I just read a very interesting review of some cables by Steve Marsh at 6 moons.
I no longer feel all alone. |
But what if I change speakers?
If I were to upgrade to the CLX,which after owning Quads and CLS for years are high on my wish list, would these wires be the best choice?
Maybe something like Kubala would be the order of the day.
My ride on the cable merry go round was never in the big leagues, but I have heard what some of the better cables can do.
I have heard how the Sonus Strad can be made to sound even more like music less like a speaker when my friend moved up the siltech line.
If I had it to do it over I would spend for the best cabling and then upgrade components later.
I always felt a new amp or speaker would be the answer,when all along it was because the sound of the gear was being compromised by the cabling.
New amp, and six months later want another new amp.
The only things I kept constant were the cables, and that's what I should have changed.
Cables always seem to be suspect to claims of snake oil and price gouging, and I admit that's what kept me from playing with the big boys.
But when you hear what some of them can do with good gear not just great gear, it starts to make sense.
It's a great day when you can find some cables that don't cost a fortune that can improve your system and end the search. |
Lacee, at least you are off the cable merry-go-round and are done looking. Your cable journey is now over. Congrats! |
Perhaps I was a little too defensive,but I have a sore spot when it comes to questioning my intentions and experience.
I totally agree, assembling music reproducing systems is not rocket science.
It is more of an art.
Anyone who assembles a system using text book formula or flavour of the month components has no guarantee of achieving good sound either.
Some people never become musicians, some become very good at what they do, others are true artists.
It takes more than luck and more than just following the charts.
It takes hard work, skill, patience and a desire to strive for perfection.
To me that is what it takes to assemble a good(not expensive) sounding system.
You also have to have access to hearing a great many very good systems.Knowing what real instruments sound like up close and personal also helps big time.
You have to have evolved and matured in what sound you are going for.
Then you go about finding the pieces that work together that give you that sound.
It takes years and numerous "this is the last ....I will buy" trial and error combinations.
The more you are exposed to better gear the more you hear the limitations in your "best sound ever" component.
Your tastes evolve.
Not just in gear but in the reason we all got into this hobby, the music.
To me, it is when the components and in my case, the wires, just disappear.
The Clear day combination of balanced IC and speaker cable works in my system better than anything before it.
I am not naive to think that they can't be bettered.
That was someonelse's asumption.
There was a time when I thought my CLS 11z speakers were about the best sounding stats I had heard.
Then I heard another audiophiles Soundlab Ultimates, and realized I was nowhere near the sound they could provide.
Maybe ignorance is bliss.
I know it sure saves you money.
Recently I was also very impressed with the new Martin Logan CLX.
So if they are in my future maybe the Clear day cables won't do the things that they do on my Tannoys.
It is all mix and match, but it is nice to be able to bring a little continuity to the proceedings and ease the variable factor. |
Lacee, your last post should have come earlier. Your original post was benign enough and didn't warrant questioning your motives. Later posts made it seem like Clear Day was objectively head and shoulders above all other cables. Objectivity is likely impossible to find in this hobby, anyone feigning objectivity is opening themselves up to motive questioning.
Synergy and relativity are the only absolute rules in audio, all statements about 'can't be beat,' 'best design,' blah, blah, blah are a real turnoff!
I also find no inherent reason why using all cables from same manufacturer and/or design should sound better than any mix and match. Components are all mix and match (even if all from same manufacturer), ie. synergies are unique. Connecting all these unique sounding components together with exactly the same cabling will yield the same variable results as mixing and matching cables. Essentially, you cannot get invariable results from highly variable test subjects.
Putting together a system is not rocket science, in fact I doubt there is much or any science involved. Systems are put together based on how they make us feel music rather than objective sonic performance. |
I have no affiliation with clear day.
I live in Canada, and found out about clear day cables on this site in a cable thread.
There was alot of good words spread about Morrow and Speltz cables.But they aren't solid core silver.
I had been using Goertz fine silver speaker wire the type Gizmo used on his Tannoy's.
Yes there is something to be said about mix and match.
Seems like silver is a good match with Tannoys, and is used in a lot of amplifiers from Audio Note Japan and is the preferred choice of transformer wire.But I digress and once again have to prove my intentions are nothing more than to explain my experience with a run of wires from the same company.
What sets the clear day cables apart from other cables that I have used such as all Cardas Golden Hex 5c IC's and speaker wires, all canare wired, all Harmonic Tech pro silway and Shunyata ic and speaker wires is that the solid core silver wire in the speaker cable and the IC is exactly the same, not pairs of twisted cables of different guages and geometries as is the case with cables from other companies.
