I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
House party is definitely one of the best jams ever; I believe I could make a hit record with the lineup like he had on that one. Good times forever! Keep em comin.
Why were all the East Coast guys black and all the West Coast guys white?
Answer: The East, primarily NYC, was Mecca for all musicians, esp those coming from the Mid-West and the South. NYC was the final destination for the arts long before LA and the West Coast.
So, if I were a second rate horn player where would I go to earn fame and fortune? I could go to NYC and butt heads with Miles, Hubbard, Morgan, Dizzy, sticking with trumpets, but the same applies to all instruments and musicians.
OR
I could go to LA where Jazz had no history or establishment and try my luck there. Also no large Black audiences to please. It being the land of the movies, most folks there were air heads anyway. Or course we know that "genres" are created to fit players. How else do we explain a guy like Brubeck playing 'West Coast jazz'? I think he would have liked nothing better than to be top dog with the East Coast, or 'Real Jazz' crowd, but everyone has to eat.
At one time the Jazz scene in Southwest Idaho was jumping. I think it was called no-coast Jazz. Don't get me started on Nebraska Bop!
The logical, or illogical, extension of this is Benny Goodman being crowned "The King Of Jazz." This at a time when almost any Jazz giant you can name was alive and playing.
Rok, I am afraid that your "opinion" is based on some inaccuracies and mistaken assumptions; I am not sure where to start. I hope that pointing these out is not felt to be breaking some "detente" and I'm sure you will appreciate some accuracy.
****Why were all the East Coast guys black and all the West Coast guys white?****
While it is true that most practicioners of "West Coast Jazz" were white, not "all" were; Buddy Collette, Benny Carter, Chico Hamilton and Red Callender, to name a few, were black.
****So, if I were a second rate horn player where would I go to earn fame and fortune? I could go to LA where Jazz had no history or establishment****
The idea that only second rate players were found in LA is absolutely not true and very unfair to the many great players who hailed from LA and were part of a movement in jazz that reflected a different stylistic aesthetic from that of the East Coast and not a reflection of lesser quality. Additionally, it is not true that in LA jazz had no history or establishment. There had always been a vibrant Jazz scene in LA with traditional jazz playing a very prominent role. Even your fave Jelly Roll lived in LA for many years.
LA was, in fact, were many great musicians went to "gain fortune". Many of the great LA jazz players were also very successful session players in the LA movie studios recording for the countless movie scores being produced. Unfortunately, that scene was racially segregated during the 40s and 50s, but players/arrangers like Benny Carter were able to change that situation for themselves and all that followed. There is an interesting connection between the existence of the Hollywood scene and the West Coast Jazz style. In keeping with, and perhaps as a result of, the demands of the movie industry for very well crafted and extended compositions for their movie scores, the West Coast Jazz style highlights the compositional elements of the music much more than the East Coast (hard)bop style which is typically that of a simple pass through the melody followed by improvised solos. The West Coast style features more intricate compositions with elements of Classical counterpoint and it was the first time that the very demanding concept of a jazz ensemble without a chordal instrument (piano, organ, guitar) was implemented; all this with a typically softer ("cool") instrumental tone approach as opposed to the harder edged East Coast style. Does this make it jazz that is less "real" and the other more real? Since when do the French decide what is real jazz? 😊
Oh, and btw, Benny Goodman was never crowned "King Of Jazz", he was first called "King Of Swing" in 1936; and for good reason. Swing (a very specific style of jazz) and the Swing Era was touched off by Benny Goodman well before most of the great players one can name. For perspective's sake, Bird recorded his first record in 1944.
Frogman, I am glad that you have so eloquently pointed some of the high points of West Coast Jazz. For what is worth, I have noticed that I am buying more and more of such music, it has many hidden gems. Will post some as well.
Regarding Chet Baker, I did not like the article very much, but thats not important. Imho, aldo his playing had its ’limitations’, he has menaged to produce some of the most beautiful and haunting music in jazz, perhaps in music in general. Furthermore I belive that that fact alone stand as something that cant be overlooked and also that cant be accidental. So, for sure that my opinion and taste are subjective, but his music (or his interpretation) in some points stand above of anything simmilar that I might have heard
*****
Oh, and btw, Benny Goodman was never crowned "King Of Jazz", he was first called "King Of Swing" in 1936; and for good reason. Swing (a very specific style of jazz) and the Swing Era was touched off by Benny Goodman well before most of the great players one can name. For perspective's sake, Bird recorded his first record in 1944.*****
Goodman is one of the Good Guys of Jazz. He did not call himself the King of anything. The media did that. As our President keeps telling us, the are the biggest liars on the planet.
