Charles1dad -- ... I certainly get your point and I don't believe computers are bad or wrong. I just find in its current state of development they aren't worth the trouble or hassle for me. Grannyring's post above summarized it so well. We do agree, to each their own. "in its current state of development" - intesting, and quite contrary to my own experience. To my ears the "state of developement" in regards to PC-audio was mature many years ago in trumping the sound of CD players easily (more on that below). What kind of "trouble or hassle" are you referring to - technical issues? Some six years ago I borrowed a bunch of CD players in the $2-3k range for evaluation being that I was about to invest in a new digital front end. None of them really floated my boat, so to speak, so in my further search and more or less by accident I came across a dealer who was into selling studio-based equipment, and he recommended that I tried out harddrive-based playback. Just to get a bearing on the potential of PC-based playback he then sent me a ~$250 Carat D/A-converter, which I hooked up to my bare bones Acer laptop. Playing files from Windows Media Player (simply plug 'n play - no soft- or hardware optimization, whatsoever) what followed was hard to fathom; as witnessed by a couple of friends I invited over for the shoot-out - all of them very much into high quality audio playback - there was unequivocal consensus that the Carat/Acer combo sonically flew right right past all the CD players I had borrowed (C.E.C, Jungson, Rega among them) - and that, mind you, at under 1/10 of the cost compared to the most expensive of the polycarbonate disc spinners, and through the most basic of setups. Trying other DAC's via my then Acer laptop only cemented initial impressions. As an added bonus I felt (the outlook of) having the whole of my music library at my fingertips extremely freeing, indeed a relief, so this sealed the deal for me - as it has ever since. Any glitches that may be primarily software-related here can occur, albeit rarely, but it depends on the specific implementation. To me it's a non-issue. That is to say: I definately concur with poster Raymonda here as his impresssions and views reflect my own as well. But indeed, to each his own. |
Agear, waite a minute, I thought I was out of this sinceless thread!, please carry on, but without my mention please, I have said all that I can here, what more must I say?, I poped in to talk to charles about the Burr-Brown dac chips, LOL!, Not computer audio!, cheers. |
Raymonda,
If it's hassle free for you that's good.I seem to hear more experiences similar to Grannyring's. He put a lot of time and effort into his computer system. CD is about as simple as it gets in my view.
Regards,
Charles, |
Charles...my computer system is the least hassle playback medium I have. It is easier than cds and vinyl. The only thing easier is my tuner. |
Hello Raymonda,
I certainly get your point and I don't believe computers are bad or wrong. I just find in its current state of development they aren't worth the trouble or hassle for me. Grannyring's post above summarized it so well. We do agree, to each their own.
Charles, |
09-01-14: Raymonda
I'll say it again.....computer audio is how 99.9999 percent of all music is recorded.....mixed and mastered today. Playing back files on your computer has the potential to be as close to the final mix as possible.... Raymond, philistines like Charlesdad, Jesusa0, Granngyring, and Audiolabyrinth inspired me to start this thread.... |
Pkoegz
You´re right I have to clarify that point.
I used a TEAC UD-501 DAC which has USB connection. One day I decided to connect a V-Link USB to SPDIF converter to the TEAC and, to my ears, I found more openness. But the the real deal was the USB external power supply (a Chinese one that I don´t remember the brand), suddenly I got more illumination.
When I compared the Esoteric-Yamamoto combo over the MacBook Pro plus Teac UD-501 DAC (USB direct or not) the first combo gave me more resolution and body (besides, the Yamamoto bass reproduction bettered the Teac´s).
Again, a transport like the Esoteric beat a transport like a MacBook Pro plus the external parafernalia mentioned.
Hope this helps.
Daniel |
Charles....I find both done right to sound fantastic and I'm not trying to convince anyone one is better but rather that the premise that computer audio is bad....wrong or dead is way off base. Again..computer audio is the way most recording are created and sound fantastic.
Let me put it this way; a recent recording project did for a client, consisting of the group Spyro Gyra was a 26 track recording. If you were afforded the hardware....software....and tracks....would you like to have total control of your mix and afterwards would you burn it to a disc for playback in a cd player or would you save a 2 track file and use this as your playback reference? My guess is the later.....which is how most engineers keep and listen to their 2 track master mixes. Not that it doesn't get burned to a disc but that the file is saved, archived and referenced on a computer and a hard drive. A dedicated computer based system for sure but today, for most people, it is not hard to put together a dedicated computer based system.....and can cost a whole lot less than a sota cd player.
