I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
My apologies Rok, it has absolutely nothing to do with "Japanese" theater, that's just a nickname they gave it, for being as phony as Japanese theater. I considered it to be a joke, but now I'm not so sure; there is a lot of theater, and it's for sure that's nothing to laugh about.
I bounced around on a lot of other threads to discover how many people on this forum were politically aware (informed), and I discovered next to zero. When you think about an "upper class" educated population of people who know next to nothing about what's going on in their own country, that's not good.
If there was anything "normal" about these times, I never would have brought these subjects up. I say "these" subjects, because there are many of them, and all relating to Washington DC. "All great empires crumbled from within". While that's not 100% true, it will be in this case.
You and I might be the only two people on this forum, that are even aware of the fact that at the very least, the citizens have to be concerned about what's going on in a Democracy, or it will cease to be a Democracy. When the attitude is "That's somebody else's job, not mine; my job is VTF, VTA and all that other "audiophile stuff". Well my job is "Jazz aficionado" but it also includes being an informed citizen, and when I know for a fact that something is drastically wrong, I wouldn't be a very good citizen if I didn't try to alert someone.
Actually Rok, "Saturday Night Raslin" would be a closer description than "Kabuki"; that's when they made all that noise in the ring, and went out for a drink together after the fight. Everybody has to pay more attention to what's going on.
On the subject of jazz, I liked that Freddie Hubbard; especially Hancock on piano. Most of the "offensive albums" were on the ECM label; they were the very good artists who decided to change drastically.
**** Some of us have been wandering why we don't have more regular posters; there are more reasons than we can think of, and many that we never thought of ......Whatever the reason, let me know when yall find out. ****
O-10, I respect your passion about the issues facing our democracy, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of your analysis. As concerns your passion about the more relevant (to this thread) issue of new posters, and since you asked, I would respectfully suggest that some of the comments in your last post are one example of why there aren't more regular posters. You asked, please don't shoot the messenger.
The Election: As bad as you might think things are now, they would be worst if she had won. She was the greater threat. Once he gets over the shock that he actually won, he will settle down.
New Posters: Why the obsession with new posters? The current posters are burden enough.
So sorry to burden you with an answer to your question:
A music producer does very much what a director does in the making of a film. A distinction should be made between the executive producer and the music producer when both are listed. The executive producer handles the financial aspects of the project. The music producer can be the person that conceives the project and chooses the backing musicians and arrangers (when necessary) when there is a featured soloist and the recording engineer unless there is one on staff in the case of an artist under contract. As discussed previously, producers have different styles; some choose to let the players do their thing and exercise little influence on the final product while some can be very controlling of every aspect of the process; choose the tunes and even the tempos. For many of the classic recordings discussed here there is relatively little "producing" that is required since there is usually only a rhythm section and horn front line involved in a pretty standard live-performance-like setup; or it could be as simple as a piano trio or solo piano. In these situations the producer may help choose the material and assist the engineer in developing how the recording will "present" the music. The producer may be chosen by the record label that the artist is under contract with or may be chosen by the artist to assist, manage and realize the artist’s vision for the project.
In the case of projects like many of the CTI recordings where the music is very "arranged" with the use of horn sections, string and woodwind sections, extra percussion and perhaps even backing vocalists it all becomes much more complicated. In many situations like these the producer’s vision can supersede the artist’s; of course, it is usually a combination of both. It should be easy to understand how going this route opens up many "cans of worms" on the way to the final product. A producer or record lable may have a certain sonic aesthetic in mind for their product which they feel can only be achieved by separating all the players or singers and putting each in separate "booths" where they are each isolated from each other and they listen to each other via headphones. This can work, depending on the skill of the engineer and quality of the studio, but the results are seldom as musically organic as they are when the musicians have some physical connection in the same room and can hear each other acoustically at least in part. Some music lends itself much more to complex production values. Imo, generally speaking, with jazz (particularly acoustic jazz) there occurs a kind of clash when there is complex production involved, while electric jazz and pop can really benefit from all the electronic tools available to musicians and producers; in these genres these tools can be considered and used as musical instruments themselves. Of course, it is the producer’s skill and musical integrity that determines whether these tools serve and benefit the music or do no more than create a mess.
