After having used a Gryphon Diablo 300 with my Thiel CS 3.7s for a year i was never really satisfied by the result.
I had quite a bit of harshness in the trebel and listening fatigue.
Lately i started looking for a much warmer and liquid sounding integrated and found a dealer demo Vitus SIA-025 Mk2 in Belgium.
The Vitus is in another league compared to te Diablo 300, it is so much more refined, laid back, sweet and very smooth.
In class A it also has more bass than the Diablo 300 this is pretty surprising.
I'm really happy to have pulled the trigger, the SIA-025 is a spectacular integrated that would equal much more expensive separates.
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Forgot to tell you guys that this sunday i'm doing a big shootout between my Gryphon Diablo 300 and the Audionet Humboldt integrated in my system.
This is going to be pretty spectacular!
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@yyzsantabarbara My Audience and Kubala dealer told me not to try the Audience Front Row because of lack of bass with this cable if paired with 3.7s.
He recommended me the Kubala Sensation which is much thicker.
I'm now demoing the Kubala Sensation SC and the Tellurium Q Statement IC in my system.
This combo is actually pretty good in my system, much more engaging and organic, smooth and liquid.
Tomorrow morning i will try the Tellurium Q Statement SC and see if it can outperfom the Kulaba Sensation SC.
Let you guys know.
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@thieliste I like my Audience FrontRow speaker cables with the CS3.7. I need to get a second set for my other CS3.7 amp. I cannot share between the amps due to SpeakOn termination that I had custom made. I knew I would never sell the speaker cable.
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Second recommendation of Luxman L-509x. It does indeed have the power needed to drive the 3.7's. Keep in mind that it's doubling its output in 4ohms and nearly doubles AGAIN into 2ohms.
For reference, I'm driving my Wilson Watt/Puppy 8's with a Luxman 590axii. It clearly outperformed a very expensive separate setup with ARC Ref75SE, PSA BHK pre (yes, tried the ARC Ref5, but the BHK was better). Should say something about the quality of the Luxman integrated amps...
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Hi guys, i'm still searching for the right SC and IC for my Thiel CS 3.7
Right now i'm really not happy about my Gryphon VIP SC and IC, they are way too clear in the trebel and too lean sounding with my speakers.
I really nead much more meat on the bone an better bass.
I'm in the process of auditioning cables and so far i got the best results with Cardas Clear Beyond SC and IC.
Yesterday i brought back Kubala Sosna Sensation SC to try out and today just received Tellurium Q Statement SC and IC.
Will make a shootout tomorrow and let you guys know.
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Sorry forgot to respond to you guys.
I ended up choosing the Gryphon Diablo 300 for my Thiel CS 3.7s.
Might upgrade in the coming years to tube linestage + stereo amp.
Meanwhile i have a very well balanced system.
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Ive got a spare KXR-Twenty Pre-Amp if anybody needs one. |
thieliste
Nice choice. I am leaning towards Ayre integrated or separates.
Happy Listening! |
The momentum has gotten so some great press and it looks like it can probably drive anything.....but then there's the price.....
the horror, the horror...... |
thieliste
best one i can think of is d'Agostino Momentum Integrated
Good choice for those current sucking CS3.7 beasts. The Ago's a bi-polar output amp, and will have the best current delivery, and that's what you need. Cheers George |
@jafant the best one i can think of is d'Agostino Momentum Integrated if i don't go separates.Did you find an amp to drive your Thiels ?
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thieliste
Have you found an Integrated amp or still auditioning?
Happy Listening! |
Hi Thieliste,
I hope all is well with you- I was just wondering what you decided to do and if you are happy with match for Thiel 3.7's.
As you might recall I also have Thiel 3.7's which I simply love and use daily. I am also looking for an upgrade to my current system and I have found this thread extremely interesting and helpful. My current set up is Pass XA 60.5's, Primaluna Dialogue premium (speaking of solid state . amplification combined with tube pre), moon audio 280d dac- cabling is Nortdost Heimdall 2 throughout.
