Is using streaming services worthy of an audiophile?
I read that a lot of people on this forum use Tidal etc. Is this ok from audiophile perspective? I mean, do people who use such services actually know what quality is streamed? Don’t you lose all control over your music when you surrender to streaming services?
I was turned on to Tidal about a month ago and I love it. There is so much music to choose from. Is it for audiophiles...I definitely think so.
First, I was previosuly using Sirius/XM in my car all the time. Now with streaming (or locally saved music on my iphone) from Tidal, the quality is so much better! That was an immediate upgrade to my daily commute. Sure it’s not my home rig, but better sounding music is still better and all audiophiles can apppreciste that.
I’ve been streaming Tidal through Roon into my home audio system, using appleTV -> Belcanto DAC and its not as good as my MCormmack UDP-1 CD player after A/B testing the same song tracks equalized for volume.
I’m expecting all that to change when I have my new streaming digital solution in place tomorrow. Roon/Tidal -> ultraRendu (powered by UpTone LPS10) -> Schiit Yggy
The rest of the System is Marantz (pre), VTL s-400 (amp) and Wilson Maxx II.
Then in I will really be able to see if this is true audiophile quality.
Nonetheless, having all this music at my fingertips is amazing!
"Audiophiles and music lovers have almost nothing in common. Ordinary
music lovers usually find despicable Apple earbuds perfectly acceptable,
for example. I am 100% certain that audiogon members enjoy music on a
much deeper level than music lovers."
I would say that you're in the right forest, but barking up the wrong tree. I believe that Audiogon members enjoy EQUIPMENT on a much deeper level.
Or from a different angle, I could make the case that someone listening to music through $10 ear buds might absolutely be enjoying the music on a deeper emotional level while someone trying to analyze whether their new amp lets them hear more air around the instruments is enjoying the music on a deeper technical level.
As for the original question, I listen to Spotify daily. I have a great time just enjoying the music. I often play air drums. Sometimes air guitar. Maybe a little air bass, but only infrequently. If this means I need to remove the "I'm an audiophile!" patch from my Member's Only jacket, no problem, just let me know where to send it and I'll drop it in the mail today.
Yes, streaming is legit, and no, it doesn't disqualify you from being an audiophile or a music lover; I do like the distinction, however, in an amusing way.
We do 90% of our listening to Deezer HiFi/ Elite; Flac and it sounds good. Occasionally we do vinyl and sometimes streaming from a ripped CD or a Hi Res file. It all sounds as good or bad as the recording, mixing and mastering. I am totally convinced that the recording quality is far more important that the file type, though, MP3's are hard to make good on a revealing system.
But most importantly is access to music. Streaming and digital souces give me access to music that I would not otherwise be able to get, especially as I like a lot of music that is not available in any other form or from any other source. So, go to it. Try Deezer's high quality service (better music selection than Tidal for me and equal SQ) or Tidal or Qubuz if in Europe/ UK. It is a worthty addition to your stable of music sources.
I tried Tidal. It sounds like a 30 year old Denon CD player. I enjoyed that CD player. It was my first, but it is not good enough for my system or ears.
The signal is bitperfect 16/44 and stays that way if your computer or streamer is set up correctly. As you can see here even a modest Chromecast Audio can achieve that: http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2016/02/measurements-google-chromecast-audio_27.html So with the same DAC it should be sonically identical to CD. There is no magic in science.
@danvignau Not sure just how you are transmitting your tidal signal to your system but I am getting 96 and 192 from their masters via dig coax to my Blusound vault 2 then output by single ended analog out to my McIntosh pre and it is noticeably better than Redbook CD playback. Maybe if you were using say a smart tv to receive and using the tv analog outs to your system I could see how the sq might be poor. I know this as it was how I first used to listen to Pandora...ok but not hifi for sure.
I still don't understand questions like 'is streaming services (namely Tidal) worthy for audiophiles'. Here's what I don't get. Streaming services like Tidal HiFi offer the same Redbook CD sample rate (44.1kHz, 16-bit) as the CDs you spin. If you believe your CD player sounds better or worse than Tidal HiFi, it's not because of the source of music. It's usually due to the quality of your internal or external DAC chip set implementation and quality of the clock (oscillator) used to reduce jitter,
Tidal Redbook tracks and CD tracks sound the same to me when I compare using my Ayre CD player to Tidal Redbook tracks played via a Lumin S1. The SQ difference tips in the direction of Tidal when playing MQA tracks. I already know the MQA haters will respond to this, but please only respond if you've ever listened to MQA tracks on Tidal via a decent Streamer/DAC and not a Bluesound Node 2 DAC.
