Good point Al, I think you must be correct (I was imagining a variable output digital signal might overload the inputs on an external DAC).
I use the digital pass-through from my HDP-5 to HDP-3 & of course it does control volume although all corrections & processing for the -3 in this case require a separate USB connection & a different .mzd file. Only one processor connected to the computer at a time of course!
From page 20 of the manual, referring to the single digital output of the PreMate and PreMate+:
This is the same signal as provided on the Main Speakers analog output. It carries the corrected audio signal for the speakers, optionally with limit filters for subwoofer integration. It can be used to connect an external DAC instead of using the internal DAC of the DEQX.
I would infer from this statement that the digital output is volume controlled, as well as being subjected to all of the corrections and other signal processing that are applied to the main analog outputs, other than D/A conversion.
I’ve never used the digital outputs of my HDP-5. But what I’m wondering is **if** the PreMate was purchased used, and **if** the previous owner was just using it for subwoofer duties, he may have disabled the main analog outputs in the configuration he set up. Which presumably would have also disabled the digital output, given the paragraph I quoted from the manual.
In that case a computer would have to be connected to the DEQX and the calibration software would have to be used to revise the configuration.
I have emailed Alan Langford & Kim Ryrie at DEQX that the image on p24 is misleading & it would be better to say ’Integrated amplifiers’.
The illustration suggests a DAC that will have a variable volume output (?) to a power amp maybe taking a direct digital feed. As the DAC digital output is presumably a fixed volume then this arrangement wouldn’t work. If the connection between DAC & power amps is analogue then I don’t see the DEQX volume control/remote having any effect either.
thks- It seemed odd to me to run from output of dac to amps but here it is from page 24 of manual unless I am reading it wrong- "The diagram above illustrates the use of the digital output of the PreMATE or PreMATE+. Connect the digital output, labeled Full L2/R2, to an external DAC via a BNC cable (or an RCA cable with a BNC-RCA adapter). The outputs of the DAC are connected to the power amplifier, which in turn drives the left and right speakers. Note that the external DAC must be capable of decoding a 24-bit 96 kHz signal "
fluffers - Your post suggests that your DAC had been able to feed your amplifiers directly prior to adding the PreMate. Is that so?
The PreMate is normally sequenced as a preamp in the chain immediately prior to power amps - or by ’amps’ do you mean integrated amps? & does your external DAC have the facility to feed power amps directly?
I’m guessing by ’according to the DEQX manual’ you refer to the Full digital output as on p20. If not, then refer to the image on p12 of the manual & either arrangement below will work :
- Server digital output->external DAC-> PreMate via analogue RCA inputs or balanced XLR if available->power amps (I use a similar setup but with two DEQX units master-slave). The DEQX unit will still digitally process speaker correction, sub integration etc.
- Server digital output->PreMate digital input (using inbuilt DEQX DAC but your external DAC is unnecessary)-> power amps.
The way you describe things I would have expected a further preamp or integrated amps after the DAC, using an analogue output from the DAC - this arrangement will of course work but I would personally minimise extra equipment in the chain.
Hi- Just got the premate and want to run my external dac- I hooked up my server to the premate dig.in and then out from the premate to dig. in on my dac- according to the DEQX manual -I ran out from the dac to the amps- No sound- what am i doing wrong- thks for the help
As usual Andrew (Drewan77) provides great answers, with which I agree completely.
I too purchased the M23 as part of the $745 DEQX "Reference Calibration Kit." Mainly out of curiosity I subsequently requested a calibration file corresponding to the serial number of the particular mic from Earthworks, via their website, and it was in a plain text format rather than the proprietary DEQX format supplied with the kit that is necessary for importation into the DEQX cal software.