System sounds great but I do think the Prima Luna may be the "bottleneck"....it is great but i suspect that the alps volume control holds it back a bit compared to higher end preamps.
I really like the Pass labs with the Thiels but I am not necessarily married to them if I had to change them in favor of better overall pre/amp combination. If I were to put my finger on what the system is missing it is a bit of depth to the soundstage and some smoothed over detail thus not managing to extract some of the finer spacial cues. As for the rest, the rig really produces an outstanding lateral soundstage with excellent solid imaging- the Thiel's completely disappear.
I also wrestled with the idea of a high end integrated or just going with a preamp upgrade. (Well, I am still wrestling with all of this.). In terms of the latter I have to always consider the right match for the Pass amps as their measured input impedance is 17k (20k stated single ended).
Suggestions have been to try a Pass preamp exploit system synergies but others have had better experiences with other alternatives (simaudio 740p with pass amps). If I were to stick to tubes others seem to think that a PS Audio BHK or an Aesthetix Calypso (Eclipse) might be great combo's.
SO i am kind of the same boat as you and wondering what to do- and therefore I am very interested in hearing what you ultimately decided to do.
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thieliste
how is your amp search? Have you auditioned the Vitus Audio or Audionet?
Happy Listening!
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Audiotroy, can you please describe the deference between T+A PV 3000 HV and T+A PV 3100 HV. Besides ability to add power supply, does PV3100 really sounds better or the difference in sound is very subtle? Thank you. |
I got some news from Vitus, they told me the SIA-030 integrated amp will be released end of this year and price will be €30K in Europe without the DAC option.
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The new Vitus SIA-030 class A might be something to explore also.Price will be pretty scary.
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Thieliste,
I own 3.7’s.Thiel rep told me something between 100 and 600 Watts,
That doesn’t limit current is what they recommended.Ive tried several amps (not integrated,sorry)with good results.Minor differences in sound I heard was very subjective!Im sure there is a lot of good choices out there!Just try to have fun in your search,and I bet you will find a good fit!I did think a class d amp gave me the best bass out of the 3.7’s.Good luck! |
If someone can describe me sound of the Vitus RI-100 or the newer RI-101 that would be a great help.It seems that there is no Vitus distributor in my country anymore.
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I have auditioned the Bel canto Black top of the line a couple of years ago on a pair of TAD compact Ref, very clean sounding but didn't blow me away for $55K.I think just under $20K there are many competitors that are more musical.The 4 integrated that i really have to audition before making a decision are the T+A PA 3100 HV, the Ghyphon Diablo 300, the Vitus RI-101 and the Pass Int-250.I'm sure one of these four will be a perfect match for my speakers.The difficult part will be to home demo each one of them knowing that not a single dealer carries all four brands where i live.
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@thieliste
The Bel Canto Black ACI 600 is on the cover of the April 2018 copy of Stereophile
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Whitecamaross was using the $55,000 TOL....like everything else he ditched it and found it fatiguing after awhile which he clearly states. Actually he changes his mind all the time if your paying attention so I'd trust your own ears before his or anyone else's.. |
@thieliste
The guy with the long A'Gon thread on the dozens of amps he is comparing, user Whitecross, mentions the Bel Canto gear, though I think it was the top of the line model. He was very positive on it.
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What do you guys think about the Bel Canto Black ACI 600 all in one.
Does it compete with much more expensive separates ?
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@audiotroy Dave, can you explain what you mean by "the same comments also apply to their gear." Thanks.
The T+A amp just went in system Tuesday afternoon, and is going through break in...I will report back (via another thread) on my findings after having about two weeks on the new amp.
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David Ten as a T plus A dealer the same comments also apply to their gear.
You may not be getting the PA 3100 to sound its best either.