Frogman, with all due respect, I could not care less if there are no more regular posters on this thread or not. Whether I could care less or not, it won't make any difference. When you and Learsfool did nothing but harass me, day after day, that made no difference, but now my comments make a difference.
If you just ignored my comments, they would make much less of a difference; it is you who are drawing attention to my comments. Comments are not meant for everyone who posts, but only those who are interested in such comments.
While it would be nice if we had all these posters, it ain't going to happen, not because of my comments, but because it hasn't happened in 3 years; Frogman, you are using my comments as a scapegoat for your dream of all these posters, when your best bet is to ignore my comments or respond to them, but you do neither. Now, I have to respond to your comment about my comment, when if you had made a comment in regard to music, I would respond to that, and we would be on your musical discussion, but now we are a long way from your musical discussion.
Ignoring a comment that's only apparently meant for one person is nothing new at all; for example, you and Learsfool could go on for days on a "classical" discussion, when this is a "jazz" thread, and I never objected. That comment would have drawn a short response, plus another comment on music would have been included; but look what we got now?
You got my intentions all wrong; they are neither Republican, or Democrat, but what's wrong when they get together behind closed doors. Every body knows what "Law and Order is", but it doesn't apply to the oligarchs who steal billions. Recently, I got a prescription filled that cost over $200. which would have cost $13. not long ago.
Things have gotten completely out of hand, and it's neither Democrat or Republican, it's about corruption and greed; now the rich are robbing the poor, and their doing it perfectly legal like, the way the rich always do everything. Vets were being robbed by high drug prices prescribed by the VA; but as long as the rich are robbing the poor, and doing it legally, because it has been approved by the politicians, it's OK.
People like me are called "Whistle Blowers". We didn't get protection from Barak Obama, and I don't think we'll get it from Donald Trump; we pay a high price for what we believe, but that's the cost of Democracy.
Thank you Frogman for making this post a necessity.
O-10, as always, this is a case of "Mars/Venus"; two very different outlooks, frames of reference and interpretations of reality. I could stress that it is you that keeps bringing up the subject of new posters, but I think it is more productive, since I DO care that there be more posters, to point out (WHEN ASKED BY YOU, YOURSELF) what I think the reasons are for why there aren’t more. Now you claim that you don’t care one way or the other. Convenient?; or just sad? Look, O-10, you want to control the exchanges in this thread; it just doesn’t work that way. You want to be able to express views that relate, directly or indirectly, to other or all ACTIVE participants here, but you want specific individuals to just "ignore" you. Really?! As has been suggested before, if you want to be "exclusive" with comments, especially comments with which you express some sort of "moral or intellectual superiority" over all other ACTIVE participants, don’t you think that the best way is to pm the individual that you want exclusivity with? Or, is your goal to force all the "non-exclusives" to witness your "superiority" by posting your comments in a PUBLIC forum while allowing no means to express other views other than your own? I hope that you are able to see the arrogance of this goal and I hope this is not the case.
Regards, and I hope we can get back to the subject of music without too much damage.
Btw, you being the OP, and if you care about the relevance of this thread, I would encourage you to go back over the past posts that you feel "harassed" you and hopefully the passage of time will help you understand how much you have misrepresented what really happened and was going on at the time.
Imo, one of the most beautifully produced records featuring a jazz artist. All the things that can become a "can of worms" in the hands of a lesser producer: the use of arrangements that use strings and woodwinds compliment the overall attitude of the music and, most importantly, the style of the soloist beautifully. George Avakian, producer.
Frogman, I know you're too young to remember this, but once upon a time there was a thing called a party line; this was when a number of people talked on the same line. If you picked up your phone and heard conversation, you simply hung up your phone. This is kind of the same thing; when somebody is addressing another person on this thread, you know that post isn't for you, and you simply ignore it; would that work for you. Just kidding, I know it won't, but I'm just trying to be creative, maybe you can come up with a better idea.
O-10, I stand by what I said on the subject and believe your attitude about this is misguided and self-serving. I was very clear about why I wrote what I did and I believe it was all very reasonable. In the meantime, a friendly suggestion: put aside your apparent need to keep these little squabbles alive, drop the subject and let the thread get back to what it is supposed to be about.
