. "Different", but beautiful is how I would describe Miles and Gil Evans; this is a combination that has received very little discussion. No jazz musician that I know of has attracted as many female fans as Miles Davis; Chet Baker maybe, but when I listen to the beautiful arrangements that he made with Gil Evans, that also seemed to be in the collection of every female jazz fan I knew, I realize he (his music) had an undeniable mystique for the ladies that I don't think has been discussed. Since we aren't ladies, we can only speculate, but it seems to me this music has a certain feminine flow. Where do we begin? Why don't we try "Miles Ahead"; this album was released in 57, but was a big seller through the the early 60's for sure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlVrh8t1DE4 This music flows like a cool breeze on a hot summer night. How about "Porgy and Bess"; "It Ain't Necessarily So" ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-EgyUcHSSQ "Sketches Of Spain" made me want to go to a Bull fight; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHEzyqhDASw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qi1hSK5NWo For many years Miles made albums that would be found in every aficionados collection, as well as music collectors who were not specifically into jazz; yes, we all enjoyed the music that Miles made for many years. |
O-10, your lady friends should be commended for seeing Miles for the jerk that he was in his private life; he was verbally and physically abusive of the women in his life. However, your friends would be the exception. Miles had a reputation for being quite the ladies man and he had countless affairs even while married. His aloof and smooth stage persona seems to have been a big attraction for the ladies and he was considered the epitome of "cool". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PzghKujSdhA |
Frogman, it does absolutely no good to make a clarification with you; I stated this had absolutely nothing to do with "Miles the person", but only with his music; which albums they owned. They didn't keep up with what Miles was doing, only which album was doing what? Was it into something or not; there were never any conversations about what Miles was doing. I certainly didn't know or care what Miles was doing at that time. |
O-10, I don't see what the problem is. Perhaps you shouldn't look for one where there is none and not personalize things. Perhaps you should try to be more clear with what you're trying to say? Perhaps none of this matters so much that it warrants that kind of reaction since I am basically agreeing with your "clarification"? Perhaps a chill pill? That reminds me, hope Rok is doing ok 😎 |
Frogman, here's a new name "Noah Preminger"; on this clip he seems to be doing a pretty good Trane imitation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9eiyNqU3_M |
After so much discussion about Lee Morgan, I decided to focus exclusively on Mr. Morgan. You are known by the company you keep, and no where is that truer than when you decide to make an album; Lee Morgan was always surrounded with headliners. "Since I Fell For You" has long been one of my favorite songs going all the way back to "Lenny Welch"; "When you love me, and then you snub me. But what can I do, I'm still in love with you." Been there done that, hope to God I never do it again. Lee Morgan had me crying in my beer all over again; he could tell a story on that trumpet of his like nobody else. My listening room is the den, which has a fireplace in the shape of a large arch; I have tiny Christmas lights around that large arch, which functions as the center of the sound stage; since I don't have to please anyone but me, it's Christmas all year round. The musicians emanate from the fireplace; this room is my exclusive domain. On this particular evening I settled down for some serious evaluation of "Mr. Lee Morgan". "A Night In Tunisia" is a tune recorded by all the heavyweights, and when one places in the top 5, it has to be "dynomite". Lee Morgan's sustained riffs on that tune has not been exceeded by any that I've heard, plus Pepper Adams baritone slicing and riffing right back at Lee's trumpet is the contrast required for maintaining the intensity of this tune. Lee closes it out by riffing like he's in outer space, no body could blow notes that fast, and that clear; which is why so many chose him as the best trumpet ever. "I'm a Fool To Want You" is one of those ballads with a lot of slow burning emotion; that's Clifford Browns territory. While no one can take Cliffords crown, Lee comes close. "I Remember Clifford", I don't think anyone does this one as well as Lee Morgan. My night with several Lee Morgan albums was sustained without one let down. I'm awfully "persnickety" and most of the albums in my collection will have a let down, but Lee Morgan's albums were grade "A" in sustainabilty, meaning they didn't have any dropouts, they kept you on a high level of enjoyment. Enjoy the music. |
O-10, thanks for the clip. Noah Preminger is an interesting young tenor player who is getting a lot of attention and good press. I had read about him but had not heard anything by him. I hear more Sonny Rollins than Coltrane in his playing in that clip and like his thoughtful playing. Modern sound without the usual (for a young player) post-Coltrane edge in the tone. Hard for any young tenor to avoid showing some Coltrane influence and I hear more of it in this clip. Terrible sounding piano (instrument) but the playing is great: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=npayMQZ7Cos |
Fantastic clips, Acman3; gotta love YouTube! My favorite band in all of jazz; Miles' 60's quintet. Amazing group interaction and post-bop playing. Thanks for that. And, wonder of wonders; look closely at around :55; we see Miles actually smile! 😎 Freddie and band are on fire. Nice to hear the material from his CTI period without the CTI studio sound aesthetic that drives me a little nuts with all that reverb. |