We run our gear with Audio Magic power conditioners, Enklein cables with an Isotek syncro power cable on the Audio Magic the combo sounds amazing.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
The Hegel room at RMAF a number of years ago had 3.7s in it. I thought the combo sounded great. I had 2.4s at the time and it made me jealous. The Thiel room with the new (then) 2.7s, not so much. |
Anyone familiar with the Audionet Watt Integrated ?How does it compare to the T+A 3100 HV ?
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@thieliste You are welcome.
When I compared the Ypsilon Phaethon to the T+A PA 3100 HV, I really liked the Ypsilon integrated amp. Quite good, but different. I would have had to swap in tubes (not many choices) and possibly change cabling and (perhaps) other components to deliver the synergy and performance I want.
Essentially, I was contemplating bringing it to where the T+A already was (within my system)...and this finalized my choice.
Recently, a speaker cable change and a new power conditioner have made a Significant difference in how the Lyric Audio Ti140 Mk2 integrated amp and Pass Separates are performing. Had I THIS level of performance with the Pass gear and then with the Lyric, I probably would have stopped there. The Lyric Audio amp performance is especially remarkable.
I encourage you to try out different amplification components, realizing that system synergies are so important. All the best.
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My 2 favorite sources for this new system so far are Totaldac Seven and Aries Cerat Kassandra 2 Ref, but i'm also looking at more reasonable DACs like the PS Audio Directstream or the Aqua Formula.
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The T+A, Vitus, and Gryphon amps (not familiar with Luxman) are obviously all fantastic and will drive your speakers without breaking a sweat. At this level it comes down purely to personal taste and system synergy. If you can't hear all of them in person, read all the reviews you can and look for the one that matches best with the sound characteristics you are personally looking for and that are most important to you and choose that one. Frankly, I'd be shocked if you weren't absolutely thrilled by any of these, so fortunately for you going wrong has likely been removed as an option. Best of luck and let us know how it goes.
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Calvinj,
The T+A gear is magnificent, and in our tests has consistantly beaten everything we have compared it to including, Devialet, Thrax, Electrocompaniet, Conrad Johnson, and in field tests Krell MRA amplifiers and a $90k set of Boulders which were a tick better however, the T+A actually had a more flushed out bass and cost a lot less.
You not being blown away by the Magico setup is hard to know what was doing it, was it the room, the cables, the source components? Without switching out just the electronics it is impossible to know what is affecting what and in what way.
Theiliste, try out the T+A 3100 HV use a good power cord, and a good source components, let the unit warm up for a day and then see what you think.
It is definately one of the finest one box pieces on the market, what is really cool if you look at the $19k PA 3000 amp and the matching P 3000 preamp at $16k you will see the same amplfier power supply and circuitry, with a very similar board to the P 3000, in the 3100 integrated the power supply is more exotic in the separates but in reality you are getting very close performance for almost half the price, true separates in one box.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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@david_ten Thanks for your feedbacks on all of this gear that you were able to audition, i'm surprised you prefered the T+A 3100 over the Ypsilon Int, that does speak to me.
I'm a big fan of Ypsilon, last year i was fortunate enough to demo the PST-100 preamp and the Aelieus II Monoblocks in my system and was blown away but here we're talking €52K worth of gear.
Yesterday i spoke to the new T+A distributor who just got back from Munich and he told me the 3100 HV should retail for about €13K.
Anyway i might be able to compare the T+A 3100 HV and the Luxman L-509X at a dealer's.
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Heard t a with magico. Wasn’t a match wasn’t impressed |
I finally have a T+A distributor in my country since april 2018 so i will try to get in touch with him and see if it is possible to demo this gear.
The Luxman L-509X looks beautiful but i'm not sure it has the juice to drive properly Thiel 3.7s.
Thanks Dave for the information, your making me curious about this T+A brand lol
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@thieliste I agree with @audiotroy in his post above. The only way to truly determine what will work best for you, is to try the amps you are interested in, in your own system.
Early in this thread, I made the recommendation to consider T+A and specifically the PA 3000 HV, because used or demo units can be had for less than your budget and I believe they will deliver what you are looking for. Used or demo may be more difficult with the PA 3100 HV since it is a newly released component, and is likely to come in above your budget, even in used condition.