I do not own a tv and I dont read the papers, so, sometimes, some distraction about the subjects that are not conected to jazz are fine with me. No need to take the things so seriously, imho....
Ruby Braff 'Goes Girl Crazy' from 1958. with Hank Jones, Al Cohn, Jim Hall and others
Nice clips, Alex. Al Cohn on clarinet! ... new one for me. Very nice and relaxed playing in that early swing style that I like very much. Thanks for those.
No TV and no newspapers!? I would hate to think that you get your news and opinion on politics and social trends from this thread 😉. I agree with you that there is room for comments on those topics on this thread.....in theory.
As for the tv and papers, it may seem odd without them, at first, but if you try it for a week, I guarantee you will feel better. After all, if a man have love for facts,and knowledge in general, will not find them there...
If I a may return the joke, hope you are not suggesting that I should watch Fox news to get the latest opinions on politics?
As for the comments, I agree with you in sense that all participants should find a 'good measure' when expressing their views that might cause a bitter polemics with others who have different opinions on the same subject
Gorgeous rendition of "I've Grown Accustomed To Your Face" with Bud Shank and Bob Cooper sound wonderful. It is recordings like this that should put to rest the issue of wether West Coast Jazz is valid or not.
I take a different approach re educating myself about the political landscape. We are bombarded with "news" and opinion from both sides of the political spectrum and all steps in between. The vast majority of it is heavily biased. For me, the first step is to recognize that we, ourselves, bring our own biases to the table while often wanting to feel that we are "pure" and free of bias. While I make no claim of success, I prefer to work as much as possible on self-awareness of my biases and then read and absorb as much as possible of the information that is out there, from all sources. Learning to recognize our own biases helps a great deal in recognizing others' biases and helps to separate the facts from the bs and agenda-driven commentary. Regards.
Having biases is not necessarily a bad thing. One man's bias is another man's reaction to life experiences.
Alex: I try to do what you. I never watch the news on American television. I tend to watch news programs from Europe on the internet. France24, Sky News and German DW are the ones I watch most. The liars are present there also, but I can watch with a certain detachment, since their lies do not affect me. More entertaining.
Lies do affect you. Even if you know they are lying. I do not let them pollute my mind and thought process. The methods used by Goebbels and the boys at Pravda continue today around the world.
You just got to keep the faith, more "aficionados" than you can shake a stick at are on the way; just got to stick to the script and never get off subject.
I was sort of wary and apprehensive about this CD when deciding to buy it, having seen the word 'free' associated with some of the players, but then I noticed Wynton was on Trumpet. Now I asked myself, could Wynton be involved something that was not real Jazz? Nope, unless it was a duet with Miss battle.
That was a great post, Rok. I agree, biases are not necessarily a bad thing. The key and hard part is to learn to recognize them; especially in ourselves.
I was listening to Etta Jones, "Don't Go To Strangers" and it was sounding so good; that made me think of the fact that good music never gets old. I heard this in 65 for the first time, and it sounds just as good, if not better today, than when I heard it then.
Personnel: Etta Jones: vocals; Frank Wess: flute, tenor saxophone; Richard Wyands: piano; Skeeter Best: guitar; George Duvivier: bass; Roy Haynes: drums.
Not just the vocals, but every note was singing; that caused me to think about the musicians on that album; they are stellar. Sometime I don't listen to the musicians as much as I did today, but if you focus on the music, the album will sound even better.
No matter which bias we might have, there is something called 'Ethics'.
We are lucky enough that some great minds took lot of time and effort to come up with some principles. So, if you dont mind, I will post some, from one 'German guy.' (perhaps Rok new the dude.....joke)
Kant characterized the
' Categorical Imperative',
as an objective, rationally necessary and unconditional principle that
we must always follow despite any natural desires or inclinations we
may have to the contrary. All specific moral requirements, according
to Kant, are justified by this principle, which means that all immoral
actions are irrational because they violate the CI.
Furthermore, he describes two subsidary principles...