Regarding your questions about how to best configure the system, I would just add to Andrew’s comments that using a particularly long digital cable could conceivably increase susceptibility to ground loop issues between the CDP and the DEQX, which in turn might adversely affect timing jitter at the circuit point within the DEQX where D/A conversion is performed. So when the time comes it may be worthwhile to compare sonics with and without a cheater plug temporarily applied to the CDP’s power plug, to defeat its safety ground connection. That would break any ground loop that may exist between the CDP and the DEQX, and allow you to determine if this possibility is an issue.
BTW, for the benefit of others who may read your post and may wonder, I’ll mention that I assume the word "apron" was intended to be "approx."
1. Connect directly to the PreMATE DAC as these are high quality & transparent. 2. If you get an M23 from another source, you will need to have the files converted - probably by Alan Langford at DEQX & my experience is that he may take quite a while to do this & there may be a cost. I would personally not recommend it. I asked the question before getting my own M23 but in the end bought it via the DEQX dealer with the correct DEQX file. 3. I always connect directly to a DEQX processor when using subs to achieve the most accurate time alignment. This feature is excellent, minimises other equipment in the chain & volume is locked in with the main speakers. The DEQX software allows you to adjust time delay (main speakers to subs), phase, relative volumes & equalisation anyway. If you want to offset any lacking bass from the source, you can set the four remote control presets to progressively higher levels of sub volume. This works really well & is what I do.
@almarg : Hi Al. I,m taking steps to acquire a PreMATE Plus at the first of the year and am selling some seldom used gear, to help offset the cost. I have a subjective question, concerning the connection of my Theta Miles CD player. I am currently using the Theta through its analog balanced outs, going into my Aesthetix Signature linestage. I decided to run the Theta through my Casablanca 3 and must admit, it sounded a little clearer, than the Aesthetix. I have a Kora Hermès II, also presently not in the chain, that I thought I may use in front of the Deqx unit. Do you have an opinion on which would give me the better sound? Theta straight to the Deqx, or Theta + Kora+ Deqx? Without the Miles own dac, I would be using a digital cable apron 20’ long, as I’m already using a better quality set of XLR’s to my linestage. Also,I have the Casablanca up for sale and couldn’t find a fair true price, to ask for the unit. I simply checked the blue book and compared it to other CB3’s on the market. I’m not trying to gouge anyone-just not sure about the asking price. One more question-I’m planning on getting the M23 mic, but can get it for about half the cost Larry is asking. Do you know of anyone who has done this, then purchased the mic files? One last comment. For my two JL F113’s, I’m using a separate preamp coming out of the linestage tape out. This gives me total separate volume control, over my subs. My Wilson’s have very deep bass and I use the separate sub volume control, to offset any lacking in bass, depending on the source’s bass output. It’s a setup that has worked very well, in tailoring the bass to fit the source. Thanks in advance, Steve
I bought my DEQX PreMate+ back in December 2017,
and finally got it calibrated on Thursday so I’m now utilizing its digital
crossover and room correction functions. Here is a rundown of the setup process, and my impressions. After living with the DEQX as just a
DAC-pre for over four months, I can say I’m quite pleased with how the DSP
has improved the sound (more on that later).
I was too intimidated by the calibration software to attempt it myself so I
booked a session with a reputable “DEQXpert” aka dealer, named Larry Owens,
based in Colorado. It took about 3.5 hours from start to finish. While it took
longer than the 2-3 hours he estimated, I was quite impressed with Larry’s
knowledge and adeptness with the software.
I expected that we’d start by taking near field anechoic measurements of the
speakers, but my DEQXpert, Larry Owens felt that might not be necessary. We
started by placing the mic at the listening position and based on the
measurements, he felt that would be sufficient for us to implement a crossover
for the sub/mains and correct the in-room response. I’m not sure exactly why we
skipped the near field measurements because much has been made about that
element to distinguish DEQX from other room correction products that don’t do
speaker correction. I can say that if we’d done those measurements, it probably
would have taken twice as long.