If your definition of audiophile is vinyl, then I will concede that digital hasn't closed this gap, but the gap is narrowing and the convenience of digital must be considered. Pretty hard to listen to vinyl when you're driving or not in front of your 2-channel rig.
I continue to be surprsed if people say that a particular digital system is almost as good as vinyl. Of course they continue to sound different, but only because vinyl is inferior. Apart from the ticks and the plops, vinyl suffers higher distortion, a non-flat frequency response, lower dynamic range, and lower channel separation.
@willemj, I mainly listen to digital, but I must admit there's something pretty special about listening to a clean well recorded vinyl album. I have yet to find any digital versions of Genesis' Lamb Lies Down on Broadway or The Who's Quadrophenia albums that sound as good as the vinyl versions. And that includes a hi-rez (96kHz, 24-bit) version of Quadrophenia.
@cycles2 I listen to mqa tracks through my vault2 and I am definitely a believer. Non mqa tracks of tidal sound better using the vaults digital out and let the McIntosh handle it BUT mqa through tidal sounds better letting the vault handle it and sending via its analog outs to the McIntosh. Of course "better" is wholly subjective and is just my results in my system with my ears. Naysayers will ALWAYS be naysayers and the earth will remain flat......
Here is my take: If you like more modern music selections, Tidal will be great and there is no reason to prevent you from having a audiophile quality experience, assuming your system is up to snuff. Most modern recordings in PCM use the full dynamic range of the CD format and have great frequency extension.
On the other hand, if you grew up in the 70's, most of the music you love may be from that era. I did. In this case, I have found that hi-res versions of these tracks that are remastered make all the difference. I usually download them from HDTracks. Joni Mitchell is a prime example of music that deserves to be hi-res. Most of it is available 24/192.
I use my network DAC, the Overdrive SX, with Jriver to play all resolutions of PCM files over the network. I can use any computer with Jriver on it, Mac or PC. I can do this using wired Ethernet or WIFI with identical quality. I have made comparisons to my best XMOS USB interface and the network interface yields much better SQ, even though they both use identical circuitry for clocking.
I have made comparisons to DSD and find that my PCM files are just as good, and with classical music, usually better. There are not enough tracks I like available in DSD anyway. I also leave everything in .wav format because I have found that AIFF, ALAC, FLAC and other formats compromise the SQ.
If anyone has really good, neutral sounding components and likes Tidal, etc. please tell me what you use to receice their signal. I find it to be worse than a bent and worn Shure M91ED cartridge. Seriously, I dug an old one up (to play with my unipivot arm by biasing it crookedly counter to the bend, before trying this with my bent Supex Mark IV) and compared them.
danvignau - Tidal is essentially CD quality, so it has the typical digital challenges to beating vinyl. Even redbook can beat vinyl, but it requires the right low-jitter interface and a really good DAC. A CD transport will usually not cut-it, unless its uber-expensive.
The best digital IME now is over Ethernet/WIFI and coming from a Roon interface or DLNA interface and driven by a computer. This will deliver the lowest jitter and have the least effects from the playback software and computer used.
The thing to understand about all digital playback is that Jitter is the #1 obstacle, followed by the digital filter in the DAC, and then the analog stages, I/V conversion and power delivery system in the DAC. And this is assuming that you use .wav files, not compressed.
Unfortunately, Tidal uses FLAC and ALAC rather then uncompressed .wav files. I predict that for most DAC's, the playback sound quality will be slightly lower than for a .wav file played directly from a computer. They are close however, and in most systems you will not hear the difference.
So question: my Oppo 105 comes with Tidal streaming capabilities through its app on my iPhone. Would you recommend I try that or get a really good USB and use Spotify from my MacBook Pro into my Hegel 160 integrated?
I use Tidal on my oppo and it sounds very good. I was surprised, I was not expecting the sound quality I got.. definitely better than Spotify. Willem is spot on there.