The Universal Principle of Right, which governs issues about justice,
rights and external acts that can be coercively enforced, holds that
“Any action is right if it can coexist with
everyone’s freedom in accordance with a universal law, or if on
its maxim the freedom of choice of each can coexist with
everyone’s freedom in accordance with a universal law”
The Supreme Principle of the Doctrine of Virtue, which governs
questions about moral ends, attitudes, and virtue, requires us to
“act in accordance with a maxim of ends that it can be
a universal law for everyone to have”
If we put obvious written prejudices about Germans a side, do you talk about 'American system' as something that exists in praxis? Unfortunately, it seems that many Americans would object the way the systems is treating them and beter not to start what woud people from many different parts of the world would have to say about that 'system' as well. Not only in present time....
I am comfortable with the fact that my sense of what is ethical and just is shaped mostly by my religion; a religion in which logic cannot be the end all and there has to be at least a degree of faith, a great symbol of our humanity, in the mix. Just as the religious (to some degree) individual cannot always embrace logic as the final arbiter of what is ethical, neither can our government function as it was designed by removing the concept of God and religion (faith) from its conceptual makeup. The movement to remove religion and spirituality is, as I see it, the very cause of so much that is unethical and unjust. In spite of our many disagreements in the realm of music and the offshoots of those disagreements, my feelings about all this align pretty well with Rok's.
*****
Unfortunately, it seems that many Americans would object the way the systems is treating them and beter not to start what woud people from many different parts of the world would have to say about that 'system' as well. Not only in present time....*****
I am sure many would 'object', but not to the point where they would exercise their right to leave. The entire world is trying to get to this 'imperfect' country. Mexico, a foreign country, even demands the 'right' for it's people to illegally enter and remain in this country. You gotta laugh.
Past injustices: Well, compared to most countries our 'injustices' pale in comparison. Also, under a system ruled by Kant(German), you would have to get rid of the injustices immediately, or, enshrine them into law. Under the American system we work on them, and kick the can down the road when we have to, until a solution is at hand. The constitutional convention and the issue of slavery is a prime example.
*****
If we put obvious written prejudices about Germans a side *****
Great point about religion, or more to the point, Christianity. We all know of examples of what happens when it was banned / absent. Red China, Communist Russia, Eastern European Bloc, North Korea, Nazi Germany and any number of countries in the middle-east.
Frogman, we obviously come from a very different background. It is interesting for me to read some of your thoughts, believe that they are said in good intention and spirit, but fortunately (if i may say that without any offense to you or to anyone else) the secularization (at least in Europe) has become constitutional standard. We may share some thoughts for pro and con, certainly I would be curious to hear more from you, as you seem to be educated person, so in a way it is surprise to me.
Rok, please do not feel that I try to patronise you in any way or form, but its kind of difficult to discuss ethical principles if you put down the conversation as a ’conflict’ between the ’Germans’ and ’Americans’.
I assure you, that fact has no influence on substance we are trying to talk about. Furthermore, my comments about certain ’injustices’ are pointed toward the system ( read money and power) that are creating them and I realy cant understand why any citizen ( you) has a need to identify himself with everything american when in fact he has nothing to do with it, except for the fact that you share same geographical origin.
Wrong doings are not ment to be compared or justified, no matter from where they come from. Just take a look on the list of all american foreign interventions in last hundred or more years, or at least try to imagine what could be done for your society if all that money was spend or invested otherwise
I'm gonna tell Frogman on Yall! This is definitely an "off topic" conversation. Is that you over there Frogman, I know you're not joining in this off topic conversation?
And to think, I just heard there was a herd of aficionados coming this way; no, they don't come in herds, but there was a bunch of em. Now I got it, there is a posse of aficionados riding on a herd of horses coming this way. Should I head them off at the pass, before they see you right in the middle of that "off topic" rig a maro?
*****
Furthermore, my comments about certain ’injustices’ are pointed toward the system ( read money and power) that are creating them and I realy cant understand why any citizen ( you) has a need to identify himself with everything american when in fact he has nothing to do with it, except for the fact that you share same geographical origin.*****
I identify with everything American because I am American. And how do you know I don't have power and money. I could. This ain't Europe. As the John Birch Society was so fond of saying, "Equal Men Aren't Free, and Free Men Aren't Equal".