I recently went through a lengthy and thorough evaluation of a number of amps in my own system and the T+A PA 3100 HV was my clearly preferred choice over my Pass (separates), Lyric Audio, Mastersound, and Ypsilon integrated amps. A trip to NYC/NJ fell through which unfortunately meant I was unable to audition the Gryphon 300, Vitus SIA-025, and Grandinote Essenza integrated amps in dealer setups.
I also had the opportunity to listen to the Thiel CS 5i speakers driven by a mix of Ayre and Krell amplification in @dlcockrum 's system. Having heard these speakers in person makes me comfortable recommending the T+A amplification components for your CS 3.7s.
I also second @audiotroy 's description of the T+A components.
If you have specific questions, feel free to ask here or PM me.
All the best with your search. |
Theiliste, this is a hard question, these are all fantastic pieces amoung the best in the world.
T+A has a number of advantages over the other pieces if you are talking the PA 3100 aside from just the sound.
1: The T+A PA 3100 can come with a fantatic phono card which is a world class phono stage for $1,800.00
2: The T+A PA 3100 can also come with a unique room correction/eq card to tailor the sound to your room.
3: The T+A PA 3100 can be upgraded by adding an outboard power supply for even better performance.
4: IT HAS METERS! Who doesn't like a nice set of meters?
Sonically the T+A is a bit on the warm side, the Gryphon gear tends to be a bit darker sounding.
The Vitus gear to our ears also tends to be a bit on the darker side of neutral haven't heard the latest version.
The Gryphon and Vitus can have built in digital which is a big cost saving.
These are all exceptional products for the money that can challenge many of the best separate amp/preamp combos, the T+A PA 3100 is really the company's separate PA 3000 amp and Preamp in one chassis. The performance is very close.
Next step would be to audition in your home these pieces.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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yyzsantabarbera we know the Uber Luxman and we haven't tested it. The Luxman gear is very good, however, we sold the brand for years, liked it a bit better than the Hegel gear which we also sold.
The T+A 2500R is the most remarkable semi affordable integrated we have ever tested in the shop. Its combination of huge soundstage width and depth coupled with a very engaging and liquid midrange was something extraordinary not exhibited in many of these pieces.
Hegel gear is very good, but just slightly misses the more organic quality of the best gear, it could be something with the feed foward circuit design.
As with any of this gear you have to listen for yourself. We had some of the older 800 series Luxman pieces in and the T+A was in a different league.
The Luxman engineers take a more complicated design track then the T+A engineers. The Lucca volume circuit is quite complex, vs T+A traditional optical encoder opening up gas contact relays and individual resistors.
Luxman makes fantastic gear some of the best they just didn't seem to offer the same set of qualities of resolution plus liquidity we heard in the T+A gear, we would welcome the shootout.
It all comes down to what you value, these are all stellar pieces.
When we tested the T+A gear it bettered the Thrax gear, CJ gear, Devialet, and Electrcompaniet gear we compared it to. The T+A integrated was compared to Naim, Norma, Coda, Devialet, and Electcompaniet amps at the time.
Hope that clarifys our points.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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@audiotroy,
The Luxman I referenced is not the AX model you are describing. It is the brand new UBER Luxman integrated, Luxman L-509X. It is supposed to be a mix of the top of the line separates in a single chassis. Similar in goal as the T&A integrated.
I have learned that in audio price is not always a good barometer of quality.
BTW - read up what the Magico designers think of Hegel. I was a little surprised at how much respect they bestowed on Hegel. Soundstage.com has an interview with the designer talking about the new A3 speaker. He demoed with Hegel.
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Dave do you think the T+A HV 3100 will be more refined and have more magic with my CS 3.7 compared to the Diablo 300 and the Vitus RI-101 ? or is it a close call ?