Could this consistency of construction be the reason why I find this combination to be the least intrusive cables I have owned?
I don't know.But as far as I know, no one else goes down this road other than clear day.
They are the least expensive run of wires that I have owned that get out of the way of the music and don't colour it as other cables I have used.
Maybe the clear day are coloured, but it's a colouration that suits my system better than other cables that I have used.
Like I said I haven't tried the Kubala, or synergistic or siltech(my friend loves them on his Sonus Faber Strad set up)or Cystal, Indra stealth... etc.
I can only relate my experience with cables that I have experience with.
If some find something sinister about that then perhaps they had better check under their beds at nite.
My intent of this post was to find out if others in this hobby have had similar experiences with cable synergy.
Not to stir a hornet's nest.
Leave that for those who feel all cables sound the same. |
There is something very odd about this thread. Now I'm back to believing Entrope's original diagnosis was correct. Lacee certainly hasn't denied any affiliation with Clear Day cables, and what started as a thread about cable synergy, meaning all cables from the same manufacturer, has now transpired into a thread where apparently only Clear Day cables can make this possible due to conductor size and strand count.
It's time to 'fess up Lacee. This can't be on the up and up.
Don't worry, you have not hurt my ego as a 'big boy crowd', my cables cost about $100 brand new.
Regarding your question as to why people feel the need to mix and match, you could ask that question of components too.
BTW, if cable synergy is that important to you, I would assume that you went 'full out'. By this I mean can I assume your components and speakers are internally wired with Clear Day cables? I've done this in the past too (not with Clear Day), but again, I wouldn't say there is one right answer. When I was enjoying it, I thought it was synergy, when I found something better, I thought that it wasn't.
Mix n' match? All one manufacturer? Stereo? HT? Mono? Vinyl? Digital? Planar? Electrostatic? Dynamic? Horn? Class A? SET? Push-pull? Class D?
Whatever currently floats your boat is the current right answer....but that doesn't mean that it will still be the right answer next year. ;D
Cheers,
John |
To me it was pretty much as clear as day to assume he did not have an affiliation with such brand. Silver wire is clear sounding for the most part and he found a good synergy by using the same guage wire. He just found a good balance. Not too many of us stay with the same sound for long periods of time and looking at what he has done in the past there will be change on the horizon. There are good budget cables out there and some may mop the floor with very reputable brands and there are some that perform to there price point. Clear Day could possibly be a good budget cable that can hang with some pricey cables. I use some budget cables that someone turned me on to from flea bay. In fact I use all their cables now. |
Your question could have been asked and answered without allusion to any particular brand.
Members here are a bit touchy about using this forum as an advertising platform and appreciate disclosure of distributor or vendor affiliation when a one brand is praised over another. It lets members know that the poster has a "dog in the fight" and that should be considered along with the opinion offered.
The pointed reference to a particular brand four times in your short original post does make us suffering audio-paranoia wonder. I note in all your follow up posts you never confirm or deny an affiliation with that brand.
Hmmmmm..... |
All power cords are Shunyata Annaconda Helix vx.
Dedicated 30 amp line into a Furman IT 1220.
A Hydra 2 for the power amps.
The last two( or the first two, depending on how you look at it)wires are my Ic and speaker wires,my speaker wires are soldered direct to the Tannoy crossover,but a captive wire of unknown quality takes the signal to the tweeter and woofer sections.
Cable debates go on forever, I'm not trying to change anyones mindset.
You believe what you believe and experience what you experience.
My experience is that the sound is more unified with the new cable runs,why this is so is just speculation on my part.But that's just human nature, trying to understand why.
But it is rather more common sense than theory to assume that if two wires are of identical contruction and material that they will share similar sonic characteristics.
More similar than cables made from unlike substances,designs and wire thicknesses.
In my universe I believe all cables have their own Sound,all wires have their own sonic characteristics.
To avoid all the sonic variables inherent in mix and match,it makes sense to me to keep as much of the wiring the same.
To rewire my whole system and hardwire everything with the same exact wire,from panel to driver would be the ultimate fruition of this. |
I don't know why the same gauge would be better or worse. Different things are happening when the signal passes through the components. It's not like the signal rides on the same gauge all the way through the system. It all changes flavor once it hits the first power cord. Uh oh did I just say power cord? Are these all the same gauge too? Who here does not think the power cord affects the power supply which in turn changes the flavor in the components signal? I think what Lacee is hearing is good synergy in his system with the same gauge wire. Nothing more and nothing less. Or maybe it just corrected a problem in a power cord or something. We have all been there in the combined tens of thousands of years experience in this hobby. I always chuckle, and have at my self, when coming up with theories in these forums. What theory works for some does not always work for others.