My point about Spyro Gyra was made because...In the not too distant future this might be possible.....at first I can see it starting with the ambient mix....then surround....then limited track mix....and then total mix. The variables that would need to be reconciled is distribution. ..royalies...and artist creative control. The latter is the biggest...but doable.
You might think that it could never happen but it could....copy protection of some sort could be applied...everything could be save in a cloud and payment could be fee for access. Your home hardware could be the restriction point for protection through software loaded on your computer.
Sound crazy...but so was the light
bulb....telephone....radio...and lp. All this can happen..and nd someday will. Sorry to take off an a tangent....but this is along way of saying computer audio ain't dead but rather just beginning. |
charles, the 1794 allows for direct coupling of the signal instead of out put capacitors,and there is more!, and as a seasoned audiophile that I know you are, this is best!, Incredible! |
Hello Keith,
I don't know the technical aspects of the TI 1794 chip. All I can attest to is that Shigeki Yamamoto found a way to get absolutely beautiful music out of it and for that I am very grateful for his talent and effort. I've added Duelund CAST capacitors (1pair) for output coupling and placed the DAC on a Star Sound Apprentice Stand. These two simple steps took it to an even higher level.
Charles, |
Raymonda,
In terms of sales volume you may be correct, I haven't done any research to verify or deny. For my purposes it doesn't matter as I'm concerned only with how the product sounds and reproduces music. That's all I care about.
If you find that in your experience computer systems sound better then case closed, you made the right decision. I can't tell you what to like, that's strictly your call. I've heard many computer based systems over the years, some were very good and others weren't. Judging solely on sound quality I wouldn't think of exchanging my current digital front end for any of computer alternatives. Again that's just me, you and I will respectfully differ on this point. A dedicated high quality music server/transport is a potentially different story and I could see that possibility. I'm not persuaded by the computer options at all.
Charles, |
Hi charles1dad, I have foremost been a Texas-instruments-Burr Brown Dac chip fan!, I owned many, the 1704 was good, The 1796 that I have now is the most liked for my system, the 1794 I did not know about, looks to be the next endeavor I get in a next player for sure, I find Burr brown chips to be less fatigueing, and all about musicality, I just researched this 1794 chip, I can see why the best names in digital are tring it out with there units, go ahead and read all about the 1794, what it does with the componet it's self, other than the useual tech info that all other dac chips are concerned with, is incredible! |
Cd players aren't big sellers these days. They are way down compared to its hey day. |
Jesusa0,
What USB dac did you use for your comparison? The only Yamamoto dac you list is a YDA 1. As far as I can tell this is not a USB dac. Also it is from 2008 or so. There is a new dac from Yamamoto, a YTA 2 dac. This is a USB dac. It is a brand new model according to their web site. You state and I quote, "2.- USB to SPDIF converter. To my ears better resolution than connecting USB straight to DAC". So I ask what USB dac have you used to determine this opinion? |
"disk drives have been pushed to the back of the bus"
That's news to me.
Charles, |
I'll say it again.....computer audio is how 99.9999 percent of all music is recorded.....mixed and mastered today. Playing back files on your computer has the potential to be as close to the final mix as possible....for the good or bad of it. People are so hung up on usb....well, today's usb sounds as good as last year's firewire thanks in part to asynchronous. So much so that I no longer use firewire to playback tracks for mixing. Anyway....If you don't like usb buy a mytek with a firewire port.
Again.....listening to a hard drive is how recording engineers mix. After sending out for cd pressing, the cd wi be compared to the two track file from a hard drive to ensure a proper pressing.
Also....I for one am glad that disc drives have been pushed to the back of the bus. Do you know how many laser problems occur with dvd drives. It is a crap shoot to even invest in a top player due to the short life laser problems. And....hard drives are so cheap that backing up your files in incredibly easy and fast. |
Tbg,
I understand. My belief is what ever it takes to sound good for "you". Its just become that simple for me.
Charles, |
Charles1dad, while I like avoiding Op amps and his other emphases, I need the Sabre chip for my music server and it double DSD.
Thanks for the information. |
Hi Tbg,
I believe it uses the TI(Burr Brown) 1794. The key to its sucess IMO is the ultra simple discrete analog circuit(Yamamoto avoids Op amp/NFB at all cost he says). Minimal use of filters and his emphasis on power supply and heavy duty transformer. He placed attention on implementing a very minimalist design which he feels yields a natural sound quality. It's exceptionally organic and lively.