Before ever seeing any measurements, I expected a few things: (1) that my
subwoofer was set a bit louder than the speakers, (2) that I had some
nonlinearities in the bass, particularly due to some dips below 80 hertz, (3)
that my left channel near the wall was less accurate due to boundary effect,
and (4) that the high frequencies were slightly emphasized in-room. Turns out
all of that was true except for the fourth point. The highs were fairly well
behaved already.
The speakers (mostly left channel) had a dip around 60-70hz and the sub had a
dip around 80-90 hz so by setting a digital crossover at 78hz, voila, both dips
were avoided! From there, Larry made a bunch of very precise corrections in
both the timing and frequency domain that made things look progressively more
beautiful as he went along.
With just a couple hours of listening under my belt, I can say the system's
frequency response is noticeably flatter. The sound is more precise; less
vague. The bass is less room shaking than before simply because it was set too
high, but now it’s definitely tighter and more articulate. It makes it easier
to follow a bass guitar line and distinguish pitch (less monotone bass). I also
feel like the bass in more consistent throughout my room, which I didn’t expect
and can’t quite explain.
My stereo presentation is also noticeably
improved after Larry corrected each speaker to more closely match each other.
Before the calibration, I perceived my Revel F208 tweeters as a bit too bright
so I used the switch on the speakers to turn them down .5-1dB. Larry pointed to
a slight peak at a narrow but critical region in the upper mid treble that he
suspected might be the culprit. He used parametric eq to flatten that out and I
think that solved it. Much better to address that one narrow problem than turn
down everything above 3k with that tweeter knob on the speakers. The highs
sound more accurate now. Not too prominent nor too recessed.
I will live with this for a while and report back to Larry if any additional
tweaking is needed. He’s been a joy to work with.
Yes, the software, user manual etc are available to download from the DEQX site (you will need to ask by email: alangford@deqx.com for the latest login & password to do so).
I believe the DEQX comes with operating software on a CD. Neither of my laptops have a disc drive so I might need to buy one. Does anyone know if that software can be accessed as a download and not read from a physical disc?
Ok, I won’t throw a “solved” in there, but generally the simplest answer is correct. I wasn’t plugging both XLR’s from the preamp into the DEQX, just one side; which there was just white noise coming out. Plugging both in makes it work, along with the sub.
Hi Al and thanks for the quick reply. Your interpretation is correct. It does sound quite good without my preamp, but I really like the tubes I have in it, adds a little “warmth” to the overall presentation, so I’m not ready to discard it. The preamp isn’t super finicky, but confirming that the analog out into the preamp should suffice, has me stumped.
Todd, if I understand correctly you are supplying the Premate with a digital input, and when you connect the analog "main speaker" outputs of the Premate to your (monoblock?) amplifiers everything works fine. But when you connect the analog "main speaker" outputs of the Premate to analog inputs of your preamp, and connect the preamp’s analog outputs to your amplifiers, you get nothing.
If that is a correct interpretation, the only possibilities I can think of (assuming you are using similar settings of the Premate in the two cases) are that the preamp’s input select switch is not set to the right input, or there is a connection problem, or the preamp has a problem.
In any event, as you alluded to I suspect the cause of this problem will turn out to be something simple.
Wondering if any could share their connection setup.
Wondering if any could share their connection setup. I’ve been attempting to integrate my preamp into the chain, with 0 luck. I pulled my DAC and inserted the Premate and am not able to get a signal to pass through my preamp. Sounds/works great without my preamp, connecting my amps directly to the DEQX, but getting the processed signal to pass thru my premamp, no bueno. It may be something as simple as selecting the correct input, via the DEQX, though I’ve selected “auto” and every input, via the remote. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Wanted to thank everyone for their commentary and posts on this piece. I have one coming, should be here next week. Looking forward to getting it integrated.
Thanks, Al. A well-reasoned response. I’ve been thinking the same thing. It pencils out alright, but it’s not ideal. I’ll have to keep a watchful eye on the heat during listening sessions and place it somewhere else if it gets to be too much.