Good luck to all in there journey through cable theory. I know I am not done and never will be. Satisfied for a while but never done. Lets mix it up now! Now if I could only find that thread on impedence matching again. I just get lost in here sometimes. |
Maybe I should be more specific about what I am trying to describe and submit a theory I have about what I think is going on in my system.
A few years ago I used all Cardas Gold Hex 5c in a syatem composed or Sonic Frontier electronics and Mirage M3si speakers.Nice sound, but sometimes A different IC could change what I felt was too much of a good thing.
Later I had Atmasphere MP3 and S30 power amp driving stacked Quad 57's.I used a custom made Canare wire system, all balance XLR IC using Canare wire and Canare speaker wire.Again I felt the need to play around with wire as tone controls.
Another system with Martin Logan CLS11z,Classe DR 8 mono blocks, and Blue Circle BC3 Galatea mk11 pre and Shunyata Aries IC and Orion speaker wire.I felt the need to play around with different IC to tune the system.
The system that I have now is a pair of Tannoy Arden, Red Dragon power amps and Audio Aero cd/pre.
I use the Clear day balanced IC and their speaker wire.
The sound with the Clear day is more cohehrent than when I used the Shunyata or my Cardas Golden Ref IC.
Before I tried the Clear day IC I liked the extra crispness of the shunyata and other times I lked the darker tones of the Cardas.
Now on to my theory.
All the cables except the Clear day are constructed differently.The wire content and strand count is different from IC and speaker wires.
By that I mean that the Cardas IC use different guages of wire and purity and geometry than the Cardas speaker wire.
You can see that the speaker wire is much thicker.
It is the same story with most cable companies.
The IC and the speaker wire are not identical in construction, content or strand count.
The Clear Day IC is made from the same wire as the speaker.
Each solid core strand is identical in constuction and content.
This I feel, is why I think my system sounds more like it is one component than a series of components.
Yes I have substituted the Cardas and Shunyata and everytime I preferred the Clear day IC.
So IMOP, even if you are using all the cables from the same company,there is a lot of variation going on in the structure and content of those cables.
And if some think those things don't alter the sound of things, then why do people feel the need to mix and match? |
Well I used to be a firm believer in seasoning the taste of my system with mix and match cables.
The cables as tone control type that some here seem to feel is the path to sonic nirvana.
Been there, done that, have a box full of cables, cheap to expensive that I have collected in the 35 years at this hobby.
Are you surprised, did you think I was newbie?
Just to this site not to the hobby.
Got a moving coil cartridge that is tipped up in the treble?
Use some Cardas IC to tame it down.
Got a tape deck that is a little bland sounding? Spice it up and go with some PBJ and add some zip.
It is unfortunate that all components do not sound the same from system and room to room.
It would then be very easy to just wire the rig up with the cables that came in the box and be done with it.
As I am sure there are many in this site who laugh at all the ink spilled over cable debates.
The point that I was trying to make was that in my situation with the cables that I most recently tried,it was the first time that all the components jelled together.
I never felt the need to add more or less of anything.
I would probably say the same if I had a full set of Kubala Sosna, or Nordost.Maybe not.I would have to try those cables,as others would have to try my cables to really be able to express an opinion.
But I didn't have any of the really expensive above mentioned cables lying about. I just had the Clear Day.
It was reasonably priced and seemed to do the things in my system that the big boy cables are said to do in the big boy systems that I have read about.
If I bruised a few of the egos of the big boy crowd, sorry about that.
I hope I have "hammered home" my views about cable synergy and "nailed" it for those who didn't understand the first time around. |
I've never had luck with long term satisfaction with one cable brand from start to finish, even networked cables like MIT. I do have a preference with the preamp to amp connection and it is MIT 350 SG EVO. Everything else is fair game and it keeps things a little interesting too! |
Lacee, I went from Kimber 8TC, to Nordost Red Dawn & SPM, to Cardas Golden Reference and am currently using Speltz Anticable. Maybe it's not on this post but there are a lot of posts on audiogon in which folks are giving a thumbs up to Anticables, Blue Jeans and Motrrow to name a few. The price of a cable does not guarantee synergy in any system. I have found that synergy can also be gained by using cables made by different manufacturers. |
Lacee I feel for you fella, you got hammered. |
Well all that sounds great Lacee, and if you do not have a vested interest in Clear Day, it may even be moving. However, you do go on to state your lack of experience with mix and match vs. all of one brand cable, and I can say that I have had plenty of experiences with both scenerios. There is no difference....period.