@willemj and @toddverrone: that's my next musical adventure. I love after long while being in a position where I can listen to the music rather than to my system.
I second that! And then, after a few months I read something on here that gets me curious and around we go again.. it's like a gentle upwards spiral of audio awesomeness
As and old music lover/audiophile ( is there such a thing? ) I will relay my steps towards streaming. I purchased a really nice dac you may be able to use your CD player. At first I started burning my CDs onto my laptop using JRiver software. For me I really didn't like looking at my computer while listening and trying to enjoy music. I purchased a Melco N1 at 2k. Then a comparable Buffalo burner. Now I burn my CDs to the Melco at the same time I use it to play music. So the Melco is a library and player with 2 terabytes plus unlimited external storage. I loaded up a " remote " app on my IPad and use that to control the Melco, which has its own software. Now I have almost all my CDs recored and playable. I like the sound quality better then any player I have owned, and I have easier access. Haven't gotten into streaming yet, a friend of mine had stored a huge collection of CDs, put them on a hard drive which I downloaded to the Melco, now I have so much music don't know how long it will take to listen to all of it. When I get board I may go to streaming.
I would say that you're in the right forest, but barking up the wrong tree. I believe that Audiogon members enjoy EQUIPMENT on a much deeper level.
It's true that there are a lot of equipment junkies on all the forums. I like to get people off that train and into the psychological benefits of music. Once you achieve sound quality that exceeds vinyl, you forget about the equipment. It is possible. I've had several customers sell their vinyl systems, not because they were inconvenient, but because their digital sounded better.
Defiant - If you are after the highest sound quality, the format of your rips should be .wav. Even uncompressed FLAC has SQ issues. Tags are an issue, but I put up with that for the better SQ.
The important thing to remember with all digital is that jitter is the #1 thing that will reduce the SQ. The interface between the computer and the D/A is the critical part, whether its USB, Ethernet or S/PDIF, as well as the master clock in that interface.
It depends. For me Tidal is about convenience when I don't have time, or don't want to play an album or dig out a CD. I also use Audrivana for my DSD's, but I love the selection of Tidal, and I'll tell you sounds pretty good coming out of my Legacy Classic HD's. Sure, there is a bit of SQ drop off as compared to my other media but it's about finding new music and ease. I also run Tidal on my built in speakers around the house when entertaining as I've built some great playlists.
I may get roasted for this, but you don't have to be an "audiophile" 100% of the time. Sometimes more than not it's about the music you enjoy listening too, versus listening to the perfect recordings to get the most out of your system.
“you don’t have to be an "audiophile" 100% of the time“
@dhpeck,
I get what you saying, more than often I enjoy listening to Tidal through my SONOS speakers placed throughout the house instead of heading to my dedicated audio room.
Sounds like I am not the only one who has added a Tidal feed to other parts of the house bar the "audio room".
However my findings are that Tidal streamed through my Bluesound Vault 2 and fed via digital coax to my exogal comet plus out to BAT power amp and into Wilson witt speakers sounds noticeably better than CD Redbook playback or even ripped wav files. That is to my ears in my system. Especially the Tidal masters at 96 and up depending on the release.
I agree that CD's sound better after they are ripped. All they are is "data" and once in that format they are easier to render into music. Putting your CDs in a library will make them sound better as well as make them more accessible and in my opinion more fun to use.
The question posed by the OP doesn't sit well with me. I understand having a discussion about Tidal and the quality of the service vs. other sources but it's that "worthy of an audiophile" part that gets me. Are there standards one must meet to qualify as an "audiophile"? What if a component that I use does not qualify as being "worthy of an audiophile", does that exclude me from the club? What are the standards? Who establishes them? If you have more money does that make it easier to qualify as an audiophile because you can afford the "proper" products? The point I am making is that I don't like labels. To me if we must use the term "audiophile" it is simply someone who cares about music and strives to get the best sound out of whatever system they have regardless of price. Just my two cents.
Tidal hifi/master sounds better than anything I've tried. I have both a Tidal and a Spoitfy account. I've A/B'd recordings I'm very familiar with and those I'm not - Tidal wins every time.
I love Tidal. I stream their jazz collection through my Oppo BDP 103 into my DAC and it is wonderful. So many good albums and so fun to search for the really good sounding ones. Multibit dac.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
