Jazz for aficionados

Let’s try to see things from other perspective. Question for Orpheus and Rok, others are welcome to share their opinion too....

Do you think that jazz was influnced with music from some other part of the world?
(if somehow, the notion that has african influences is bothering you)

As for myself, I could not say for sure, but only because I have so little knowledge about african music, and having in mind that all art is ’conected’ in some way, I would not opose that thought so strongly....

Here is some great brazilian music, played by Dizzy, from 1975.....is that jazz?

Somebody could ask the question what were the influences that helped create ’brazilian’ music as we know it....
Were there by any chnace some african influences?
Could they find the way to jazz by that route?
As you can see, evertything is conected, one way or another....

Back to music....Dizzy
Album is called ’Bahiana’

https://youtu.be/PC1Y54_YR7Y
https://youtu.be/iNl-UdAUvVA

Maybe somebody should have explained some things to McCoy Tyner, as well....
Becuse, the title of this composition is 'confusing'...

'Afro Blue' with Latin Jazz All stars, album is from (think)1998.

https://youtu.be/6rqIAWSorjs

Frogman, "Body and Soul" is not "Bebop", nor is Coleman Hawkins a Bebop musician, give me a break.

Music can not, nor should it ever be approached from an intellectual stance. Why would I speak to Billy Taylor or Wynton Marsalis about Bebop? When it was the first corner of jazz I explored.

While Dizzy could be a co-founder of Bebop, Bird was numeral uno.


Don't mean to be harsh, but you have submitted food for the garbage can.

Alex, presently, we are discussing "Bebop" specifically and not jazz in general.

Rok's major complaint is when you talk about jazz currently, anything goes; it's kind of like "Mulligan stew", throw anything in the pot and call it "Mulligan stew".

Well, The Frogman is right about one thing, My Burden is Great.

Africa:

There can be two logical points of view:  

(1) Humankind started in Africa, Therefore EVERYTHING human, is of AFRICAN Origin.   I am sure some guy on some day hummed a sound, or beat on a log or the ground, in some pattern, or chanted as a group. i.e., they did something that could be considered a musical event.

According to this logic, All music made by humans since then, is of African origin.   Jazz, Classical, Chinese Opera etc..   Coltrane, Beethoven, Vatroslav Lisinski, and even the noise maker Stravinsky.   All played African music.


(2)  Things are a lot more complicated.  The type of music that arose in the various areas of the world is based of many factors.   Lets stay with Black music in the Americas.

Black folks in places such as Cuba, Haiti, Brazil and other central and south american countries were in an entirely different situation than those in North America.   Three major factors account for this.

The climate
The nature of the economy
Religion of  Colonial power
The nature of Slavery within these countries

Countries in tropical climates with slaves, where the colonial power was of the Catholic religion, made little or no attempt to assimilate slaves into the society.  They kept a lot of the things they brought from Africa, including music, family units, and some religious practices.   These things are readily apparent in these countries today.

America is, and has always been an assimilation machine.  Millions of emigrants from Europe came here speaking German, Polish, Italian, Russian, Yiddish  and God knows what else.   How often do you hear them today?  They are American now.

Same with the African slaves.  They were taught Christianity.   Had to speak English.   Sang English church music   Families that did exist were broken up.   --- No African Music.   No African language.   No African Religion.  No African families    No African anything.

And last but not least, slavery in America was a property issue, not a racial one.   You could be black and free in America.  No so in other p[laces.  I have read that almost 30% of slaves in New Orleans were held by other black folks.

Sorry for the length.

Cheers

Alex, I thought those posts to be good examples of "Afro-Jazz", while what we were discussing was Afro input into the origination of "Bebop", which is different.

What you have posted is the Afro inclusion after the music had been developed, and it's very good. Diz has included the Afro from Brazil; Bahia specifically.

Peter King made a nice tribute to "Bird".