But anyway, the Ken Burns Jazz set tells of how they wanted to make Goodman the 'King' of Jazz, but that was too far even for the biggest liars, so they settled for Kng of Swing.
Bird recorded in 19944? That was sort of late in the recorded history of Jazz. Think of all the guys whose careers were interrupted by the war, and continued while in uniform.
As Wynton said in the Ken Burns project,"if you are talking about Jazz, you're talking about race".
Frogman, and Rok, when I was in LA, I heard music at the clubs that was comparable to the best of Blue Note, by musicians unknown to me. I attributed this to the fact that musicians do not have to leave LA in order to make a living. Although I was in LA, the music was not West Coast Jazz. When I was in Jamaica, while the music at the hotel was reggae, the people (most Jamaicans) preferred jazz. In both cases, assumptions would be wrong.
I noticed Rok constantly picks music from what we call "The Golden Age of Jazz". Music is not made in a vacuum, musicians have to draw inspiration from somewhere. That "Golden Age" also occurred at the same time as the best times in many cities. Chicago was three vibrant cities at once in the 50's and 60's; rich north side, culture on the lake, and a vibrant south side that no longer exists, Detroit was like the "Emerald City of Oz". St. Louis consisted of Downtown, E. St. Louis, and North St. Louis; three diverse areas that featured live jazz; "bleak" is the most dominant feature of those areas now. There was a certain "vibe" and excitement in each city that generated something for musicians to draw from.
Much of the latest music is "disonant"; not in the strict definition of the word, but it lacks a coherent theme that you can feel and identify with; the musician can't find something outside of himself to draw inspiration from; therefore his music is without life.
*****
Much of the latest music is "disonant"; not in the strict definition of the word, but it lacks a coherent theme that you can feel and identify with; the musician can't find something outside of himself to draw inspiration from; therefore his music is without life.*****
I think you just nailed it. My thoughts exactly. No wonder you be op.
"Our president keeps telling us the media is the biggest liar on the planet"; While that's true, I'm wandering how long is it going to take for him to switch and become part of the lie, just like the last president; can you say "Oligarchs rule".
I finally got around to looking at, or should I say completing "One Night With Blue Note". I found it amazing how all those musicians put on such outstanding performances as though it was just another day at the office; they made it look so easy.
This is a little bit different; those posts concerning Rok's post, were meant "exclusively" for Rok; that's because I know what he's talking about, and there is no disagreement. If this is "off topic", it's because this topic is more important.
O-10, this is precisely the point when this thread starts to get in trouble. As far as I am concerned there is no room on a thread like this for making a comment "exclusively" for a specific poster; especially when others have been part of the same discussion. Seems to that if one wants to communicate "exclusively" one should send a pm. It also seems to me that this is a way to keep different viewpoints out of the discussion; not good. Btw, I don't agree with your comments re "recent music" and its supposed "lack of coherence". Would love to discuss this further and have everyone participate; or, would you prefer a pm?
All this in the interest of having a more robust and healthier thread.
I'm all for an open discussion in regard to the music. I suggest we set time spans, and use music to specify exactly what we are referring to, for example; 50's and 60's for old music, and you and Acman can specify current music. But before we start, not all current music will apply to my allegations of not having a theme, just most.
*****My definition of "Jazz" is that music that came after the "Bird"; he was the most influential man in the history of jazz.*****
Well, I tend to think Pops was the most influential man in Jazz. Certainly the most Important. And he came BEFORE bird, so I will give you the chance to 'rephrase' :). For some reason I never took to Bird or Dizzy. The sound quality of their records may be to blame for that.
*****The current music people call jazz is lost, it's like a river looking for an ocean, meandering all over the place. *****
Well said. They never find the ocean, just a stagnant lake.
Fellow aficionados, I have stated that the output of good jazz was affected by adverse economic events. I see very bad economic events that occurred from 2006 through 2008, and then again from 2010 through 2012. These events were like a fire storm for the lower middle class. Although they affected the "upper middle class", they were able to weather the storm.