Both the HDP5 I own and the Premate+ are described as using low noise switching power supplies, and I suspect that the same supply is used in both. The power supply in the HDP5 is a commercially available sealed unit capable of supplying a maximum output of 30 watts. Since it is a switching supply and since the power drawn from it is undoubtedly somewhat less than 30 watts I would expect that the unit's AC consumption is not a great deal more than that amount. Which means that it won't run particularly hot, and will just get a bit warm as I have found with my HDP5.
That said, 0.35 inches of clearance by the vents does sound a little uncomfortable to me. My guess is you'll be ok over the long term, but I'm unsure.
I have no specific knowledge regarding your second question.
I've been following this thread for a long time and even weighed in last year with a bunch of questions. After moving from the west coast to the east coast and briefly owning a PS Audio DirectStream Junior DAC, I've now made arrangements to buy a used DEQX PreMate Plus. The DSJ has been phenomenal, but I feel the DEQX can help me overcome issues with my room and subwoofer integration. In my new room, I want to reduce some of the hotness in the treble, and uneven bass. I can keep the group updated as i go through the process of setting it up but for reasons I won't get into, it won't get here until early December.
Does the DEQX get very warm to the touch when left on continuously? I’ll be placing it in a 4-sided shelf that’s open to the front and back. There is plenty of clearance above the unit (6-7”), but only a measly 0.35" of clearance on either side (the vents are located on the sides of the PreMate Plus). The user manual calls for at least 2” of clearance on either side. Should I be worried. My current DirectStream Junior has no vents and gets along just fine in this shelf.
I heard from another DEQX owner that the company does have speaker correction filters already completed for some speakers, like the KEF LS50. Lucky owners of those models can download the correction filters from DEQX instead of having to them at home. I've reached out to the company to ask if they have a speakers (Revel F208), but haven't heard back yet. Does anyone know what speakers they've tested?
I have recently completed new Open Baffle speakers utilising both DEQX processors as mentioned in previous threads. Linking master-slave by RS232 + digital cabling was straight forward. The HDP-5 controls the main speakers, the HDP-3 two subs at <50hz.
Currently I have only measured outdoors at a relatively low height because of the weight of these speakers. At a later date I will re-do this at 1m height. Rather than move the entire system outdoors I used 15m speaker cables and two interconnected 7m microphone cables (to Earthworks M23) from the music room.
I am a newly minted PreMate owner examining the possibilities. A couple of thoughts: 1) I know I will want Roon capability so is it possible to upgrade to the 4th gen processor?
2) Earthworks m23's are widely available at sub $500. I would be interested in a group buy to drive that price lower if others care to participate?
3) Has anyone attempted to use a USB converter from the 232-ComPort w Flirc to have wireless display & control??
Great thread & I appreciate the education. I am way behind the curve but will be contacting Larry Owens soon.
well i've been looking at accourate. seems like it can do everything deqx does. One question that bothers me about deqx tho- people say it is 'transparent'. but is it really? With so many golden ears around here who can tell the difference between a schiit gungnir and yggdrasil, you'd think having a round trip A:D, DSP,and then D:A would really make some irritating noise?
Sorry I didn't respond earlier. Linear bass is clean bass. Its bass that doesn't smudge the sounds next to them. A 24 hz signal played loud can't have any effect on the rest of the music, and it usually does. You need to eliminate that.
Thanks, I got it and I can now toggle between Bypass 0 and my calibrated profile 1. This is important to me because I wanted to try additional profile settings but I was afraid I would lose my 3 hour+ calibration.
No, but when you create a profile and do a "file/save" (which updates the .mzd file that is currently open on your computer) or a "file/save as" (which creates a new .mzd file on your computer), and then at a later time you create an additional profile and do a "file/save" or "file/save as," when you "save all to DEQX" what will be uploaded to the DEQX are the four profiles that exist (or don’t exist) in the .mzd file that is currently open.
So you can create a profile, store it in a .mzd file via a "file/save" or a "file/save as," and at a later time create an additional profile in that same file, and then a "save all to DEQX" will upload both profiles to the DEQX.