Great record and deserving of all the hoopla around it.  Very classy renditions of classic Cuban songs.  Renditions so good, like O-10's bouillabaisse, that even it's one flaw (for me) couldn't do significant damage to the music.  Why, oh why, did Ry Cooder have to play slide  guitar on it?!  Ego?  Who knows.  He deserves tremendous credit for conceiving this project and making it all happen, but to take traditional music like this and inject a completely non-traditional, non-idiomatic sound into the mix is a little akin to playing a sitar in a blues tune.  There are times when things sound a little Hawaiian because of that slide guitar; weird.  Still, beautiful record.  

Before the Cuban All-Stars simple trios of vocalists playing only guitar, maracas, guiro and perhaps one other percussion instrument was very common in traditional Cuban music.  Founded in the 1920's Trio Matamoros, well before Buena Vista, played and sang "son" and "guajiras" (Cuban "country music"): 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LfdwBDo2jqA

The "rumba", with its more obvious African influence would be one more of the influences (there were several) that would blend with son and guajira to create the "fusion" what today many refer to as salsa or timba.  It should be pointed out that "salsa" what many consider "Latin music" is really a product of the mentioned Cuban styles and American music:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m-9JLuvoSPI

At its most basic, what you and Rok don't seem to be able to grasp (and, actually, at this point of the protracted "argument", I believe its more a case of not wanting to) is the simple fact that the evolution of music forms is a continuum; they are not discreet separated steps.  As Alex correctly points out its all connected.  Do you really think that Bebop simply sprung up without connections to what came before it?  If you can't understand why something like Coleman Hawkins' famous and groundbreaking recording of Body And Soul with the departure from a traditional (swing) improvisation style, to the much more angular with advanced harmonic approach, then all I can say is that you have a lot more to consider; but, we knew that.  

**** Music can not, nor should it ever be approached from an intellectual stance. ****

False.  The enjoyment of music, NO, you are correct; not entirely, anyway.  That's  personal and if a particular listener happens to like something I consider bad for whatever reason, then so be it.  The analysis of music?  YES, YES, and YES.  And analyze is what we are doing with this topic.

**** Why would I speak to Billy Taylor or Wynton Marsalis about Bebop? When it was the first corner of jazz I explored. ****

BINGO!!!!!  We are finally getting somewhere.  Answer?  Because, as someone no longer posting here (yes, one of those) once wrote: it seems that it is always about you, O-10.  Why should it matter one bit that bebop was the "first corner of jazz that you explored"?  Why is it that you think your own necessarily limited experience with this means that this is the universal truth about such a complicated topic?  No offense meant, but....man! 

Rok, nice try, but most of what you wrote has little if anything to do with what we are discussing.  Beethoven?  Really?  Kindly explain where ANY significant African influence or exposure to, of any kind, would have existed in Beethoven'a sphere of influence to have, well.....influenced him.  Obviously, none.  Re you "logical point of view #2":

African slaves were NOT stripped of everything African.  In fact,  New Orleans, the birth place of jazz, was the only place where they were allowed to keep their drums.  So......duh!  You don't want to consider any of this?  That's fine; believe what you will.  Much more that can be said on the subject, but as Forest Gump so succinctly said: "I'm pretty tired, I think I'll go home now".  

I feel better now 😀

**** Same with the African slaves. They were taught Christianity. Had to speak English. Sang English church music Families that did exist were broken up. --- No African Music. No African language. No African Religion. No African families No African anything. ****

Sorry, not true. Well documented in many other sources besides this one:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Voodoo

From the same article:

++The enslaved community quickly outnumbered white European colonists. The French colony was not a stable society when the enslaved Africans arrived, and the newly arrived Africans dominated the slave community. According to a census of 1731-1732, the ratio of enslaved Africans to European settlers was more than two to one.[3] As a relatively small number of colonists were planters and slaveholders, the Africans were held in large groups, which enabled their preservation of African indigenous practices and culture.[4] Unlike in the Upper South and other parts of British Colonial American, where different groups were brought together and slave families were frequently divided among different plantations, in southern Louisiana families, cultures and languages were kept more intact.[5]++