These events didn't spare any geographical area. While I observed events that were occurring in my neck of the woods, such as large shopping malls going down, I'm certain these same events happened in your neck of the woods. These events occurred because so many people who kept those malls afloat, were left with very little "discretionary income."
Discretionary income is the amount of an individual's income that is left for spending, investing or saving after paying taxes and paying for personal necessities, such as food, shelter and clothing. Discretionary income includes money spent on luxury items, vacations, and nonessential goods and services.
Places where live jazz is played, are the sources of new musicians income, as well as new ideas for music. I recall a place I went to on the weekends that featured a group that centered around an African finger piano. While the instrument was unusual, the musician's ideas were so creative, that I haven't heard anything like it before nor since. That place had to close because of a business downturn. I have mentioned things that occurred in and around St. Louis, and Rok has countered as though these events just occurred in this area. When I mention these events, I am certain that similar events occurred all over the United States of America, at that same time, that affected the same economic "strata".
Rok, mentioned the news, "Do you watch the evening news"? I used to watch the evening news religiously, but when I realized how rarely it concerns me, I quit watching so much. The news is most important to the wealthy, my economic strata is non existent in a general sort of way.
If you are "upper middle class" economically, you weathered those storms that occurred in the four years I mentioned prior to now, but you should be feeling some of the effects now; a lot of things you didn't replace, need replacing now. I also notice strange things in the"Agoner" community; many are struggling to stay in the "high end", while others can buy a 100K amp as easy as buying a bag of popcorn. Also, high end names have gone way up in price, more than inflation can account for.
What does all of that have to do with music? What does all of that have to do with you? As time goes by you will discover these are not normal times, and all of that will affect you. My time began in 2006, and it's affects are still in play; that's very important to allegations I've made concerning the adverse effects of economics to music. I won't provide examples because all the varied cause and effects speak for themselves.
Rok, you and a lot of other people say the same thing; while It's not true for me personally, I can understand the validity of what you say.
In regard to "Bird" and "Diz", it's also true for you as well as me, that's manifested in all the "modern jazz" you like that they are responsible for. Think about all the musicians you like who will give "Bird" or "Diz" credit for their way of thinking about music.
I will go back through your posts of "Pops" if I have time, because your posts were of music that he made, while my awareness of him has been as an entertainer; think about old movie clips.
Rok, this represents some of the best jazz of 2016, and I'm sure, that according to Frogman, if I could live very well without it, there is something wrong with my taste in jazz. I think I have already given a description of this music before I even heard it. Now we can get his take on this music.
If this ain't a river looking for an ocean, I don't know what is, it sounds like lost people trying to find their way; lets hear what Frogman has to say about this most current music.
It's not a river looking for an ocean, it's not even water looking for a river, it's like clouds on a sunny day, in the middle of a severe drough,t trying to come together to create rain.
And to think Blanchard is from New Orleans. Childhood friend of Wynton, Played with Blakey. The reincarnation of Pops. WTF!!!
And it was in Rotterdam. They look to the USA to show the way in Jazz.
When the drummer took the stage wearing a tank top, I knew all I needed to know. You can tell a lot by how they dress.
I do have him on CD doing better things. Maybe I'll post some of his stuff.
BTW, he is huge in movie music. Sad day in The Big Easy.
Rok, you have no idea how sad current music is, until you compare it with that Blue Note DVD.
When I got off topic, that got a quick response; but off topic or on topic, we still have no more regular "aficionados" than we do now. When you look at the music forum, the reasons are quite apparent, plus, this is primarily an "audiophile", hangout, not music. When people have 10 different copies of "Kind Of Blue" and "Waltz with me Debbie" ( that last title might be wrong) but you get my drift.
While I have my faults, it seems to me, that it has been stated that if I bent myself around like a pretzel, we would have more regular contributors. I noticed when I stayed on topic for the longest, there were no new names. Now the present topic is old, and new music. Someone introduced some new music that I thought was good; now I didn't say that it was 100% in regard to old and new music, but the general difference is quite apparent.
Never the less, we continue to express our opinions and plod along.
Old and new do not refer to the date the music is created, played or recorded. Old and new refer to a style of music. As Jelly Roll said, Jazz is a way, or style, of playing music. That's why tunes like 'Nature Boy' and 'When Johnny Comes Marching Home', can be Jazz tunes.
The notion / sense, that Jazz must 'progress' or 'Improve' or move on to something Mo' Better is the major problem. It is only in the Jazz genre that we have this situation.