I can't imagine that there are any recordings by Herbie NOT available on CD. I can't speak to which are the best sounding CDs as I have most of his early ones on LP. However, some of my favorites music-wise and that any fan should own are (you already have two of the best): "Takin Off" "Speak Like A Child" "Headhunters" "Gershwin' World" "The New Standard" |
Dizzy Gilespie had a very long and interesting career in jazz, and not for one single moment did he lose me in regard to the music he was playing. I think it would be interesting to compare Miles and Diz; what do you guys say? Miles Dewey Davis III (May 26, 1926 – September 28, 1991) was an American jazz trumpeter, bandleader, and composer. He is among the most influential and acclaimed figures in the history of jazz and 20th century music. Davis adopted a variety of musical directions in his five-decade career which kept him at t John Birks "Dizzy" Gillespie (/ɡᵻˈlɛspi/; October 21, 1917 – January 6, 1993) was an American jazz trumpeter, bandleader, composer, and singer.[1] AllMusic's Scott Yanow wrote, "Dizzy Gillespie's contributions to jazz were huge. One of the greatest jazz trumpeters of all time, Gillespie was such a complex player that his contemporaries ended up copying Miles Davis and Fats Navarro instead, and it was not until Jon Faddis's emergence in the 1970s that Dizzy's style was successfully recreated [....] Arguably Gillespie is remembered, by both critics and fans alike, as one of the greatest jazz trumpeters of all time. I think we could learn a lot through this exercise; especially since we have a resident musician; what do you say? |
By the time this album was recorded,in 1980. they all have passed their prime, but none the less, its a still a nice record to hear and have. Dizzy, Terry, Hubbard on 'The trumpet summit meets Oscar Peterson big four' https://youtu.be/RvPM2zsSglA more,an album that was made from previously unrealesed cuts from that same gig 'Alternate blues' https://youtu.be/dfbpMTf-SuQ |
The tune starts out real nice with piano and bass, plus guitar, but it could do without the brass; that takes it out of a mellow groove, and puts it somewhere else. I could enjoy the tune "Just Friends", without the brass. I don't know if you remember JATP, but they would have Miles, Bird, Rollins and a bunch of other stars on stage making something less than the best music, but that didn't matter because the people came to see all these stars on the stage together; too much is worse than not enough. The brass fit the music better on the last tune. |
When the Bird/Lee Morgan analogy was made several posts ago, part of the reason I didn’t understand the comparison was that, if that kind of comparison to Bird had to be made, Dizzy was, for me, the obvious choice. He was right there with Bird as one of the creators and shapers of be-bop and, as a trumpet player, opened the door to a way of playing the instrument in jazz that was new; like Bird, he brought a level of sheer technicality (speed) and range not heard before. Personally, I never much liked Dizzy’s tone since it usually sounded pinched and like it was being squeezed out of the instrument. Just my personal taste and his playing was always exciting and very harmonically interesting. My own feeling about his contribution to shaping be-bop is that it is somewhat underacknowledged since Bird is always the one given the overwhelming amount of credit and everyone else, even Dizz, is a bit of an afterthought. I have to wonder how it would have changed jazz had Dizzy not lived. He had a long career and tremendous discography, but he was and remained a bebopper and the later projects in which he played funky or in other non-bebop styles weren’t quite as convincing as his bebop stuff was for me. To me he always sounded like a bebopper playing a different style. And, of course, there is the tremendous contribution he made by bringing Cuban music into the mix and as an embassador of jazz with that great very affable stage persona. One of the greats without a doubt. But, compare to Miles? We will come up against the same issues as the other comparison and why I don’t quite get what this kind of comparison shows without putting it all in strict historical (evolution) context. As great and influential as Dizzy was, technically (no pun) he stopped being relevant (aside from his great bebop legacy) in the evolution of the music from the time hardbop came along. He was a bebopper and arguably the best. Where are his hardbop or post-bop recordings like what Miles was doing in the 60’s and beyond? Or, where is Dizzy’s "KOB"? We can compare Dizzy to bebop era Miles; that would be meaningful. And actually, I have always preferred Dizzy’s bebop playing over Miles’; certainly while they were each with Bird. But, Dizzy’s playing and vocabulary stayed there while Miles’ moved on; big time. As instrumentalists... apples and oranges. Reason I never cared for Dizzy’s tone is that in order to play as squeaky high as he did some players take the "squeeze the note out" approach as opposed to the more relaxed approach which yields a fuller richer tone. He had A LOT of technique and speed; probably more than Miles. But he never sounded like he could play softly and controlled like Miles could. I think that strateahed’s comment is very appropriate here: **** ....when we look at jazz, unless we accept the premise that it encompasses more than bebop and hard bop, then there is no need for further discussion. **** Dizzy was a giant who made tremendous contributions to the music. Miles remains a giant among giants, imo. |
While perusing the vinyl for new looking records, I discovered one by Herby Hancock that may surprise everyone; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0OGHVjnu9M |