Since all this is clearly becoming very tiresome, I would like to try and resolve it this way:

There is a huge amount that has been written and stated on these topics by (imo) legions (literally) of authoritative sources that supports my point of view; not difficult to find this info at all.  It would defy logic that if there was any validity to the counter-argument that there would be, at least, SOMETHING written SOMEWHERE to support the opposing point of view.  I hope that we can, at least, agree that our humble little playground of a thread is not the only place where disagreement has been expressed; if there is any.  I pose a challenge:  let's see that material; kindly post some of it.  I don't have a problem with being proved wrong and would welcome it.  

What does Voodoo have to do with "Bebop"?

OP:

New name is in order.  Let's Christen him 'The Wiki-Man'.   Without wiki he has no clue.   Hell, even with wiki he is clueless. He does not have any life experiences to call upon, only Google and Wiki, so they can make his arguments for him.  He even has to Google Cuba!!!  Sad.

Cheers

Chuck Berry died.   The real King of Rock and Roll.

Cheers

About that challenge?  I suppose it's safer to grab at straws.  

You want me to prove a negative.   Prove that there is no African influence.  That's like proving audiophiles can't hear wire.  No no.   You show the PROOF that Jazz is of African origin.   Show musical examples.  Post a clip, say from the Blue Note era, and point out the African influence.  

You have let your arrogance write a check, the facts can't cash.   Forget Wiki and all that agenda driven crap.   Show us the music.   You are a pro, this should be easy.

Cheers

It IS easy and it’s been done here time and time again. You just can’t grasp the concept of hear the proof. Reasons why? I’ve got a pretty good idea by now; some are obvious, some not so much, but best not to go there. ONE article, ONE intelligent comment supporting your point of view ANYWHERE in print or sound record. JUST ONE.....ANYWHERE. That vs. all the hundreds of writings and statements by musicians and musicologists, all the books and text books on the subject....just ONE, Rok. Surely you can find one. Who knew you were such a groundbreaking and myth-shattering genius on the topic?  Just who is being arrogant here?  Just ONE, Rok. Lay it on us, please.

You made the statement. (African influence in Jazz)   You now should show us why you made it.   I know, I won't get it.   I know, it will be over my head.   I know, only a school-trained musician like yourself would be able to hear it, but just this once,  step down from music Olympus and humor us mortals.

Cheers

I have posted several clips of commentary and articles and how it all relates to everything (well, almost everything; not Bolero ☺️) that has been posted here many times.  Actually, your man Wynton did a pretty good job of explaining it all and it applies to most of what has been posted here.  So, take your pick of the examples.  Why don't you start with Wynton? What is really fascinating here is how you personalize all this.  It's not just me that is saying this.  It's everyone else too; except you.  I believe the onus is on you; if you want to go down that road.  Either way, fine with me.

Lay it on me dude, I want to hear it too; the afro in the Bebop, before Diz added it onto the Rebop and called it "Afrobop". But since he did it without consulting the "Bird" that would make it "illegitimate", and not worthy of my consideration.

Definitely not African, this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uM9ks7AhSw&ab_channel=EditionRecords

Daniel Herskedal :

Listening to this, I thought I was in a big black pot, filled with water and veggies, in the middle on a village in the Congo.  Around supper time.

Cheers

I like to listen to stuff like this, but would never actually buy it.

Thanks, Ghosthouse.  Right back at you:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zPQdXN7wZcM

Hey, could this be traced back to Africa? 😉:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Acc_QHJ9Rvw

Rok, what did you think of the Billy Taylor, Duke (2:40) and Wynton comments?  In case you missed them the first time:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2qteYQy_8qk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmvaZqr6RFY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5nU82xdMjA

Btw, I hope they don't forget to put some hot sauce in the pot 😛

More interesting reading for the inquisitive:

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/g/gioia-jazz.html

Ghosthouse, that reminded me of when I was on this old steam locomotive puffing across the Congo; I can still see the natives waving as we pass and elephants screeching in the distance.