Charles, |
Charles1dad, I just read the 6Moons review. Wow! I didn't have time to note what chip is in it, but I would love to hear it. |
Jesusa0,
A good friend has brought several well regarded players/DACs to my home and so far he always prefers the Yamamoto YDA in the end. It very much flies under the radar. |
Hello Agear,
As you quoted me from another thread, I think I have to be accurate.
My computer had some enhancements such as:
1.- External USB power supply (a noticeable sonic improvement);
2.- USB to SPDIF converter. To my ears better resolution than connecting USB straight to DAC.
3.- External hard drive;
4.- 24/88 files;
Even though those enhancements, I preferred the sound coming from the Esoteric UX-1 playing 16/44 redbook CDs (of course, the Yamamoto YDA-01 DAC is a must).
Regards,
Daniel |
08-31-14: Jesusa0
Matt,
I celebrate you´re going to try the DACs with a superior transport (Esoteric). My experience taught me that my Esoteric UX-1 plus the Yamamoto YDA-01 DAC beat, by a large margin, a MacBook Pro plus the same Yamamoto. Conclusion: I quit computer audio.
My SPDIF cable is an Antipodes Audio Kokiri.
Regards,
Daniel Yet again on another thread. So, is unmodded computer audio a bust? |
08-24-14: Charles1dad
Hi Agear,
Have the Aries and Lampizator level 7 met or exceeded your lofty expectations? A DHT(EML 45 tube) DAC is very interesting.Congratulations. above average....;) |
08-24-14: Tbg
....this thread is not different from any othersÂthere is never any consensus. and 08-24-14: Mitch4t
Finally, this thread is not different from any othersÂthere is never any consensus.
I think that is the beauty of this forum. Differing opinions are what drives everything here. I read them all, try a few, throw out most or them and form my own opinions. Audio is no different than automotive in that vein....there are fifty ways to get from 0-60 mph. We all choose our own route. Its just information Tbg that can be used or not used at Mitch stated. As I have said before, Audiophiles are fickle creatures like cats, and you cannot predict or explain their choices. That being said, we are all unique creations, and cannot or should not be ground into some homogenous, fascist consensus. |
Hi Agear,
Have the Aries and Lampizator level 7 met or exceeded your lofty expectations? A DHT(EML 45 tube) DAC is very interesting.Congratulations.
Charles, |
Agear, Congrats on the Aries!,Happy listening. |
Finally, this thread is not different from any othersÂthere is never any consensus. I think that is the beauty of this forum. Differing opinions are what drives everything here. I read them all, try a few, throw out most or them and form my own opinions. Audio is no different than automotive in that vein....there are fifty ways to get from 0-60 mph. We all choose our own route. . |
Agear, several truths drive me to my basic indifference to this thread. One, using a music server is far more convenient than playing cds or sacds. Two data that is repeatedly read off the optical drive and then replayed off that drive is more accurate than those read by a universal player's optical drive. Three, high definition copies are superior to low definition drives. There is more information and the digital filters apply at much higher frequencies. Four true DSD information goes through a different portion of the Sabre chip and sounds superior to PCM. Five, I think the old adage that bits are bits is ridiculous. Cabling has a major impact on what bits are received as does the accuracy of the clocks involved.
Finally, this thread is not different from any othersÂthere is never any consensus. Matt has satisfied his interests and had the good fortune to hear many units in his own room. Most of us don't even have a dealer where they might even hear one player. I was curious enough to see how this played out, but quickly lost interest as the logistics grew more complicated.
I will just go back to listening to well ripped cds played back in double DSD, as well as many sacds in DSD on my hard drive. I'm sure that you too were unaffected by this thread and will continue to enjoy your system. Good luck. |
08-22-14: Mapman
My turntable started to be mostly relegated to the sidelines when I started using old Roku Soundbridge to my current DACs a few years back prior to moving to Squeezebox. Now with nothing new happening with Squeezebox, I am forging ahead for now with PLEX. That has been my paradigm since 06. It does help he enduser bypass the computer silliness and the inherent Brownian motion of faux programing with nominal changes in SQ that would fail any good A+B test. I just got an Aries, and so far, so good. |
08-21-14: Tbg
Agear, I have continually wondered about the fundamental question in this thread, which frankly I think is absurd. Now with your new restatement, I can comment more. Tbg, I find you are spending more and more in the irritable professor mode as of late (going off on brain dead cyber students). :) My Dad was a prof and I come from a long line of profs so I am VERY familiar with said behavior. As I have stated before, the question is a rhetorical device or quasi-Socractic in nature to generate discussion. Taken literally, yes, the question is absurd. |
Agear --
My findings are the complete opposite, and can summarized in the following (by another author):
Ever since I mastered my first CD back in 1983 and compared what came back from the replication plants with the masters used to make those CDs, IÂve found that CDs from different plants (sometimes different lines within the same plant) all sound different from each other and none sounds indistinguishable from the master used to create it. This is true regardless of the CD player or transport used, regardless of price or design. To my ears, comparing playback from disc with playback of the master used to create said disc, there are always losses of focus and fine detail, sometimes subtle, other times not so subtle at all.