Classical Orchestras all over the world play music hundreds of years old everyday. The music is considered the heights of western civilization. Country singers wish they could be like Hank Williams or Dottie West. Folks in the mountains still worship Bill Monroe.
But in Jazz, we must have New Jazz. Mo' better Jazz. 'Modern' Jazz. And if you can't play a lick, 'Free' Jazz.
I listened to the Jazz music that I do, because it is the best created so far. On my rack, Miles sits right next to Mozart. Both, Giants in their genre.
I could junk Mozart in favor of Philip Glass. After all, his music is 'Modern'. Yeah right.
**** you have no idea how sad current music is ****
Imo, the only sad thing is how this thread has managed, for three or four years, to return over and over again to the same tired themes that are competely off the wall and not based on the reality of all that is widely considered truth in and about music. The "it's subjective" argument simply doesn't wash when it comes to very fundamental considerations about music and not simply preferred styles. Don't you two guys have something new to say? Needless to say, I don't agree with the comment about "how sad current music is" anymore than I agree with the idea that "most current music has no coherence or themes". Where's the substance to back up those comments? Now, although it should be obvious, I should point out that had I not been included in O-10's diatribe in a way that is inappropriate and at least a little provocative, I would have ignored and not responded to the commentary in the last seven posts or so eventhough I consider most of it no more than bs. Even worse, bs that ignores musical values and even a specific performance in order to make the commentary serve an e-social agenda.
O-10, as OP, and as an OP that wants a leadership role in the thread, imo, your style of leadership leaves a lot to be desired. Do you really think that I or anyone would be remotely interested in expressing an opinion about a performance that you have already panned without offering a single detail as to why you feel it needs to be panned.
**** Never the less, we continue to express our opinions and plod along. ****
And I just expressed mine. If you would prefer a more polite version in the future please consider the above and don't speak for me. "plod along"....exactly; sad.
Ghosthouse, if you're out there, check out the guitar player in the Blanchard clip; interesting player.
Hello @frogman Coincidentally, I was checking in briefly this morning. Been spending more time lately on Head-fi.org. Anyway, I will check out that GITarr player on the Blanchard clip. Still owe Alex a listen to his suggestions.
In support of your position, I respect the heck out of Orpheus' and Rok's depth of knowledge about and enthusiasm for "old school jazz" but seems needlessly restrictive to draw a circle around that and dismiss content that falls outside it...regardless of wardrobe.
I'd also suggest time has exerted a filtering effect making more obvious the great material produced "back in the day". BUT I suspect, living in the moment back then, there would have been an equal amount of "sad stuff" cluttering up the musical landscape. We don't have the perspective provided by the passage of time to accurately assess all contemporary jazz. Let's talk about it again 50 years down the road.
Frogman, the Bru-Ha man; Rok made a short comment about the news, I responded with a "short" comment, Frogman took that opportunity to blame those two comments for the fact that it hasn't rained new contributors to this thread; he was wrong and he had to have a goat to scape.
Rok, has consistently come up with "new-old" music; that's good music by the old masters that eluded me; Gene Harris isn't new, but the music Rok presented by him is new to me. Frogman, you are beating a dead horse, when are you going to bury him.
Maybe you should be president; they are professionals at playing "The Blame Game", but none of them ever roll up their sleeves and solve any problems. Don't misunderstand me, new people for this thread might be a dead horse, but blaming me isn't going to make anything better.
**** The notion / sense, that Jazz must 'progress' or 'Improve' or move on to something Mo' Better is the major problem. It is only in the Jazz genre that we have this situation. ****
Always hated the term "progressive" as used in political circles. I don't believe anyone has used it here re music; and certainly not the term "improve". Evolve, yes. But to conflate that with "improve" is very telling of the mindset of blind protectionism that wants to draw that circle around a certain period in the music. Btw, this is another one of the themes that is continually misrepresented here and needs to be corrected. As was pointed out, "déjà vu all over again"... and again, and again.
**** I could junk Mozart in favor of Philip Glass. After all, his music is 'Modern'. Yeah right ****
That's like saying "I could junk Bird in favor of Kenny G"; while ignoring all the great modern jazz artists because, just as during the "Golden Age", there are some knuckleheads out there producing crap. See, that's the real problem, too many broad strokes and not enough depth of thinking about all this. Of course, you are mistaken about how the notion applies to other genres. All music (all art) evolves and is widely recognized to do so. You don't like the notion and that is why you don't like a Classical music that has evolved beyond Mozart and Beethoven. It is ideas like "most current music lacks life" that are so ridiculous and need to be countered. It is not that the music lacks life and coherence; it is that some listeners are locked in a narrow sphere of awareness and are of a personality type that needs that idea as a security blanket. "Knowledge" that has notions like that as a backdrop is questionable at best.