"Wikiman" I have lived jazz for my entire life, I don't need any musicians to tell me about it; especially bourgeois musicians, regardless how accomplished. I knew African American musicians who could not even read music, but they were able to express the deepest pains of a race of people who at one time did not even belong to themselves.

O-10:

You are wasting time trying to reason with The Wikiman.   My Grandmother, bless her heart, used to always say,"there is such a thing as too much education".  Or maybe 'education' that was not properly understood.

This man puts his faith in wiki writers, when as a pro, he should know better.

Maybe if I posted a few 'authoritative' clippings from Castro's newspaper he would get the point.   

All this reminds me of Hank Arron and Babe Ruth.   Ruth the greatest player of all time.   Hit 714 home runs.  WOW!!    The along comes Arron.  As he closed in on the Babe, the media was going crazy.   Will he, can he??

The day after Arron broke the Babe, for the first time in my life I begin to hear the media talk about a Japanese player, last name was OH.  He had 900 or some such number of home runs in the Japanese leagues.

WTF???   Who the hell, is OH?   Where did he come from?   Well, according to the 'authoritative media', he is actually the REAL home run king of pro baseball.

Moral:   It can be ANYONE except black Americans.   This was very important to a large number of people of that era.  Can't be over stated.

Back in the 20's when white folks claimed they created Jazz, there was no mention of Africa then.

If every thing that has happened in Jazz.   I mean EVERYTHING had happened just as it did, down to each note ever played, with one exception:   All the people were white, we would not be having any talk of Africa.   The racists view is that we carry everything around in our genes.

If the wiki site goes down, The Wiki-man will be speechless and thoughtless.

Cheers

Rok, your post hit the nail dead on the head; there is nothing I can add or subtract.

"I just thank God it's all over," said Aaron, who endured months of media interviews, near-constant scrutiny, and death threats and hate mail. He had hired a bodyguard, needed to find temporary living quarters in Atlanta, and registered under a false name at hotels on the road.

Although I have never been into any kind of music other than jazz, Chuck Berry has been with me all my life; or every since school when all the other kids were into Rock and Roll, which meant Chuck Berry's "Maybellene".

I recall sneaking into the back door of the "Cosmopolitan", when I was 16, which was a club in E. St. Louis he played often. The only thing I remember is "women", all shapes and colors; where ever there was Chuck Berry, there was women.

While Chuck Berry traveled all over the world, St. Louis was his home, and he always came back.



        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opG44Eqea6g


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1eI4EH-DRg


When somebody like Chuck Berry dies, a person doesn't realize how much Chuck Berry was a part of that person's (my) life as he aged through the years; my eyes are filled with tears now, but I know we shall meet again in a better place.

Chuck Berry:

King of the music that was young and fun.  Teenage romance and big, fast, over the top American cars.   I will always be thankful I was young during those days.

Of course this was before the drug-addicted, angry,  anti-romance stuff called 'Rock' came along.   Rock is to Rock & Roll, what some of this current so-called Jazz, is to  real Jazz.

Great Loss.

Cheers

You guys can go ahead and keep living in your fantasy worlds as concerns the history of this music; too bad. Now, to some of the more personal stuff; and, I bring this up only to point out how convoluted and disingenuous your chains of thought and reasoning tend to be. In order to illustrate what I am talking about lets look at some facts; all verifiable. Shall we?