Interestingly, when those same CDs are ripped to computer as raw PCM files and then compared with the masters, all the differences go away. In other words, with playback of these files via a good server, for the first time in my experience, the user can have the sound of the CD master at home. So, the convenience of a music server not only does not exact a sonic price, the results actually sound better than playback from a disc player or transport. (It might not beat good vinyl playback in some ways but that is a subject for another day. And besides, what IÂve outlined above is only the beginning. Read on.)
...
https://soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/listening-to-tomorrow/
I have dialogued with Barry D. online. Good man and very knowledgable. He has a unique frame of reference that we don't have though with access to said masters, but I think burning a CD and then spitting out the master is obviously a little optimistic. |
My turntable started to be mostly relegated to the sidelines when I started using old Roku Soundbridge to my current DACs a few years back prior to moving to Squeezebox. Now with nothing new happening with Squeezebox, I am forging ahead for now with PLEX.
I still have two Roku Soundbridge devices around in original packaging that I do not use anymore. Sound quality of those even was top notch into my preferred DACs, very much like Squeezebox. ANyone interested in testing the waters on the cheap with those let me know. They and one of my two Squeezebox Touch devices are sitting unused today. They connect to built in Windows MEdia player on Windows (that is what I used them with mostly) and most other standards compliant music servers for .wav files. |
Foster_9, I was curious about that also, but I do think the BMC transport and the Oppo drives plus the Esoteric drives are also good; no where near the cds ripped to hard drives, however. |
Remember when CD spinners were a bust? It was not that long ago. They have gotten a LOT better just over the last 5 years. Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Audioengr Name some, always curious about the better sounding cd players. |
Mapman, that would hardly be "over the top" for me. I guess it is better than MP3. |
"what takes computer audio over the top as a source"
Now that's a more reasonable qustion for sure.
As a source to an existing home stereo system:
CD res or higher lossless files -> Music server->network connection-> network player->good DAC of your choice.
As a source for headphone listening where demand for amplification is much less, player software designed for good sound (I use PLEX) on a computer with just a decent built in DAC to just any decent pair of headphones. Even listening at work via internet connection to my music server at home, using headphone analog out, the sound is over the top in that I enjoy listening for extended periods. |
Agear, I have continually wondered about the fundamental question in this thread, which frankly I think is absurd. Now with your new restatement, I can comment more.
Does computer audio that digital over the top relative to vinyl something for which I have an opinion. No! I still greatly prefer vinyl, except for its great inconvenience. I was moving to prepare to put many of my 45 rpm reissues on the hard drive in double DSD, but have stopped as I suspect that I may get them that way directly off master tapes, although SONY is using a device that has many opamps which really are terrible.
Presently, I'm using a Mac Mini running JRiver MC19 out via USB to my dac that can play double DSD. USB and Firewire are the only outputs I have. With JRiver MC19, I can play cds in 44.1/16 on up to double DSD and the differences are striking.
I am told by a friend that single native DSD sounds better than double DSD but I'm not at all convinced that this is true. But double DSD through USB asynchronous is the best digital I've ever heard. High resolution is the wave of the future and I suspect there is no way to get such high definition is other than through downloads off the internet. |
In recent months, I have had several audio acquaintances return to CDPs claiming improved SQ versus their highly optimized computer transports (SS drives, external power supplies, etc, etc). Agear -- My findings are the complete opposite, and can summarized in the following (by another author): Ever since I mastered my first CD back in 1983 and compared what came back from the replication plants with the masters used to make those CDs, IÂve found that CDs from different plants (sometimes different lines within the same plant) all sound different from each other and none sounds indistinguishable from the master used to create it. This is true regardless of the CD player or transport used, regardless of price or design. To my ears, comparing playback from disc with playback of the master used to create said disc, there are always losses of focus and fine detail, sometimes subtle, other times not so subtle at all.