Alex, as you know by now, I also consider you to be a thoughtful and intelligent person. Obviously, these are very complicated and personal topics and I would welcome an opportunity to have a few drinks with you and exchange thoughts about this with perhaps some Chet Baker in the background. Not enough time now to expound too much on what has been previously expressed; but, I would like to point to something that "jumped out" at me in the comments already made. I mention this because I believe it is important (to me) in its relevance to this issue and because in some ways it says more to me than the remainder of your comments. I also mention this with the full understanding that it is difficult to accurately express our and understand others’ thoughts on a forum like this and I don’t mean to disrespect nor to provoke gratuitously.
This is not the first time that you have responded to me this way when discussing/debating a non-music topic. I refer to a comment from you that suggests that because you consider me to be intelligent you are then surprised that I would hold the views that I do. In the current example it is around the issue of secularism vs. (as in my example) the idea that there are benefits with the presence of religion or spirituality in government (and particularly in education) and the ensuing problems when it is removed. The implication seems to be that it is unlikely that a person who holds these views can be intelligent; along with the assumed superiority of secularism and "logic". In my experience many of the most thoughtful and intelligent individuals that I have met are also religious, sometimes deeply so, and share these views. From my vantage point this is a perfect example of what I referred to earlier: the importance of being able to recognize our own biases. Obviously, there is much more that is tied to this and would very interesting to discuss. I prefer single-malt Scotch myself. Regards.
Frogman, hopefully you know by know that I have no intention to offend you, or anyone else by that matter. But, it seems to me that nobody has read that quote from Kant.Please, if you dont mind me saying that again, read that post above carefully.
To cut long story short, I have no objections toward any of your statements, or personal beliefs, but we should agree that they are 'personal'.
In that regard, looking at diversity of people (in some state) and diversity of their values and beliefs, we must agree that we can use only one universal rule as principle. That rule (untill we come up with something better) is law. It has to be univerasal and to provide equal and just treatment to all its citizens. To acomplish that, we must put a side any particularity that might give 'better treatment' to some group over another, meaning, there are no 'priviliges' over race,religion, sex or political orientation. Even more those 'particularitys' cant be presented as 'higher ground' in goverment. Period.
You can be deeply religious or you can prefer this over that, but those views can not be implemented toward everyone as law or rule, because we are all different. It is very simple notion.
Of course, you might see my views as biased. I would call them ethical. In any case I am ready to disscus it
Single malt is an excellent choice. I prefer at least three brands, Lagavulin, Laphroag and Ardbeg.
Alex, thank you for your response. As I said, it is unlikely that we can do this topic justice here; especially right now since, as before, I have very little time. Of course I know that your intention is not to offend and to say so seems redundant at this point. I don't disagree with what you wrote about the principles involved. The problem is that these principles (diversity, fairness, political orientation, etc.) are not always easily defined as they relate to every day life. I don't consider your commitment to these ideals as a bias at all and that was not the bias that I referred to and that you did not address: the idea that someone who believes in the importance of spirituality and religion in these matters cannot also be highly intelligent. THAT is the bias. I don't adhere to that kind of absolutism about these matters and would never present my views and end the expression of those with "Period". Truth, in my opinion, is often more fluid than that and to have some fluidity in one's views is a better path to a viable "truth". Btw I prefer the Highland malts and some of the Speysides. Regards.
I ask you in all honesty aficionados, was the Frogman's last post on, or off track? Was it "Kosure" according to his latest, for lack of a better word, "rantings"? Before I go into a long diatribe, I will wait for your response.
Frogman, I feel obliged to furher explain my stand, so when ever you feel that you are in mood, or when your schedule allows you, would like to ’clear’ any potential missunderstandings.
Orpheus, since his (Frogman) last post is addressed to me, I guess I would be first to to react if I felt that he was ’off track’. But, I have to admit, that even when I desagree with his views, I have nothing to object about the way Frogman express them. So, if your intention is not only pure provocation, I would say that there is nothing to be said about it. With all honesty, if I did not know better, I could easily ’catch’ myself trying to answer to some of Rok’s posts, but in all this time I have learn better not do so, because I am not really sure is he joking or not. So, no matter how ’close minded’ some of his(Rok’s)posts might look to be, I must admit that sometimes he displays great sense of humor, which is always sign of intelligence and I have choosen to believe that he is always joking.... So,instead of picking on Frogman, I would appreciate your opinion on the subject, if you have something to add, or we should just continue with our usual affairs, as I am sure that this subject will arise before than later...
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