Thanks,
Thieliste
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Carmenc,
Lets set a couple of points straight:
WE ARE NOT SELLING ANYTHING to the OP who lives in Europe
If you've read his posts Mr. Theilliste is all over the place on trying to figure out what would sound best on his Thiels.
He mentioned a budget of 10,000 Euro's with today's exchange rates would be around $12k-14k in equvilent dollars.
If this is the case you are not going to find better pieces newer pieces fitting in that price point. Sure you can buy a 3-5 year old tube preamp and a solid state amp like a used Krell or something or a newer amp built to a lesser price point like the Benchmark but then the issue is for X dollars will that combo sound as good as an uber integrated?
We are directly refuting your previous statement: I’ve owned Thiels in the past. I can tell you from firsthand experience that separates are the best way to proceed with Thiels. I’ve said this before; a tube preamp with a ss amp!
To which we wrote:
Carmnec your statement that you have to use separates is wrong, the uber integrated amplifiers, which include a $45,000.00 Dagastino, the $18k Gryphon Diablo 300,the $23k T+A HV 3100 series are three examples of uber integrated amplifiers that challenge, and outperform many separates.
If you read what we wrote the previous T+A model the HV 3000 at $18k was compared to $120k worth of Ch Precision gear WHICH ARE SEPARATES! and was found to sound nearly as good as those pieces read the article.
Carmenc,you expouse the same thinking that many people here do you start shopping for an affordable older used setup or start shopping at lesser priced amplifiers in order to fit the budget.
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@audiotroy ....I think you’re wrong, so it’s a stalemate. You just validated my point. That is; you don’t have to spend mega bucks on an integrated amp like the ones you mentioned. One can achieve a much better sound and synergy with Thiels using a high current amp and a tube preamp. You’re throwing out watts per channel numbers when current is more important with Thiels. I also spoke with Jim many times and they used mostly Krell and BAT. One of the best sounds I’ve ever heard from Thiels was with a Levinson 336 amp and Thiel cs2.4. You know what kind of amp and tube preamp you could buy for the ridiculous prices of the esoteric integrateds you mentioned!? Oh I almost forgot, you’re into sales of such.
You don’t need to remind me of the differences between Thiel and Vandersteen. Had lots of experience with both. So there you have it, just because you’re a dealer trying to sell your goods doesn’t mean I and others here are misguided. No offense but I’ll take JohnnyR ( @audioconnection ) advice about synergistic systems over yours any day. You don’t need to feel the need to lecture me like you do some others around here. You and I ain’t ever going to agree. I hope you spend as much time selling as you do posting here for your sake..... |
Carmnec your statement that you have to use separates is wrong, the uber integrated amplifiers, which include a $45,000.00 Dagastino, the $18k Gryphon Diablo 300,the $23k T+A HV 3100 series are three examples of uber integrated amplifiers that challenge, and outperform many separates. If you read what we wrote the previous T+A model the HV 3000 at $18k was compared to $120k worth of Ch Precision gear WHICH ARE SEPARATES! and was found to sound nearly as good as those pieces read the article. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ta-pa-3000-hv-and-mp-3000-hv/"After a Reality Check stage that, as noted, somewhat curbed my enthusiasm, I decided to set all that aside and listen afresh to the T+A combo playing either CDs or hi-res files via SPDIF. The sound, once more, just blew me away. I invited fellow TAS writer Karl Schuster to drop by and have a listen. He summed things up perfectly when he described the sound as “spooky good.” That spook factor stems from how eerily close these units come to the sound of far costlier Swiss gear. And that, I realized anew, is really the bottom line here. " Also in particular the T+A electronics are very warm sounding and were actually designed to mimic what a tube does, " Most notably, the “HV” in its model names indicates that these pieces run at an unusually high voltage. Whereas most solid-state amp electronics operate at about 100 volts internally, T+A gooses its HV units to a whopping 360 volts—roughly the range of tube gear. As in valve equipment, these voltages ensure that the amplification devices are working well within their operating