**** ....when we look at jazz, unless we accept the premise that it encompasses more than bebop and hard bop, then there is no need for further discussion. **** I refuse to acknowledge that comment for reasons that should be quite apparent. Frogman, there were two Dizzy Gillespie's; one was a sort of musical ambassador who presented what that audience expected; a "bebop" entertainer. There was also another musician who was more serious about "his" music, meaning music he was creating as time went by. I have much more of "Dizzy" than just the beginning, he never quit being serious about creating new music that was linear with modern jazz, but not completely off the track; try this as one example; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj1j4mN7OT0 He reworks this tune in numerous boss ways, the same as "Night In Tunisia" is reworked. Here he is on the ambassador track doing what he was famous for doing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5tRGMHfKrE Miles went completely out of the bounds of what could be called jazz, but since it was Miles doing it, his new fans called it jazz, but his original fans didn't agree. I can't corroborate this because I talked to some of his original fans who were mentioned in his book. What we laughed and talked about personally, they would not admit publicly, but Miles trolley jumped the jazz track. We have too many fundamental disagreements in regard to the music to begin a comparison of those two; consequently we'll have to debate something else. Enjoy the music. PS I never heard Lee Morgan on "Blue Train" before now, it was all just part of the music, but now Lee Morgan is all I hear. |
**** I refuse to acknowledge that comment for reasons that should be quite apparent.**** Not apparent to me, so please explain. So, what are you saying? That jazz does not encompass more than bebop and hard bop? I hope not. O-10, your clips, as good as they are, make my point perfectly. There is really nothing new in that music beyond what was common in jazz through, I would say, the 50’s. Again, absolutely nothing wrong with that; it is what it is, but it is certainly not breaking any new ground. That reworking of Manteca is nothing new except that it has been arranged for big band in a fairly traditional way. Are you also suggesting that nothing of what Miles did from the 60’s forward can be definitively called jazz? Again, I hope not. 60’s Miles is much more advanced conceptually than anything Dizzy did. Not jazz? Really? This is not a criticism of Dizzy at all; he stayed in his comfort zone like most musicians, even many of the greats, did. If you do agree that 60’s Miles IS jazz, please post something by Dizzy that shows that kind of harmonic and/or rhythmic sophistication and forward looking attitude. **** We have too many fundamental disagreements in regard to the music to begin a comparison of those two; consequently we’ll have to debate something else.**** With all due respect, then why do you propose such comparisons to begin with if you are not willing to, at least, give the discussion a shot? |
**** ....when we look at jazz, unless we accept the premise that it encompasses more than bebop and hard bop, then there is no need for further discussion. **** That statement implies that I'm so narrow minded, I can only accept "bebop" and "hard bop" as jazz. If that was the case, there would be no need for further discussion. |
O-10, personally, I don’t see the need to personalize a comment like that. I, and I’m sure strateahed as well, were not implying that you are narrow minded. However, it is relevant to the overall comment that I think he was making and to my recent one. I also think that since you were the person suggesting these comparisons, it’s relevance also has to do with a comment that you have made many times to the effect that your frame of reference is pretty much exclusive to what you consider the beginning of "modern jazz": bebop (Bird) and then hardbop. As always, if any discussion is to have any real meaning then I think we should strive for the most clarity possible; otherwise, there will be a sense that we are always guessing about what the writer is saying. Example: In your comparison of Dizzy and Miles you seem to be suggesting that the fact that Miles "strayed away" from jazz as it was accepted until then and into his electric projects (non-jazz?) somehow lowers his standing relative to others simply by virtue of that fact. What about his work up until then, relative to what others like Dizzy were doing? Furthermore, Miles was doing stuff in the 60s (what many consider the best band ever in jazz) that was unlike anything Dizzy ever did and was not like his electric stuff at all; stuff generally considered "post-bop". So, what does the fact that he went on to venture into what some may not call jazz have to do with anything relative to Dizzy or anyone else? Personally, I don’t care whether it’s considered jazz by some or not; some of it is interesting music and that’s all that matters. You stated that the "exercise" of the comparison could be interesting. I think it could be...with a little more focus and clarity. Just some potential food for thought. Regards. |
Frogman, you said, quote '
He had A LOT of technique and speed; probably more than Miles. But he never sounded like he could play softly and controlled like Miles could.' I am well aware that you are professional, but to my untrained ears Dizzy always sounded like he has full and utmost control of his instrument, his tone has perfect and fine edge,so would you consider a thought that he could play, but perhaps, for whatever reason, choosed not to play many softly or lyrical stuff in a way like Miles played, or even better, Chet? By the way, how is this for 'softly and controlled playing? ''Olinga' from 'Portrait of Jenny' album, from 1970. https://youtu.be/BsYafl7o98M the above mentioned album, that I really like https://youtu.be/PHd1vCIOCUU or, what about this classic tune, at least for the part untill they decide to speed things up? 'Dark eyes', from 'For Musicians only' https://youtu.be/pPbT-96qHZc But,I could never called him uncapable of playing anything he wish, if he wishes to. |