I believe these paragraphs from version 2.98 of the manual may explain the issue you referred to just above. (I assume version 3.02 of the manual provides similar information, but I haven't looked for it there):
Note - when the Save All to DEQX button is clicked, all four profiles from the open configuration are saved to the DEQX. Since all profiles of a new configuration are disabled until you change them, if you install a correction filter in just one profile of a new configuration, then save it to the DEQX, the other profiles of the DEQX will be disabled, irrespective of what those profiles may have been before.
Note that the DEQX Configurations saved to the DEQX unit have been generated in 'non-real time' i.e. they only affect the processing by the DEQX unit once the Save All to DEQX button is clicked. This contrasts to changes made in the DEQX Control Panel, which affect the processing on the DEQX in ‘real time’ i.e. any change made in the DEQX Control Panel instantaneously affects the DEQX. For more on this subject see IO Manager in the Reference section.
To save a DEQX Configuration on your PC (not on the DEQX), click on the Save button once you have set up the DEQX Configuration. This also saves the measurement(s) and correction(s) you have created.
This could progress into quite a lengthy exchange & may take a while, depending on our relative time zones. What I've normally done in situations like this is have the user send me their .mzd file which I can interpret properly, make initial time alignments etc & send it back with four different profiles set - If you want to do that, use the address below
andrewd@stockton92.freeserve.co.uk
I'm happy to help as I well remember the frustration that can come during the initial learning process - there are a lot of parameters that interact with each other. The software also has a lot of details that aren't totally documented.
I am stuck trying to complete the Bypass profile 0. It seems basic to set up different profiles and be able to select them from the remote, but I can’t seem to get it.
It seems that I can only select one profile from the remote that will play. That is, if I finished the bypass installation on profile 0 it will play on profile 0 but then my corrected profile that I have on profile 1 does not.
When I go back and again set up the profile 1, from the remote I can select the corrected profile 1 but when I push profile 0 (bypass) there is no sound.
I’m missing something, can you understand and help?
Thank you for the info I try them tomorrow. I need more practice. I would like to set up the Bypass 0 profile. Do I need to do another complete measurement or can I copy the speaker measurements?
Yes those confidence levels should be fine. Only 3dB between L & R main speakers means your mic was fractionally off centre so look at the impulse response of both in one viewer window, zoom in and take the mid point timing as the reading. (It will probably be no more than 1 or 2 fractions of a ms difference between the two main peaks & only really visible at a high zoom level).
The best way to set mains to subs is first to align the faster sub (usually nearest to your listening/measuring position) to the slower sub, then align the pair of main speakers (average reading as above), also with the slowest sub.
Finally, take another measurement afterwards to verify & you should see both subs initial peak at the same point & the main speakers main peak now also at the same time alignment. I always find it best to open two viewer windows, one for the pair of mains, one for the pair of subs. If you try and see all 4 measurements in one viewer, the scale usually makes the sub measurements look almost flat and impossible to interpret accurately.
"Thanks, If the QOL is placed before the DEQX Premate would I need to run the measurements again?"
No, the DEQX processor measures the effect of the speakers/cabling/amps downstream & the QOL is going to address source material upstream. This has nothing to do with in-room measurements.
The PreMate microphone measurement is based on a rising frequency plot created by the processor & will have no correlation with anything beforehand in the rest of your system (which is the correct way to do this).
Then, during normal listening, it will be fed a ’corrected’ source signal & it will phase & time correct everything for the speakers & room afterwards based on the chosen calibration.
.....If you added it after the PreMate (especially if you then took a measurement), the two separate phase corrections may give strange results & it’s definitely not as DEQX intended.
The logic behind my response is that DEQX corrects the speakers (+ Amps) & room whereas the QOL appears to deal with phase anomalies on the source recording. Adding this component between the Premate & amps will upset the measured relationship so I would not do that.
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