Interestingly, when those same CDs are ripped to computer as raw PCM files and then compared with the masters, all the differences go away. In other words, with playback of these files via a good server, for the first time in my experience, the user can have the sound of the CD master at home. So, the convenience of a music server not only does not exact a sonic price, the results actually sound better than playback from a disc player or transport. (It might not beat good vinyl playback in some ways but that is a subject for another day. And besides, what IÂve outlined above is only the beginning. Read on.)
... https://soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/listening-to-tomorrow/ |
Another way to ask the central question of the thread is "what takes computer audio over the top as a source"? What single tweak relegated your turntable to the sidelines? |
Agear, come on, I know better than that, I know many audiophiles that do not talk on the audiogon forums because they do not want to be bashed for what they own, I was warned about talking about some of my equipment, Agear, I'm a guppie compaired to some people I talk to with super systems right here in the u.s.a., and I know you are kidding anyway, cheers. |
labyrinth, your mad ramblings about Tara Labs would be better received in Asia. Spend some time on the Audioexotics site and you will see. That audio community always seems to be chasing the lunatic fringe (where cost is no object). Sadly, we in the US have become coupon cutters and deal seekers. Its just where the economy is. They are going up and we are going down. |
Agear, mmmm, that was some enjoyable posts, I can learn from you,I am being honest here, education is always the answer to all questions, what I learn, I may be able to share with others in this hobby, Would be nice to be an asset to many others in our hobby of extreme audio, thankyou, happy listening |
If you do not believe me, research all that you can about the Tara Labs Zero Gold with HFX grounding station and get back to me, likly, your tone will change with inverasment! Grounding does indeed make a difference. I have some of Mosaic Audio's (aka Dale Pitcher from Intuitive Design and Essence) reference cables and they have a grounding element as well. Tripoint audio has opened a lot of eyeballs in reference to grounding. It think it is particularly efficacious in regards to digital. That and power filtering whether it be batteries or a dedicated conditioner.... |
08-09-14: Twb2
I should add that the PC or Mac/DAC combo introduces variables that can result in inferior SQ. The Lumin eliminates these variable by combining the computer and the DAC in one housing, with the power supply in another, thereby eliminating the USB or other interface and clocking problems. The designer has total control of the results. Indeed. I actually looked at one. It does however take away some of your own control over SQ. I would rather have a dedicated digital transport and a DAC of my choosing.... |
08-09-14: Twb2
"Is computer Audio a Bust?"
Is this a serious question?? If so, the one asking is grossly uninformed and/or naive. No, just a rhetorical question to stimulate discussion. As you can see, some people do actually feel that way, and its still a valid opinion... |
08-09-14: Cerrot
Get a sound card. ESI juli@ for $149. Spdif out. All you need, plus a coax cable into your dac. That is an option, and one that the Alpha Berkley crowd runs with.... |
08-07-14: Bcgator
We've had this discussion with him in another thread, explaining that I'm getting great audio quality over USB, and to him this is all a fig newton of my imagination. He doesn't care if aliens from 5000 years into the future show up with some nanoo-nanoo technology that makes USB sound like angels caroling in your ears - he'll tell the aliens the same thing, "you aliens need to use SPDIF". The fact that, just for example, the Oppo BDP-105 (which I don't own, but may buy for a 2nd system) is getting rave upon rave reviews, including for its sound quality over USB (it has XMOS chip + asynch USB), has no bearing in Cerrot's thinking. To him, all those reviews are a USB conspiracy, not unlike the Loch Ness conspiracy. The ONLY thing USB should be used for, other than computer mice, is to put some marinara sauce on top and to be enjoyed with a nice Chianti. You get a gold star for using creative writing to rant.... BTW, while back in MN for a wedding, I heard a top dollar system fronted by Magico S5s that had as its digital source an Exemplar Audio modded Oppo 105. I brought a USB flash drive of music to use as test tracks, plugged it in, and it gave the Brinkmann turntable a run for its money. So yes, its a matter of IMPLEMENTATION. That aside, my system is without a dedicated digital transport at present, and I succumbed to using an unmodded Mini with a Belkin USB cable, and it sounded liked rat piss. I understand why the naysayers nay.... |
For everyone's reference, Lumin is at:
http://www.luminmusic.com/index.html
I did not find US prices on the site, but according to Mike Bovaird's review on Audioshark.org, the Lumin digital streaming player price in the USA is $7200.
G. |
There is more, The new two top level Tara labs interconnects, The Evolution Zero does 2 1/2 pico/farods per-foot, and the other Evolution Granmaster does 2 pico/farods a foot of capacitance, yes, I am going to the Evolution Zero, I am only mentioning this because of a comment on measurements, in the end, the measurements are interesting, However, the sound is the end game! |