Some cables work with some components, and some don't. In fact, whether a cable 'works' or not is dependent on room acoustics, ancillary equipment and personal tastes.
So, forget Clear Day, I don't know if the point you're trying to make is that one should use the same cable brand throughout ones system, but if it is, all I can say after 33 years in this hobby is that you are right.....unfortunately, you are also wrong.
Cheers,
John |
I don't see anyone here talking down your choice of Clear Day. You asked about cable synergy, got answers to that question. Now you do sound like a shill for Clear Day. |
I find it rather disturbing that it seems all right for some people to give cables from Cardas, Nordost, Siltech etc their endorsement, but it's not all right to say the same for a company that charges a reasonable price for their goods?
I have used a lot of cables over the years, from Cardas, Shunyata, Harmonic Tech,Blue Circle,MIT,Transparent to name a few.
All were good, all were more expensive than the Clear day.
Some systems were mix and match, Cardas IC and Blue Circle speaker and other combinations.
The Clear Day speaker wire was auditioned and it was a definite improvement to what I was using, the much praised and cheap Home depot wire.
I was using Shunyata Aries IC or Cardas Golden Ref from my cd player to my amp.
Good sound with either of them, but when I tried the Clear Day IC, everything pulled together.
Since I didn't have any Shunyata or Cardas golden ref speaker wire I only can state my experience with the Clear day pairing.
I would assume similar results however in a same brand pairing of IC and speaker wire.
The Clear day cable pairing has given me the most homogenous sound yet from my system,I like the tone the solid silver wire brings to my system that other cables at more cost failed to do.
Stranded wire cables have always had a fuzzines in the upper treble area that I never felt was worth the extra bass that they can deliver.
I would think that a forum is supposed to be about sharing experiences, both positive and negative and to stir interest to or avoidance of products one has hands on experience with.
If you haven't tried "a" how can you have an opinion? |
There are also many people that believe that all components should be from the same manufacturer!? There are no sure fire solutions. I agree with SNS, whatever works, works! |
mixing and matching can have great results but can also be expensive if not careful. one can voice their system by mixing and matching to their liking.i`ve mixed and matched ic`s to voice my system but found having all cables from the same company gives my system an overall better tonal balance. I am fan of Cardas Golden Reference and using all GR gave the system the `synergy` we all talk about. That being said I also use Kimber Select. The Kimber line has silver, hybrid(silver/copper) and the copper select. I mixed and matched all the Kimber line and found the all copper Kimber Select worked best in my system. I guess keeping all cable(s) the same will give the the best synergy and system performance. Most of all trust your ears. |
Yes, in my experience,especially power cords. |
No absolutes here, whatever works, works. |
Synergy, meaning all cables being the same, is only important if your preamp, source, and amp were all wire with the same wire....and the transformer to some extent. Why have all silver wire and a copper wound transformer...there is a lot of wire in there too. Since this is rarely the case, then the answer is easy to determine. The key is just to avoid cables with high capacitance, over 50pf/foot as a general rule, especially with long runs. The bottom line is use what works, even if it is cheap. Jallen |
Yes, it is important.
But hey, who cares? |
Entrope, good catch. The original post does come off smelling like a shill for Clear Day cables.
Just in case it is not though, I believe in cable synergy, but that doesn't necessarily mean all cables from one manufacturer. I've had success and failures when using all of one manufacturers cables and while mixing and matching.
It's a crapshoot. |
I don't think there is a more important factor in system setup than to omit as many variables as you can. ..that includes getting the amp, preamp, cd player, from the same manufacturer |
This sounds eerily similiar to a sales pitch.
Lacee are you a dealer or rep for these cables? |
Sepends on your system really. I've had success with the mix and match approach as well as with all cabling from the same family:O) |
I agree with foster,i think that they do work better in harmony(resistance?).Using az also,imho. |
In my opinion yes. There's nothing wrong with mixing and matching cables of course, however I prefer to use one brand for IC and speaker cable. I think this helps to achieve sonic balance in your system. (heard someone say that once and I agree!) I use Reality IC and speaker cables. I still have Acoustic Zen IC's and used to have their speaker cable too. |