parameters. Indeed, the HV models utilize only about 20 percent of their amplification transistors’ available range. This, in turn, greatly reduces non-linearities. The goal, says T+A, is to mate the naturalness of valves with the speed of solid-state. " Also in terms of practicallity a uber integrated amplifier takes up less space and only uses one power cord, as well as saving the cost $1k to ?? of a good interconnect cable. As per experience with Thiels, I used to work for Innovative Audio and actually SOLD Thiels, I don’t think Audio Connection ever sold Thiel, and what works for a Vandersteen does not work well for a Thiel, just because a speaker uses a first order slope means nothing. Thiel used mostly metal dome tweeters and metal coaxial midrange drivers, vs Vandy whose models used coated Aluminium tweeters and woven midrange drivers point is that other than both being time and phase aligned designs both these speakers sound totally different! Vandy’s always sounded warm while Thiels has a tendency to sound a bit cold and anaylitical Thiels benefitted from warmer electronics pairings while Vandy worked better with more neutral to brighter more detailed rigs such as Bryston amps, Ayre, or ARC.. By the Carmec I sold Vandy’s by the way as well, I used to work for SBS who sold Vandy, which included 1C, 2CE, 3, worked for Innovative who sold Thiel so actually we have experience with both brands. Also Camnec asisde from actually selling and setting up Thiels for years, I actually knew and talked with Jim Thiel. The other advantage of an uber class integrated is you know what it will sound like you don’t have the variability of having to use X brand preamp with Y brand amp. We would agree with you that a good tube preamp combined with a solid state amp was the traditional Thiel pairing, however, tube and tube sounded sometimes wonderful a popular Thiel pairing at Innovative was BAT VK 3i a clean and open less tuby sounding tube preamp with a Rotel solid state or Classe or even a VAC PA 100/100 tube amplifier. Carmec, your last statement; " Using an integrated amp with cs3.7 is like putting a trolling motor on a Scarab or Fountain imo." The T+A HV integrated puts out 300 watts into an 8ohm load and 500 watts into a 4ohm load, the R series integrated puts out 550 watts into a 1 ohm load and can easily drive a pair of Thiels. So your comments are completely misguided. Thielliste the combo you mentoned would be excellent as the Vac gear is really musical and tends to be on the warmer side of neutral and Mr. Dagastino’s newer amps are voiced a bit on the warmer side. with that being said I would still demo a T+A HV 3100 and a Gryphon Diablo 300 you might be shocked how much you would love the sound of these uber integrateds. We used to sell Luxman and the pure class A integrated amplifers smoked the Class A/B versions the 509 AX is an excellent integrated amp but may not be powerful enough for the big Theils. Also the Hegel integrated amplifiers are good but are not in this class of the uber integrated amplifiers level of performance. Carmec, your intentions are good, however, you can not speak of this kind of generality, in principle separates are usually better, with the class of uber integrated amplifiers you are not correct. An uber integrated may vastly outperform even very good separates. One of the posters here purchased a T+A integrated which blew away his Pass gear which were separates so it really does depend on what your experience is. Dave owner, Audio Doctor |
Since you mentioned 10K as your price point. I would also recommend the Benchmark AHB2 (3K USD each). Buy 2 of them and run in mono block mode. You will also need a preamp.
I have one of these amps in my office running in stereo mode and I am seriously considering buying 2 more of them when I get the KEF Bade. I think very highly of these amps. They are 380 watts in mono mode.
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Hegel integrated sounded very good with KEF Blade. Should also sound good with my second favorite speaker, Thiel CS 3.7. The Hegel separates were a little better with the Blades.. or the new Luxman integrated would be an interesting choice. It is supposed to be a little warm but detailed. https://www.whathifi.com/luxman/l-509x/review |
A couple years ago i got to hear the 3.7s with the Hegel integrated. Sound was great, it's what I would go for. |
thieliste
this one recently crossed my radar, Audia Flight, has very little representation here in the USA.Audia Flight FLS 10 Integrated.
Happy Listening!
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