O-10, yeah, yeah; but, nope, I don’t think so. As always, "Mars and Venus"; too bad. Btw, kindly explain (with example) where I "took that opportunity to blame those two comments for the fact that it hasn't rained new contributors to this thread".
Good for you. Nice Terrence Blanchard clips. I like them and very timely to the previous Blanchard "issue" and they go to the heart of the matter. Personally, I find the clip that O-10 posted infinitely more interesting. While I like the clips that you posted I don't see (hear) the point. Why should I listen to a hard-bop performance that offers nothing new compared to much of what Freddie Hubbard and Woody Shaw did decades previously and did it at a much higher artistic level; while I liked them, Blanchard is saying nothing new on the clips you posted. When I have dozens of Hubbard and Shaw recordings would I pull the Blanchard off the shelf? Unlikely. What O-10 posted held my interest if only to see where he was going and there were many truly interesting moments. Not once, while listening to the clips you posted, did I not know where he was going. What's the point of that?
All these new members we're suppose to gain on this thread is beginning to remind me of a "snipe hunt". The snipe only come out on a moonless night when it's black dark in the hinterlands beyond the edges of the woods.
My first time in the "country", Bill, Dave, and the fellows invited me to go on a "snipe hunt"; since they didn't invite just anybody to go on this hunt for the elusive snipe, I considered it an honor.
One dark night, they told me the snipe should be running on a night like this; we went out in the woods, way out in the woods. "Say guys, just how far do we have to walk to get to the snipe hunting ground"?
"we're almost there" Dave assured me. "Since you have been elected to be the one who bags the snipe, you take this "snipe bag", and hold it open when we tell you we done spotted one, and chasing him your way".
There I was, in a small clearing way out in the middle of the woods, when Dave yelled out "Snipe on the run".
I had the big bag open, just waiting for the snipe; I was listening too, because he had to make some kind of noise coming my way through the woods. That's when I remembered I forgot to ask how big the snipe was? "If he's too big, the fellows will come and help me", I told myself.
I waited, and waited without hearing a single sound; before I had heard them beating the bushes running the snipe out, but now there wasn't a single sound. After about a half an hour, I began to have serious doubts about the snipe. I know they wouldn't leave me out in the middle of the woods on a dark night holding a bag waiting for the snipe, or would they?
Now, those new members to this thread that Frogman assured me of, are beginning to remind me of the snipe; the only difference is, I'm not in the middle of the woods on a dark night.
Don't know what happened to the post. Agon gremlins I guess. This was it (one Goodman clip):
New, old, current, classic ...... whatever. Is it sincere and at a high artistic level? Is it say something fresh? Just a couple of things that came to mind:
It has so many musical elements that really float my boat; while the music is in Brazil, it also has African, Spanish, and Native Brazilian components (people who were there when the Europeans discovered Brazil) I like this complete album because of it's diversity and the fact that it's so together at the same time; the music speaks as a cohesive unit.
Frogman, just where are all these people you claimed would be dropping out of the sky if I never got off track? Are they coming from "Agon"? You must have a credible idea of a source. The people who posted under the various artists maybe?
I really don't expect for you to answer this because you are very selective about answering questions, but I thought I would try.
I would be glad to answer you, O-10. Look, it’s obvious that you and I live in very different universes, both as concerns music and as concerns interaction on a forum like this; not to mention other ways that are probably best left alone. Just look at how you have ignored what it was that started all this (I made it very clear) and how conveniently you pivoted to the subject of new posters. Huh?! You seem unwilling or incapable of understanding the important aspects of what I have said on the subject of new posters. All I can say on the subject now is that the series of posts that I mentioned earlier further make my case and prove my point. If that is all a little too abstract for you I can’t help you, but it is perfectly in keeping with our respective tastes in music.
Btw, I am glad you liked the Lewis clip. I am also relieved that you liked it since the significance of George Lewis in the history of this music is huge and anyone who doesn’t undertand this has no business claiming to be a jazz "aficionado". Thank goodness.
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