For four years, and multiple times, Rok, you have quoted and/or linked to Wiki. You, O-10, not only did the same (and still do), but did so in a manner that often made it seem like you were the author of the comments. What your real intentions were don’t really concern me. I pointed out that when quoting Wiki it was appropriate to disclose this. After considerable indignation and sarcasm you stated that going forward you would disclose the source of your comments if they weren’t your own thoughts. Over the course of the same four years, NOT ONCE, did I quote or link to Wiki. Now, fast forward to the present:

I made TWO recent references to Wiki for the first time ever, and AS I POINTED OUT in one post, these were two (!) Wiki articles that I felt had merit. What happens? You guys, since you have little of substance to say on the core topic, attack me for the use of Wiki. Now, THAT makes a lot of sense, no? Given the aforementioned and the sheer amount of informed opinion that disputes your positions there can only be two possible reasons as to why you behave this way as far as I am concerned: it’s all a big put-on on your parts, or there is some kind of deficiency in the ability to reason and process information. Still waiting for thoughts on the clips of comments that I posted and most recent article (not Wiki, btw 😅)

I found that article to be quite informative, saw nothing that could be considered as lie or perhaps someone's agenda?
Correct me if I am wrong?
Just a thought, I believe that nobody thinks that 'bop' or any other art form 'came out of the blue' ?
Or do you?

Chuck Berry 10/18/26 - 3/18/17.
Looks like 2017 is going to continue apace as 2016.
Nobody getting any younger.

Back to Memphis - Chuck Berry
I’ve been struggling up here, child, trying to make a living
Everybody wants to take, nobody like giving
I wish I was in Memphis back home there with my Mama
The only clothes I got left that ain’t rags is my pajamas
No brotherly love, no help, no danger
Just a great big town full of cold hearted strangers

I went hungry in New York and Chicago was no better
But today, my dear mother wrote and told me in her letter
Son, come back to Memphis and live here with your Mama
You can walk down Beale Street, honey, wearing your pajamas
You know home folks here, we let do just what you want to
And I born you and raised you right here on the corner

I’m going to leave here in the morning and walk down to the station
I’ve got just enough money to pay my transportation
I’m going back to Memphis, back home with my Mama
If I have to ride that bus barefooted in pajamas
Back home in Memphis, no moaning and groaning
I know everything will be all right in the morning

You can walk down Beale Street wearing your pajamas....
Now THOSE are some great lyrics. Always put a smile on my face hearing them.

Thanks, Chuck. RIP

***** Only question about any rightwingnut is whether they hate reality more than truth or vice-versa .*****

Well, I guess The Wiki-man understood that nugget of wisdom.

What time does that plane to France leave??   Perfect country for this guy.

Cheers

"Teenage romance and big, fast, over the top American cars. I will always be thankful I was young during those days."

You got that right, I was just thinking of the beautiful "Venita"; those girls will always stay ever so beautiful in your memory; I feel like I can go back there and she will be no less beautiful, still 16.

But I want a different car every other day.

***** Just a thought, I believe that nobody thinks that 'bop' or any other art form 'came out of the blue' ?
Or do you?*****

Black people are in this country since before 1619.  First birth of African child around 1613.(wiki)    Bop started around the mid 40's.   That' a span of 326 years.   That's longer than the USA has been a Country.

'Out of the Blue' Indeed!!

Cheers

Wikiman, you really must demand that your minions do their home work before they weigh-in.

Cheers

Rok, you need some blasting powder and a drill.

Bop that sounds like music, and just any run of the mill sound called Bop are two entirely different things; "Bird's" Bop is listenable.

More for the inquisitive.  Fascinating:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LBYpYCPUX-M

LAY OFF THE "WIKIMAN" JUICE.

Fats Waller

Not new, but new to me.  Pretty good stuff by way of France...bebop, even.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY9sR36FtoU&ab_channel=BunnyBrunel-Topic

Today's Antidote:

Oscar Peterson Trio -- NIGHT TRAIN

After all that Wiki BS, nothing like Oscar to clear the air.   Back to what's good and true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffnx4wfZUY8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s4UX0E3chI

Cheers

Apologies for the obvious African influence.